Now, as your father probably told you, my name is Matt Foley and I am a motivational speaker From Saturday Night Live to hit films like Black Sheep and Tommy Boy, Chris Farley is widely regarded as one of the defining comedians of the 1990s. Fat guy in a little coat. Don't. Fat guy in a little coat. But behind the fame and larger than life humor, Chris privately struggled with substance use disorder. In 1997, he died at age 33 from an accidental overdose of cocaine and morphine. When he was in active addiction, you know, there was the shame and stigma around that, Especially back then, I'm sure. I mean, oh, yeah. So, you know, w- we didn't want anyone to find out about that, and then he became, you know, we, then we had to protect his career on top of that, and there was like th- th- then that kinda doubled down on that shame and stigma. It's like, now we really have to keep this a secret. That's Chris's brother, Tom Farley, our guest on this episode of Grieving Out Loud. He knows firsthand what it's like to hide what you're really feeling and how that can fuel addiction. He not only watched his brother struggle, but he went through it himself, often covering up his pain with humor, just as Chris did We can be in the middle of this huge crowd and all the attention's on us, but feel isolation more deeply than anyone that was kind of truly by themselves. It's a level of isolation that you can't describe. Like, on the surface it looks like that person isn't in isolation. Look at all the attention they're getting. But they are. We are In this episode of Grieving Out Loud, Tom shares his story, what he's learned about overcoming addiction, finding real happiness, and why it's so important to be true to your authentic self. He also talks about how he's helping others stop hiding their emotions behind things like humor, anger, or alcohol This is my authentic self. E- take it or leave it, you know? And this is my story and I have to, I have to be honest about it, I have to get past the fear and I have to be vulnerable, I have to tell you about the moment I knew today's guest was going to be someone special. I was at the White House earlier this month for the release of the 2026 National Drug Control Strategy. It was, as you may imagine, a pretty formal affair, serious people, serious subject matter, and a lot of intensity in the room. And then there was Tom Farley, cracking everyone up and somehow making the whole thing feel human again, and that is a gift. Tom is the brother of beloved comedian Chris Farley, and he co-authored the New York Times bestseller, The Chris Farley Show, about his brother's life and legacy, and he spent years leading the Chris Farley Foundation, using humor to help young people navigate some of life's toughest moments. Now in recovery himself, Tom works as the community outreach director at recovery.com, and speaks across the country to break the stigma and remind people they are not alone. And Tom, I am so glad that our paths crossed at the White House, and I'm, I'm even more glad you're here today. Thank I know. I'm, I'm glad that we, like, got right on it. We just knew, like, yeah, yeah, uh, like, let's not waste time here. Let's, you know… We just met a couple weeks ago, and like, I couldn't wait to get on this, uh, podcast, so thank And I, I meant it when I said that that was the time I laughed when you were speaking because I thought about this afterwards, you know, when I'm sitting here in these meetings, and what people had to say was important, and of course I'm very concerned, as you are, about policy and about curbing this epidemic, as we all are. Uh, but you did make me laugh, so thank you for that, and I think I needed that. We're all, like, a little tense. Yeah. Yeah. That's the only language I was, you know, brought up on, so, you know, Tom grew up in a large Irish Catholic family with his father's side from Wisconsin and his mother's from Boston. That upbringing gave him plenty of material for comedy, but it also shaped how he understood and often expressed emotions emotions are tough, especially if you're from the Midwest and also Irish. You know, all the tough ones we like to bury. And so we used humor as our coping mechanism. You know, whether somebody was happy, you know, we laughed or like, you know, stressed out or angry, we laughed. Even when somebody was in pain, we laughed because we didn't like that a loved one was in pain, so we thought our humor could bring people out. And, the result was we, we really didn't develop any other emotions beyond humor and maybe, you know, some, you know, anger, frustration, whatever. But, um, but, uh, but on the same token, in a big family, we al- also had to, and we were always competing, you know, for my dad's approval. You know, he would come home at, at 5:00, and we'd all have dinner around the table, all five of us, and, uh, my mom. And he'd say, "W- how was your day?" And we'd have to compete and be funny and interesting. Uh, s- you know, we wanted to make my dad laugh. And so we got very, very kinda used our humor competitively