What happens when the hopes and dreams you have for your child begin to unravel? When they make choices you don't understand or find themselves in trouble? Like many parents, you may try to step in and fix it. That's exactly what today's guest did on Grieving Out Loud when she found out her youngest son was experimenting with drugs. The turning point for me that senior year of high school was his best friend came to me and said, "He is in trouble." That was another of my bubble, and at that point in time, immediately I knew I have to get him into treatment. As she watched her son struggle with substance use disorder for years and go in and out of about two dozen treatment centers, Barb McAlister tried everything she could to help him find sobriety Looking back on it now, I can see that that was necessary for me when there's nothing else to do, all there is to do is to surrender. After years of trying everything, Barb decided to take a different approach, one she says made a huge difference in her relationship with her son and even with herself When I started really listening to my son, you know, and I read from some expert that, you know, you're dealing with an addict, the que-- you don't ask the question,"When are you gonna be sober?" Which is what the question I asked for years. It's, "Tell me about your pain." And I finally got to a place where I could start to listen my son's pain. In this episode of Grieving Out Loud, Barb shares her sometimes painful journey and what addiction has taught her about life and learning to love unconditionally the big surprise so far has been thought all along I was gonna be the person. I would shine my light that he could find his way back home. And ironically, what I think's happened is he's been the one to help me grow. There is a version of the addiction story that rarely gets told, although we do try to talk about it here on this podcast. It's not the one about the person who is struggling, but the one about the person who loves them, the one who stays, the one who keeps showing up even when showing up costs them something, the one who has to figure out in real time how to hold on without losing themselves. Today's guest knows that story from the inside. Barb McAlister spent 26 years at the US Environmental Protection Agency, rising to director of air quality for the Northwest before founding Thrive Coaching and Consulting, where she now works with leaders, managers, and individuals navigating change and adversity. But it was her son's addiction that brought her into a world that she hadn't chosen, and eventually into a quiet ministry of walking alongside others who know what it means to love someone they cannot necessarily save. She came to believe that the connection, uh, is the antidote to addiction, and that staying in connection without losing yourself is an art and a hard-won education. Her personal essay, The Empty Chair, tells the story of the mother's side. It is not a story with a neat, tidy ending. The grief is real and ambiguous, and the path through is neither straight nor swift. The transformation she found in the middle of it all is exactly why she is here to talk to us today. I am so honored to welcome you, Barb McAlister, to Grieving Out Loud. Thank you, Angela. I'm really happy to be here You know, this is, uh, something that we talk about on this podcast. We, I talk to a lot of parents who've dealt with the loss of a child to substances. I talk to parents who've dealt with a battle such as you have with your son. But we don't talk a lot about the losses that pile up in that story, and I wanna start really with the beginning of your story with your son, and you're working in government. I mean, this is a, now you're doing something completely unrelated to that, and it's because of your life experience. Give me a little bit of your background Yeah. Um, you know, I had one of those lives that I thought was really great. I, I was one of those people that sent Christmas cards that said how wonderful everything was in my family. You know, I had a full-time job, three kids. and what happened was, it was an ordinary day, and we got a call that night from the police, and we were living on an island, and they basically said, "We stopped your son, you know, he's drunk, and he has pills in the car." And I think it was-- he was 17 years old at the time, and he was a junior in high school. At that-- That was the beginning of the burst of my bubble, my sort of fantasy bubble about what a great life I had. Yeah, I had a, I had a really good job, know, life was full. Um, and that was the beginning. And at that point in time, immediately what we thought about was, "Well, what, what can we do to help him fix this problem?" Right. I think that's a completely normal reaction. We just wanna fix it, and if we're, you know, if we have the resources and we know how to research and fix other things… I, I know that's how I felt about my daughter initially. I mean, I can relate to what you're saying. I thought there's gotta be a solution here. When she started getting into some trouble, I was like, "Okay, how do we, how