What are the most common concerns or questions or stories you get from parents on social media? how do I get my son or daughter to get mental health help, to get substance use help, to get the job they need to get to put some structure in their life? How do I get them to stop gaming? Mhm to ask your advice for somebody who might be listening who has that maybe 25 to 30-year-old who is living in their basement, maybe smoking weed, maybe drinking too much, just, and maybe getting jobs, losing jobs. What can you do as a parent in those situations? Okay. So when I coach parents, what we do is focus on the three things we have control over. Um, and none of those things includes their behavior and the choices they're making. So the three things that I believe parents have control over after the age of 18 are how they show up in the relationship with their son or daughter, what they are willing to provide financially, emotionally, physically, and how they're responding to the words, actions, choices that their son or daughter is exhibiting. My guest today is Kim Muench, a certified parenting coach and the founder of Real Life Parent Guide, where she helps parents of emerging adults, those growing kids between the ages of 18 and 30, trade fear and second-guessing for calm and confident leadership. Kim raised five children of her own over nearly four decades, and she spent years walking families through the hardest of times, mental health struggles, and substance use concerns, strained communication, and that exhausting blur between helping and enabling. She's the author of Becoming Me While Raising You, and her new book, Lost in Place, comes out later this year with a roadmap for supporting and eventually launching an adult child who isn't launching in the way that you'd hoped. You may already know Kim from WFAA News in Dallas, where she's a regular parenting contributor, or from her community of more than half a million parents across TikTok and Meta platforms. Kim, welcome to Grieving Out Loud. So nice to talk to you, Angela. I'm excited to have this conversation with you I know I've seen you on Instagram, so I was excited to meet you. And this is a, a real thing that parents are dealing with these days, kids that are li- maybe living at home too long, can't go out on their own, and also kids st- struggling with mental health and substance use disorder. And I know you've got a lot of wisdom to share with our listeners and viewers today Yes. Personally and professionally, as we were talking about before we started recording is, yes, I have become the parent coach that I needed back in 2008 when I was walking this journey, you know, initially with my own oldest son. So yes, I, I now help parents in a way that I wish I had the support, um, back then, so Right. I think as a parent, I know when my daughter was struggling, i- it's just so hard to know where to turn. And I, I talk to so many parents now who tell me about a struggling kid and I don't have all the answers. I don't think anybody has all the answers, right? Each situation is different. But really, when I was dealing with my daughter in 2011 or '12, you know, through 2018 when we faced so many struggles, there, there weren't a lot of guideposts out there Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree with you. I can remember s- madly trying to search the internet in 2008, which obviously it's grown only exponentially since that time, but being overwhelmed because I was trying to manage my son's alcohol addiction from 1,200 miles away. He was living Wisconsin, which is our home state, and we had moved to Texas, and he was 20 years old, and, you know, things were happening really quickly, and I was trying to find the right… I knew he needed some kind of treatment. You know, I was trying to work with our insurance company, all of the things. So I have been that parent who's been in the panicky situation of trying to navigate. And, and back then there weren't as many programs, residential programs for this age group of, like, 18 to 25, 18 to 29. Now there are more choices, but that doesn't, that doesn't necessarily help you move your son or daughter from where they are now into wanting treatment or getting treatment I think that one of the biggest challenges when Emily was in high school, I had so much more control, and there are maybe things I should have done then when I had the say. And then once they turn 18, they're adults. And so whether that be they're struggling with mental health issues, and I've talked to lots of parents on this podcast who, you know, wanted to get their children into treatment for mental health or substance use disorder or both, because it really is the chicken and the egg. People, usually one causes the other, or one uses substances because of mental health issues. You feel so powerless as a parent of an adult child I think that's true, and I, I, it, it, there's so much brain development that takes place 18 to, you know, to the mid to late 20s so that while, yes, they're adults and some things are a struggle, like maybe getting information, you know, through their, getting some feedback from their therapist that you're paying for. You know, this, this can be a challenge for parents. However, um, I also see it, I, I also see that my son having mental health and substance issues at 8- say 19 to 21, I had more control even though he was an adult. I don't mean… I, I had more influence trying to give him some direction than I do