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you have this brand-new baby, and you think, "Oh, if I love hard enough, if I do all the right things, if I try hard enough, everything's gonna be okay. They're gonna turn out fine, and everything's gonna be okay." But that's, one, there's no guarantee of that, and two, that's just not a measure of your, of your love or ability as a parent For nearly 30 years, Stephanie Renner built a career solving problems. As a lawyer and advisor, she helped CEOs, entrepreneurs, and organizations navigate some of their biggest challenges. But when her own son faced a mental health crisis, she discovered there was one case she couldn't solve. I really had kind of an things that I was beating myself up about, there's not a single one of them that I know would've changed the outcome. Right. It's like be- even yeah done A, B, or C, this still could've happened anyway. That's what we Right preface any of those thoughts with, I had to understand that I don't have control. There's something very self-centered about the idea that we could have controlled the outcome, right? And we all have it about all kinds of things. I think it's a protective factor. I think our Yes uh, it's a protective thing. We think we can control so much in life and, and we can't when I came to this realization that I didn't control all these things, like, none of these… I can't point to any of these things that this is the thing that would've saved him My mind went to like, well, okay, did any of it matter at all? Like, why do we even try if we can't guarantee that we're gonna save them? And, you know, of course it matters, and the truth is sometimes they do make a difference, but ultimately your love is not measured by the outcome" Your love is not measured by the outcome." That is a great I really like that. Welcome back to Grieving Out Loud. I'm your host, Angela Kennecke. My guest is Stephanie Renner, a keynote speaker, attorney, nonprofit founder, and the creator of the Regret to Resilience method, a coaching model that helps people release guilt and shame and move forward with renewed purpose and authentic confidence after trauma or loss. Stephanie's understanding of this journey is deeply personal. She lost her 18-year-old son, Jordan, to suicide, and in the couple of years that followed, she lived through the crushing weight of grief, guilt, and regret. What she discovered along the way reshaped how she thinks about healing. Resilience is not found by returning to the person you once were. It's found by accepting your story and reclaiming your sense of self. That discovery became the foundation for her seven-pillar framework, a set of truths that guide people through releasing what was never theirs to carry and moving forward with radical honesty and self-compassion. I am so grateful to have you with us today. Let's just jump right into the conversation Yeah. I'm glad to be here. Thank you for having me Oh, you're so welcome. I think in both of our cases, uh, our children died from what I would call a stigmatized death. In my daughter's case, it was from fentanyl poisoning. She was using drugs. In your son's case, suicide. And that's different than losing a child to cancer or some other kind of illness or a, or a car crash Mm-hmm. Well, it's interesting you say that because I sometimes compare our situation to losing a child to cancer, and here's why. Um, not, not every kid is open about their mental health struggles, right? Jordan started being very open about his from the time he was 11 years old. So, you know, and the suicidal ideations and the threats and those things started that young. So I think when you start that early, it's kind of like having a diagnosis of a disease, 'cause it is a disease. Mental health, you know, men- mental illness is a disease. As And yes. Right. Right. hand, right? So Right. So you always know what the potential outcome is, and obviously you hope that that's never going to be the case, but, you know, you're hoping for a remission or you're hoping for getting past this, whatever it is. I think it's different than a parent who loses a child in a car crash, like out of nowhere or, or to suicide when they weren't expecting it or everything seemed okay or … I mean, I don't, it doesn't make it any easier, I just think they're different experiences. Do you know what I mean? And Jordan, he started displaying some symptoms at 11. Like, tell me what those were. I think it would be interesting for parents who are listening or even parents with younger children, like, what was happening? Well, um, he always was a little bit… He was a very friendly, outgoing kid, but a little awkward. And, you know, I think we now know that he was likely high-functioning sort of on the autism spectrum. Um, he never had a official diagnosis, but his psychiatrist felt the same way we did. That didn't happen until a little later that we really figured this all out. He really started struggling with friendships, and he started expressing, um, that he wanted to hurt himself. He, he was very open. There wasn't a lot of guessing about what was going on . And, you know, that's a gift and, and not, because that just causes you to worry all the time. So there'd be a lot of phone calls of, "Come get me at school," those types of things that you're an attorney, I'm a journalist, we both know how to research things. We Mm-hmm. know how to find solutions to problems, and I Mm-hmm. this way. My daughter started rebelling in high school and acting out in ways that were so unexpected to me. You know, I just Uh-huh. it at all. And I kept looking for solutions. I took her to counselor after counselor. I tried tough love stuff. I tried invoking the law. I tried all kinds of things that I thought Mm-hmm. would put her on the right course. And I think it's really hard when you're able to figure things out in certain parts of your life, like your career, school, whatever it might be, but you can't get the answers when it comes to somebody that you are supposed to love and protect Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I, very similar experience. Jordan was very much a rule follower, very smart, did well in