do we fix it? W- Yeah where's the easy fix," right? Yeah. Yeah, and, and the, the next was, um, his senior year, I got a call from the guidance counselor, and they said, "But his behavior is really strange." other things were happening too. I can remember having friends over for dinner, and he's, just talking-- it, it doesn't sound like him. He's just sort of spaced out and weird. But w- the turning point for me that senior year of high school was his best friend came to me and said, "He is in trouble." That was another of my bubble, and at that point in time, immediately I knew I have to get him into treatment. within days, he was in his first of many follow-up treatment centers, and that So f- from about age 17 on, y- you're dealing with this. And your other children, how were they impacted or affected by this? I mean, like you said, you had this per- picture perfect life. You sent out the Christmas cards, as many of us did. I also felt that same way for quite some time. Like, look at these great kids I have. I'm, I have a job that I love, and, uh, my life wasn't perfect by any means, but, uh, it could certainly have looked that way just as we see so many people on social media, it looks that way to someone on the out- on the outside Yeah. Yeah, I've, I have, um, my son is the youngest of three, and his siblings are a bit older than him. Um, and they were, um, they were both-- my daughter was off in college and my other son was, he was on his way. Um, so I think, you know, what I, what I've observed in the family over the years is everybody handles it differently. For example, my other son, the older son, he's now a doctor, and he's got a specialty in addiction medicine. kinda says something about what he's trying to do in his life and-- I remember when he went off to college, he said to me, "I have to put him in a compartment. I'm so upset about this. He's better looking than me, he's smarter than me, he's more talented than me, and I, I have to put him, I have to put…" He basically said, "I have to put him in a compartment. I just can't." And my daughter was just, she was just kind of gone in college. But over the years, everybody's, everybody's had their moments of withdrawing from him totally, being really angry, um, trying to reach out. Um, it's been all over the map, um, for all of us So you went through this cycle of, uh, getting him help. He's better maybe for a little while, and then he relapses. How many times did that occur? Oh. Well, I think he's-- I, I actually not 100% sure about this, but I think he's been in 20 treatment centers, along with that, a lot of detox before treatment. Um, many, many relapses. Y- his whole senior year, he was, um, was in treatment, and then he was at, in a halfway house for kids who had substance abuse problems. And when he came home, which was at the end of the year, the first thing he said, I still remember, we were on the tennis court, and I, the first thing he said to me is,"Well, I'm not planning to stay sober." And at that moment, I'm like, "Oh, wait a minute here. You have to be sober. You have no other choice in your life. You have to be sober." Well, that's what I used to think. I used to think that the antidote to addiction was sobriety. I'm not saying sobriety isn't good. I think it is good But, course know, over time, I began to realize that there's actually a more powerful antidote to addiction, and that's connection Yeah, and I've heard that saying before, that, that really connection is the solution to addiction because people who are suffering from substance use disorder feel so disconnected from everyone. And people get angry, and they get upset, and they withdraw, and they punish, and they shame, and they may try manipulating. I mean, I, I'm sure you've been through all of those things if he's been through treatment 20 times. Tell me about the tactics that you used that didn't work Oh boy. Well, the first thing was I suggested multiple things. He was in a lot of therapy, of all the treatment centers, um, 12-step meetings. Um, you know, when he was younger, we grounded him from the car. I mean, we, uh, um, trips, um, I mean, spiritual stuff'cause he is a spiritual kind of a guy, but I-- everything I could possibly think of what I suggested. And then ultimately, I f- I finally got to the point, um, where I realized nothing I'm, nothing I'm doing here is working. Something else is required How long did it take for you to get to that point where you sort of threw up your hands and said, "I've tried this, I've tried that, I've tried…" I mean, I'm sure you did research and reading, and people suggested things, and experts suggested things. How long did it take before you were at that point? Yeah. I, you know, I've really thought about that, um, 'cause I'm writing a book about this journey, and it, it really took me about 10 years, um, 10 years. Yeah, It's a long time fixing. You know, I went through that period of trying to fix and manage and manipulate and control. That went on for quite a while, you know, 'cause he was still young when this started, and Of course it's kind of tricky when your