and, you know, it was a circus And tell me about the drinking, 'cause I think it's stereotypical to say Irish people drink a lot. You know, it's very stereotypical. But that was the case for you well, what's interesting, I, you know, like, well, because then I was-- and, and also as I said, I'm from Wisconsin, so drinking in both of those situ- it's very normative. You know, it's, and it's part of our… We think it's part of our, uh, identity that if you're Irish, you're supposed to drink. If you're a Farley, you know, you're supposed to drink,'cause I've learned that this goes back generations. Uh, if you're from Wisconsin, yeah, you, you, you have to drink. And so we grew up kind of believing that. But the interesting thing was, of my siblings, you know, my older sister and my three younger brothers, um, my three m- myself, my brother Kevin, and Johnny, like, like we're sober. You know, I'm in recovery. They're probably sober. We stopped drinking 'cause that was derailing us. My sister Barb can have two glass of wine and that'd be enough for her. Um, uh, and the three of us, we started, we, there was no off switch. And then you had Chris, who it wasn't just an off switch, it was some- it was something harder, stronger, you know. Whatever trauma he thought that he had, it, just, you know, he couldn't turn it off loud enough, that makes sense I do think there are so many people with such talent, a- and I think Chris was on that spectrum, you know, of just, just being so talented, right? There's also a propensity to use substances, whether that be an, an artist… I mean, we've seen it for ages, right? Whether that be a musician, an artist, a comedian. W- was there a certain sensitivity, do you think, Chris had that he was masking or covering a- well, absolutely. Well, actually it was the opposite. It… And I found this out as I got into recovery myself, is, and I started applying it for myself, I'm like, oh, I, Chris was definitely the same way. And as an anecdote I say, I, I say that we could be in the middle of a, a room, a bar, if I'm honest, uh, a r- middle of a bar, surrounded by people, center of attention, making everyone laugh, and not feel more like we're standing on the surface of the moon. It's like we're giving everyone what they want, and we're, and, and in Chris' case, he was really good at making people laugh and, and bringing what he was, w- you, joy. But also knowing that, like, they're not seeing me. They, they think I'm just this, you know, clown. And, you know, for me, I was like, you know, I, I'm actually more than that. I'm actually pretty smart. Um, and for Chris was, he was just very caring and very, you know, he had… But nobody s- ever saw that. And I think the only way, at least for me, and I'm sure it was with Chris, the only way to deal with that hollow feeling that nobody saw who we were, or that we were too fearful of showing our authentic self, w- we just numbed it, drowned it, drank I think that's a story for so many people, whether they're famous or not, you know, what- whatever. I, yeah. It's weird, It's weird, as I said, like, we, we, we can be in the middle of this huge crowd and all the attention's on us, but feel isolation more deeply than anyone that was kind of truly by themselves. It's a level of isolation that you can't describe. Like, on the surface it looks like that person isn't in isolation. Look at all the attention they're getting. But they are. We are And I've heard people say, who have suffered from substance use disorder, that once they smoke that first joint, tried that first drink, whatever it is, that that took away those feelings, those uncomfortable feelings, and they were able to feel normal. Do you feel like that was the case for you maybe Well, now, I, you know, I, I, for me, a- and again, probably for Chris too, is, um, because we wanted connection, we wanted people to like us and all that kind stuff, we went to, into every environment that we went to and, and tried to connect that way. We tried to be somebody au- inauthentic because we wanted connection. If you're a mom who has lost a child, I wanna tell you about something close to my heart. Some dear friends of mine, mothers who have also lost children to fentanyl poisoning or overdose, are hosting the Sisters of Strength Warrior Moms Retreat this October 9th through the 11th at beautiful Wildwood Hills Ranch in St. Charles, Iowa. This is a weekend created by grieving mothers for grieving mothers. You'll spend time in nature, ride horseback, hike, paint, and create keepsakes in memory of your child, all alongside women who truly understand the depth of a mother's love and the weight of her loss. This weekend isn't about forgetting. It's about remembering with love, honoring our children's legacies, and discovering that even in loss, we rise together as warriors, as mothers, and as sisters. Please join us. You'll find the link and all the details in the show notes of this episode. I hope you'll consider giving yourself this gift Tom says he didn't believe people would accept his true authentic self, so