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why talk about joy after losing a child to suicide, and how were you able to find your way back to that? It took about six years, maybe seven, for me to laugh without feeling guilty. When I laughed right after or I would smile, I was like,"Whoa, I can't do that because I have to honor Richard. I can't laugh and I can't dance. Right, let's talk about that for a second. It feels like betrayal to the person you I can't go to you should never be happy again because they're not here. Mm-hmm Yes Correct. After walking alongside her son through his battle with addiction and then losing him to suicide at just 24 years old, Anne Marie Ferrino knows the depths of grief and heartbreak. But she also knows that even after devastating loss, it is possible to find joy, purpose, and a reason to keep moving forward. In this episode of Grieving Out Loud, she shares her deeply personal story, what she's learned through her journey, and what she wants others to know about finding hope and living a full life after loss. I went away with some girlfriends and I n- I started laughing, and then when I got home that night, I realized that I laughed, and I didn't feel guilty about it right after. And that was really, really huge, and I believe that, you know, the power of unstoppable love that I talk about that connects us, that connects us here, it connects us, and it connects us to the people we've lost. And there's so much love on that other side of grief or with the grief, and it really, really helps it, helps, helped me heal every parent who has loved someone through addiction knows a particular kind of chaos, never being sure what the next phone call will bring. My guest today lived that chaos for years with her son and then had to find a way through an entirely different kind of chaos when she lost him. Marie Ferrino is a mother, speaker, and writer whose new

book, Chronic Chaos: 2:27

A Son's Addiction, a Mother's Love, and Her Quest to Find Joy, traces her son journey through addiction and mental illness from wilderness therapy programs and boarding schools to the day the FBI attempted to recruit her teenage son as an informant. Richard died by suicide in 2016, and Ann Marie has spent the years since piecing her life back together, raising her blended family and learning how to laugh, live, and love again. Marie, welcome to Grieving Out Loud, and, and thank you for writing your book. Well, thank you for having me, Angela. I'm, I'm honored to be here I love the fact that you incorporate words like joy into your subtitle because I think it can be so hard for so many people. And Richard died in 2016, am I correct? Correct And Emily died in 2018. And we have a lot of people who watch or listen to this podcast who are early on in their grief of losing someone, and it's hard to really imagine ever joy again 100%. I felt like there was not going to be any joy again. But it really is all connected, the grief, the love, the loss, and the joy. And that's, that is s- you really almost can't tell someone that in the beginning because it's pa- it's so painful Right. Right. Because it, it, I, somebody did tell me in the beginning, somebody who was oh no. thirt- 13 years out from losing her daughter, and I'll never forget, I was just filled with disbelief. I thought, "That cannot be true," that, that she told me life would get deeper, more meaningful, and richer if you allowed it. And I thought, "What in the world? I, that isn't possible. I don't believe that." And I, but I never forgot it, right? It stuck with me, even though Jasno fathom it. And she wasn't wrong. She wasn't wrong. Right I was ready to hear it in the first few months after my daughter died Which is, I completely understand that because things, people do say things that are shocking when you're in that raw space. You're, you're, you're in every storm you never imagined and in a fog. And so a lot of people, at least, um, in my situation, said things, you know, at the wake or, you know, trying to help. And they do mean well. I believe they mean well. But it really is j- I think better to just say you're sorry because after that it can get confusing for the person who, the mom or the dad or sister or broth- h- whoever's grieving For sure. I always think of people's intentions, and I try to give people some grace and the benefit of the doubt that their intentions are good or were good at the time. But yes, it's always best just to say that you're sorry, offer support, but not to give advice. Maybe that's what it is. N- or I try to fix things or, or tell people that, you know, something like, uh, everything