kid's, like, under 25. obviously, it's different now. My son's 35. But, It, it just seems different when, when the person is younger and their brains haven't formed and, um… But ultimately, um, know, I think I had to have time after time after time of new revelations, which took, which took me lower and lower and lower. You, you know, you know how they say in AA you hit bottom? Well, I hit, I hit bottom, If you're a mom who has lost a child, I wanna tell you about something close to my heart. Some dear friends of mine, mothers who have also lost children to fentanyl poisoning or overdose, are hosting the Sisters of Strength Warrior Moms Retreat this October 9th through the 11th at beautiful Wildwood Hills Ranch in St. Charles, Iowa. This is a weekend created by grieving mothers for grieving mothers. You'll spend time in nature, ride horseback, hike, paint, and create keepsakes in memory of your child, all alongside women who truly understand the depth of a mother's love and the weight of her loss. This weekend isn't about forgetting. It's about remembering with love, honoring our children's legacies, and discovering that even in loss, we rise together as warriors, as mothers, and as sisters. Please join us. You'll find the link and all the details in the show notes of this episode. I hope you'll consider giving yourself this gift tell me what you mean. What, what is, what was bottom for you? And then the uh, yeah, I had several things that occurred in the journey. One of the big ones was when, um, he revealed he was taking heroin, and that was-- Well, that was when he was in college. And, um, you know, alls I could think about… Uh, that was, like, the worst possible thing I could ever Yeah. of, and agree with you. I mean, I found out after my daughter's death that the drug she was using was heroin. We were a few days away from holding a intervention, and I was horrified. Horrified. I j- uh, I think for people our a- I think it's maybe more common, but for older people, it, it was just, like, the worst thing you could do. Like, it, uh, who would do that? Yeah. It's, it's like the, the picture I had in my mind of him, Yes you know, his hair is all messed up. He's got a needle in his arm. He's slumped over. He's shuffling. It, it-- That really, that was another, that was a bottom for me. Um, I had several of these. It's, it's these times that where things were so bad for me personally that I didn't wanna go on. I was like, "I don't know how I'm gonna navigate this in my life." and I had other moments of like that and that's an understandable emotion, don't you think, for a parent to feel like,"I can't… I mean, I have to constantly worry about this person, and nothing is working, and how do I continue on?" I think that is a normal response Yeah. I mean, yeah, it does, it does seem normal. And it, you know, it felt like how they described the dark night of the soul. It was just Yeah I was just sitting in darkness and despair. Um, Yes. I understand that feeling. And so what I also think is that there are so many losses. You lost your hope for the, your son's future, because we all as parents, even though we want our kids, you know, to find their own path and to figure out maybe what is best for them and, and where they shine and where they excel, when someone is addicted to substances, they're not excelling at anything. I mean, they're just, I- and so all of your dreams for your kids, even if you were gonna let your kid figure out their own dreams, that's not materializing Yeah. You know what it feels like to me? It's just like a heavy weight, and I don't know, Mm-hmm. To do. So a number of bottoms like that took me to that place. And, looking back on it now, I can see that that was necessary for me when there's nothing else to do, all there is to do is to surrender. And then, um, and then that's when a lot of shifts took place in me. of the shifts, big shift that kind of changed my whole trajectory when I was in this surrendering and dark place, was like, I realize I have a goal for him, and that is to be sober. And I've realized it's not my business to have a goal for him, that what I'm looking for, actually, the outcome I'm looking for is to have a loving relationship with him and healthy boundaries. That shift, among many other shifts that went through in my mind, like sub-- you know, the shift from sobriety is the antidote to connection is the antidote, helped me begin a kind of a new path through the darkness. And basically what I said to myself, "Okay, there's nothing really I can do here, um, but there is a way I can be." I wanna, I wanna pause on that'cause, uh, you said something I think quite profound there. Instead of doing, you went from doing to being, and there's a difference in that There is a huge difference in that. And of course, I didn't really know how to be with him You, you're at your wit's end. I mean, you were literally at your wit's end, right? Yeah. And so the, the big turning point for me was in two thousand eighteen. So that's what? Eight years ago now. And that's, that's when, um, that's what I write about in the