he used humor and different personas to connect with others. He would also adjust who he was depending on the situation, especially during the transition from growing up in Wisconsin to attending Georgetown University When I was at, with my Georgetown friends, I was, you know, trying to be this, you know, future CEO like everyone else. Uh, they all actually became CEOs. It's kind of fantastic. But, uh, yeah, so then when I came home to Wisconsin, I was like, "Hey, you know, where, where's the fish fry?" You know, like, let's, let's be this Wisconsin guy. And I, and no matter where I was, I would be that person, which wasn't me. And you even know who you were? Did you even No. Well, let's put it this way. I, I didn't wanna find out. I was afraid that, like, what if people don't like that person? What if I don't like that person? I, you know, I, and I think families do that, too, is you create this image of who we are, and that's… And I grew up in that, too. Like, we're the Farleys, and we had to be like this group. You know, we're all the same. We, as my brother Johnny described it, we're, we were, we were like those Russian dolls. Like, we came in different sizes, but we all had to look the same. And, uh, but that's not, that's not true. We should, you know, we should look at it like I love, you know, like, a word I've learned from my brothers who went into comedy through improv. Uh, we, we should've been the ensemble where, uh, you know, everyone comes in with all their otherness and, you know, they're welcomed in, and, you know, it's… The song's beautiful. Got all these instruments. But we weren't all the same No, you aren't all the same, but you are inherently funny, Tom. I mean, you are. Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We do have that, but, but we're d- but, but we all bring something different, d- different k- kinds of funny. You know, I'm, I got a more dry sense of humor, and Chris was, you know, ha- ha- had his style, too. And, um, so I Outrageous and very physical. He had very physical sense of humor. Yeah But it's interesting, I, I read a book recently about, it was mostly focused on, uh, the disabled community, um, and it was how, like, families have this image that they're trying to put out to the world, and when somebody doesn't fit into that image, like somebody with a disability or so- you know, somebody with a, an addiction, they're written out of the family narrative. You know? How many people, how ma- how many people, if at least in an average community, have that drunk uncle? That's all we know about him. He was the drunk uncle. But, like, there was so much more to him, but he didn't fit into the narrative. So, they're, they're pushed out and, you know, and I, I s- you know, I, I saw that. You, you either, you were either part of the farm- family narrative or you weren't, you know? So when Chris died in 1997 of an overdose how did your family react to that? How did you and your parents and your siblings cope with Well, yeah, it's interesting. So, you know, before that when Chris was, had this, you know, um, when he was in active addiction, you know, there was the shame and stigma around that, Especially back then, I'm sure. I mean, oh, yeah. So, you know, w- we didn't want anyone to find out about that, and then he became, you know, we, then we had to protect his career on top of that, and there was like th- th- then that kinda doubled down on that shame and stigma. It's like, now we really have to keep this a secret. And so when he died, there was no kinda hiding from that anymore, and, um, I just knew I had to start talking about it. I don't, you know, the rest of my family didn't and, and really hasn't, and I, i- i- I can, I can see the pain they're still carrying around, unfortunately. I, I can't-- I'm glad I didn't have that like I, I, I immediately the family got Well, you talk about in your blog about the internet trolls, w- just broke, broke my heart because we got that. I would, you know, you, you know, so course you did of I would, yeah. But it was, it, you know, it still feels just as bad as it does, did for you. Like it d- doesn't matter who it is, it's like when you're judged that way, it's just so painful. And I, it broke my heart to read that 'cause I, I lived through it, you know. Um, And people, people… It's so interesting to me that people boil somebody down to one fact or one thing they know about them, when people are almost unknowable, I always say. People are very complicated, and for someone to pass judgment on your family, you, your family's life, Chris himself, or whatever, or, or my family or my daughter, it always just blows my mind away a little bit. Like, you know nothing about… I know nothing about your personal life. Not really. in my, in my instance, it's like you're talking about Chris Farley. You were just laughing about him like before, like, you know, like, and now you're this. And when I looked at like pictures of E- Emily, this beautiful girl, like, and now you're like, "What are you talking about?" Like, Right like look what's in