earlier this year at 39 when he went through similar situation. I mean, I, I, I feel like older they get, the less control or influence. I, I guess I don't wanna say the word control. I wanna say that a parent would have Right. Be- in an, in an ideal adult ch- child re- parent-child relationship with a, a parent with an adult child, I'll get that out the way I wanna say it. In an ideal relationship for a parent with an adult child, you do become a consultant, right? You become more, you're there for advice. You're there for moral support. Sometimes you do have to give monetary support when you feel it's necessary or it's something that, you know, really you want to do. But really at some point, you know, you're, you're, you're kinda calling the shots for their lives, but the older they get, the less say you have Right. And I, I just wanna… May I share just a short story of kind of how I… I came to this realization when my son was 21 years old, before he went to treatment. I used to, I, I used to dread the phone ringing. I'm sure there are parents that can relate to that. I didn't know what was gonna come at me from the other end, you know. Was it a DUI? Was, was he in jail? We- it could've been a myriad of… Was he dead? I mean, it could've been, you know, a myriad of things. And I would not allow myself, I had four other children, young children at the time, and I would not allow myself to… I mean, I was just on top of everything, right? Always trying to… My, my day, everything, you know, had to be in order. I didn't want my kids to see me upset because of their older brother, yada, yada, all the things. So I wouldn't allow myself to have any real feelings until after I could hear my husband snoring next to me, and then I would cry, and I would often cry myself to sleep at night'cause I really wondered what would happen with my son, Nick. I real- I knew I didn't have any control, and I didn't know what would happen. And there came an, a night when I, again, cried myself to sleep. I woke up in the morning, and I hadn't had a dream. It wasn't a dream, but it was a knowing that I have no control. I knew that, right? I have no control over where Nick's life is going or what he might have to experience in the process of his life. What I do know is that I need to love him where he's at and not enable the self-destruction by saying yes to anything that might directly or indirectly contribute to that self-destruction. I love him this much, that our… I, I love him so much that I he may have to, a- he had at that point, he may have to walk through something extremely difficult, but I do not have a say, and I don't know why he's here. I don't know what he is meant to, to walk through. So every decision I made from that point on was will this lead to his self-destruction directly or indirectly? And if it will, say money, say bailing him out of jail, say whatever, then the answer is I can't participate in that. I love you too much to participate in that. And I realized every time I was putting that boundary in place, I was risking that he wouldn't see the other side of it. I was risking that he would go ahead and do the thing or find the money or whatever, you know, bottom line. And it was extremely difficult, but I also carried that through with the rest of my children who are now 21, you know, to 33 years of age. I cannot do something that I think would directly or indirectly cause you to self-harm or be on a self-destructive path. Those are such wise words. And like you said, easier said than done, right? It's, it's easy to think that, uh, but when you're worried that if you don't do the thing, you don't give them money or whatever it is, you could get a call the next day that your child has died from substances or some other situation. And, a- a- and you have to grapple with that. And I think our society too, and one thing I have noticed, and I've talked to so many other parents who've, who've lost kids to fentanyl or other substances on this podcast, is society tends to blame us as parents or our parenting. I even the other day, I responded to a Facebook message from somebody who says, "Well, you gotta have dinner every night with your kids, and you've gotta do the, you've gotta raise them right, and this won't be happening." And I'm like, even if they're raised right, this can happen in a family. It doesn't, or whatever right is. Um, so then to, to take on all of that, all the pressure that society is putting on us, especially as mothers Well, yes. A- a- and I mean, to your point, I mean, I get lots of comments on my Instagram videos, parents coming in like, "Well, I mean, if your kid's still at home at 25 and they're not doing anything but smoking weed and playing games, then clearly you should've done something a long time ago." You know, like, this, it's very… So I a- when parents come into coaching with me, I have to applaud their courage to admit that they're part of the problem, because they, they're, they are part of the issue, and the only thing they can do is work on their part in the issue, Right the fin- family dynamic that is being played out. And absolutely to your point, yes, parents are the foundation. Parent attachment to their children, obviously very important. And there are many other influences on our kids than just their parents. You can have family dinner every night. You can have great family vacations. You can have siblings that get along together. You can… All of those things can be in