story. It, it's, it, it's-- The first time I really showed up, I was visiting him in treatment, and I had visited him in treatment many, many other treatment centers. it was the first time that I went into treatment. ask any questions. I didn't anything. I simply listened. And he was not in a good spot in treatment. He was over-medicated, and he was out of it. And ha-- and I had gotten so triggered before the visit because he sou-he sounded terrible. But and I broke out in hives. I was flying to visit him, and I went through this whole physical experience I was learning how to shift how, who, who do I need to be here. And that visit was really difficult for me because he was so out of it. Um, he was over-medicated on Western drugs, I think. but I showed up really differently. And from that point on, uh, my journey with him has been different. And then one of the next things I did is I did what I call the, a listening tour, is one of the things I realized, you know, when I started really listening to my son, you know, and I read from some expert that, you know, you're dealing with an addict, the que-- you don't ask the question,"When are you gonna be sober?" Which is what the question I asked for years. It's, "Tell me about your pain." And I finally got to a place where I could start to listen my son's pain. And went-- I did this listening tour. I went, I visited him. He was in a sober house by then, and I visited him like every month or six weeks, and I simply stayed with a couple of days in a hotel, we'd drive around or hike around, and I just listened to him. And I started to really get to know the person. And in that journey, I realized, gosh, he is nothing like I thought he was. He, he's one of those people that you-- that I hear a lot about on your show. You know, this, he was a star athlete. He was a gifted musician. He seemed really popular. That is not what his experience-- He wa-- He did not feel like he fit in, and I never got it as a mother. I never got it until later now in these years where I started listening Wow. That is amazing. And I think it is hard for a parent to witness their child's pain because we wanna pro- our whole job is to protect them from pain, to stop the pain, right? Yeah. It was agonizing, you know, for me to realize how much I had really not gotten him as g- And he actually did tell us when he was young that he had social anxiety, but I never believed it because he seemed… I didn't believe it.'Cause he kind of over- overrode it. He was so outgoing and all of these things, you didn't… You thought maybe he was just making that up. it. Yeah. Yeah. I, and so you get to really know your son. He's going through, you know, he's in sober living, he's gone through another treatment. It's hard not to place conditions on somebody, anybody that we love, right? Like, I mean, our, our love is unconditional as a parent, but it's so hard when they're using substances if they, um, relapse and go back to using again. You feel like it's just such a failure at that point. So how do you change your perspective from looking at relapse as a failure to continuing to show up for your son unconditionally Yeah without expectations for sobriety or recovery? My, that, a really hard one. Fir- first thing I had to do was change my whole attitude about relapses, which is, you know, I used to think they were horrible. Uh, my son has had many relapses. Society thinks they're horrible. Society judges the person who's suffering from substance use disorder. I've, I've seen it, I've heard it, I, I know it. So it, you know, that's just how we're conditioned too. Yeah. Yeah. But I shifted my attitude about it. Um, it's like, no, it's part of the, it's part of the growth journey, and I ha- I got to a place I, you know, I also experienced him being homeless in this 18-year journey with him. That was really hard too. I got to a place where I said to myself, "You know, I can't really trust him because he's an addict." Um and it, and he obviously has lied. Um, but I can trust his process. I think that's a bit of a spiritual leap, uh, you know, to say, "I have to trust his process because don't have anything else to hang onto." And if relapses are part of his process, then so be it. Now, are they easy? Never. Never. They're still not easy. When he relapses, I'm like, "Oh, darn it," but I don't, I don't go into a spiral by any means anymore It is amazing that he's still alive in today's drug landscape it's totally amazing that he's still alive. He's had multiple overdoses, one of the things I'm writing about in my book is that guy, he's had an army of angels. I-- he has had-- even street when he was homeless, the fellow street people that he was with and hanging around with told him, "You don't belong here. You, you need to get off the street." And he had multiple people who helped him, um, and I feel really grateful for that. It's-- But yes, he's had a lot of overdoses. He's been, you know, in the ER multiple times. You know, one time he overdosed in the bathroom of an Indian restaurant in Seattle, and they had to break the door down, and they gave him Narcan. It's-- I, I