happens for a reason. That's one of my… Or they're in heaven now. I mean, those M- just that there's, you don't, th- like what reason? In your mind, right? If when someone says that to you, it's what, what, there can't possibly be a reason And I don't believe that. I believe that there's a, a, s- a chaos in the world. I believe that things happen, Yes make meaning out of it, but things don't happen necessarily for a reason. It was because somebody did something, um, you know, or because of something going wrong. But it, I, you know, I don't think there's, like, some greater reason why you lost your No. lost my daughter Well, and also saying, um, they're in a better place, as you mentioned. My mind goes to, have you seen it? Have you been there? right. Me too. You haven't seen it. none of us have, right? No pe- I, I admire people who have that kind of faith, that strongly believe it. I know Yes But when you have lost someone that feels like you're losing a piece of yourself, Mhm does not help. It does not help. No Let's talk about Richard, and can you everyone who's listening or watching in a little bit more about him, his life was like, and some of what you dealt with? So I'll say that Richard as a person was very charismatic. He was brutally honest, which sometimes I wanted to close my ears and say, "No, I don't wanna hear all about your adventures." He was empathetic. He was, um, had a huge heart. He, he wanted to help others. He sat with homeless people on his days off of work and had-- and just sat there with them until they started talking, and he would just listen. So he was very, very-- He had a huge heart. And at school, if there was someone sitting by themselves, he would go over and talk to them, and then eventually bring them over to meet all the other people. So he was a, a very good person. He was very lonely in his mental illness and in his, in his addiction. He was very confused about things. Um, you know, small things that other people did naturally were harder t-tasks for him. He, uh, started kind of acting out right around the time he was 11 or 12, and of course then, you know, he would've been-- he would be 30-- He's 34 in heaven. Um, at that time, ADHD was very b- every boy had it. You know? It was-- They were-- Everybody had it. So they were giving medication to everyone, and of course, he didn't like the way it made him feel. And as he got older, he got in more trouble, and he just-- He was the kid that didn't walk down the road less traveled. He swung from the treetops. I mean, this kid had adventures, and he'd be halfway down the road with these ideas he had, and then he would turn around and call me and go, "Mom, help. Come pick me up." Uh, you know, it was-- I always knew there was going to be another thing with Richard. But he grew up in a family with a brother and a sister and a lot of love. There was a lot of love around him, and you know, I always say he was loved. He, he was the first grandchild. He was loved before he was born, and so there was so much support for him and love for him. And he just, as he got older, the anxiety kicked in, the depression kicked in, and by the time he was in seventh and eighth grade, of course, he was smoking pot, telling me it should be legal, and of course, after he died, it did. Um, and then, you know, I saw the, the addiction picked up, and chicken or egg, as you were saying, which comes first? But I-- He-- I believe he was self-medicating. Right. And we know, and I've talked to so, I've talked, I feel like ad nauseam on this podcast about marijuana and the effects of marijuana on the developing brain, and we know marijuana can cause psychosis. It can cause mental health issues for young people, people who are using marijuana, the potent marijuana of today. Mhm back when Richard started using it, there wa- and, and my daughter Emily started using it and she thought it was the greatest thing ever and should be legal for everybody, and everybody should be able to use it, and it was natural and all these things. You weren't hearing what you're hearing today about the potency of marijuana and its effect on the developing brain Correct. None of that was being discussed. And I think also, you know, hopefully as the years have gone on, you know, the whole stigma around mental health has, you know, started to come down. I believe we have a very long way to go though Yes, a very long way to go. And how did you cope during these years as Richard's mom? How were you coping with everything that was going on? I just knew it was sort of walking on eggshells. I knew it wasn't like if something was gonna happen next, it was happening next, so I was