school, all, you know, all the things, um, until probably 15 or 16, and it started with… Well, it started with a little bit of rebellion, but eventually what we knew was the real rebellion was smoking marijuana, and I actually heard you talk on another, yeah another episode about… I, I didn't know what I know now, and, uh, I had a therapist friend actually who wanted me to come down a lot harder on him than I did at the time, uh, 'cause she tried to tell me some of the things that I now know about the damage it does to a kid's brain at that age. And some of that research was still new, and it wasn't that I turned my he- a blind eye to it. It's just that fight went on for, you know, two to three years, and at some point I, I stopped fighting 'cause I just didn't know what else to do. I'm not saying that's the, that's the thing that, you know, caused or didn't cause whatever, but, um, Well, I, uh, yeah we know now, it certainly could have contributed if there were Yes It just like as in, in my daughter's case contributed to setting her up for addiction, her, her Mm-hmm. brain. And certainly if there are other things going on, I mean, you can't deny that there's a culpability with marijuana when it comes to kids' brains and out- and, and poor outcomes Yes. And we, and we get a lot of mes- confusing messages about that, right? Because there's this message that it's not addictive, and, and I don't care what grown adults do. I have no judgment on what grown adults are doing with it. I say that Yeah. People come Yeah the marijuana people come after me. I'm like, "I, I'm not going after the 30-year-old who's smoking marijuana or wh- or Right it, it legally. I don't, I don't care about that, but I do care about kids, and I wanna protect kids' brains." Yes. Yeah we're so accepting of it in this society. And you're right, it was a huge battle. E- Emily was part of a culture that really glorified marijuana and the whole, the whole Mm-hmm. the music, everything around it, the clothing. There's a whole culture around it that's can be very appealing to kids Yes. Yes. And that, that very much happened with Jordan, and I, I just, I didn't know what to do. You know, every kid is so different, and what, what you're saying about, you know, we, we research and we think we have answers and we're good at solving problems, and, and everyone around us lots of times has answers too, right? I mean, I got lots of… Not, not from, like, really outside people, but family and friends who meant well. Like, "Take his phone away, do this, do that." Well, I mean, I tried all the things. Yeah was the one thing that I always pushed back on 'cause I was like, "Look, that is my o- last lifeline," right? Like, um, but everybody had a solution, and I, I just wanted to say, if you think I haven't tried that yet, or, you know, if it's so obvious to you, it's obvious to me too, and I've tried it. Or I just know my kid, and I know what works and what doesn't. Or, well, I know what doesn't work. I clearly didn't know what did work. But, um, yeah. It's a very helpless feeling, and it's very lonely It is. It is. You feel like, and I've said this before, when something is wrong with your child and not going well and you can't solve it, fix it, make it better, it's like a dark… E- even if you have other children and a job and all these other things going on in your life, it's like a dark cloud is just following you around everywhere you go. And, and I lived with that for years. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I talk a lot about to 21, about seven years. Yeah. Yeah talk a lot about that and about also the chaos it causes in your home, right? I mean, I don't, you know, I have another child and, um, he's a great kid and he, I, I saw him retreat in during that time 'cause it was scary and there was Right chaos and fighting and arrests and whatever, you know? Kids yeah those things. Same, same with Emily. And you know, we're talking about two different manners of death. Uh, one unintentional, one in- intentional, but it doesn't matter because it's the brain that's been impacted and, and affected, and it affects everybody in the family, and the other kids that trauma and carry that with them for years. Absolutely. Yeah Yeah. Ugh. so sorry. And then ultimately, what was going on with Jordan before his death, it was just a couple years ago. So you're re- you're relatively Yeah in early, I would say, complicated grief. I call Mm-hmm. complicated grief because w- it's, it's, it is complicated. It's, it's very hard on a parent, a mother, and you second-guess everything that you've ever done. You wonder what you could have, would have, should have. What, you know, maybe what you did do that you shouldn't have. All of those things. And for you, it's only been two years. So I'm just also impressed that you're talking to me today, and that you also have started doing something with your grief Duh. Well, you know, it's a different experience for everyone, and I say all the time, who knows? Maybe tomorrow I won't be able to get out of bed, and I'll just stay there for a year. I don't know. I mean, I don't think that's gonna happen. happen. know, I know, but you know what I mean? Like, you, you can't ever predict what's going to happen or how the grief is gonna hit you next. Yeah and I, I still think that I started some of the grieving process before I lost him, and it's not that I thought it was inevitable to lose him, it's just I had lost the child I thought I was going to have. And, um, so some of these things I had kind of dealt with and thought through. I'm also just a very verbal processor, and I've spent a lot of time in therapy, that type of thing. But, you know, again, it's just a different process for everyone. For me, I could not let myself drown in what I call the if onlys, you know, the what ifs, because it, it just keep you stuck. And I really had kind of an epiphany that all of these things that I was beating myself up about, there's not a single one of them that I know would've changed the outcome. Right. It's like be- even yeah done A, B, or C, this still could've happened anyway. That's what we Right preface any of those thoughts with, and I really try