don't know why he's still alive and it, it-- but he is resilient, I'll say that. I mean, I think we, we distribute naloxone at Emily's Hope, and I always say we just want to keep them alive, people who are using, until we can get them the help that they need. Yeah But what if they never get the help they need? What if… I mean, it's just, it's that question I don't like to think about because I want to think that people are treated for an overdose and, and, and they get the help and they find recovery. And while it may not be a perfectly straight road, for the most part they do much better, and that's not necessarily the case No. I think that was, that was one of the things I had to accept. I had to accept that he could be gone tomorrow because of Yeah all the dr- the drugs he uses. He could get sober, you know, or, know, he could be in and out of sobriety, which is what he is right now How do you live with that without feeling like a dark cloud is following you around everywhere you go? Well, you know, part of how I live with that is by to make the lemonade, the lemons of my journey into lemonade. talking to other parents. Um, you know, I've been in Al-Anon recovery for over twenty years, and, this is what, you know, I sponsor people, I help people. I talk about my journey. I've given three sermons at my church. I talk about the journey openly, um, so that--'cause I know the isolation. I'm sure you do, too. you know, so that if people can hear a story told, you know, hear, hear the story, then they might reach out and come out of their isolation, which I think is a huge problem for people like me, and I It is. People feel judged and people feel as if they, if they would tell the truth about what's happening with their loved one, they would be judged and ostracized, and that no one else is exa- ex- is experiencing this situation, and we know that's simply not true. I'm sure when you've spoken about it, people come up and say, "I've been through something similar." Yeah. So I think it's im-- f-for me, it's important for me to tell this story to help other people in the same situation. And that's how I deal with it. And I also have other people to live for. You know, I have two grandchildren now. I have my two older kids. You know, I have a big family. have people to live for, and you know… That keeps me going too. Right, right. You're not just a, you're not alone. It's not just you and your son, which might be more difficult even. But- What is it, do you think, that has kept your son in your life? Is it that moment where you stopped and said, "I'm just gonna listen now. I'm gonna stop trying to fix, stop judging, stop fixing, just listening"? And were you able to keep that up? Well, you know, I've had my moments, uh, go- c- going in and out of everything. Um, but, but I, I think when I heard that, you know, from Gabor Maté and this other guy who did a podcast, you know, the whole that, um, that connection was the antidote to addiction, it just struck me in the heart. it's, you know, I just think as a mother, uh, it-- I just can't imagine a life where I don't try to stay connected with my son. Where you cut him off because he continues to use. Right. Right the question for me became, how do I stay connected a person who's in and out of sobriety, who may never get sober? That was the, that was the, that's the thing I sit with all the time because he's not always in contact. You know, he'll lose a phone. He hasn't been homeless for a while, but he went through a period of being homeless. do you stay connected with somebody? it's, you know, when I did one of my sermons, I thought about, um, like an image that's found everywhere in mythology, and just of the, the mother who stays. I think that the mother who stays despite the agon- how agonizing watching the suffering of her kid is. And I can't tell you how or when, but I just got to that point where I love that k- I love that boy, man now, unconditionally, and I'm gonna stay, and I'm gonna take care of myself. That was the big piece. You know, I do have a healthy boundary with him. Yeah, what is your boundary? him, I won't have him live with me. Um, I, you know, I don't give him cash. Those are, those are two big things. Um- you'll feed him or clothe him, but Yeah. give him cash. Yeah I'll take him out to dinner for sure. yeah, and I'll, I'll buy him birthday presents and Christmas presents, but you know, I make it a priority to take care of myself, um, so I can be with him 'cause, uh, that f- it feels like kind of an advanced state. You know, there's nothing to do really anymore, but there is certainly a way to be and, you know, to be I have to, you know, I have to stick with my meditation practices and yoga and it's, you know… A lot of conversations I have with him are challenging. You know, it's, it-- and can I be with that and be okay? And that, yeah, I'm getting better and better at it Takes practice is what I hear you saying. And tell me about your essay, The Empty Chair. What was your message in that? Yeah. So it's been great to really start focusing on writing about this thing because it's allowed