in that mindset. And, you know, I, I never even thought about giving up or not doing every single thing possible for my son. So I, I think that helped me cope, you know, researching, um, doctors and therapeutic boarding schools and woods programs and, um, just getting to the next place that I thought would help. And you did all that. You did those, did all of it He- you put him in those programs, and I've talked to other parents on this podcast who did the same thing and who spent a lot of money and a lot of Mhm. looking for a solution, right? A fix, something that was gonna truly help, and lost their child anyway, whether it be to overdose or suicide. So it is, it-- and, and I often think as somebody who I thought about sending Emily away to a program, and I was afraid to do that. I was afraid to send her far away for a lot of reasons, and I never did. And sometimes my mind will go to, "Well, maybe if I would've sent her away at 15 to this program or that program, maybe she would be okay today." But even if, that… And, and I think, like, that goes to so many grievers, right? Even if Yes would've done A, B, or C, and, and here are the people I talk to like you whose proof that even when you do those things, it doesn't necessarily save their life. It No, cases, but it it can. to No, it doesn't. And a lot of people, you know, asking for help is such a strength, it's not a weakness. And I think a lot of parents can kind of get into that. Um, but asking for help is exactly, you know, in my case, what I constantly did, you know, researching and figuring out, "Okay, well, there's gotta be something better. This didn't work. Let's go on." And he told me that none of those programs ever worked when he was sober. He said he wasn't ready He w- he wasn't ready. So he, you know, he was sober the last three years of his life. So he was sober when he left by suicide. Behind every overdose statistic is a person who was loved. The Into Light Project is putting a face to those we've lost, humanizing the addiction and drug crisis one story at a time. Artists create graphite portraits of people who have died from addiction, overdose, fentanyl poisoning, or drug-induced homicide. A professional writer crafts a narrative to go with each portrait so the person's story is told alongside their image. When it's finished, the family keeps the original artwork. Exhibits are opening in South Dakota, Illinois, Missouri, South Carolina, and Maine, and submissions are open right now. If you've lost someone you love to this crisis, this is a chance to make sure their story is seen and remembered. Submit your loved one's story to intolightproject.org/share-your-story. That's intolightproject.org/share-your-story, and we've put a link in the show notes to this podcast. How old was he when he stopped using substances then? 21. So his maturity, right? So his maturity, he started u- smoking pot when he was about 14. Mhm. they say Yes the maturity level of a 14-year-old when he quit at 21 That's a really important point, Ann Mhm don't talk enough about because I have seen this play out with people that I know as well, that if you start using substances at that age, 14, then you will stilt your emotional growth. You will Yes be at that a- whenever you stop, you'll be at that age. And so people don't talk enough about that They really, they really don't, but it is 100, it, percent absolutely true. I s- I lived it. I saw how he was… Those small tasks that you learn growing up were difficult for him when he was sober. He had to kinda learn things over again should've been easily able to do as a 21-year-old, he Yes. like a 14-year-old. Yeah. Yes. A cute 14-year-old, though. And so, but he continued to struggle. So, i- uh, it's amazing that he was able to give up substances. Uh, marijuana, anything else that he was using? Alcohol? Well, um, alcohol wasn't the problem. He graduated to opioids and then heroin okay. So he was using heroin, Yes such a powerful substance, but he was able to stop He was able to stop at the… He to, with the help of medications or what helped him stop? What helped him stop is h- he overdosed on heroin, and he obviously survived that overdose and said to me in the hospital,"You know, Mom, if I keep using, I'm gonna die." I, I said, "Yes, you will die if you keep using." So he gets out of the hospital, he's at home for two days, and he-- all of a sudden he comes down dressed, ready to go out. And I said, "What are you doing?" He said, "My friends are picking me up." I, I said,"If you leave right now, I'm either getting a call from jail or a hospital." And he's like, "Mom, I'm good. I love you. Bye." And he left.

