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The night before Rain Reese died, her mom told her she was going to be an amazing teacher one day. A pill laced with fentanyl took Rain at just 19. Today, because of her mom, Rain is teaching kids across Oklahoma. Stay with me, because this is how she did it. She was, um, 19 and she was going to Cameron University to be a school teacher. She wanted to teach children. And so called me one night on a Friday night and was like, "Mom, I'm not doing good. Um, I really wanna get back into counseling and get back on medication." And I said, "Okay, Rain, I'll call on Monday whenever the offices open up and I'll see, you know, we'll get you back in." then she said, "Okay, I have an assignment due by midnight. I'll talk to you tomorrow." And I said, "Okay." And I j- before we hung up, I said, I love you, and God has big plans for your life, and you're gonna be an amazing teacher one day." And she said, "Thank you, Mom. I love you." And then the next morning, I got a call that they found her dead in bed with her schoolwork open on her computer, Welcome to Grieving Out Loud. I'm Angela Kennecke. Rain Reese was a 19-year-old college freshman from Lawton, Oklahoma, who dreamed of becoming a teacher. In May of 2023, she took a pill that she believed was Xanax. It was laced with fentanyl, and Rain never woke up. Her mom, Karla Carlock, could have retreated from the world after that. Instead, Karla has turned her grief into a mission. She walked the halls of the Oklahoma Capitol and shared Rain's story with lawmakers and even traveled to Washington, D.C. to stand behind the leaders who signed the HALT Fentanyl Act into law. In February of 2026, her persistence paid off. Oklahoma's governor signed Rain's Law, which requires school to teach students in grades six through 12 about the dangers of fentanyl. Every year, kids across Oklahoma will learn how a single counterfeit pill can be deadly, all because of Rain. And I do understand what it means to lose a daughter to fentanyl poisoning and to try to find meaning in the pain, and that is why I'm so honored to welcome Karla to the show today. Karla, thank you so much for being here and for all the hard work you've done in Rain's honor. Thank, thank you for having me Oh, you're so welcome. I know this, in October you had an anniversary, those anniversaries that we all dread. How are you doing today? Um, well it would, it was actually Rain's birthday in October and just sh- like you said, those, the birthdays, the angelversaries, all those are just holidays that are coming up, it's hard. Um, I'm here but, um, you know, with, think just the fact that Thanksgiving and Christmas is coming up, it always, It always just kind of feels a lot heavier It certainly does, yeah. I think, and it always will in a way as well. Um, I'm a few years, my daughter died in 2018 of fentanyl poisoning, and I, like you, have been just single-mindedly trying to get kids educated about the dangers of fentanyl. Tell me where your idea came from to go to lawmakers in Oklahoma and how that all came about Well, um, with Rain, I guess I've told you, um, when we talked earlier, but sh- we were a military family and Yeah. we- that, that's fine. Give me a little background about Rain Look, she was yeah, that's kind of how it, um, it kinda started as far as like, it's… I don't know, I just-- To get it to-- I gotta put it together just so I can kind of explain it. But, um, moved around a lot and, she kinda struggled with depression and anxiety, and first, when she was younger, she didn't. She loved the frequent moving, like it was neat to go meet new friends, go to new places. But the older she got, it was more difficult for her to adjust. Um, we never really had a lot of stability, especially her high school years, um, is where she began to struggle. And so, um, she was in counseling, was on medication, and I thought she was doing well. But, um, whenever she went off to college, she was, um, 19 and she was going to Cameron University to be a school teacher. She wanted to teach children. And so called me one night on a Friday night and was like, "Mom, I'm not doing good. Um, I really wanna get back into counseling and get back on medication." And I said, "Okay, Rain, I'll call on Monday whenever the offices open up and I'll see, you know, we'll get you back in." then she said, "Okay, I have an assignment due by midnight. I'll talk to you tomorrow." And I said, "Okay." And I j- before we hung up, I said, I love you, and God has big plans for your life, and you're gonna be an amazing teacher one day." And she said, "Thank you, Mom. I love you." And then the next morning, I got a call that they found her dead in bed with her schoolwork open on her computer, and her dog beside her in bed. And, um, I didn't know what had happened. I was with myself, and I, and I still deal with so much guilt of like what if, but I had told her, "You're gonna be a great teacher one day." And I'm like, "God, she's never gonna teach. Like, she's gone. I lied to my child." And so, um, I had found out that she passed away from a Xanax laced with fentanyl. Uh, I have a question about that, Karla. How quickly did you find that out? It took about three months. So at first I thought, "Well, did she have a heart issue? Was there, like, a health problem I wasn't aware of?" Such a shock. I mean, it's such a shock because you would have no way of knowing if she wasn't a regular user, you, you didn't think she was regularly using any kind of illicit drug. Um, and I know what she thought she got, she thought she was getting a Xanax. Right. And so when we got the autopsy back, it said she passed away from a Xanax laced with fentanyl. And so I'm like, "What?" And so we start going through her