front of you. Like, it doesn't make sense. Just doesn't The judgment is so strong and, and, it, it, still, the stigma is still out there. Anybody who thinks it's fear. it's, fear. it's, it's, it's, uh, it, they don't want that, you know, on themselves, so they've… That's the wall people build up to, to push it out because they don't wanna be honest about even the smallest things. Uh, like, you know, 'cause… that's, really why I do what I do, and I'm sure that's why you do what you do, is like, I don't wish this on anyone Right. And I feel like I had a choice, of course, when it first happened. You know, I was in the public eye in my local area, and I just thought, "I have to stop this from happening to somebody else." I never felt like I really had a choice, although, uh, certainly I did, and certainly you did, and other members of your family chose differently. And other parents that I know ch- choose differently, but I didn't, I didn't feel like I could stay quiet. I felt like I had to discuss it, even though there are personal costs for that sometimes, and I'm sure you feel that way, too. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. And so how long did it take for you to realize, "Hey, I also need to s- you know, to stop using alcohol"? I think alcohol was maybe your substance of longer. Uh, you know, b- because what I had been doing was kinda, as I said, I was putting out to the world this person that I thought I needed to be or they expected of me, and I had to be this person. I had to maintain this kinda inauthentic kinda persona. But, uh, but I also was very good at creating that, you know, and curating that person, you know? So, uh, it, wasn't until I got in recovery like almost eight years ago really, uh, it took that long, Chris had been gone almost 30 years. Um, when I learned about that this authentic self where instead of going into these different environments and being a person to connect with, I… This is my authentic self. E- take it or leave it, you know? And this is my story and I have to, I have to be honest about it, I have to get past the fear and I have to be vulnerable, you know? And, and, and, and the beautiful thing about vulnerability is that it doesn't last long. All of a sudden you lean into it and you're like fear drops away, connection, you know, builds and you're like, "Th- this was waiting for me the whole time? Why did I, Yeah. did I wait?" Yeah, I agree with that because I think about sometimes the fear I have with being vulnerable, whether it be in my writing or talking on this podcast, and 99% of the time someone says to me, "Oh my gosh, I'm so glad you did that because this is me," or, "This is how I felt," or, "This is what I did." And I think the thing about c- that connectiveness on that human level, you can't have it. And I know Brene Brown talks about this all the time, of course I've read her books, but you can't have it without vulnerability. And when you are masking, whether, whether you're masking, however you're masking, people don't… It's not always with, with drugs or alcohol. People do it in different ways too, right? But whatever you're masking with, it, once that mask falls away and, and you're, you are vulnerable, I think most of the time… Now, you can't be vulnerable with everybody, but most of the time you're rewarded for it, right? totally. And, and actually that's my, that's my favorite joke, is I say as the guy, like, you know, I read one Brene Brown book and that, that was the end for that. I was like, toast. You want me to cry? I'll cry. I'll, you know, I'll be vulnerable. I'll be, I'll stay in the arena. And I laugh about it now, but it's, it's, it's my life now. And, you know, I used to go and do a lot of talks talking about somebody else's addiction, you know, talking about Chris. When I started to be honest about my own story and tell my own story, it was really the, the best… People come up to me afterwards and they're like,"That's not what I thought this was gonna be about." And it's like, "Matter of fact, you're telling your story and I thought we were… I was gonna hear Chris Farley stories, but I'm hearing your story. And then I realized, oh my gosh, no, that's my story. He's telling my story." And I'm "That's connection. That's what I was looking for all this time." Right. So once you, you, you stop focusing so much on your brother and telling your own story, you connected more with Yeah. And he's still part of it, um, obviously, you know? Right. Of he's, you know, he's, part of my journey, but now I own, I'm not a slave to it, and I, it's, it's, it's all about me and then, and finding that, uh, you know, that's when my journey started, and then I, and I, and I keep chasing that, that authentic and, you know, how can I be more, you know, honest and more grateful? Like, I, I, I keep wanting more because I get rewarded every time Yeah, and when you speak to groups, and I know you s- you have, um, been talking at conferences where people are coming together t- to try to prevent addiction, to talk about the latest and greatest treatments