I'm at peace where I'm at today, and that's all that I could hope for I think that's a beautiful thing to say on the eighth anniversary of your son's death, that you have found peace. And I think that could give hope to parents, anybody who's listening, that you can go through really hard things, things that feel like they're going to destroy you, and you can still come out on the other side. And I think forgiveness was one of the big ones I struggled with for a lot of years, was forgiving myself, um, for some of the mistakes that I had made as a parent or- Mm-hmm didn't do things correctly. Mm-hmm. That, that was a big hurdle that I was trying to get over, and that took a long time Well, I think as parents, we are the hardest on ourselves, and we could certainly all have done things differently maybe if we had known more. Sometimes we just didn't know what we didn't know, right? And so finding that kindness to yourself, that self-compassion. Eight years ago today, Janet Robb came home to find four police cars in her driveway. Her 19-year-old son, James, had died of an accidental overdose, and her whole world changed in an instant. Now, Janet first sat down with me back in 2021 on the third anniversary of James's death. Today, on the eighth anniversary, she's back to talk about her new book, Dear James. Janet is now a grief recovery specialist, and she writes so honestly about the stigma of overdose loss and the way she still feels connected to James and how she's learned to keep living with this kind of grief. She also makes sure we get to know James as the whole person he was and not just the disease that took him. I am so glad, Janet, to have you back on the show to share James's story with us and your new book. I am so honored to be here, especially on this particular day. So thank you for having Yeah, as I mentioned, this is the eighth anniversary of the day we're talking. It may not be the day it's released, but the day we're talking is the eighth anniversary of James' death. How are you holding up today, and, and how did you decide you wanted to spend this day sharing his story with us? This is probably the best way I could honor James, is by talking about it, being open about it, sharing my story, introducing the book. Uh, I feel like this is just the best way. And as far as holding up, I'm doing fine. Um, done a few little things in memory of James. I wrote him a letter this morning. I took a long walk this morning. Um, after that, I've just been kind of preparing for this podcast We're both at about the same timeframe when it comes to loss and grief. Eight years ago, I lost my daughter Emily to fentanyl poisoning. When I talked to you in 2021, we were three years out. What's different about your grief now compared to then? I, I think there's a huge difference in, in my grief Yes, there is a huge difference. Uh, it's not nearly as intense as it once was. Um, even at the three-year mark, it was still heavily intense. The emotions were very strong. I was still battling, um, from day to day or week to week, uh, if, if I was gonna be down crying that day or if I was gonna have the strength to get up and move forward. Um, so I don't really do that today. Eight years later, have really found a lot of peace with my son's passing. I have found peace and forgiveness with myself as a mother. I have found, uh, peace and forgiveness with others. Um, so I feel like right now where I'm sitting, I'm not carrying near the sadness and the hurt that I once did. Um, I did so many different activities. Oh, I hate to call them activities, but I I did so many different things to help with my healing process that some of those things really stuck, and I learned tremendously from those things. I think you and I are very similar, and I also wanna give hope to other parents who may be in year one, two, three, five. And I don't think it's necessarily universal for everybody, but I feel those things that you are saying. That eight years later, my grief, I've sort of learned to carry it. I still can find joy and deep meaning in life now, or maybe I can again find joy and deep meaning in life today. I went through, as you did, I became a certified grief educator, and that helped me. I think all these things that… And just talking to people on this podcast. So I don't know if, if… I'm not gonna say time heals all wounds and, and certainly that grief can come rushing back in at moments that can feel intense, but it, it sort of has lost its, its intensity, the frequency of the intensity. And I don't think there's any magic formula, and I don't think time takes the loss away, but it does make it maybe easier to manage It does. Um, and, you know, journaling has always been such a huge tool for me, even, even prior to losing James, and even more so after losing James. And I learned so much about myself during the journaling process, um, because that was an area where I could just dump, I could unload, I could just bare my complete soul on paper, and I didn't have the fear of anyone reading it or, um, people getting into my journal. So for me, there was a sense of freedom that I had with all of that. And my journaling, I was able to write to James. Um, would write to God. I would write to myself. Um, I would just write to anything or anyone that was on my heart that day or that timeframe, and it helped a, a l- a lot. It, um And I think forgiveness was one of the big ones I struggled with for a lot of years, was forgiving