belongings, and we found out that night she googled,"What does a generic Xanax. look like?" And so it just-- When I found out it was fentanyl, I started, like, doing as much research as I could, and I realized how many families were in the, the same position, their kids thought they were taking one thing, and it was something else. And Угу it, it-- The number so high, like, as you know, that it's like there should've been a COVID-like response. So Right. it's just like the amount of kids dying, it's like, why is this not everywhere? the reason it's not everywhere is because of the stigma surrounding any kind of drug or substance use, right? I think I always show, when I talk to people, a crashed jetliner, and I say, "If an airplane was falling out of the sky every single day with around 200 people on it and they were all dying, we'd be calling, pulling out all the stops. We'd be doing everything in our power to stop it." But we're not be- in this crisis because, I believe, of the stigma that surrounds the fact and so many people think, "Oh, that was just their choice." Well, our kids didn't choose to die Mm-hmm. You're exactly Right And, and the thing is, it's like I wanna say to them, even if it was someone struggling with addiction and it was a long history or someone that tried it one time and they died, they were still poisoned and their life mattered. And it's like with… If you-- As you know, if you take something that has fentanyl in it and you happen to live, more than likely you're gonna be addicted. It's gonna destroy your life either way, so it's just-- Right so destructive. It's, um, and it's so important. But, um, I started looking into what I could do, and I saw that other families in other states had gotten some education bills passed, especially Texas. I have a friend there who got a law passed. And so I was like, "You know, um, we need to do that here." And I met other families here that had the same idea, and there was another dad named Joe, and he had been trying to do it for a couple years and just felt like giving up 'cause he wasn't really getting anywhere. So we met, we talked, and so we went together to meet with lawmakers. And then all of a sudden it's like, okay, I, I told Rain she's gonna be a great teacher one day. Um, and I felt like I'd lied to her, right? So I'm like, when this law passed, I'm like, "Well, maybe I didn't lie to her," because it's now requiring fentanyl education in grades six through twelve, and it's called Rain's Law, so she's teaching, just in a different way. She may not be Her- but kids that- chance to live that's really a significant contribution that she has made posthumously that honors her life and is so important. And when you think about the number of students who will make a different choice because of her and because of the work you did in her name, I think that's an incredible, incredible tribute, and it says so much about you and your love for her. That, that's what I always try to tell people, this work I do in Emily's name, it, it really is my love song to my daughter. I, I don't sing, and, and people would never want me to 'cause I'm not good at it. But I really feel like this is the way I honor a child who should have had a chance to live were it not for fentanyl. And my daughter was, your daughter was struggling with mental he- mental health and addiction go hand-in-hand, right? My daughter was struggling. We knew she was using something. We didn't know what. We were planning an intervention. We were three days away from holding an… We sh- and y- and your daughter was struggling with mental health. We should have been able to get our children the help that they needed if it weren't for fentanyl. And so to try to save other children in their names, to try to educate kids, I think is the best thing we can do. It's a positive thing out of something that is so devastating Mm-hmm. That's so true. And, um, you know, sure you have this happen, like you'll get on Facebook and you'll have memories pop up of like your kids, and Mhm it's so difficult because, um, we see what they should be doing that they're never gonna get the chance to do. And Right I remember like, um, on Raines, um, I c- I can't believe this actually, now that I, um, Facebook reminded me of this, but exactly one year after her high school graduation was her funeral to the date. And I'm like, said on that post, like, "God, I can't wait to see what you're doing in her life," you know? And one year later she's, she's having a funeral, and it's like I ne- just like you, it's like, um, we never want another parent to be in this position because it literally changes your whole life. It's like your whole world is shattered. You're, you're living without a piece of your heart for the rest of your life. And it's like you, if you have other kids, they not only lost a sibling, but they lost their mother, the mother they once knew,'cause you're never the same. Right like, you said, that love that we have, um, it didn't die with them. And so love never dies, so we have to find a way to share that love and to give it and to keep it alive, and I feel like that's kind of all we can do with this grief, you know? Right. Grief really is love with no place to go. And I always say with our support group of parents who are in the same boat that we are, we give it a place here. And we gave it, we're giving it a place in our advocacy work, and I, and I love that you went to the state of Oklahoma. Did you have resistance to this law or was it relatively easy to pass? We didn't really have resistance with the law. There was a, um… Like it, it passed unanimously both the House and the Senate. But the thing is, like, we do have a floor leader that decides what bills are heard, the first session she didn't hear it.