in addiction. And when you speak, you, you do bring humor to the table. Why? And it's a subject we, we don't often laugh about. First of all, it's a heavy subject, and for those loved ones and people carrying this, it, it seems like there's hardly anything to laugh about. But, but you're able to do that. So tell me why that's effective or how you're able to do that. Well, because laughter is, i- i- if, if, if laughter and humor are anything, it's two things. It's, it's healing, healing, and it also brings connection. The problem is, is, is when, you know, you, you pass, you, you, you go past that tipping point where it becomes… Y- one of my favorite quotes from Maya Angelou, uh, said in an interview with Oprah, um, "Only equals can laugh with each other." If that relationship isn't equal, if you're laughing at yourself or laughing at somebody else, that's not real humor. You know, i- i- i- it's short-lived. But when, when two people who are equal and connected and share laughter, that's when the real power of humor comes to play, and that's when it op- its ability to open the door to joy I love that. Because when you're laughing at someone, it's cruelty. That's cruelty. That's not humor. Um, but it is, when you have this shared connection or this shared experience, it's kind of like the universal human thing again. It's that almost that vulnerability. You laugh because you identify, you understand Yeah. Are you ready to protect the next generation from the dangers of substance use? Emily's Hope has created a comprehensive K through 12 substance use prevention curriculum designed to educate, empower, and equip students with the tools they need to make healthy choices. Our age appropriate lessons start in kindergarten and build through high school using science, real stories, and interactive learning to help kids understand their bodies, brains, and risk of drug use. We're already reaching thousands of students across multiple states, and we're just getting started. Visit emilyshopeedu.org to learn more, and share our curriculum with your school administrators and counselors. At Emily's Hope, we believe prevention begins with education. Let's work together to keep our kids safe. You know, a lot of people and, you know, they laugh at, you know, my addicted self or, you know, these are these, these stories. And I, I don't, I don't get… I don't, I just wanna share laughter with people. I, I don't laugh at myself or, uh, or the disease or, you know, I- why would I laugh at those things? I just, you know, seek joy together. I don't know And tell me a little bit more about recovery.com and what you're doing over there Sure. Um You know, I, it was amazing. I, I, uh, i- it started out as a treatment finder. You know, these, you know, people that-- It was started here in Wisconsin in, in my hometown of Madison. I'd never even heard of it. Um, and it started out with these guys s- seeing that the barriers to treatment, there's, there's so many barriers. And like, you know, the, the only way, uh, that, that people got referred to treatment it was by who's got an open bed or what insurance network are you in. You know, that was the only criteria. And they, so they said,"Let's create something that's patient focused." It's like, what are you-- You know, what do you need? And, you know, whether it's, you know, uh, mental health related or, or substance related, like it's still, you know, every, i-i-it comes in different, you know, forms for ev-everyone. And so, uh, they kind of created this, you know, let's find you the right place. And then just as I came on board, right, actually before I came on board, they bought the domain name recovery.com. They were n- something else before. And these guys who aren't in recovery, the founder of the company said, "Oh my gosh, now we have to be recovery. Like, we have to be, we have to honor her." And so we started to be tr-- more than just a treatment finder, we started to, uh, do podcasts and do, uh, all this content about, you know, what is this? What are these, these issues and diseases? What… You know, or simple questions like, what does my insurance pay for? Or what if I don't have insurance? Or what, what is this DBT therapy people keep telling me to do? A- and, and, and the point is, is like usually you're pushed into treatment. Your, your family tells you you gotta go, your, your doctor, you had an intervention. And you're like, you have some accept-- You know, "Okay, I accept I gotta do this." But it's not true i- ownership. And I tell people, b- you know, if they, if they even have a glint of, "Maybe I need some extra help," start owning it. Start gaining agency and start really, you know, stop being told what to do and like start wanting this life, this promise of recovery. Understand what that means and how it can change your life. And it may be a little hard at first, but, you know, listen to more and more people that say,"Oh my gosh, I can't believe I have this life. You, you couldn't have sold this to me." Sounds to me like recovery.com has a really, a clearing house