to teach people that through my grief training, that even, even if, even if you could've, you know, controlled everything in that child's life, even if you Mm-hmm. done this or that, it, it still could've happened anyway. Even if I, we could've gotten Emily that intervention that we were three days away from holding Hmm. she died, she could've still died from fentanyl poisoning at a later date. You Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm there's no, none of us have, you know, this magical power to make things better with our children. One thing you said I wanna touch on about losing Jordan before you lost him, because I felt that way. I remember at one point Emily had just disappeared for three or four days, and I was in her room and I was getting her stuff together because I th- I said, "She can't live at my house if she's not gonna come home," because what am I role modeling for the other kids? She was, Mm-hmm. was, had graduated, had just graduated from high school. And I remember just standing in her room just crying, feeling like my child had died. Like, the child that I was so close to, the child that all of my hopes and dreams and all of what I thought her hopes and dreams were, and I know they were actually, 'cause I've been going through some of her older stuff recently 'cause I'm in the process of downsizing and going through, you know, old things, which can be very painful. But Mm-hmm. all those hopes and dreams, and I had them for her, too, and they were all gone at this point, and I, I really felt like I had lost her Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, it's, um, and I don't, I don't wanna talk about what someone else feels, but my ex-husband and I have processed differently, and we, we get along and talk a lot about this. But he really, when Jordan passed, was still grieving that little boy Right this ideal of who he thought he was. Um, and I, I, you know, I remember looking at him one day and saying, "I already grieved that kid." 'Cause I… KARA And he was living with me the past couple years full time, so that might have been part of it. But I had really kind of already come to this acceptance that, okay, that little boy all the way up until middle school that I, who I thought he was going to be is not who he is. That doesn't mean I don't… I mean, I thought if he ever came through this, he's gonna be even better, right, than I ever thought. But, um It wasn't like you gave up on him. I didn't give No, not at all feel as if I had lost her at that point. I Yeah like I didn't give up on her. I never gave up on her. I was Yeah reaching out and always trying, that things could have a better outcome, right? Yeah. a better outcome, Yeah. So it's interesting you say that about being three days away from intervention, and I don't know what that, like, what the story is there, but I know that about three days before Jordan died, I felt like we had kind of turned a corner. W- I mean, we had a very, um, a moment that was really hard, but when we got through it, I felt like I w- he had some hope. So Ah. had… I'd picked him up from, like, a court hearing and, or I'd taken him and we were leaving, and I was expressing that I was really concerned about him and asked, you know, "Do we need to go to the hospital?" Like, I, just the things you're saying, where you are, I'm a little scared. You know, he kinda convinced me that that wasn't the case. But then he said to me,"Mom, I just feel…" And he's 18, by the way."I feel like it's just too late for me to learn how to be a normal person." And then he also said that it was too late for him to go to school 'cause he ta- he graduated and he was that year, like he barely graduated. He's a brilliant kid. There's no reason he should have not been the top of his class in high school, right? But he had given up. So he also told me it's too late for him to go to college. Like he w- like he just blew that already. I was like, "Well, unfortunate he saw it that way. I yeah. Yeah." But we had… But that started a great conversation where I was like, "It's not too late. Like, here's the things we can do." I knew where he wanted to go. "Here's this therapist that deals with people who've been diagnosed later, you know, and as an adult with being on the spectrum. Like, n- none of this is too late. There's lots of hope. You have your whole life." And I really saw hope in him, and we were talking about next steps, and he was really seemed to be on board with it. And, you know, I think it's a familiar story from other mothers I've talked to. I think some- someone who completes suicide is so good at hiding, so is the addict by the way, Mm-hmm. um, reality or the truth from the people they love and I think that kind of goes with it for some reason. I, I don't know why, but it does seem to be the case Mm-hmm. If you're a mom who has lost a child, I wanna tell you about something close to my heart. Some dear friends of mine, mothers who have also lost children to fentanyl poisoning or overdose, are hosting the Sisters of Strength Warrior Moms Retreat this October 9th through the 11th at beautiful Wildwood Hills Ranch in St. Charles, Iowa. This is a weekend created by grieving mothers for grieving mothers. You'll spend time in nature, ride horseback, hike, paint, and create keepsakes in memory of your child, all alongside women who truly understand the depth of a mother's love and the weight of her loss. This weekend isn't about forgetting. It's about remembering with love, honoring our children's legacies, and discovering that even in loss, we rise together as warriors, as mothers, and as sisters. Please join us. You'll find the link and all the details in the show notes of this episode. I hope you'll consider giving yourself this gift If you or someone you love is struggling with mental health or substance use, please know help is available. Don't wait. Every life matters. We have a list of helpful resources on our website, emilyshope.charity. You can find a link in the show notes, So it was Mother's Day. Oh. I know. Oh, the last I know. alive was Mother's Day. I, Yeah. so sorry. Well, uh, I know he died the day, the night before or the afternoon before. I don't