And I'm like: 12:37

Oh, my gosh. Like, why did you-- This is so important. So I kept, um-- Well, we had it to be like… Okay, so the next session if, if it didn't get heard, we'd have to start all over again. I don't know if I even have the strength to do this. But, so I kept going to the floor leader's office, and I would bring like, um… I brought cookies from Tiff Treats. I would bring cards with why this bill is so important, why the, um, this law is needed in schools. I would talk. I would just continuously put myself there so she wouldn't, you know, almost like she would not re-- forget who I am, so she

could be like: 13:15

"Okay, this lady is driving me nuts. I'm gonna make sure we hear this bill." But, um, she-- I got a call from the senator that was the author

on the bill, and he's like: 13:24

"Um, hey, she's-- they're gonna hear-- they're gonna vote on it." And I said: "Oh, awesome." So they ended up voting on it, and it passed unanimously. But like I said, almost didn't hear it, and so that's the part that was hard and I, I don't know why, like, it, it took so long because to me, there's no price on a child's life. But, um, I have noticed it's hard to get into schools, though. Even though the law is passed, been kinda getting resistance, especially from the larger school districts.

They'll say, um: 13:53

"Oh, well, we're gonna have a teacher, um, talk about these things," or… like: Well, why? They don't have a connection to fentanyl. It's gonna be like a check-the-block, and it's not gonna be effective Yeah, that was my next question for you. W- w- were there any funds appropriated as part of this law so the schools could afford to bring in a prevention specialist, purchase curriculum like our Emily's Hope substance use prevention curriculum? Were any funds allocated for the, for carrying out this law for schools? No, there's, there were no funds for the bill, but what they're doing now is they can apply for grants, and Mm. um, Oklahoma Board of Education website, there's supposed to be resources listed for schools to go and use, and really nothing on there except for some slides they threw together. But, um, know that there's like a window where people can go on there and put evidence-based curriculum. um, the schools, I guess, can apply for these grants to use. But right now there's just really… I feel like they're scrambling 'cause they're, it's a new law, and they weren't prepared for it. And so it's kind of we're just seeing what's happening. Um, I've had some schools reach out to me and ask about it, but as far as like… So we, I've said, "Well, hey, can we come in and have some parents talk?" Because there's, have grieving moms and dads in this state Sure. that, enjoy sharing their child's story because you-- like, I'm sure you understand, like counseling never really helped me, but knowing that I'm helping someone else has been the Yes. that has been helpful to me. And I, and I think a lot of families feel that way. Ja And so it's almost therapeutic for the parents to do this. Like, and then the kids realize, hey, this is real. It can happen to us. But when you have a teacher just like kinda talking about it, they might mean well, but it won't be as impactful as someone that's actually lived through it. And so, yeah. Right. And when I go and tell Emily's story in assemblies to schools and presentations, the kids listen. And, and I've only had one disruptive audience out of like, I've been doing this since 2019, Karla, and I've talked to tens of thousands of students. And those students do really pay attention when they see kids their age who have died, um, and their stories being told. And I think that is so important and one way to educate kids. But I also, what we have found in our research is that you have to start at a young age. And so we start in kindergarten with our Emily's Hope substance use prevention lessons, talking about your big emotions and who's a trusted adult, medication versus candy, age-appropriate things that gradually build up into lessons. We're in third grade, we tell kids about that fentanyl is out there and what it is, and we talk about the brain and the body and all of these things. And, um, I have been so committed to this, and I really want every school in the nation to have it. But it's been, it takes years. I mean, it's taken us years, um, to become evidence-based. It's taken us years to get schools to take the curriculum, to get the funding for the curriculum, all of these things. And so, like you, I have felt since the day my daughter died that this is an urgent, pressing issue that everybody needs to be paying attention to, but it's hard. I think our society, people are competing. There's so much competing for your attention, and there's so much going on, and there's so much bad going on in the world, right? And so I think this danger, this real and present danger, and it's only getting worse with cycloraphene and nitazenes and all of these other analogs and substances. This danger is being ignored almost, and, and I-- that frustrates. That's frustrating Oh, it absolutely is. And I love that you have made a curriculum for the younger kids. It's so important, like