place, and there are outside events, people in their lives, situations that you don't know that they have, you know, encountered that they're reacting to that can lead them to have mental health and/or substance use issues. Whether it's because they have mental health and they're trying to cope with that and they're or they've decided to try something recreationally and one thing leads to another. I mean, Mhm is what it is. I don't think… I, I, I will go, and I don't, I don't know how you feel about this, but I, I think my son's… I don't know that there's anything I could have done to have prevented m- my son, because the first drop of alcohol he had at 15, he will say,"Mom," "It was unbelievable." Like, it, you know. And, and so of course we didn't give him permission to have alcohol at 15. I mean, that absolutely didn't happen. there are outside forces that are not, you know, within our realm as parents. Not to make excuses, I'm just saying there's, there's more influence than family Behind every overdose statistic is a person who was loved. The Into Light Project is putting a face to those we've lost, humanizing the addiction and drug crisis one story at a time. Artists create graphite portraits of people who have died from addiction, overdose, fentanyl poisoning, or drug-induced homicide. A professional writer crafts a narrative to go with each portrait so the person's story is told alongside their image. When it's finished, the family keeps the original artwork. Exhibits are opening in South Dakota, Illinois, Missouri, South Carolina, and Maine, and submissions are open right now. If you've lost someone you love to this crisis, this is a chance to make sure their story is seen and remembered. Submit your loved one's story to intolightproject.org/shareyourstory. That's intolightproject.org/shareyourstory, and we've put a link in the show notes to this podcast. No, and there's no perfect parent out there. Parents are human beings and we do the best we can. I can't think of anything I could have done if I… There's some things I know now that I didn't know back when I was dealing with my daughter's struggles that maybe I could have done differently knowing what I know now, but I didn't know it then. And I was always looking for the right answer. I took her to counselor after counselor. You know, we, we tried so many different things, and I, I feel like there's a lot of parents who do that. And when the result… I'm so glad that, that Nick is alive, um, but when the result is death, you, you then feel so much shame and blame internally. Uh, I think we have to work through that. And I, now that eight years have gone by, I can honestly look at the situation and say, "I love my daughter." In fact, I'm going through… I'm downsizing, so I'm going through her Rubbermaid containers, and I'm finding cards that I gave her with how much I loved her and all these experiences that she had. And I, I know she had a great childhood. And I'm not a perfect parent. Show me one, right? Um, but Right I don't think there's anything within my power that could have actually changed the course when it came to substances for her. and I think parents need to come to that realization. And then we've got how troubling the world can be. I, I just think there's so much beyond our control. And I was working on, you know, you talked about, you know, loving your son, but not enabling him, and I w- was working so hard on detachment. Because when you do have a child, before Emily died, I was working on detachment, wanting the best for her, wanting, you know, to help w- with whatever is best for her, but not being so overwhelmed by what was happening in her life that it permeated every aspect of mine. Because it's like a dark cloud following you around when you have a, one child. You could, you have a… I had other kids at home. I had three other kids that I needed to take care of and model for. But it's like this terrible dark cloud is following you around, and it's so hard to get out from under that cloud Mm-hmm. I, yes, and I, I work with parents on a regular basis. I mean, this is what is happening with the par- I mean, this is the, the parent that I work with, and trying to help them also see that you're also modeling for all of your kids, but the, the one that's using or, you know, struggling with mental health in particular, you're modeling what stress resilient looks like, what stress resilience looks like, and how to take good care of yourself. So if you become this being that is so distraught and so, so over-functioning emotionally for everybody else that you're not taking care of y- what are you, what are you modeling? And I, I believe that I'm a model for my two-year-old, my 12-year-old, my 22, my 42-year-old. Isn't gonna matter. I'm… That doesn't mean that I will always be perfect. I just want to be conscious what I am modeling and who I am being in any given moment Can you share with me what happened with Nick and his story? Um, yes. So I, and try not to go too deeply into it, but I ha- I had a very, um, middle class upbringing. I went to private high school and went off to college. By Christmas of my freshman year, I found out I was pregnant, and my parents did not necessarily care for the guy I was dating because he wasn't going to school and wasn't really working and, you know, whatnot. So bottom line, um, I end up, you know, obviously sharing with them that I'm pregnant, and my dad made the decision that if I was gonna keep my