know the exact time, but, um, yeah. But, you know, and you… There's no way you can't go down that, like, rabbit hole of, oh, this, was this some kind of message, and whatever. But I've, I've made peace with that for a lot of reasons. But, But, but back up a minute. yeah how, how, how do you make peace with that? Well, um, I don't know what, what you believe about people communicating with you or keep sending you signs or whatever, but, you know, I had, I had … At one point, I had asked him for a sign to tell me that it didn't, that wasn't what it was about, and I felt like I got one. Um, then a few months went by, and I was in my head about it again, and I was in my car, and I was talking to him out loud and saying, "I just need you to I need to know for sure. This is, like, taking my brain over again." And I got home. A few hours later, his friend, Heaven, who is a few years older than him and has a little boy he used to help babysit, called me out of the blue just to chat, make sure I was okay, and then she starts sort of being really uncomfortable when she's trying to get off the phone, and she says, "There's something I wanna say to you, but I haven't wanted to put this idea in your head, but I just decided that you're a mother and I'm a mother, so I know you're thinking it." And she said, "You know he didn't know it was Mother's Day, right?" Wow And I said, "Well, I do now." Did you I mean knew that or did she just have a feeling? She just had a feeling. But I mean, this was like September. There was no, no one was thinking about Mother's Day, right? Yeah. And I had just said, "I need you to tell me clearly that this was not, that's not what this is about." And she calls me out of the blue and says that. I mean, no, I'm sure… Right. There are people who are gonna think all kinds of things, but that's, that's what it, it got me there. It Yeah people think. What matters is if it was helpful to you, it as a sign. I mean, there's no reason not to. And so, and I believe in those things 'cause I had some very unusual things happen to me, especially in those f- early years that Mm-hmm. talking about, the first three or four years after her death. It's been eight years for me since Emily died, and I can't believe it's been that long. But, I say take those things. Yeah so going back to his death, though, I don't wanna, I don't wanna cut that short. So That's okay it's Mother's Day. Did you find your son or you find out he's I did. Yeah. Um, so I had come home … So let's, he had moved out of the house, and then moved back in probably a month before that, he had moved back in. And so he was staying in my basement, but the, the room that used to be his room didn't have any furniture in it. He had been, like, sleeping on the couch out in the open area, and there were always a bunch of other kids there, too, because he knew I was never gonna say no to these kids who, like, were, I don't know, b- being kicked out of their house or were in between foster homes or whatever. He just seemed … I always say he collected strays, and I don't mean that as a derogatory term towards any person, just that he always brought people into his life, right? So, um, I had come home late Saturday from being out of town, and I thought he was at work, and he had told me that his friend was taking him to work. So I didn't think anything of him not being in the basement, and the door to that room was sort of cracked open. I walked by it because I didn't ever go in there. It was, the room was empty. And the next morning when he wasn't there, I couldn't find him, and he normally, he worked a third shift, and so he was

usually home at, like, 6: 23:40

00 in the morning or something. I couldn't find him, and, um, I was texting him. I was texting his friends, you know. His Life360 said he was at my house, but he liked to know, like he liked to manipulate that sometimes, so I di- I just assumed he wasn't there. I thought I'd looked everywhere. And, um, so we were going to go see my mom. She was in assisted living. So I finally said to my other son, like, "We gotta go. We're meeting, you know, auntie, and your cousin's there." And we walked down the basement stairs to go to the garage, and I looked at that door, and I thought, "Well, I haven't looked in there." And, uh, I opened it and found him. So yeah And, and the trauma of that is so imprinted on Uh-huh. Yeah after my daughter's death in her room with her I, I don't, I don't know what's better. I've talked to parents who weren't allowed anywhere near their child. You know, I've, I've talked Yeah both. I don't know that there's a, preferred, a preferred thing, um, by any I don't know either. And I, you know, um sometimes question how I handled it'cause I just was in shock and I kinda ran away and ran back up the steps and, you know. The, the things you, like, beat yourself up about, right? Sometimes I'm like, "Well, I don't even remember what he was wearing," or, "Well, who cares what he was wearing?" You know? Like, um, yeah, I don't know. But it's certainly something you never get out of your brain, that's for sure Right. And so then you're, um, having to deal with this, uh, profound grief of losing a child, like those of us who have who listen to this podcast. All of our, many of our listeners know this experience, right? Mm-hmm. And we've been in the same shoes. And, and then somehow you're able to pick yourself back up. And people do this in different ways, and they respond in different ways. And I always say the only control we have over whatever happens to us in life is our response. What was your initial response, or how did you do in the first few months? Uh, shock. I mean, I think I was, y- I think you're operating on adrenaline Yes of just, you know, I, I've got another kid to take care of. We're g- planning a service. Um, like I said, I, Jordan had this huge group of friends that were kind of in and out of my house all the time, and so, um, a lot of them didn't have a lot of parental support, and so they were around a lot. Um, and that's complicated, right? You have complicated feelings about that 'cause they weren't all the best influences, but I, I love them still. So yeah, I think it was a