you said. It's ne- they're never young enough to, to learn, I think it's great you guys do that. I, I wish every state would have that. I think it should be nationwide. I would love to see what we could do to get that in Oklahoma because I think the kids need it. I definitely we are K through 12, so 6 through 12. It needs to yeah, 12. whole time, the whole school. And, and it's not that it has to be, it just has to be part of the curriculum, right? It doesn't have to be-- We're a supplemental curriculum, so it doesn't have to be, um, some long, drawn out thing. But le- let's be teaching kids at every stage along the way. Prevention saves so much money compared to when you're treating people, um, on the back end for substance use disorder. I mean, you save so much money, and not only that, but I think about the lives that are lost in this, uh, overdose and fentanyl poisoning crisis, and I think all the potential that we've lost. That always hits me right in the heart. Like, Rain would've been a teacher. Emily was an artist. I have other parents whose children were musical and would've been entrepreneurs and, you know, it's just, it's so sad to me that we can't get the attention that we need focused on solving this issue No, you're ex- exactly right. Like, I'm in this room right now, I have, I have all of Rain's paintings on the wall, and it's Oh all these children that lost their life, it's like they coulda changed the world, you know? They, their lives mattered, and they were so creative and, and I think I talked to you about this before, but it seems like the ones that, that feel so much and that are empathetic and just artistic and just love so deeply, which really the world needs some more love, but they're the ones that have lost, you know, so many of them have lost their life. And world is full of so much hate, and just to lo- lose people that were loving and creative that could've made a difference, it- it's so And I'll never understand why, but all I can do is try to, like you said, take that love that we have for them and give it and help someone else Stay with us, because when we come back, Carla opens up about the hateful comments that nearly made her stop sharing Rain's story and what she believes Rain would tell her to do. She also shares a realization she plans to write down and keep close on her hardest days. In the meantime, if you'd like to learn more about the Emily's Hope K through 12 substance use prevention curriculum, you'll find details at emilyshope.charity, and we've shared a link in the show notes. While you're there, please take just a moment to rate and review Grieving Out Loud and share it with someone who you know needs to hear it. The more we spread the word, the more lives we can protect from an overdose crisis that takes tens of thousands of Americans every year. Together, we can make a difference. Are you ready to protect the next generation from the dangers of substance use? Emily's Hope has created a comprehensive K through 12 substance use prevention curriculum designed to educate, empower, and equip students with the tools they need to make healthy choices. Our age-appropriate lessons start in kindergarten and build through high school using science, real stories, and interactive learning to help kids understand their bodies, brains, and risk of drug use. We're already reaching thousands of students across multiple states, and we're just getting started. Visit emilyshopeedu.org to learn more, and share our curriculum with your school administrators and counselors. At Emily's Hope, we believe prevention begins with education. Let's work together to keep our kids safe. For the past seven years on this podcast, I have talked to parent after parent who describe their child in the same way as Rain, as Emily. Sensitive, gifted in many areas oftentimes. Could be music, could be art, they could be… Did she love animals? she… In fact, the memorials went to the Humane Society after her death. So she, and she would do, um, birthday parties to fundraise for the Humane Society and yes. And so I think, I often think that, like, the reason our kids turn to a pill or a substance or whatever is because the world is so harsh for sensitive people. It's so harsh. And in today's world and everything that's going on in social media and… I, I don't know. It's just, it's, it's a hard problem to solve, but prevention is, is one big huge part of it. I always say there's, there's three legs to this stool. There's prevention, law enforcement stopping these substances from coming in, and we know that's a complicated issue. It's not just a one-and-done issue. And also, then of course treatment for people who are suffering. Treatment and recovery. So, um, you know, we're talking about that education piece, we're talking about prevention, but that is where I think the real hope lies Yeah. That, that's so true. And I will say, um, I'm sure you've seen this, but, like, I had actually stopped for a little bit sharing Rain's story because I'll see hateful comments online that my heart really couldn't handle. Like you said, um, "Well, they shouldn't have been doing drugs. It's their fault," and all that other