child, that I needed to move out of the family home and figure it out. And at 18, um, I my son, and I stayed at my parents or our family home until the night before he was born. And then I had this tiny apartment that, um, the reason that I had that was because I applied for welfare benefits. So as someone who did not know what that was growing up, um, someone did share with me, "Hey, if, you know, you need to leave home, there is a way that you can finance how to do that." So bottom line, I applied for welfare and had this apartment, and the first couple years his, his dad and I were together, but it was a very emotionally and then became physically abusive relationship, and once it became physically abusive, I decided I have to get out of this. During that time, I never saw, uh, my son's father take anything out on him. It was always me. What I failed to realize was that once I had gotten myself out of the relationship, um, that abuse tur- was turned toward my son. And so for many years, we co-parented, and my son would come back from visits, and he'd always be a little off for a couple of days. I mean, we couldn't quite figure it out, and of course, I got married and had four other kids, so there was, know, many kids. There was a… As you know, was a lot going on in the world by the time Nick-- Or our, our family life. By the time Nick was a teenager, he started to exhibit some signs of anxiety and depression, so of course, I took him to a counselor. We did some family counseling. I even did some counseling with his dad, the things. Um- My husband ended up getting a job right after Nic graduated from high school, and he-- we told him he needed to pay rent if he was gonna stay at home and, you know, get a job and whatnot, if he wasn't going to school. um, decided to move in with his dad because his dad doesn't have any rules. And so he moved out of our home, and I think that's when things escalated for him in terms of probably it was while his dad had no rules, he also was not an easy man to live with, and I think that exacerbated my son's drinking. Um, bottom line, we moved to Texas. Nic did not move with us. And a year after we were in Texas, I got a call from Nic saying, "I have lost the last few days of my life. This isn't the first time. Um, I need help." And that was the first time that while I-- there were signs, I was confronted with him asking for help because he had been blacked out for days Um, that then ensued six or eight months of escalated and me flying across the country at times to put him into medical detox and, you know, lots of things. Um, he did end up going to inpatient rehab in South Texas, so far enough away from us that I couldn't, like, rescue him out of treatment, but, um, close enough for us to participate in, like, the family programming and stuff like that. So after he came out of treatment, he went into sober living, um, and then has stayed in that area of the country. He never did go back to our home state. He has stayed here. he did, he did well, um, for many years, at least as far as I knew, was f- financially independent. He got married, blah, blah, blah. In the past couple of years, um, he has… I, I believe that he has not dealt with some of the trauma that he experienced probably growing up at the hands of his dad, who did pass away many years ago from alcoholism. So his dad has been, has been gone for many years at this point. Um, but reg- um, so the last or two, he has struggled with other substances, so it's not alcohol. um, you know, things like, uh, Kratom, 7OH, um Things you could probably get legally in the gas station, but they can be just as addictive. led to other things. Yes, but yes, yes, things that, yes, I think it started with that type of thing. And so he, he has worked very hard. At the moment, is-- he's continued to be financially independent. been in and out of work, but w-we have-- he-- our family has rallied around him. And the, the thing that's really different now is that when, when he was going through this as a 20, 21, 22-year-old, our kids were little. Our kids were high school, middle school, and, and preschool. Um, now they've only experienced Nick in his functioning ways. But over the last year, things have, again, gone very up and down with him at times, and I haven't been able to shield other kids from seeing the reality of their brother and experiencing his dependence on substances. So it's, it's actually-- it's b- it's brought a lot of good conversation with our family and w- and all of the rest of them have rallied around him, and I think that has helped him this time around to really want to do better and get off of substances. Some of the substances he's on are not easy to get off of, and they're gonna take time to get off of. But in general, he's doing better at the moment If you or someone you love is struggling with substance use disorder, please seek help. With fentanyl in the drug supply, there's no time to wait. We have a list of helpful resources on our website, emilyshope.charity. You can find a link in our show notes. So, you know, in Nick's case, he has, uh, a few things stacked against him, the genetics of his dad, his father died of alcoholism, and also trauma and grief. Grie- there's a lot of grief behind every addiction. But I think as parents, if, if our kid, adult kid is doing well, they struggled with substances when they were younger, but they're, they've been doing well for a few years, then all of a sudden to have