myself, um, for some of the mistakes that I had made as a parent or- Mm-hmm didn't do things correctly. Mm-hmm. That, that was a big hurdle that I was trying to get over, and that took a long time Well, I think as parents, we are the hardest on ourselves, and we could certainly all have done things differently maybe if we had known more. Sometimes we just didn't know what we didn't know, right? And so finding that kindness to yourself, that self-compassion. It, it, none of us are perfect people, but I think as mothers, we are also held up to this standard of you're supposed to be this or do this or know all or be all, and none of us can live up to that. And I think it's great that you were able to find that self-forgiveness. I think I have as well. I know I made mistakes, and I know there were things I felt worse about in years two or three than I feel about now. Maybe I have forgiven myself for mistakes I made along the way, not maybe thinking out, "I've forgiven myself," but that I don't feel that sense of, you know, "I wish I hadn't done that. Why did I do that? I should have done this." I don't know if that's just self-compassion. Do you have any, um, steps for parents to take to, to, to realize that self-forgiveness? Well, I think my journey, uh, I don't think there's just one, tool. I don't think that there's just one path to finding peace or finding forgiveness. Um, James died, I was terrified. I was desperate. Uh, and desperation is probably an understatement. I was willing to do anything and everything that I could to get to a, a level of peace. Um, and I was willing to try anything. So I was going to grief support groups. I was reading any book I could find on grief. I was all the time. I was journaling all the time. I was talking to numerous parents across the, the nation who had lost children. I signed up for, um, support groups on, on Facebook. They have a lot of support groups on Facebook for parents who'd lost children. Um, I was meditating. I was So I, I think for me, combining all of those things that I was doing, each time that I would uncover, uh, a new emotion or a new feeling, I knew how to deal with it because I had experience there. I had books. I had other parents. I had for me, as far as finding forgiveness, I don't feel like I just went out one day and decided to try something and it worked. Um, it was something I kept at and I kept at, and I never let up. For years, um, I just continued to do the same things, you know, the reading, the journaling, the talking. Um, you know, I was on the internet constantly searching for something, anything that could help, me find some peace with all of it. I can remember, and I think we spoke about this on the last podcast, but one of the big things that I did discover was I read a book Where Did You Go? And this book taught me how to go to the other side. But I think now, eight years later, it's not necessarily the other side that I went to. I think I just unlocked a deeper level within myself, and I was able to communicate with my son. And through that communication, and this lasted for months and years, um, that was really where a lot of my healing happened, was I didn't realize there was so many things left unsaid when he passed away. So this kinda gave me that opportunity to say a lot of things Yeah, that's one of the things you talk about in your book, Dear James, about staying connected to him through signs, a spiritual connection. Can you explain that a little more? Explain how that worked for you and how you continued a relationship with your son, how you still felt that he was close to you? Uh, well again, when I refer back to the book, um, the book was clear. It was a book I had not really read. It was on a whole different level, but I, like I said, I was willing to try anything. So this was one of those things that I was willing to, to try. I can just remember that there was a lot of imagination or getting quiet and visualizing a door, and that's what I did. I visualized this door and Through the, the steps of the book, I had to also visualize walking through that door. And when I opened the door, I recognized my son standing there. And for me, during this process, uh, my senses were heightened. when I did see him after passing through the door, could feel him. I could smell him. I could… To me, it was such a real… It felt so real, the experience of going through that door. Um, can remember the first time I went through, just, I cried and cried and cried, and I was hugging him, and he was hugging me. And, um, after that, I continued to go through the door quite often. Um, and each time I would go through the door, him and I would have these long conversations, and I was able to express a lot of things to him that I wanted to say, and I felt like he heard me. I felt like he heard me Do you think anybody could do this or use this? It almost sounds like a meditative type technique. Do you think anybody could do this? I do. I do because this book has a support group on Facebook that I'm also a part of, and I do go on these Facebook groups and I see what's being written, and I interact with a lot of the parents in this group, um, I hear a lot of parents who have really good experiences with this, and not even to the level that I was as far as journaling or meditating. Um, they've had really good results. Now, there are some parents that I have heard or seen on Facebook that when they went through the door the first time, it