kind of stuff. And almost wanted to stop, and I just felt like, um, what would Rain do? Rain would say, "Mom, it doesn't matter. Don't listen to them. If, if my life and my-- you losing me could help save someone else, then you keep sharing no matter what they say." And so I have to remind myself of that because I know she'd want me to share her story and ignore, like, the hateful comments. It's just so hard 'cause you wanna protect your children and even in death. But it's like people are-- don't understand, like, this can happen to you. Mhm people online are-- there, there's always hateful people, and it's just, um, a lot of times it's because they don't know. They don't realize that how easily this can affect somebody. And, um, it's just-- I don't know. I feel like a lot of parents deal with that, and it's like these comments that people post online are just so hateful and-- But I just have to try to ignore it, not read comments anymore Right. That is a hard part for everybody, I think. And I had all this training because I was in the media for more than three decades. And when I started date myself here, pe- we didn't have the internet, right? We didn't have social media. Maybe the- we did have the internet. We probably had, like, Hotmail, you know. But we didn't have, um, social media, and so people would have to call the station to complain, or they'd have to write letters. And I got calls, I got letters, I got postcards with people saying nasty things. But it wasn't as, um, prevalent, right?'Cause that takes effort. That takes effort to pick up a phone and call, and you kind of… people, somebody might know who you are. And then as social media came out and the, the, the, oh, just the awful comments, the hatred, like you said. And, and I feel like I started to build up this really thick skin and, because I know what, I know, you know, my reporting was honest, and I know that, um, it was fair. And I had to go through a lot of checks and balances. But the, the, the, the hatred. And so then when it was turned on me after I lost Emily and shared her story, and I was told I was a horrible mother. But you know what, Karla? It was, like, .5, .05 or 1% of the comments, right? Like, everybody else is supportive, but it's the negative that always stands out in our minds. Yes something once like you have to have five positive comments to overcome one negative comment, and I think that's so true because we, we, we… that negative, it just, oh, it just hits you, and you're, you're like, "Oh my God," like, "How can somebody say something like that or even think that?" Um, but I think a lot of times people that are doing that kind of thing, they're coming from a place of their own pain, and they're, maybe they had a parent who struggled with addiction and, and they're bitter and angry. Or I don't, I don't know what it is, but I always think that is not about us. It is not about me or you or our daughters. But it is something I used to tell people when I would do stories with people, "Do not read the comments. Please don't read the comments." But it's har- it's easier said than done Yeah. No, you're right. You're-- That makes a lot of sense. Yeah But I think as parents, we feel so much responsibility and, like you talked about, guilt, uh, or lying to her. I don't think you lied to her. I think you told her your hope and your dream for her. I don't think that was a lie. But I think we already internalize everything and we think, "Oh, what could we have done differently? How should we have done things differently?" And we do that, and so then when those negative comments come,"Oh, I, I was wrong," right? Like, I'm to blame somehow even though nothing could be further th- from the truth. I always tell parents, even if, even if you could've done A, B, or C, this still could've happened. You know? Even if… I mean, and, and I think it's also very beautiful when I was listening to you talk about your conversation with Rain, is that your last words to each other were, "I love you." I have that with my daughter, too. Our last words to each other by text, in a card, um, were,"I love you." And, and I'm so grateful for that because it could've been very different No, and that's a, that's a good way to look at it, and I never have actually thought about that before 'cause I always focus on the bad. Like, I'm mad at myself or the guilt. The guilt is just so overwhelming sometimes because I think as parents, like when your kids are growing up, you… Everybody's busy. You're always rushing, you don't really take time to stop and enjoy even the hard moments 'cause, as you know, we'd probably give anything to have the hard moments back. Mhm, mhm. like I just I wish I would've, like, put my phone down more or taken the time instead of been busy to really just sit with her, take more pictures, and it's like you just always think you're gonna have more time, and you can't ever get time back. And so that's hard. Like, um, I remember the last time I saw her. When she drove away, I didn't know that was gonna be the last time I hugged her and saw her drive away. And I remember her asking me, "Hey, Mom, are you gonna come up here this weekend?" And I