I got the call, 4: 16:36

00 in the morning, he had been pulled over and arrested for fel- for a-- it's a felony to have, you know, heroin on your person. You don't have to be selling it, it can be used for yourself. So I picked him up from the jail, asked him if he was finished yet, if, if this was bottom, and he laughed, and he's like, "No, this isn't bottom." Well, then it changed when we got to the court and he was in front of the judge. And the judge said, "Welcome to the world of felonies, Richard, where your life is no longer your own, it's mine." And I literally could see him shaking up there. It really hit him, so we were able to get the okay to take him to a f- to a facility in, uh, Minnesota at 21 And after that, he was able to stop. Yes, he was able to s- program? I mean, obviously something had changed inside of… 'Cause sometimes it does take-- It's just so interesting what works for some people and doesn't work for others, 'cause sometimes it, it does take going to court, facing prison, facing a record. Yes suddenly go, "Oh, I just wanna stop doing this." But other people can't, Right So it just depends on the person. I- it's so interesting It, does. And he-- they also put him on, you know, they wanna rehabilitate, of course. They don't wanna send people to jail. So he went, uh, uh, Illinois had a program at the time, um, if you're sober for eight months, you come back to court, and they will drop the charges. Um, so he did that program. That was really important to him, and I-- that is the reason he got sober. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. equities. I felt exactly the same way because I'm, was living in a suburb of Chicago, you know, fairly conservative, and I couldn't believe that these kids were doing this because… But it's ev- it's just, it's everywhere everywhere. And now it's fentanyl. You know, I think a few years ago, 2016, 2018, at least in my daughter's case, she thought she was getting heroin and she received heroin laced with fentanyl. There was actually some heroin in it, um, Wow with fentanyl. But now I think it's just fentanyl because it's so cheap and you don't have to grow the plant and all of that. Right. It's a shortcut So he was able, without medically assisted treatment, just through a program and through the courts, to stay off of heroin after that. Yes, he was. He was sober but he did, he continued to struggle then with his mental He real- he really, really did. He struggled with his mental health the three years he was sober. You know, we were so thankful for the time we had together, and my whole family was because, you know, we would… He stayed in, um, Minnesota area, um, for most of the three years, and we would visit him all the time. Uh, and, and it was so amazing to spend that time with him where he was sober. And he was a foodie, and he would pick me up from the hotel and open my door for me, and he was just darling it really was a gift then though. I have a, another mom who told me that there was a period where her son was in recovery, that was such a gift because they finally felt, she finally felt like she had a relationship with him where there had been years of chaos, as you appropriately named your book, Right. Chronic Chaos. Yes. there had been years of chaos, and just having the, the real person emerge from all of that was a gift. Do you feel that was a gift, that time that you it was such a huge gift. I- it really is, you know, I think about those times or look at pictures from those times and, you know, he was himself again. And, you know, he was, as I said, he was very, very hilarious. So we had great times, but he would talk to me about his mental health and the things he was struggling to do. But he had a great… He was in a management training program for a company. He didn't graduate from college, so that was amazing, and he was going to be married. Um, he passed in June, and he was supposed to be married in September Oh. So you had this vision for his future. Obviously he had a vision for his future if he had gotten engaged. Yes yeah, it's just so hard to reconcile It, it is. And then, you know, a lot of people say this about, you know, suicide specifically, is the weeks leading up to it, they're so happy because maybe he had made the decision, you know? And it turns out he had made the decision from what he had in his apartment. But he was, the night before, you know, I had talked to him on the phone, we were texting, and the night before he was with friends and he was… Sent a picture to the whole family saying, "Just enjoying some Marvin Gaye and grilling my vegan sausages and, you know, having a great day." And then it, it was that next, it was that next night So you did not see this coming at all then? I will say, did I see it coming? No. Was I surprised? No. I was not surprised Explain Because suicide w- had been brought up periodically through the years, and he had never tried before. But there was always something in the back of my mind. We had… I remember one day we looked at an apartment for him on the 27th floor of a building, and there was a balcony. And I didn't say it out loud, of course, but in my mind I thought, "I wonder if he's gonna jump off that balcony." It's just a mom's intuition Instinct, it, yes, which really, uh, really, it really bothered me. But he loved