that setback has to be really frustrating and frightening It was frightening and it was, 'cause we really, there was a, a certain experience we had earlier this year with him that was incredibly scary. But in that moment when it confronted me again, 'cause I didn't, again, see it coming, um, I was very clear with what I was willing and not willing to do. My boundaries were very clear. I basically said to him,"You have two choices. go to the emergency room with me right now, or you pack your stuff and get in your car, and the second you drive away, I'm calling 911 'cause you're not fit to drive." I said it like that, and he went off the rails and, "Mom, blah, blah, blah," and, you know, "You don't… Uh, let me explain to you," or, "Give me a third option," or, you know, whatever it was. He ended up choosing to go to the ER with me in that moment. but what it, what it did help me, and while it was a very challenging, difficult day for many reasons, what it did was reaffirm the work that I do with parents now and coaching them. I, I, I hate that I had this experience again, but it solidified for me exactly what I would do i- in a, in a very difficult situation, um, that I wouldn't live with or compromise or walk around eggshells around… I, I, I'm, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna compromise, not even… It, it's not even who I am. It's, it's like I'm not going to participate your self-destruction. not, I'm not gonna have that in front of me because I love you too much to pretend in, on any level that this is okay that I don't… Like, I c- I can be okay. I, I just can't be okay with it Yes, you set clear boundaries and you were able to stick to those despite we know so many people suffering from substance use disorder, part of it is the manipulation, right? They're gonna try to manipulate, and a lot of adult kids will try to manipulate their parents to get what they want. So Mhm I'm glad that you're able to do that and stay strong in those situations, 'cause that can be a very hard thing to do. Mhm to ask your advice for somebody who might be listening who has that maybe 25 to 30-year-old who is living in their basement, maybe smoking weed, maybe drinking too much, just, and maybe getting jobs, losing jobs. What can you do as a parent in those situations? Okay. So when I coach parents, what we do is focus on the three things we have control over. Um, and none of those things includes their behavior and the choices they're making. So the three things that I believe parents have control over after the age of 18 are how they show up in the relationship with their son or daughter, what they are willing to provide financially, emotionally, physically, and how they're responding to the words, actions, choices that their son or daughter is exhibiting. So focusing on what you control. And under the umbrella of how you show up in the relationship, I talk about the four C's. Clarity, becoming very clear in what you will and won't support. Calm, calm even when the other person is shutting down, blaming, exploding, whatever it is they're doing, you practicing staying calm. Third is coming from a place of confidence. so often by the time they come into coaching with me, they are-- they've tried everything they can think of. lost all their confidence as a parent, and they're parenting from fear. They're parenting from the anxious chatter in their head. They're parenting a place that breeds disconnection with their son or daughter. So coming back to and learning how to become a confident parent again, a leader, not controlling, but someone who is leading as opposed to walking on eggshells around the situation. And then fourth, consistency. And this seems to be one of the more difficult C's for a parent to-- that… and, and one that they will admit that they're not doing. Their words and their actions necessarily aligned. And when they begin to really align their words and their actions, then-- and they consistently do that, their-- things will change. It may not change the way they want them to. Like, son or daughter may not all of a sudden check all of the boxes that the parent wants, things will absolutely change if you focus on what you control I think it's so important that parents know that they can't solve someone else's pro- I mean, you know that logically. Like, I know I can't solve your problems , you know? I just, I just met you, but I know I can't solve your problems. You know you can't solve mine. But somehow we think because they're our kids, that we can solve it for them Yes. Yes, and again, going back to that one wake-up morning I had, I re- had this realization that I don't know why Nick is here. I don't know why Nick came into the world, what he's meant to experience, and all I do know is that I'm gonna love him where he's at at the moment and not do anything that would directly or indirectly contribute to his path, 'cause he's on a self-destructive path And I could see your point about parenting out of fear. I could see parents saying something like, "Well, I can't do that. I can't, I can't do what you're asking of me," because they're so afraid. What, those, those different steps that you said, because they're so afraid, "If I do that, they're gonna die. If I do that, they're gonna leave my house and never talk to me again. If I do that…" How do you get around those voices and the fear that can permeate when you don't have a kid that's doing well? I mean, I will say there comes a point at