me to step up from the day-to-day of it to really look at the arc that I've gone through as a mother. And W-what I've, what I've observed in my journey with my son is in the beginning, it was doing, fixing, controlling, managing, manipulated. Then I got to the place of surrender. You know, there's nothing I can do that's gonna get him sober. And then it's the place to-- then it's to the place of, well, who am I gonna be in this matter? am I gonna be in relationship to him? So that's kind of the arc of the story. But the, the story is ongoing. It doesn't have a happy ending, it has a really bright light in it right now'cause I've realized, I've realized something amazing. First, has been a great teacher for me, the greatest teacher I've had this lifetime. If it weren't for him, um, I have learned so much in my journey with him. Uh, I don't necessarily wish this kind of journey on people to learn and grow, but it is, has been my journey, and I've become kinder, and I understand better people who don't fit into society, and I'm certainly more humble. Um, and the su-- the big surprise so far has been thought all along I was gonna be the person. I would shine my light that he could find his way back home. And ironically, what I think's happened is he's been the one to help me grow. Um, it's, it's-- Because of my journey with him, I had to turn inward. I had to own my shadow. I had to really look at myself, and, and I think I've become a much better person because of it. So where I was starting out thinking I'm helping him, actually he's helping me. Now am I sup-- Uh, d-do I support him? Yeah, I m-- Yeah, I, I hope I'm helping him too. But the point of the story is it's the big reversal. Um, you do your own work, you can be surprised. So I was looking for his transformation, meaning be sober, Mm-hmm I got my own transformation. that's an amazing thing, and I completely understand what you're saying because I do think while I would get my daughter back in a moment if I could, her death truly did transform me in ways that are positive, right? And you don't wanna think something positive can come out of something so negative. But also, I think you have given your son an incredible gift of unconditional love, because so many parents follow what people tell them to do. Cut 'em off. Don't enable 'em. If they're homeless, don't let 'em, you know, don't, don't buy 'em food. Don't… Get, let 'em hit rock bottom and then they'll wanna change. Well, we all know rock bottom is death today, and you have shown your son unconditional love. You have boundaries, but not many people in their lives get to know unconditional love. They don't Yeah. I, I, I think I had to really learn what it was through him, and also a really big surprise for me is, um, that I've learned to hold the grief I have, and, you know, I call it ambiguous grief because physically he's still on the planet. It's not like the grief you have where your daughter is gone. Um, but I've learned to hold the grief and really acknowledge it. it's, you know, it's heartbreaking when he's not the moments that matter most with my family. It's heartbreaking for me. Um, he is missed, and that's why, that's why I call my story The Empty Chair. It's like his chair is empty, and that's agonizing. But a-along with holding the grief, I hold the gratitude. It's like, wow, thank you so much. It's like I am such a better person today than I used to be. It's… Um, and I know things aren't how you want them to be, and so often in life they aren't, right? What- whether it's with a child or with a something else. The- things just, we cannot necessarily mold life to be what we want it to be. It's the acceptance of what life is right now in the moment. That acceptance, whether your child is gone, whether your child is still using substances, or whether they're in recovery or whatever it might be, y- you have to accept that this is the way it is right now. And it's so hard for people to do that because we always want it a different way Yeah. Yeah. And I've, I've kind of given that up. It's, Sounds like you have of, I've given up, Yes. like, it's grief that's not acknowledged in our society. It's, it's grief that goes kind of under the radar. Nobody walks up to you and says,"Oh, I'm so sorry that your son isn't living the life you hoped for. I'm so sorry that he wasn't at the last family Christmas." Nobody does that for you Yeah. Yeah, it, it in and of itself, it can be isolating. And it's interesting too, in my life, um, my-- one of my sisters has advanced dementia, so I've also experienced the ambiguous grief with her since she's still here physically, but, you know, really not here. And, and so, yeah, I have, I have experience with it and, you know, for a long time I couldn't-- I didn't even know I was grieving. Um, and then I fi-- I, I think I probably stumbled across something that I read about ambiguous grief and my gosh, that's, that's what I have. It's like it's… But yeah, it is isolating 'cause what I've noticed is over the years, most people don't ask me about him anymore. Some still do, for sure, but most people don't. And