the apartment, and so he lived there for a little while Yeah. And, and I, I'm so sorry for the shock and the devastation that you went through, and it is brutal to lose a child in any way. And yes But I feel that suicide, as is overdose or fentanyl poisoning, so stigmatized, and people always look at the parent and say, "Hmm," you know? we look at ourselves, like, "What could we have done differently?" How did you cope in those first few years after Richard died? I had to learn how to do things again. You know what I'm saying? Like, you're in that fog and that raw shock, and I had a huge support system, which was lovely. But I, I just, I had to put myself on a schedule,'cause at first I didn't know… You don't know… I didn't know what to do. You know, I, I didn't know how to make this feel any better. So, um, I went to a grief therapist r- early on,'cause I am a, I'm a big believer in therapists, and found an amazing woman. Um, and she actually explained to me that someone who is leaving by suicide is in so much pain, like their body's on fire, and they have to leave the pain behind. They feel like, they feel there's no choice. And for me, that really, it, it made sense. It was the first time… I mean, I didn't, I still struggled, struggled with it for many, many years, but that made sense to me And you mentioned joy, and I assume peace also goes along with that. So why, why talk about joy after losing a child to suicide, and how were you able to find your way back to that? It took about six years, maybe seven, for me to laugh without feeling guilty. When I laughed right after or I would smile, I was like,"Whoa, I can't do that because I have to honor Richard. I can't laugh and I can't dance. Right, let's talk about that for a second. It feels like betrayal to the person you I can't go to you should never be happy again because they're not here. Mm-hmm Yes Correct. a big, huge yes. And it took a very long time, but finally I had… I went away with some girlfriends and I n- I started laughing, and then when I got home that night, I realized that I laughed, and I didn't feel guilty about it right after. And that was really, really huge, and I believe that, you know, the power of unstoppable love that I talk about that connects us, that connects us here, it connects us, and it connects us to the people we've lost. And there's so much love on that other side of grief or with the grief, and it really, really helps it, helps, helped me heal Are you ready to protect the next generation from the dangers of substance use? Emily's Hope has created a comprehensive K through 12 substance use prevention curriculum designed to educate, empower, and equip students with the tools they need to make healthy choices. Our age appropriate lessons start in kindergarten and build through high school using science, real stories, and interactive learning to help kids understand their bodies, brains, and risk of drug use. We're already reaching thousands of students across multiple states, and we're just getting started. Visit emilyshopeedu.org to learn more, and share our curriculum with your school administrators and counselors. At Emily's Hope, we believe prevention begins with education. Let's work together to keep our kids safe. Do you feel that you're healed today or will you ever fully heal? No. Um, grief, as we know, stays with us and will always stay with us. It changes shape. Uh, you never move on, and a lot of people will say, "Have you moved on? Are you healed?" No. It's not like a… It's not like I got a huge cut and it's sewn up and, you know, there's a scar on it. It, it's always there and it's always open, but it can do so many things for you that I know now after it- it's been a decade. So, and it's always… I don't know if you feel this way, but for me it's before and after. When I think about life, I think of before Richard Yes. died and after Well, we lose a cert- I look at the person I was before Emily died, and you lear- lose a certain, um, I don't wanna say innocence'cause that's not the right word, but you look back on who you were and you could never have predicted that you could even survive something like this, you know, to feel all the emotions. You had no idea what those were, No you're a completely different person afterwards. Mhm. some people come along for the ride, and some people leave. Um, but you're always with yourself, and so you've changed, I think I like myself better now, although I would take back in a second Right. to I, less. yes, I agree but yes, I mean, we just, we're different people and are s- are entirely different people Our perspective is, is, has changed like black and white. You know? It's almost, it's so, so, so different on how you look at things in life and the things that become important to you Right. were important before, right, no time for drama, and you do really, uh, sometimes you can get caught up in stuff that doesn't really matter still. I mean, we're human, right? Right I think we see the bigger picture of things. We, we know what's really important, and we show up when we need to show up for people because of that Yes. And I also, I pray a lot about being, for all the people that, you know, my family and everyone who's al- stuck, stuck with me through all of these last 10 years, I pray that I'm there for them. Like, am I