of information and resources and things like that for people to really explore and figure out what's right for them, because no two addictions are the same. That's the thing. What may work for somebody or what combinations of things might work for one person might not work for the other And even if, like, your insurance doesn't cover this or, uh, you know, if they don't have an opening, there's a waiting list or whatever, it doesn't mean you can't understand it. Like, I know this is what I need. I may not be able to get it, but I know what it… Yeah, I, I'm gonna try and come close to it. Like, you know, instead of just taking whatever is served to you, like, okay, if, this is what you're serving to me, that's fine, but I know what I need, and I, I think that's what we're trying to do is more and more people go to the internet searching for help. Uh, th- you know, and, you know, which is a scary thought'cause it's a scary place, and now you throw AI in there, in the mix, and yikes. But there's gotta be a safe place, and we wanna be this, the place to be for recovery on the internet. And, and that means not just creating it ourselves, but collaborating, and there's, there's so many good, uh, people out there doing the same stuff as we are, and we wanna support them, uh, you know, and, and, and really, be the, you know, this, a, a mission of, of, of being the place for recovery Right. Well, we don't live in silos, right? So I always say that, uh, there's so many other organizations like ours that have been started by parents after losing someone to the fentanyl crisis, and I just think we all have to work together to really find solutions in this country. And let's, let's talk about solutions in this country for a moment, because we were both at the Eisenhower building in the White House complex, you know, meeting the current drug czar, hearing from all these leaders on the forefront of the drug control policy. I was there twice under the Biden administration. I always say I'm, uh, this is a nonpartisan issue, this issue of substance use disorder, this, uh, opioid fentanyl epidemic, also methamphetamine, the just the drug epidemic that we're in, the number of overdoses cannot be solved by one ideology or one party, that it really takes everybody coming together. You were there. Uh, what did you think about what was proposed, and what do you think some of the solutions might be? Well, one of the questions I was asked, um, on my pa- on, on our pa- on the panel was, um, what do you tell, uh-- And I was just there to talk about recovery, and I was asked, "What do you tell policymakers about recovery?" And I said this. I said something that you and I both learned is, uh, uh, the hard way is, uh, you can't love somebody out of addiction. As much as you want to, you can't love somebody out of addiction. But the, the opposite is, is true as well. You can't punish somebody out of addiction either. You need to find that middle ground. You need to create policy that, uh, more than anything, breaks down stigmas. Otherwise, wh- you know, um, what good is it? You know, if, if, if your policy, you know-- And, and I also said you, you cannot legislate culture change. If you want cu- the culture to change, provide the, the, the, the, the, the boundaries and the, and the guid- and the guidance to do that, but we've gotta do the work. Help us. Your people like you, like recovery.com, emilyshope. Like, let us do it. Give us the tools and the support to do that, to change the culture and break down stigmas. But if you're just gonna create policies that make it that much difficult for us to collaborate and to break down those stigmas, then we're in trouble I always say we're boots on the ground doing the work that government can't do because it's just not capable of doing it, right? So government can provide funding, government can provide guidelines, things like that. But to actually reach people and help people, that takes organizations that are in the communities As I, as I say to so many communities, I- I remind people, um, there is nothing, there is nothing like the s- the si- the sight of a, of a healed human. You need, we need to see that. Uh, I tell people, uh, communities, there are people walking around in our communities right now in recovery that communities wrote off, families wrote off, they wrote themselves off, and now they're doing such amazing work. We need to see that. And, you know, sitting in Washington, yeah, how do you see that? How do you see the result? How do you see people healing? You can't. We, we, you've gotta let us do, do that work, and and it's easy to break it down, to make it, try to simplify it, to make it about one thing, like the border or law enforcement efforts. When, I have said time and time again, and people are probably sick of me saying it, but this is a three-legged stool. We have to have the law enforcement side, of course we do, but we also need treatment and recovery and prevention. You know, I, I put treatment and recovery in one leg of that stool and prevention efforts Well, those