lot of operating on that shock and adrenaline that comes from it. Um, my other son didn't want to stay in my house, which I understood, so he stayed with his dad for about three months while I sold the house. Um, so that kinda sucked, but it also was something that occupied my time. I had to get the house on the market. You had duties to perform. You had Yeah. do. Yeah, yeah And I w- I'm, you know, I'm really lucky. I have a great support group. I have a great group of friends that sort of just zoomed in and took care of me and then at some point you realized that you couldn't… I, I know we all, we talked about this a little bit, um, f- or we touched on it briefly, but we've all gone over in our heads of, of things that you could've done differently. Mothers al- too often get blamed in our society, I've Mm-hmm. Yeah on social media. It's easy Mm-hmm. you know. at some point you realized you weren't to blame, and how did you realize that? I, I don't, I don't have an answer to like the logistically how, except that . I had to understand that I don't have control. There's something very self-centered about the idea that we could have controlled the outcome, right? And we all have it about all kinds of things. I think it's a protective factor. I think our Yes uh, it's a protective thing. We think we can control so much in life and, and we can't Yeah. The other thing I had experienced was this Realization that assigning blame is useless, right? So this isn't, you know, there are times when people have bad actions and they have to pay consequences for them, and you want the people to be held responsible, all those things, right? But, you know, I, I talk a lot about people saying to me,"You did everything you could." And that is incredibly well-intentioned, and I know what they mean, and they're basically telling me I'm a good parent, and I very much appreciate that. But the reason they say that is to, so you don't feel guilty, or you don't feel like you're to blame, right? It's not your fault. And, you know, I guess this is my lawyer, logical brain, whatever, all I could think was, "What if I didn't do everything I could? Does that make it my fault?" Mm-hmm. And does anybody ever do everything they can? I don't know. Like, yes, you do the best you can with the resources you have at the time, et cetera. Yes. But why does it matter? Because, I mean, it matters that I loved him and I, I did try. But, but the focus on that, I just don't feel like that should be our focus of whether, of who's to blame, because it doesn't help us at this point Right, because it's already happened. It's over Yes and there's nothing you can do to change the past. Right do is move forward into the future without forgetting your child. But how… You, you, you talk about seven pillars. We, we, we Mm-hmm. Yeah came up with these seven pillars, and, how did you come up with those? Yeah. So this was just my attempt to kind of put some steps into place 'cause people would ask me, "How did you do this?" Or, "What, how can I do this?" And, um, you know, some of them, it could probably be four, it could probably be five, whatever, but some of them kind of flow together. But the first is really recognizing that control is an illusion, right? We don't… There are very few things we control, and really it's just ourselves. That's basically what we control it's scary to live in a world of It is. in a It is happen at any minute and we are not in control. It's a Right thing. And to really know that, you know that, I know that, Mm-hmm. I even forget. You know? Da. in, day out basis, you Of course. Yeah then you're reminded. I was reminded recently. I, there was a life-threatening incident and, and fortunately my loved one was okay, but I was reminded that life can change in an instant and I'm Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I say all the time that anything I say here is not… There's, there's, uh, I'm not trying to say I have this figured out or that I don't get back down into that, you know, tunnel sometimes, but pit of despair. right. Exactly. Exactly. So I think it's the… So it's recognizing that control is an illusion, and then it's owning your part and nothing else. So look, there are times, uh, there are things I… Like, let's take the marijuana smoking for instance, right? Like, if I had that to do over again, yes, there are some things I would have done very differently. There are a bunch of other things I would say that about. There are times I feel like I chose myself because I just had to. There… Whatever that is. But, Well, but I also… show me a perfect parent. You know, show me one. I mean, we're all humans and we're all flawed, and we all make mistakes, and there's no handbook on parenting, especially parenting a child with mental illness Right. use disorder. There's Right on it. And so we all did things that maybe that was the wrong technique or the wrong thing to do at the wrong time. You Mm-hmm. did that Yeah. And so I think, you know, this owning your part to me is some of us are not gonna be satisfied until we can say,"Yes, I did this wrong," right? Like, that's just what we need to do. But, but we also sometimes then wanna take all these other things on ourself that really had nothing to do with us. We, we try to take responsibility for just everything, right?'Cause we're the mom or we're the dad or whatever it is. We should, we should have known this. We should have been in control of this. There's only so much you can do. And then s- to me, it's letting go of the if onlys. So I say that carrying around if onlys or what ifs is like carrying around a backpack full of bricks. So if you think about each, each of those things that you think you should have done or you could have done to change things is like a brick you put in a backpack, and you're carrying it around, and that, what purpose does that serve? Literally none. It just weighs you down. It's just gonna keep you stuck. And so if you can take those one brick by brick and say, and be really honest with yourself and say, "Is there any guarantee that this would have changed the outcome?" Even if Yep, the answer is almost always no. Whether you wanna admit it to yourself or