doing, am I being a good enough friend? You know, am I showing up for them? That's really has become so important because having them has, has been, you know, life-changing really Right. And the people that come alongside you that you never dreamed, maybe you never knew, uh, before this happened, that is an interesting phenomenon to me too. Your whole, whole entire world shifts. In your book, you write about nudges. Nudges from, or signs. We t- we've Signs. Yes. yes. Yes can you explain that to us? Sure. Um, well we know there's no coincidences, and, um, I believe in nudges or signs that, um, somehow are getting to me. I don't know if it's through a higher power or how they really are showing up, but they're big. And, um, at first for me, they started out with, a lot of people see butterflies. I, I see them all the time, even when it's not, like, the season where butterflies are around. And there's also ways, um, I've had nudges that have really pushed me into a really great direction. Um, I'll give you an ex- would you like an example? Yes, of Yes. thinking that you're talking about that intuition, that instinct that we, I think as women, um, we've learned to ignore it sometimes or society tells us to ignore it, but every time I have ignored it, I pay for it. So I've learned to tune in and to listen to it Well, because if you do, uh, uh, miraculous things come your way. Yes I have a friend who wanted to read the book. She's… So I gave her a book, and she, um, this just happened. She read the book. She couldn't, you know, she was just, it was like

3: 31:37

00 in the morning when she finished it, and she had her phone next to her. And Substack pulled up a author of poems named Richard, and the poem that he wrote was, You've Never Been The Places I Have. Now, this friend never met Richard, and she called me and said, "I've never met him, and I'm sitting here, and he just popped up and said hi." Which is, isn't that crazy? It's like, it was really special for her. She, she, we talked about it for weeks Other than butterflies, what about for you? How does Richard show up? He shows up sometimes when I'm nervous about something. He shows up and I actually, this happened a couple weeks ago, where I was nervous about an interview. It was a live thing. And, um, first, a guy came into the green room and said, "Oh, I help the homeless people. I started this foundation where we, and, and we take homeless people and we try to get them to be independent livers again." And I just… A tear ran down my face, and I said, "You help homeless people?" And he said, "Yes. Here's my card." And then at that moment, I felt this warm sensation kind of in the center of my body. It was very warm. It was very loving. And I believe Richard was like, "Do it, Mom. Just get out there. You're fine." You know, it was like this message coming into me at a time where I was nervous, but I couldn't believe that a person who helps homeless people was there and being interviewed the same day Right. It can't explain away that serendipity or those coincidences. They could be, but take them as signs because it's helpful to do so. And it doesn't hurt anything to take all of those things as signs. I know whenever I speak and tell Emily's story, I always ask Emily to be with me, to come through me, to get the message that people need to hear, whoever that audience is. Yes I always say when I tell her story, it's… I, I don't sing. Nobody wants me to sing. I'm a horrible singer. But that me talking about her and telling her story is my love song to my daughter. Wow I think that they are with us in some way. How could they not be, right? How could they not be? their DNA is in us. Our DNA was in them. you know, they are, I always think of tethered to us somehow in spirit. Mhm. Um, but those signs when they come, and they used to come a lot more frequently for me, Mhm as frequently as they used to, and I don't know why that is Maybe, you know, I find when I'm busier, you know, really busy, as, and as not, as not really as in tune, but, you know, I really encourage people to be in tune and just kind of open up, open up to it. Um, I was on the way to a cousin's wedding and, um, my sister told me there was a shortcut, and we were driving it, and all of a sudden there was a town where everything was named Richard. The grocery store was Richard. The 7-Eleven was Richard's, you know, R- Richard's Laundromat, Richard's Restaurant, you know? It was … Ev- And my sister and I are looking at each other like, with, we were like, "What? What is going on?" It was so cool, and he was with us, no doubt. I mean, how can that happen that you just pull into a town with his name all over? Yeah. do you want people to take away from your book? And we will put a link in the show notes to your book as well Thank you. Thank you. I'd like to know- them to know that it's a st- in the beginning, a story of adventure. Richard was very funny, and he, he got himself involved in some funny adventures and some not so funny adventures. Pe- people often ask me if those stories are real, and yes, they are 100% real. And then, you know, moving, going through his death and, and working on the grief, sitting in it, talking about it, are all things that really helped me heal to the point where I could be healed. You know, I'm always, we're always growing. But