three panels that we had in Washington, we had the law enforcement, we had the demand reduction, and we had faith. Those are kind of like, you know, that's, And, and what was beautiful about the faith panel, uh, I thought, was that there were represent- there was representation from many different faiths. There was Muslim panel that we Jewish, yeah, Christian, Catholic, all of it. I mean, Christian is Catholic, but you know what I mean. There was a priest on there. Um, but yeah, we, w- that's what… And I was pleasantly surprised to see that, actually, that there were many different voices represented Yeah, I, yeah And I actually heard someone on that panel say, "We also believe in science," which we need both. We need to have the faith option for people, and we need to have the science. So let's do it all. Why can't we do it all? Why do we want to eliminate one part of it, or certain groups wanna eliminate one part of it or make it all about one thing when it's never that way? It's funny, when I first got into recovery, I was, I was like-- My, my joke was, uh, uh, you know, I was a lifelong Catholic. I still take my 90-year-old mother to church every Sunday. I'm like, "I only have to learn 11 steps. This is great." You know? I already had one. But I'm like, I got in there like, "Oh, this has nothing to do with the, you know, my religion." Like, uh, you know, uh, it opened my eyes to all of that. Like, you know, connection is connection. And I, i-i-i-if, you know, you've gotta be open up to, you know, start there, you know, how you connect. And they-- That faith panel really demonstrated that. Like that, that was, that was connection, that was beautiful Yeah. And so what keeps you in recovery? Connection. You know, I, I, I, I, you know, as I said, I, I l- in my authentic self, I'm just so comfortable with who I am now, and I get to, um, yeah, just connect with so many people as I, I, you know, I… It's funny. I used to, I, I used to say, um, I was brought up with this, this feeling of, um, you know, my people were all p- p- people I grew up w- in my neighborhood, went to my schools, my country club, my, my, uh, um, uh, church, who voted the way I did. You know, my, um, uh, my p- my people were all, uh, all white, no tattoos, had all their teeth. And I've learned in recovery that, A, I've spent a lot of time in church basements, uh, that I look around, it's just such a diverse group. Um, a lot of different stories, uh, a lot of tattoos, uh, uh, you know, a lot of people with half their teeth. Uh, but I've never felt a, a, a sense of bel- um, such a sense of belonging than ever I have in my life and, uh, and, um, and finding connection, uh, that same way. And so, um, man, I chase that. That's what keeps me around, like, that feeling. And wherever, you know, wherever I have this sense of belonging, you know, and, and, and feel, and feel it, um, I stick, I stick pretty close to that Yeah, I hear you saying shared experience really makes that connection, and I can relate to that with our support group of people who've lost a loved one to addiction or overdose. We've all been through this, that other people can't understand, right? And so really there is a sense of connection there. You instantly know and you know that person, and you, you can have empathy in the way that you can't with someone else know what I've, you know what I've always said though? I can, uh, and it's, you know, it's gotten a little bit better, but I can talk to anyone that's lost a sibling or a loved one or a spouse or I, through this season. I can, I, I get it. I have empathy. Like, we, we connect. W- with one exception, it's always been hard to talk to, to a, a, a mother. I can't, it's hard for me to talk to my own mother because that's a loss. There's, there's no way I can ever, uh, understand that. I, I can come close. I have come close, but, you know, um, and I, I keep wanting to try to, to connect there too, but, um, I just think there, there's… I mean, your-- the, the, the group that was there, there was a lot of mothers there in that room, and they were so powerful Well, there is something about, you know, a mother and a child that, that really I guess people can't understand unless they are the mother. so yeah, well somebody said to, I heard somebody, uh, you, when I was, you know, when my kids were quite young and it just, it hit me, is, is I don't know where I heard this, but they said, "You know, fathers have to learn to love their children." And I'm like, "What?" It's like, no, you have to learn. Like that, mothers don't. I mean, that's a given. You know, that, that's, that, that, that, that from, from the get-go, that love is always there Fathers have to learn that. And, I, I, I would agree with, I would agree with that statement. Yeah, I would agree with that. And then do you ever feel… I mean, Chris had such a big personality, a big life in his short 33 years, and a very public death that has been talked about for many years since. Do you ever feel overshadowed by that? Uh, I used to try to, um, to be honest, you know, when I, when