didn't happen for them. But as they continued reading the book or as they continued to go through the door, it did happen for them. So it just happens kinda differently for everyone, I think Well, it sounds very comforting, and it certainly sounds like it's worth a try. And even if someone would say, "Well, that's all in your head. You know, it's all just an imagination," who cares? If it brings you comfort and if you feel closer to the child that you lost and it's healing for you, it sounds like it could be a very positive thing Yes. Well, and I've shared-- I'm very open. I'm an extremely open individual, so I have shared my inf- my experience with, with numerous people. And, I have gotten, you know, some funny looks in return. I have gotten a few comments here in return and, you know, I could just really care less Right. Right because it's just, it's just my journey. That's it. It's my It's personal. Mm-hmm very personal. It's, um, it's what I experienced, and it's truly what helped bridge a huge gap for me in my recovery Have you lost a loved one to overdose or fentanyl poisoning? I'd like to invite you to share their story on our new Emily's Hope Memorial website called More Than Just a Number. They were our children, siblings, cousins, husbands, wives, aunts, uncles, and friends. So much more than just a number. You can submit a memorial today on morethanjustanumber.org. You mentioned that you journaled and that this morning you wrote a letter to your son. You called your book Dear James, and you framed it as a letter to your son. Tell me why you did that. Because there are so many… Even, even before I lost James, uh, I had been journaling for probably 15 years. It was a tool that I had learned, uh, being in recovery groups. Um, and I think once I started, I could s- really see the benefit of writing things out. I could see things so much clearer on paper than I could ever see trying to, uh, trying to figure it out in my head. So for me, there was a sense of clarity that came with my journaling, um, and a lot of, a lot of self-reflection as well in my journaling. So even as a mother raising kids, I had been journaling to my son for years. I had been journaling to my daughter for years because when I would come up across, or when I would come into a situation that was challenging or difficult or, um, bringing up strong emotions for me, this was my outlet. I could retreat, go into my office or my, my space and write the situation out. and I could also go through the feelings and the emotions, and I could try to figure out if these mo- emotions for this situation was valid or if these are, were emotions that were coming from a past experience that I just got triggered by, um, which it does make a difference. And so I think even after James passed away, journaling was just huge. Um, this, it… I, I just had to sort through my emotions. grief was so confusing, so confusing. Um, there were just… You know, there was several years afterwards that I was trying to find some joy in life. And whatever I was trying to find that was joyful, there was always guilt sitting right there. I always carried so much guilt Right? Because I would try if you live again, if you experience joy again, you're somehow betraying your child or you're not feeling enough grief. They're gone forever, so we should never be happy again. I think that's how the brain works, right? I'm not saying that's, that's how we should be, but I think everyone who has experienced a deep emotional loss like this has experienced that Oh, yeah. Well, and that was also what was causing a lot of the confusion. Um, I didn't know how to enjoy life or enjoy small things without feeling terrible or during Don't you think it's all in the small things too? What I try to do now is to notice the beauty in the world and to focus on the small little things and to be grateful for them, much more so than even… I think I was always trying to get to this point, but I think I do it better now than before this loss Yeah, I do. I, um, definitely can see that. The small things matter. seem to matter much more than they did Right. and I can appreciate them. Like even this morning taking a walk, I loved being out there in the quiet. Uh, walking in nature is so much different than walking in, on a treadmill Yes. Walking in all the noise and nature is, I feel like, where I heal the most. Yeah. absolutely there is one thing, though, when you sit down to write a book like this that, and I think as parents whenever we tell our child's story, we ultimately, and I do this when I speak to groups, I talk about the day that my daughter died. And you wrote about October 13th of 2018 when you came home, you know, saw the police cars in your driveway. You really have to relive it to write about it or to speak about it. Was that difficult for you? Um, yes. But it was also another level, uh, to my healing journey. So yes, it was very difficult to write 'cause I did have to relive it, uh, detail by detail. And, uh, when I wrote it, I can remember crying, uh, quite a bit, but that's nothing new. I mean, I'm accustomed to that. I'm used to that. And to me, I feel like heal- uh, feel like tears and crying is really healthy for the soul. Uh, so to me, it didn't bother me to cry through it. It didn't bother me to bring any of that emotion back up again because it was normal and it, I felt like it was a healing, a healing part to my journey. But I wrote this book in, in three