said, "No, I'm not gonna come this weekend. I'm tired." You know? So I, I get mad at myself because I should've gone up there, but I didn't wanna drive six hours, um, to where she was at, at in school. So I feel like, um, that those what-ifs and the guilt, even though we might tell our friends, "Hey, don't let that bother you," as a mom, it's How you would treat a friend is much different than what you would say to yourself Yeah. it's so hard, and I, I just feel like we're our own worst critic and that guilt will always be there because we'll always have those what-ifs. But I have to try not to allow myself to dwell on it too much 'cause it can really just eat you. It just… It's, it's painful Karla, my hope for you is that your guilt will not always be there. My hope for you is that you will find some peace in, in that and some forgiveness and kindness to yourself because I, I… a little bit further out than you in, in the amount of time that has passed since Emily died, and I go back to, um, I had to have her leave my house because she was acting out and taking off, and I had younger kids at home, and I, I was like, "If you're gonna do these behaviors, you can't live here," after she turned 18. And I regretted that so much. I was like, "Maybe if I hadn't done that one thing, she would be- have been okay, and this wouldn't have happened." But I have come to the point where I realize that I could have done everything and anything in the world, and this still could have happened. And we could have gotten her into treatment. We were three days away from getting her- out of bed for her and everything, and she could have gotten out and taken something and still died. And so really, I think you have to, um, find that forgiveness for yourself and treat yourself like the, like a cherished loved one or friend. Um, so my hope for you is that you don't always have to carry that with you and that you can be proud of all of this work you did. I mean, look what you did. You didn't have to do any of that. I know parents who shut down, didn't do anything. Their lives basically ended after the loss of a child, and you have done so much to help others that m- my hope is that you can see all that and, and feel better about it Thank you. I feel like what you said, though, I'm gonna try-- I'm gonna write that down'cause I have to write things down sometimes. But that the last thing we said was I love you. You know, I want… I need to remind myself of that because that is important. I know I've talked to people that have told me that they were arguing with their child before, they passed away, and her and I weren't arguing, you know. So I just have to try to focus on that. So thanks for sharing that. I'm gonna write, at least write that down so whenever I am having one of those moments, I can look it back-- look at that and just remember that was our last conversation That's the other thing that I, I would say, I was gonna say, is that she knew that you loved her, and you knew she loved you. And that is so important. If we just get that, um, we, we really can't ask for anything more, I think. No, that is, I, that's true. Like, I always tell myself, I do know she knows how much I love her, and, um, I just hope that, like, when I see her again, that I'm still her mom in heaven and that she, it, you know, that she's just proud and knows how much I tried. And you know, like, it's, some days are harder than others. Um, but I want her to know that I tried to keep her love alive, and I tried my hardest to still be here. And so I just, I hope that when I get to heaven, she knows all those things Have you lost a loved one to overdose or fentanyl poisoning? I'd like to invite you to share their story on our new Emily's Hope Memorial website called More Than Just a Number. They were our children, siblings, cousins, husbands, wives, aunts, uncles, and friends. So much more than just a number. You can submit a memorial today on morethanjustanumber.org. And how are Rain's siblings doing? How many other kids do you have? I have three other kids. Um, I always feel bad for them too. Like I told you, I feel like they lost their mom. Um, but-- And my, my 17-year-old did tell me that one time about a year after Rain passed away, she said, "Not only did I lose my sister, but I lost my mom." And I felt horrible. she said, "But Mom, I'd rather have the broken version of you than not have you at all." And then, um, now when we talk she says, you know, "Mom, I know you're trying." And so she knows. Um, I think the older… my oldest daughter, it's harder for her, and what-- I don't know if, um… this hasn't happened yet, but she turns 18 this month, and so the fact that she's almost… She'll be Rain's age, like the n- like Rain was f- her older sister, but Rain was 19, and so I'm struggling with that, and I, I was talking to her about that and, um, she's like, "Mom, she's always gonna be my big sister, you know, no matter what." But that's kind of hard to know that she's approaching the age that I lost Rain. Have you had to deal with that Yes, because yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. When my other kids turned 21, I felt like, 'cause Emily died at 