I first started going out and talking and telling Chris's story, uh, it was really to maybe partly to prevent e- either being overshadowed or to continue that kind of attention that Chris, you know, had that ability to give. But, you know, it's the same thing. It's, it's not, it's not true and, and it's not authentic. So yeah, I definitely did that. For whatever reason, even though I was doing good, it wasn't for the, you know, truly for the right reasons until I started doing it for myself. And now that I'm telling my st- like, not even close, uh, like now people are coming up to me like for, 'cause of me, know? Right uh, I didn't think I'd ever step out from under that shadow, I, I always had that ability, you know? Um, so yeah, it's, uh, still trying to be as funny, not even coming close though Well, you're not doing too bad. So I think it's wonderful that you're using humor in this space and, um, and, and your brother's name probably gets you in the door still to absolutely. But you know what, but what's great is, and, and I, and I, the, you know, I love that I have the ability to, when I go into i- these small little, you know, c- rural communities in Wisconsin, they can't get attention. You know, if they're, they're doing such great work, but no one knows it. I come in, I'm like, I, yes, I get all this attention, but I throw it over to the people that are doing the work. I'm like, "I'll get you attention." Like, get me in, like, "When was the last time you were on your local Live at Five?" It's like, "Oh, they never ask us." It's like, "Bring me in, come to your, I'll come to your thing, and we'll, and we'll be on it together." And all of a sudden they're like,"How did this happen?" It's like, yeah, that's, my life. But I love that I can kinda, you know, pivot the attention over to someone else, and, uh, oh, man, that, that just feels fantastic Yeah. I, I, I completely understand that, 'cause I really like to have other members of my team get attention. Oftentimes I'm the voice and face of this organization, so you know, oftentimes it has to be me, but whenever I can get it onto someone else, I'm more than happy to do that. More than happy. Yeah, Yeah. Well, what's next for you and recovery.com? Oh, gosh. I, so I am leaving tomorrow for the West Coast for, uh, Palm Springs for the, uh, West Coast Symposium Conference. You know, it's a big industry conference, and I am speaking on the therapeutic use of humor in treatment and recovery. I mean, which is, it's a great space to be 'cause like you're all these people with initials after their names and talking about the science of addiction, and I'm like, "Yeah, that's good." Like, I talk about the humor and I talk about, as we did earlier, the dangers in my family of, of how we used humor as a coping mechanism, which turned into a trauma. Uh, humor's very powerful, and I, I, I wanna remind people that and how to use it, but also the dangers of like, uh, how it can, you know, work against you. So it's a great little talk that I get to do, and, um, and be funny in a very… You know, like I, I love being around serious people, uh, 'cause it makes me look really funny. The You got a lot of doctors, a lot of MDs at that conference and yeah. gosh Yeah. Well, good luck with that. I, I'm sure you will do very well, and I really appreciate you sharing your story, as well as Chris's story on this podcast with me, and it's been a pleasure to get to know you Uh, yeah. Oh my gosh. It, the, yeah, I, I appreciate, I, I love that again, we found ourselves in the same room. You know, we're driven by the same thing and, and I, I got to un- you know, we got to connect and, um, talk about our, our, our, our pain a little bit. But, you know, we do the work that we do because that pain doesn't go away. So, it heals the pain, I think. The work heal, helps heal the pain I tell people all the time, every time I speak, I go,"Don't, you know, mistake, like, what I'm, what's going on here. I'm not here to educate you or motivate you. I'm here because I still need to heal, and what you're seeing is me healing." You know? And I thank you for that. And hopefully, you know, I'm, I can, I give you permission to do the same, but right now I'm not here for you. I'm here for me. I, I'm still healing, know? Yeah, me too. Me too. And I agree 100%. I always say helping others helps me the most, so, um, keep on doing it. So Yeah, you too. Thank you so much. And thank you for listening to this episode of Grieving Out Loud. If you or someone you love is struggling with substance use disorder, please don't wait to seek help. You can find resources on our website, emilyshope.charity, and we've put the link for you in the show notes. While you're there, you can explore hundreds of past episodes, stay up to date on news about addiction, the fentanyl epidemic, and mental health, and learn more about our K through 12 substance use prevention curriculum. Thank you again for listening. We hope you found this episode helpful. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Wonnenberg King and Kayli Fitz