not, I mean, you have to get honest, right? Um, and then you gotta stop prosecuting yourself. So that's my cheesy lawyer insertion in there. But, um, I think a lot of us feel safe. There's, there's a kind of safety in beating ourselves up, right? Like, um, we wanna hang on to these things so that someone is taking responsibility, and there's… I know your loved one doesn't want you to do that. And what purpose is it serving for you? Right.'Cause if the roles were reversed, if, if, if, if was here and you were not, want him to be beating himself up or prosecuting himself No your death. And I always, I th- I've thought about that a lot, like, because Emily and I did love each other, and she wouldn't want me to be beating myself up, Yeah right, if the situation was different Yeah. Um, so the, the next one is that, and this was a hard one for me. So when I came to this realization that I didn't control all these things, like, none of these… I can't point to any of these things that this is the thing that would've saved him My mind went to like, well, okay, did any of it matter at all? Like, why do we even try if we can't guarantee that we're gonna save them? And, you know, of course it matters, and the truth is sometimes they do make a difference, but ultimately your love is not measured by the outcome" Your love is not measured by the outcome." That is a great I really like that. Tell me more So we, we're so results driven, right? In this, like, entire society. It's, it's what you've accomplished, what you've done. You put the work in, and you, you get this result, and look, this is how I'm… This is my worth. This is my trophy, whatever it is. And I, as parents, we tell ourselves this story when they're, you know, you get- you have this brand-new baby, and you think, "Oh, if I love hard enough, if I do all the right things, if I try hard enough, everything's gonna be okay. They're gonna turn out fine, and everything's gonna be okay." But that's, one, there's no guarantee of that, and two, that's just not a measure of your, of your love or ability as a parent because again, you didn't control it. But just because you didn't control it doesn't mean that you didn't love them and you didn't try Right. The outcome is not a measurement of your love. Your love is not a measurement of the outcome. And I, I, I think that's so interesting because I remember Emily was my first pregnancy, Mm-hmm. and I went to the Barnes & Noble back in the day and bought every book I could on pregnancy Mm-hmm. like, Yep get this right. I gotta get it all right." Then I bought every book I could on What to expect? Yes, of course, that one, but others too. And then I bought every- And then, and then she was a high-needs, fussy baby, so I bought that book about Mm-hmm. babies. And I bought a next book, Parenting with Love and Logic. I was gonna get this right. I loved her so much, and everything was going to… I was gonna be able to shape and mold my, uh, my children, which by the way, I mean, of course, I've been some influence on all of my children. But I have yet the living ones I haven't shaped or molded into exactly maybe what I think they should be all the time, right? And so we really don't have… I mean, it's just so interesting to me when you talk about that because I can really relate Yeah, and any parent, especially if you have more than one child, you know that they're just the same two people or three or 10 or whatever, whoever raises them. Same people can raise two different children, three different children, and they can turn out completely different. I mean, my boys certainly are yeah, and they could have completely different perspectives on their home life and what Uh-huh. there was like. I mean, it's, that's Uh-huh. so interesting is the child, the children could have Mm-hmm. different perspectives from one another, you know, on, Yeah. They see it through a different lens. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So after that, really, I say mo- moving forward, you have to accept that moving forward is not moving on. So I you to move on. People do. And I had one woman tell me,"Well, my aunt lost a child and she moved on," and I… That really upset me 'cause I'm never moving on basically that person was saying to me, "You need to move on. My Mm-hmm. moved on. You're, you're dragging this out. You Mm-hmm. I don't wanna see your grief. I don't, I don't…" And it was actually a, a difficult time for me. Um, but I always have said we move forward, but we don't Right. It's not And we our love or, or the child that we had Yeah, we move forward and take them with us, right? And I don't, I also don't think grief is something you get over. No. No, I would It- years in, no, yeah, you carry it with you always. yeah to parents who have, have 20, 30 years and they say the same thing. Absolutely to the outside world to be okay, right? They're not talk- I mean, I, I talk about this for a living, so that's a little different. Um, it's p- it's my life now, you know, through this podcast and through our charity. But not for most people. Th- they're just going on with their lives, but they haven't moved on. It doesn't matter how much time has gone by, they carry that loss of the child very close to their heart Yes. And I, I talk about this in other contexts too. I mean, grief is obviously bigger than death. I mean, there's-- you grieve a lot of things, and you grieve the loss of a marriage, you grieve the loss of a friendship. You know, Sure it, it's… And it's not a contest, though, I would say. I can't imagine that anything compares to losing a child. It doesn't matter. No all get afraid to move on or move forward sometimes 'cause we think we're moving on, and we think we're moving on and leaving behind whatever the good was from that relationship or from that experience or that we're not taking the person with us. And no one's asking you to forget. I want no one, but I'm not asking you to forget any of those things. But there's freedom in moving forward and not feeling stuck in your grief or regret. How have you moved forward specifically? Well, for context, my mom was diagnosed with Alzheimer's, uh, probably a year and a half or so before Jordan