it's, it's, it's kind of one of the things I put in my story. It's, it's almost like he's forgotten, and I will never forget him. That's, that's- Right. And neither will the rest of your family. And quite frankly, he set the course for your other son's life who became a physician in addiction medicine, right? And who's probably helping and saving people because of what your family experienced. You know? So the, the things that come out of the, the, the friction that we experience in life, the negative things can often, you know, help others along the way Yeah. Are you ready to protect the next generation from the dangers of substance use? Emily's Hope has created a comprehensive K through 12 substance use prevention curriculum designed to educate, empower, and equip students with the tools they need to make healthy choices. Our age appropriate lessons start in kindergarten and build through high school using science, real stories, and interactive learning to help kids understand their bodies, brains, and risk of drug use. We're already reaching thousands of students across multiple states, and we're just getting started. Visit emilyshopeedu.org to learn more, and share our curriculum with your school administrators and counselors. At Emily's Hope, we believe prevention begins with education. Let's work together to keep our kids safe. After working in the US Environmental Protection Agency for 26 years as a supervisor, manager, and director, Barb decided to switch gears and became an independent coach, consultant, and trainer. She has now created her own business, Thrive Coaching and Consulting. You can find out more information by checking out our show notes. And while you're there, we'd appreciate it if you'd just take a moment to rate and review our podcast, and please share it with a loved one who may find it helpful Most of my coaching business has actually been coaching leaders, people who wanna be leaders. Um, and, you know, most of my work with like myself, you know, with a journey with a relative who's an addict, has actually come through recovery, um, 12-step recovery and sponsoring people. I am starting to coach some people um, you know-- I like to think, I guess, I guess the target for me would be people who were at the place I once was, wit's end. That's the best way to describe it. don't know what else to do. And, that's the place that I wanna work with people going forward. Um- What would be your biggest advice to somebody who has a loved one, whether that be a child or a spouse or who is struggling right now in the moment, who is where you were, you know, a decade ago or however long it's been now? What, what advice do you have for them? Mm. f- advice is to get support, whatever that looks like. I mean, for me, uh, Al-Anon has really been great support for me. work for everybody. I mean, there's so many different ways people can get support, is critical because of the isolation. You know, the, the is-- you know, I, I know you must know that too, but the isolation that comes from embarrassment and, know, shame, like I've got a k- a kid that isn't doing well. So this, this too, I would say is, um, I mean, if I were working with people, I would say pause. You know, take a look at what's really going on, then this actually would be coaching. W- is the kind of person you wanna be in this going forward if it never gets better? That's actually kind of a coaching question, but that's what I like to help people with. It's like, um, you're so focused on what's wrong, you know, to get people to start looking at, okay, we know what you don't like here, but what do you want? That's where I made the shift from he's, he needs to be sober to I'm going to create a relationship with him that's loving and that has a healthy boundary. So No matter what. No matter what what. No matter, no matter what, no matter what. It doesn't mean I don't have my moments with him where I'm like, "I have to take a break." I just, you know, I have my moments for sure, Well, and anyone… the, I'm on a path. Right. And anyone who is struggling with someone using, you know, you have to, you have to set those boundaries and say, "Okay, that's, this is enough for me today. I, I, I, you know, I have to remove myself, uh, from the situation for a while, but I'm not removing myself forever." I think that's the key That is the key. And sometimes, know, the way I stay connected with him is I just, you know, I pray for him. know, I send him good vibes, you know, electronic, you know, telepathically. It's, you know, sometimes he hasn't had a phone. I mean, long periods of time he hasn't had a phone, so I can't text him. But it, you know, you, you can still keep the person in your thoughts and mind and, um, that's what I try to do And let me ask you this. We all want a happy ending. You know, Hollywood has conditioned us to l- let's have that happy ending where we can wrap things up and put a bow on that. And you say your story does not have that happy ending. Can you still be happy without it? Yeah. yes. That's, that's the big, um, that's the big revelation, and I think what eludes people