21, and I felt like, and they're now 24, 25, and 26. And, um, when I, when they turned 21, I was like, "Oh my God," like, "This is the age Emily died." And then when Adam turned 22, my son, he said to me, "Mom, I've lived longer than Emily lived." And I was just like, yeah, it just hits you. It hits you, and it's, it's just something that you go through and your kids go through. And my daughter right afterwards, right after Emily's death, felt like she shouldn't really leave for college. I've talked to other kids who felt like they couldn't really leave their parents, and I insisted that she go. I'm like, "No, no, I'm not holding you back. Um, you have to live your life, and your life is different, right? It's different than your sister's. It's different than mine." Um, but I've had my kids on the podcast, too, to talk about how… And I had them on years later, Karla, years. Like six years after their sister's death as when they were adults. And it was so interesting how they articulated everything that they went through and their own grief. And my daughter is more introverted. She didn't talk as much as her brother, but it was, I think the work that you've done in Rain's name, you'll find helps your kids heal. Because the work I've done in Emily's name and the work that they've done alongside me, like my daughter's an animator-illustrator, and she helped with the curriculum. My son has helped with the charity, with fundraising, and different things like that. That really helped them, and it helped take away, I think at first they felt like that her death was so s- filled with so much stigma."Oh, my sister died of drugs," you know? And, um, they were really embarrassed by, some of them were embarrassed by that. And so there's a lot, it's like a bomb going off in a family, and the whole family A while back, I sat down with my own children, Abby and Adam, to talk about losing their sister Emily. Here's a moment from that conversation when Adam, who was just 16 when Emily died, describes how his grief has changed as he's grown up. You'll find a link to the full episode, along with a few others we think you'll find helpful, in the show notes. Do you think your grief was different when you were 16 and 17 than it is now at 23 and 24? I would say yes. I think the first couple of years it was a lot more of frustration, and it was just me being kind of mad at whether it be the world or, like, God or, or people involved with, like, in Emily's life who helped contribute to her addiction. And also, the grief was a lot more occurrence. It would happen, like, at least, like, once a week I would think about it and kind of fall into that, like, emotional trap. But now, I think pretty much all of the frustration is gone and the confusion is kinda gone. I, I, I fully understand now kinda what happened, but for me it's now just trying to make her proud and just trying to live on her legacy, and, and just be the best man I can be. And, you know, eventually, like, grow a family, and I can tell them about Emily and her story. And yeah, it's, it's interesting to see the transformation in, like, a six-year span, but I also understand that I'm, like, 22 right now. I'm still growing and learning a lot, and I think my grief is gonna continue to evolve even more over the next couple of years as well. Do you think it will always be with you, that grief? Oh, yeah, 100%. 100%. I mean, a day doesn't go by where I don't think of Emily. And then the grief itself, it's like a roller coaster. It just comes at super random moments, and super random surges of sadness and, you know, prior frustration. And it's not like the frustration is fully gone, but it's definitely more tamed, and I, I'm just older, more mature. I understand it better. How about you, Abby? How has the grief maybe changed over the years? Kind of think I'm more at peace with it the longer time stretches. And you can hear my full conversation with Abby and Adam through the show notes or at emilyshope.charity. On our website, you'll also find hundreds of past Grieving Out Loud episodes, information about our substance use prevention curriculum and treatment scholarships, and the latest news on addiction and the overdose crisis, plus my blog. Coming up, Carla tells me about the number her teenage son insists on wearing every time he steps onto the basketball court and why it means so much. She also shares the words of her 17-year-old daughter and what she said and how that changed how she thinks about Rain being gone. Stay with us Did you is- at any of your kids' schools? I s- no. I spoke, um, after at my, at the school my daughter went to about a year after her death. I spoke at her school, but never at the… But, but now our curriculum is going into the public schools where my kids went to school. So Okay Well, 'cause yeah to Noah's school next week, and he's a freshman. And so I told him, I'm like,"I don't know how that's gonna be." I'm like… like, "Are you gonna tell people you're my mom?" And I said, "Well, I won't if you don't want me to." He's like, "Well, I don't know, Mom." But I said, "If you don't wanna be in there when I talk, it's okay," you know. But, um, I don't know. We'll