passed. And so we had moved her to an assisted living facility, and then we moved her into memory care shortly after Jordan died. And then she died a year ago. So, and, you know, uh, no one wants to live with that horrible disease. No one wants to watch someone live with that horrible disease. So there was some peacefulness in her passing, and there was a relief in that she was… gets- got to be free from that. Um, but it was a… I don't, I don't have the wake-up moment, but it was a sort of a, like, I'm not doing what I don't wanna do anymore moment. Um, so I'd been practicing law, and I left big firm years ago and went in-house at a bank and that, when I-- During that time, I was pretty happy in my career, but then I came back to law firm, and they're wonderful people, it was a great place, but it is just not for me and the billable hour, all of it. I was-- I knew I wasn't happy. I knew I hadn't been for a while, and I'd had this desire for a long time to do public speaking and writing, and I would write things and put them out on Substack or wherever, and I would get really great feedback and responses. And I've had people telling me I should do this for a long time. So I just decided I'm 50 years old, and I'm… doesn't make any sense to wait around, so this is what I'm gonna do. But then I was able to take Jordan's story and my experience of… I mean, I also lost my dad five years before Jordan died. I mean, you know, there's a lot, right, in succession. So That is a lot yeah. So I was able to take that, those experiences and a lot of… I mean, I, I have regret from all of those things. My dad and I had unresolved things. My mom and Alzheimer's, how you handle that, and whether you make the right choices, and how she eventually died, all those things, right? They cause you to go down that regret road. And as I started to deal with those things, and I thought back on how I dealt with them over the past year, I was able to channel it into helping other people Are you ready to protect the next generation from the dangers of substance use? Emily's Hope has created a comprehensive K through 12 substance use prevention curriculum designed to educate, empower, and equip students with the tools they need to make healthy choices. Our age appropriate lessons start in kindergarten and build through high school using science, real stories, and interactive learning to help kids understand their bodies, brains, and risk of drug use. We're already reaching thousands of students across multiple states, and we're just getting started. Visit emilyshopeedu.org to learn more, and share our curriculum with your school administrators and counselors. At Emily's Hope, we believe prevention begins with education. Let's work together to keep our kids safe. And so that is really moving forward, and you made a lot of changes in your life. I mean, you had a lot of loss. That's what strikes me. Mm-hmm. of your dad, the loss of Jordan, the Alzheimer's, and then ultimately the loss of your mother, moving homes careers. That's a lot I know. Any therapist would say, "Don't do that." But, Yeah. I mean, would. yeah. Although mine was supportive'cause she knew it's, like, I didn't have a choice in some circumstances. But, Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm yeah, I mean, it has been a lot, but I don't know if you experienced this, but, you know, as a woman, I watched so many women wait until they were 50, 60, whatever. I, I would see women just really come into their own in that time, and honestly, I was looking forward to turning 50'cause I felt like, okay, this is what I'm gonna, like, finally not care what everybody else thinks and do what I wanna do. So I, I don't know. I feel like it was just the right time in general And how's it going? How is the speaking and writing and all that going? Well, it took me a little while to really get my message honed, but it's going well. I, you know, there's still more work to do, and I have-- I'm doing things like this to try to get my name out there and… I, but I get really great feedback from social media and the, the speaking engagements I've had. So, um, I f- people seem to resonate with the message. I was a little nervous 'cause I say some things that are a little unconventional, like the whole I didn't do everything I could. Um, you know, but people have really resonated with it Oh, I think that's showing vulnerability, which people don't always like to show, but people can relate to. I try to be Mm-hmm. on this podcast and in my writing. You know, Brene Brown talks a Mm-hmm. about that. Um, but I think it does, it does make you more relatable. Mm-hmm. what is your message for audiences It's that regret doesn't serve you, and you can release it and move forward. If you have an idea for a podcast, we'd love to hear from you. You can get our contact information in the show notes. And while you're there, please take a moment to rate and review this episode, and please share it with your friends and family. You know someone who needs to hear it. I truly believe that when we share our stories, we can learn from one another and help make the world a better place And what was your last pillar again? You get to deci- you get to define what comes next And you certainly have done that Yeah, I think so. I think so. Yeah, you have. And I've also done… Okay. I guess I Yeah, absolutely a longtime broadcasting career, and I knew I was kinda burned out on it. Y- you know, I Mm-hmm It, it's, it's a difficult, difficult, um, pressure cooker to be in day in, day out, year after year. I'm sure really knew what I would do next, 'cause I loved reporting. Loved it, and I loved journalism. But, um, doing this work, this life-saving work, has really… often think, "Well, boy, I, I… If, if my daughter had lived, I would probably still be working in television news." And I, I just think, like, I'm doing this thing that I love. I'm talking to peop- using my skills like this, talking to you. And, but I'd take my daughter back in a second to not do any of Right. But Right how my entire life has been transformed through tragedy So do you ever have any sort of complicated feelings about that or guilt or, yeah Yeah, because