which that is a distinct possibility. There is no, there's no way of me guaranteeing that you asking them to leave or, you know, them leaving of their own and not talking to you, like that is all a possibility. the reality is that at home, you're them to continue, I mean, I don't, I know you don't want them to be doing it, but they're doing it anyway. You're giving them the space self-destruct. given moment, you, you could be in a situation where because you didn't do everything you could, and sometimes that means not allowing someone to live at home if they're going to be self-destructive, you could end up in the same situation. And maybe you Again, I don't, I, this is not an easy decision, and it's certainly not one that comes without a lot of you know, a lot of, a lot of trying other things first. But sometimes the only shot that you might have their deciding they do need help and committing to it if they don't have that place I, you know Are you ready to protect the next generation from the dangers of substance use? Emily's Hope has created a comprehensive K through 12 substance use prevention curriculum designed to educate, empower, and equip students with the tools they need to make healthy choices. Our age appropriate lessons start in kindergarten and build through high school using science, real stories, and interactive learning to help kids understand their bodies, brains, and risk of drug use. We're already reaching thousands of students across multiple states, and we're just getting started. Visit emilyshopeedu.org to learn more, and share our curriculum with your school administrators and counselors. At Emily's Hope, we believe prevention begins with education. Let's work together to keep our kids safe. Right, and we wanna remind people certainly people can get drugs off the internet and die at home. I mean, it, it, whether you're providing them with that shelter or not, the worst can happen anywhere, and by enabling your child, you're really doing them a disservice. And I think it's hard for parents to look at it that way Yeah. I, no, I, and that's exactly the word I would use is you're doing… You're not, you're not only doing a disservice to them, you're doing a ser- disservice to yourself. You're, I mean, you just, you are, and that is, it is an extremely difficult place to be as a parent. And, and just like you can't do their work for them, their work is to decide if they want to heal and take, know, take the steps to, to do that really difficult thing and to get off whatever substances they're on. Your work is to set healthy boundaries and to hold yourself to those boundaries And also, I think parents need to know that your anger and your punishment, whatever that punishment might be, won't fix them either. I think that that's really important for, because I think in our society, I know when things fir- when things first started to not go well with Emily, I c- people kept telling me, "Well, you gotta, you know, punish more, ground more, do this more," and none of that stuff worked. Um, and I, I ac- once she left my house, actually, and I, I just still knew there were issues with her, I always approached her from a standpoint of love, with boundaries, but I'm so glad I did that because she didn't, she knew that I loved her. But the, the punishment and the, didn't, didn't work, and it actually just made our relationship worse Yeah. I've, I, yeah. And I, that seems to be, you know, we still have this mentality, um, of like just tough, tough our way through it or, you know, squash the feeling. Just come, you know, we have to find a way to discipline this out of them or whatever it is, and that is, that is not helpful. You can be angry, but y- and you can have all the feelings, right? As a parent, like we can have all the feelings and come from a place of love because punishment, all, uh, they, there's a level at which they aren't happy with themselves. Who knows what's going on? But they're… And the last thing you wanna do is add another level of shame and, you know, self-loathing to someone who probably feels about themselves and the choices they're making Right. Right. And what about as a parent? What do you suggest that parents do to cope with the guilt and the shame they may have that their child didn't, uh, you know, isn't doing what they are supposed to do in this world? And I think that's a big part of it. People keep these things hidden, and they don't wanna talk about it, and they live with a, parents live with a lot of guilt and shame Yeah. And, and again, I think these are two of the least productive emotions that one can have, and I, and I, I understand why they, why it happens. But I think part of it is because we live in a culture that compares. We're always comparing ourselves and our kids to other people and whatnot. feel very fortunate that even when Nick was going through his mental health and substance use issues as an early 20-something, um, for whatever reason, I did not feel… I mean, I could have felt extremely guilty about, you know, leaving his father and, you know, whatever transpired during visits when he was with his father, whatever. Like, I… That would have eaten me up, and I wouldn't have been the parent I needed to be. So what I ask parents to think about is the guilt, the shame, the sadness, whatever it is in the situation, find a way to channel that into something more productive. What would be more…'Cause, 'cause guilt is not productive unless you have done