I think the perspective in the book, there are a lot of takeaways that I hope people, you know, will learn and use. And, um, it's, uh, it was pretty incredible to open the box of books, and I felt the burden of writing it kind of went off. And now it's kind of like a pain to purpose thing. So I hope by talking to people and getting our story out there that they will know, you know, that they aren't alone, that they're loved, and we're, we're together. And if I can find joy, and if you can find joy again in your life, anybody can That's right. That's right. It's possible. And it's the dance between grief and joy. It really is. Yes you don't have to give up your grief. In fact, you can't give it up. I, I No feel as a parent, you, you learn to carry it. I, Yeah. like to hand it over to someone and not miss my daughter anymore, not feel her loss, I will always feel that. But at the same time, I still have a life to live and other people whom I love and who love me Mhm I need to show up for, right? And you cannot show up for if you're by grief all the time Correct. And, you know, to enjoy our family here and live our life here is really critical. We're here, let's, let's really enjoy what we have here Because we know it's not forever. And it may sound morbid to talk about it, but after Emily's death, I thought, I do still do think a lot about my own death and the fact that we are eventually going to lose everyone we love. we may lose, we, we may die first, but I think it's just such, in our society, we're so, um, of those things. We wanna act like Mhm. live forever, and we're all on this rat race and this treadmill of doing, doing, doing, and life has sped up so much for everybody. Mhm it's finite, and I think people don't spend enough time thinking about that and how they really wanna live their lives. And this kind of loss forces you to do that Absolutely forces you to do that. And I'm grateful, and I'm, I can't speak for you, but I'm grateful that I do honor him, Richard, all the time. I th- I do talk h- you know, if a funny story comes up about him, I talk about him. And, and as you said, as a parent, you will always have him in your heart. They're always with you. You're always connected Do you see or have you learned about ways of s- or suicide prevention efforts that work? Because our, we know our suicide rates have skyrocketed and I don't know what direction they're going in right now, but Mhm your, what have you learned about that? So what I've learned about that, uh, the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention has a talk that they give called Talk Saves Lives, and that has been paramount in, I think, in many people's lives. That if you have someone who's struggling, as I said before, getting help is critical and, um, talking to them and communicating with them, and there's so many w- forms of communication. If you're not close to the person, you could just go over and watch a movie together, um, cook a meal together, just to start that communication. But y- you bringing up the word suicide isn't giving them an idea. They already h- if they have the idea in their head, they already have it. There's nothing you could say to take that out of their head if they're thinking about it, because people are afraid if they bring it up, they're gonna give them an idea. So just communicating, getting help, getting help for the family, getting help for the individual is paramount and, um, and really will help them hopefully prevent the suicide. In many cases it doesn't, but Right. And, and we wanna remind people about that resource of 988, which is such a great resource for It really is. and addiction issues. So Mm-hmm y- whether you or someone you love is struggling with mental health or addiction issues, pick up the phone or text Yes even have to talk to somebody if you don't want to, but Hmm just that little reach out can make a huge difference A huge difference. I actually gave two people last week the 988, and so please, please, please communicate with them. So that's wh- we can give resources and just, um, hopefully those will, those will help and support others Well, thank you so much for sharing Richard's story with us and for writing the book. And as I said, we'll put a link in the show notes and, Thank you it's just a, a, it's a beautiful tribute and also it's a message of hope in a situation that can seem hopeless to most people Yes, it is. Thank you so much for having me, and I really connected hearing about Emily. It's really nice to connect with another mom Yeah, I think it always is too. And I always say I'm sorry that we've had to meet under these circumstances because I wish it were different, but I'm so Yeah. to know you I'm so glad to know you too. Thank you so much You're welcome. And thank you again for listening to this episode of Grieving Out Loud. Tune in each week for a new episode or listen to hundreds of past episodes anytime on our website, emilyshope.charity. You'll find a link to our site in our show notes, along with links to other episodes we think you may find helpful. If you have a moment, we would really appreciate it if you would rate and review this podcast, and please share it with your friends and family. Thanks again for listening. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Wannenberg King and Kayli Fitz