I, I don't wanna say, well, I, I, I'm doing something I'm so passionate about and I love, I- it's part of it is the love for my daughter is the reason Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. this, and I don't want other families to go through it, and I want other people to know they're not alone. And I do, I do always say on this podcast, and people are probably tired of hearing it, but helping others helps me the most Yes, I agree. And I, talking about my story so openly helps me too. I also feel like it's honor to Jordan. Jordan was very, like I said, he was very open about his struggles, Yeah. Yeah, and he didn't want anybody else to experience what he experienced. So while I don't, like, it's not my main message to talk about suicide prevention or, or that type of thing, like, I do talk about it. And, you know, at Jordan's memorial service, we gave people those cards that said share a favorite memory of him, and I had at least five different people tell me either that he saved them or their kid wow. And then I got s- then I got messages directly on social media after that about ways he had saved them Wow. his short life and troubled life, Mm-hmm. and troubled, was able to do good for others through Mm-hmm. which is Yeah. touching, I guess, and also heart-wrenching, but touching and yeah I think sometimes though that the, the people with the biggest hearts and the most love Yes. Are the They make the impact in a small… And in the sh- they make their impact in a, the shortest time Yeah. I think there's a lot of truth to that if you look at history, at people, famous people or other people. I mean, it's just, Uh-huh. a lot of truth to that. And, and I love it that you're talking about letting go of regret and reframing that so it doesn't just apply to suicide, but it can apply to so many things. Because Uh-huh. all stumble into pits of despair. Uh-huh. I heard this somewhere else. I didn't come up with this, and I can't tell you. I heard it years ago, and I love it, so if anybody knows, they can send me a message. But I use this when I speak a lot about these pits of despair, and a lot of us fall into this pit, and there's

two kinds of people: 49:51

the kinds that just splatter on the bottom of the pit and those that bounce back up. And I wanna be a Mm-hmm. I wanna bounce back up because some Me too lucky. They avoid those pits of despair. But most of us, like you said, whether it be a job loss, a divorce, the loss of a loved one, loss of a child, your loss is, it can certainly send you into that pit. And so we wanna teach people how to bounce up, how to be bouncers and not splatterers Exactly. Yeah, I agree And you're doing that I hope so. I hope so. And I do also, I mean, I ha- I just sort of as a passion project, I have a little nonprofit that I started in his honor where we, um, a couple of years ago, the first Christmas, I had all of his friends over for a Christmas party, and I made these bags. So Jordan's last name was Guilford, mine is Renner, but his was Guilford, and they called him Gilly. And I made these bags of what I call Gilly's Favorite Things. So he was very specific about the kinds of snacks he liked. Like, he loved Goldfish crackers and Cheez-Its and the red Doritos, not the blue ones, you know. So I put all these in a bag, and then I put a couple little trinkets that reminded me of him, and, um, and some 988 information, which is the suicide prevention hotline. Also addiction, the crisis hotline, actually. Yes, it's the crisis. and suicide I have been trying to correct myself on that lately actually. It's the crisis hotline. to tell people that Absolutely to know if, if you're struggling with addiction, you can Mm-hmm. It's good. So I put that in there, and I… It went over so well with the kids that I was like,"Oh, I'm just gonna keep doing this." And as I would give them to people, people were so touched by them, so eventually a friend of mine created a logo. And I just, you know, I will every once in a while raise a little money on Facebook and then go create several hundred bags and take them to the YMCA Safe Place or the LGBTQ Youth Center or someplace else. And then my boyfriend and I both keep them in our cars and hand them to people when we think somebody could use them, in the drive-through or on the street or whatever. I don't know. If someone needs a bright spot in their day What a great way to keep Jordan's spirit alive Yeah. That's really cool. Yeah. absolutely love that. And if people wanna find out more about your seven pillars that we Uh-huh or more about the work that you do, they can just go to your website? Yes. So it's, you can go to stephanierennerspeaks.com or regrettoresilience.com will take you there also. And then I'm on LinkedIn and Facebook and Instagram and TikTok, you know, all of those And we'll put, we'll put links in the show notes as well Okay on our website page for this episode. So, um, please check that out. And I just really appreciate you sharing Jordan's story with me and how you have coped and, uh, just thank you for all that you're doing to help others Well, thank you, and thank you for having me on, and, you know, I love that you're doing this also. It's… We all have to make meaning or… I, I don't like to say meaning out of it because that makes it sound like it was supposed to happen, but pain, we ta- turn our pain into purpose, right? Well, and I do say a lot, like my daughter's death is, it's, it's meaningless. Like it didn't have to happen. Like Right to put fentanyl in the drug that she used. But I am trying to make meaning out of what could be a meaningless death, right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for doing that for Jordan as well and for yourself, because we carry on for our children. Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you. And thank you for listening to this episode of Grieving Out Loud. I hope you found it helpful. Each week, we release a new episode. You can find hundreds of our previous episodes anytime on our website, emilyshope.charity. Again, you'll find a link in the show notes. Thank you for listening. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Wannenberg King and Kayli Fitts