something intentionally and you can change your behavior. Right. That's the only thing guilt is good for. If, if you did something intentionally wrong, and that's a na- that's a good human reaction to feel guilty about it, right? To try to change it. But this is a different kind of situation we're talking about. No, I don't believe any parent is really out there trying to harm their child in any way Yeah. And I mean, I, there were so many things I didn't know. And, and I, to go back to your point earlier, that parents do the best they can with what they know in any given moment, and based on their life experience. know? I, I, I didn't have the experience of addiction in, in, in my, the, my family growing up or like, like I, I didn't know anything about it. Not that's, you know, that's s- I was doing the best I could, you know, to meet him with what I knew about him,'cause none of us knows our kids or anybody really except what they're willing to reveal about themselves or what we can see in their behavior. We don't know everything that goes on in their heads or what they're experiencing Right. And I mentioned, uh, in your intro that, you know, you do parenting advice on television, your, uh, meta platforms, Facebook and Instagram. What are the most common concerns or questions or stories you get from parents on social media? how do I get my son or daughter to get mental health help, to get substance use help, to get the job they need to get to put some structure in their life? How do I get them to stop gaming? Um, and substances, how do I get them move away from these things? That is probably the most prevalent question, and the answer to that is there's no miracle short three-step process to that. And that's why I circle back to we have to, we have to concentrate as parents on the things that we control. How you show up, what you're willing to provide, and how you're responding to their words and choices and actions. so that is something that comes up prevalently. I, I would say that's probably the biggest thing that, you know, parents wanna know And I think going back to your story about Nick and his recent struggles is that you have to be okay with not being able to control the outcome, not being able to get them to do the thing that you want and know they should do, the best thing for themselves. Because nobody can do that for another human being Right. That, a- and, and as, I don't know, we're under some delusion as parents thinking that we have you know, control or more say over our kids' experience and direction. And parents will tell you, there comes a point at which illusion of control you thought you had when they were younger is gone at this point. It's gone. Right And it's not ours, it's not ours to, um, to have a say over, quite frankly. It's not, it's not our life to have a Right. It's not our life. It's their life. And we certainly don't wanna see them suffer. We don't wanna suffer alongside them. We don't wanna lose them. But we really can only control our reaction to things with anything in life, and I think people forget that when it comes to their kids Yeah. Can I, can I share something that's actually the last page of my book that you mentioned earlier? It's, which is really my parenting memoir, um, from 2021 called Becoming Me While Raising You. But it's so relevant to what we just said here, and I think it'll give your listeners something to really think about. Um, it, this was a quote that was downloaded to me. I think I was vacuuming on a Saturday, some random thing, you know? But it's, "Our children come through us, not for us, except for the lessons they reflect to us during their journey an effort to grow us up along the way." So I will often say to parents, "What is this situation trying to teach you about life?" And about yourself. And about yourself. Like you said, you became yourself. And I often think I became so much more of myself as a mother. I, I figured out why I was here and what I was supposed to be doing. And, um, I think all of those things can happen through parenthood, but it's also can be very tough to learn some of those lessons, especially when the ch- it's challenging. It's not all gonna be some easy thing where everybody is taking step A, B, and C to get to D, right? Like we're supposed to Yes. And, and, and when I look back at my own life, like when I look at being 18 and pregnant and having to try and figure that out, and how emotionally challenging and growing that experience is, it's in the times that we, that things are challenging in our lives that we have the opportunity to grow. We typically aren't growing as much d- when everything is happening for us in the right way, in the right time, in the right order, and, you know, all is well. We grow when we're faced with difficult challenges Well, thank you for sharing your wisdom and your knowledge with us and our, all of our podcast audience. We really appreciate it Angela, it's been a delight to talk to you And thank you for listening to this episode of Grieving Out Loud. We hope you found it helpful. We've included links in the show notes to a few other episodes we think you may enjoy, along with a link to Kim's website where you can order her books. If you have a moment, we would really appreciate it if you would rate and review this podcast and share this episode with your friends and family. Thank you again for listening. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Wundenberg King and Kayli Fitz