weeks. I, um, I just sat down and it all started coming out. And of course, I have my journals, all I had to do was reflect back to those timeframes, and all the information really was there. And I'm so grateful for my journals too, because there's no way I could have pulled this information from memory alone. remember things. I mean, that's part of the problem with grief. There are certain timeframes, especially those early years, months, that, you know, there's just things you don't remember. Things that you did, things, you know, people you talked to, you don't remember. Mm-mm. And that's typical. I- It we've talked in the first podcast about how James died of a Xanax overdose, and I think it was really important to address that because people need to understand that Xanax can be dangerous. It's highly addictive. I mean, it's be- it's been so common in our culture. But there's also a certain amount of stigma that comes from any kind of drug overdose, uh, i- that complicates the grief, I think. Don't you? Absolutely. Absolutely. And I know that was one area that I was not gonna shy away from. I was very outspoken even prior to James' passing. I was always very open and outspoken about the alcoholism in our family, issues that I was struggling with, codependency. Um, I was open about, uh, alcoholism, addiction, uh, you know, all those sensitive topics. I always made it a point to talk about it openly, whether it be at work, whether it be at a, a function, whether it be… I mean, I never shied away from speaking openly about this, um, because I have nothing to be ashamed of. I have nothing to be embarrassed about. This was my son. I come from a family that struggles with um, and I think I'm actually a better person because of it. pushed me to, uh, exceed a lot of expectations, and it pushed me to educate myself and learn, and I've always had a drive to myself, um, at least have some self-awareness. So, Yeah, yeah a great thing and I've said it a few times on the podcast, but don't waste your suffering, right? If you can use your suffering to grow, to become a better person, to help others, and I think that is something you've tried to do. Y- You, know, you wrote about codependency, your time in a 12-step recovery spaces. All of those things are not necessar- are, can be really hard to face. But to take those struggles and to grow and learn from them is the best. We're all gonna suffer in some way in life Absolutely. And I think when I, I think when a person just reaches a pain threshold is when they're truly willing to do something different. And that was kinda the course of my life is growing up in dysfunctional methods. carry a lot of dysfunction into your adult world. And I could see early on my life was not working. Uh, I was putting in 100% and getting back 10%. Um, that was still the same thing even after my son passed, is noticed that I had to put in the work. I just… Not, not, not that I had to put in the work, but I was desperate. The pain threshold was more than I could take, and I had to find some outlet. I had to find something that could help me get through that Right. I think that that is a hard thing. You don't know if you're gonna survive that pain. It feels like you might die from the pain. Not that… Yes that mind-body connection. People get horribly sick, illnesses. I s- I know so many moms suffering from illnesses after the death of their children because I think the, the grief is just all-consuming, and it does feel like it's going to kill you. And we, we know there's the mind-body connection. So you were a seeker. You were seeking a way out of the pain that wasn't destructive That's right. right. Yeah, I never did drink. I never did take pills. I never wanted to do anything that would cloud my judgment or, um, eliminate what I was feeling. I wanted to feel it all. I wanted to experience it all. Um, as painful as it was, I learned so much that pain and those experiences. Um, Right? I just, I feel like I, I developed as a person, as a mother Are you ready to protect the next generation from the dangers of substance use? Emily's Hope has created a comprehensive K through 12 substance use prevention curriculum designed to educate, empower, and equip students with the tools they need to make healthy choices. Our age appropriate lessons start in kindergarten and build through high school using science, real stories, and interactive learning to help kids understand their bodies, brains, and risk of drug use. We're already reaching thousands of students across multiple states, and we're just getting started. Visit emilyshopeedu.org to learn more and share our curriculum with your school administrators and counselors. At Emily's Hope, we believe prevention begins with education. Let's work together to keep our kids safe. We talked about grief. We talked about spiritual connection that you had, of things that you cover in the book. You also have a section called All That He Was where you talk about James and, and I think it's so important that our loved ones, our children be remembered for more than just how they died. I say that all the time about Emily. I want her to be remembered for who she was, the artist that she was, and I know you feel the same way about James Absolutely. I mean, James, James was a, a beautiful kid. was a handsome guy. He was, uh, creative. He was full of energy. Um, I had some old VHS tapes, um, digitized a few weeks back, and I was watching these of when the