see. I'm just kinda curious as to see… 'Cause he's one of the kids, my kids, that, that doesn't share his, he doesn't talk a lot about his feelings. Угу Noah's dealt with his, he doesn't much about Rain at all. I feel like he's afraid to almost. But he does wear number 19 for basketball. He loves basketball, and Rain's forever 19. And so every time he goes to an, a team or a different team, they'll say, he's like,"I have to be number 19." So I know he's doing that for Rain. And, um, don't know how he's gonna do when I share her story public- with his, with his school. And so I'm Yeah, my kids have never seen me speak and tell the whole story, which I think is maybe a good thing, but I don't know. I don't know. Um, yeah, it's, it's a hard thing to navigate, right? There's no, like, playbook for any of this. I think you just have to do with your son whatever feels right for him. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and they do all express it differently. Like, the kids who aren't as verbal or vocal about it, that doesn't mean they don't feel it as deeply. Right it, and, and it comes out maybe in other ways. You know, grief is such a tricky thing. It is. You know, my eight-year-old, she-- Rain first passed away, she'd always come and say,"When is she coming home, Mom? When Oh. home?" Yeah her, "Ivy, she can't come home." you know, one thing my 17-year-old said one day is-- 'cause I was just really struggling, but it, it's something that really hit me. It was pretty wise. I said, " You know, Jaslyn, with God, all things are possible, but we, He, we can't bring Rain home." And she looked at me and said, "Mom, Rain is home. We're the ones that aren't home." And I said, "Okay." So now, like, I have to know that we'll get to s- I get to spend forever with her one day, and I-- I have to try to rem- like remind myself of that, and that's kind of what I tell Ivy because at eight years old, you're… Which, which is so why that curriculum you have is so important because those elementary-aged kids, they-- No one might-- You know, Ivy is dealing with a sister that she lost to fentanyl poisoning. There might be other kids in there that have no one to talk to about that, and so they grieve differently. They're going through things and, um, a lot of the time they have no one to talk to about it. So I think that's why your curriculum is so important So you did all this hard work to get Rain's Law passed in Oklahoma. What do you plan to do next, Karla? Well, now I'm just trying to, um, I guess, get into schools as far as, like, getting to share the story, um, and making sure that they're kinda following through. Because I know that the law is passed, but I don't… I know other states have struggled with them actually enforcing it and doing that. And so I'm, I would love to get your curriculum on the Oklahoma Education website. Um, I've met with people in the area, and I talked to the State Department of Education. I've had a meeting with them. I really just want curriculum to be available. Um, I want, you know, them to have assemblies that are meaningful so kids can see.'Cause you know, as you know, kids oftentimes don't think,"This can happen to me." But if they meet families and realize this has happened locally, like, I think it's important. So just trying to make sure that, um, those cur- there is curriculum in schools, there's assemblies, and that we're able to get in and talk if we need to, and yeah. So that's kind of what I've been working on. Well, keep up the good work in Rain's honor, and I'm so glad our missions are really aligned, and I'm so glad to have met you. Thank you for all of the work you've done up to this point and for sharing Rain with us. I think Her story is so important, and her life mattered, and it will continue to matter in this work that you're doing. So thank you again, and it's been wonderful to meet you Thank, no, and thank you for what you're doing, everything you're doing for Emily, and for allowing us to have this space to share and all that, all that you're doing. I appreciate it, and I'm s- I'm thankful, and I'm glad to have met you. And thank you for reminding me to be kind to myself and reminding me of my real last conversation with her, 'cause my heart needed that today, so thank you Oh, I love that. You're welcome. I'm, I'm so glad that my words can make a little bit of a difference for you I hope that Carla's and Rain's story reminds you that your loved one's life mattered and that love can keep teaching long after we've said goodbye. Next week on Grieving Out Loud, I'm talking with a Florida attorney, Mark Astor. So many families watching a loved one slip deeper into addiction feel like they have run out of options. Mark has spent years showing them that the law may offer a way to get someone into treatment even when that person can't make the choice for themselves. If you've ever felt powerless to help someone you love, you won't want to miss this conversation. Until then, you can listen to hundreds of past episodes at emilyshope.charity and find a link in the show notes. Thanks for listening. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Kasey Wonnenberg King and Kayli Fitz