when they're in the throes of it. Like, you know, it's, it's in recovery what they talk about is y- finding serenity, and that's really one reason I wanna tell the story is so people can realize that even if circumstances difficult for you, you can still have a great life and find peace and serenity. And that's, that's really kind of the message in this whole thing. But you have to learn to be with it. And that's, that's the thing. You have to learn to be with what might not, what might be a really messy ending or no resolution. But then again, it might have… I, I will never give up hope that, I know that's one of the words you used. I will never give up hope he will find his place. That's what I really want for him now, find his place and live a happy life. And there's still time. As long as someone is alive, there is hope. And so while what I hear you saying is that you were able to, when you talk about surrender, I also think about detachment. You were able to detach from a certain outcome that you previously had to have. You were able to maintain a relationship with your son who may be using and who may not be at certain periods of time, depending on what was happening with him. But that doesn't mean that you've given up hope for a better future for him. You just aren't attached to it that that has to happen Right. And what that better future could look like will likely be very different than the future I once envisioned for him when he was a star performer, this and that, you know? And that's-- And Right I'm really okay with that now, but years ago, I wouldn't have been okay with it. I had to go through all this mess to get to this place Of course, there's no easy path there because we all see the potential in our kids, right? Of course to live up that potential, to be the best version of themselves. But that's not up to us. It's not. And, and we aren't puppet masters, and we can't control the people around us, even our own children. And I think what you've learned is such a valuable lesson, and the fact that you can articulate it and pass it along to other people is a great gift Thanks. I hope so. I hope so too, and I think I'll be very anxious to read your book when it comes out. I hope that you'll get a copy my way Oh, I sure will. Yeah. I'm, I'm in the process now of writing it, so I've got a lot. That's-- Oh, that's one thing I did in my journey. I started writing, and hey, I came from the government. I used to write government emails. Okay. You, you Boring. Boring. and I'm like, "Okay." I started writing a blog, and then I just started writing e-e- especially at the start of the pandemic. I started writing series of turning points that I went through with my son, now-- So I have a ton of written material, and now I just have to put it all in a book. Yeah, you're just like me. I've got this blog I've been writing since the, my daughter's death, and I just gotta get it all in a book. I've been writing the transitions and, um, running a charity, and I'm finding it's taking a lot longer than it should. Um, but, but good for you writing that down and recognizing, identifying those turning points because that will help others Yeah. Yeah it's been really healing too. So I guess that's another piece of advice. You know, find something that's an outlet for yourself, and I was surprised to find that writing has been an amazing outlet for me. me too. Once I get it on paper, I feel like, oh, I've lifted this weight from my heart and my mind, uh, once it's on paper. Well, thank you for working on that. I look forward to reading the final version when you're done with it, and thank you for sharing your son's story and what you've been through with our listeners and viewers. I think it's so important that people understand … The, the main thing I think it does is it destigmatizes the person suffering from substance use disorder, because they, it's still your son. He's still a person. You mentioned he's been your greatest teacher, even though it's been a difficult, difficult lesson. I think we can't just discard people, as we so often do in this society, because they have an issue like substance use disorder. And the more we talk about it, like we're doing on this podcast, the more we humanize people like your son and others Yeah. That makes me really happy. Yeah. Thank you for doing this. Oh, of course. Thank you for being here And thank you for listening to this episode of Grieving Out Loud. If you or someone you know is struggling with substance use disorder, please don't wait to seek help. Your life matters. You can find a list of helpful resources on our website, emilyshope.charity. We've also included a direct link in the show notes. On our website, you can also check out hundreds of other Grieving Out Loud episodes, learn more about our K through 12 substance use prevention curriculum, and stay up-to-date on the latest news surrounding addiction, mental health, and the fentanyl epidemic. Thank you again for taking the time to learn more about this important topic. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Wandenberg King and Kayli Fitz