kids were four and five years old, and oh my gosh, I mean, just adorable. The kids, you know, James was adorable. And, um, did, I, I'm, I wanted to make a strong effort to try to infiltrate some of his personality into this book. I didn't want the whole book just to be about grief. I wanted to, wanted to, to show and, and get my story out there for parents who are grieving, but I also wanted them to know what I did to heal. And then I also wanted them to know a little bit about who my son was, and I… It's hard to put that into words. It's hard to put that on paper. but I did f- I did feel like I did the best that I could with trying to show his personality Well, people have so many dimensions to them, and they're complicated, and they're not just one thing. So words don't always do it justice, right? Like, there are things you felt about your son or felt from your son that you can't even put into words. I mean, I've said this since I lost my daughter that I, I write- I've written for a- I write for a living. I've written for my entire career. I, I consider myself a writer, but there really are no words to communicate the depth of the loss, and there are no words really to communicate the depth of a human being Uh, absolutely. Yes. And I know a lot of the feedback I received from my book so far is that um, it's a difficult read. A lot of people who've read my book have cried, and I'm okay with that. Uh, I wanted to, I wanted to write with as much detail and as much depth and honesty as I could because I know when I was going through my grief early on, um, I felt so alone. I felt terribly alone. That was another level that, um, added to the terrifying experience I think we are alone in our grief, really. I mean, I think that it's our grief, it's ours alone, and most people, and we don't want them to understand. That's why when we meet each other-- I was just recently at a retreat full of moms who've lost someone to substances, and we understand each other immediately. We know the depths of the pain that we've all been through. But when you're in the world or with your fam- the gri- everyone's grief is different and, and you are very alone in your grief Yeah, you are. And I, I most definitely was. There was really nobody around that had lost a child. Right um, so I feel like when I wrote the book, I wrote it in such detail that a newly grieving parent would read the book and be able to relate or not feel so alone That's the purpose of this podcast. That's why we want people who are in grief to listen to this podcast. If you know someone, I'm, I'm talking to our viewers and our listeners now who've lost someone. It doesn't have to be a child, but please refer them to this podcast because they will feel less alone when they hear these conversations because there is a universal, universal kind of grief, I think. Um, in general, grief follows certain patterns. It, it, it… Then there's a certain, um, universal kind of stigma that goes along with overdose deaths as well that everyone feels. So you're not alone, and I want people to know that. What, what is it, Janet, that you miss most about James? I would have to say His, his smile his funny personality. Um He, I, I just felt like my son was an, a very, a very attractive young guy. He, but he also had humor about him, and his humor was always so innocent. He, um, he would just make me laugh sometimes with some of the things that he would say or his point of view on, on things. His… he would look at something completely different than how I would look at it, and he would give it a funny twist or he would give it a, a certain spin that would just leave me thinking, "Wow, how did he see that?" Or, "How did he get that from that situation?" Um, so he, he definitely had humor. He had fun. He had a joyful side, and I do miss that side of him Um, yeah, Emily was goofy and funny and so accepting of everybody. Um, I miss all of that, uh, that part of her that was silly and funny. And I saw less of it as she used substances. I saw less of that part of her personality, and I wish that, uh, she could have held onto that longer, that part of her that was innocent and fun and funny and, um, just joyful, right? Well, and there's a part too to, um, addiction or loss like we've experienced that we, we had the unfortunate experience of losing our kids before they were actually That's right Um, that's very confusing also, um, to have your child struggling and you can see the, the lights are, are slowly going out, and there's nothing you can do. You're powerless or, or helpless to do anything, uh, for them. So there's a grief there, but yet your child is still here. Um, so that, that's a confusing part to the story. And then It, it does make everything more complicated for sure, because I remember standing in Emily's room three, two, three years before she died feeling like I've lost my daughter. I feel like the daughter that I had, the daughter that I was so close to had died already. Like, she was still here, but it wasn't my daughter anymore. And I, I remember very distinctly thinking that, but not really thinking she was going to physically die, but feeling like I had lost her in so many ways. And I, I did everything I could to try to get her back. You know, I just tried to use all my resources and, uh, and I think that's where we feel as parents as though we failed our children, even though if you've learned anything about substance use disorder, we know we're not in control. We know that the disease is bigger than we are, and we can't maybe save another person from this, just as you can't save somebody from cancer or some other disease. And but it's such a hard thing to accept I completely agree. And I, like you, did the same thing. I-- we went through rehab, so we went through outpatient, uh, services. We, we had meetings. We, we were part of recovery groups. I mean, I was trying anything. I was trying everything. And, you know, he would do well, uh, for, for a span of time with, you know, being sober and getting on the right track, and our relationship would seem to start to blossom again. And all it took sometimes was just one phone call from a friend, and out the door he went, and it was just so fast. I mean, we had spent months and months getting him to, a pretty healthy level in his life, and one phone call and it just ripped it all, all away And I'm sure it felt like all that effort was completely wasted. Would you say it's wasted today even though he's no longer here with us? No, not at all. I don't think anything in this lifetime is, is wasted. Every single step is a learning experience, I learned a lot. I learned a lot about my son. I learned a lot about the disease of addiction. Um, so no, I, I would not say that any part of our life together or even after, nothing was wasted. all, it was all designed, I feel like, to bring me where I'm at today, And I'm at peace where I'm at today, and that's all that I could hope for I think that's a beautiful thing to say on the eighth anniversary of your son's death, that you have found peace. And I think that could give hope to parents, anybody who's listening, that you can go through really hard things, things that feel like they're going to destroy you, and you can still come out on the other side. Not that you don't miss that person, not that you don't still love that person, not that you don't wish you could have changed the outcome, but you can find peace Absolutely. And, you know, one other thing I noticed is that once James did pass away, um, in my desperation, I was reaching out to a lot of parents who'd lost children and I was recognizing that these parents really had no answers either. They were, they were struggling to find their own way, a lot of them really were just kinda numbed out or had resorted to an unhealthy habit to help them cope or, you know, they had just stuffed away all this pain and grief. And I saw a lot of parents that were coping in that manner, and it was so unfortunate that our, our world has made it so uncomfortable for people to grieve in o- in the open or express emotions in, out in the open. And to see so many of parents, um, just literally stuff, all this grief away and continue moving forward was kind of sad for me. I, I didn't wanna be that person. I didn't want to stuff any part of this away. I didn't want to numb myself out, um, because I felt like my grief was a direct connection to my son. Even though it was painful, that was still my son right there, and I was not going to diminish any part of that story. Um, and I'm so glad I didn't Grief is a connection to our loved one. For sure it is. And there is a gift in grief Yes rather than avoid it. And we are a grief avoidance society. You are 100% correct about that. So thank you for talking about it, for getting educated on it, for writing this book, Dear James. We will definitely include a link in our show notes for anybody who wants to get your book. And I think it's a wonderful tribute to your son, but also such a generous thing for you to do to help other parents Well, I appreciate that. I know how much the help meant to me when I was going through all of this. Um, and like I had mentioned previously, so alone is the one thing I can remember about those early days, just feeling terrified and alone and not having the verbiage, not having the verbiage to even explain or describe that I was feeling. It was just a big, big m- mass of all kinds of stuff, and it was just overwhelming. So I just, I wrote the book hoping that if somebody would read it, they would feel less alone Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure that is happening as people get the book and read it. And it's been great to connect again with you after five years. I can't believe it's been five years. And the podcast is still growing strong, which I'm grateful for. And we have so many new listeners and viewers all the time, 'cause we're on YouTube as well. And it's evolved too, and I just think as the grief evolves, um, the podcast has evolved. But it's so nice to be able to connect with you again and, and to share James's story and all the great work that you've been doing Well, thank you so much, Angela. I, I am so honored to have this time with you today. Um, so thank you for having me. I really appreciate it You're welcome And thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode of Grieving Out Loud. If you'd like to hear my first conversation with Janet, you'll find a link in the show notes, along with a few other episodes we think you'll find helpful. We'd also appreciate it if you'd rate and review this podcast and share it with your friends and family. I truly believe that by sharing these stories and having these conversations, we can help each other heal and remind those who are hurting they are not alone. Thanks again for listening. Wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Wannenberg King and Kayli Fitz