One day he was walking down the street in San Jose and he got jumped by, uh, five guys, and he got stabbed 11 times, and they crushed his skull open, and he had to have brain surgery and a metal plate put in his head. And, um, mean, it was-- he definitely had pain. Um, so when the doctor stopped prescribing it, he went to the streets, and that's where he found heroin and then eventually fentanyl. And, um, I remember him telling me at one point towards the end that it was, you know, " Mom, I, I've be- I've turned into somebody I don't like anymore. I don't like who I've become." And, um, watching your child go turn into somebody that they don't even recognize and powerless to change it, know, is torture and I had to do a lot of writing about that I'm not God and I couldn't save him, and I tried to say the right thing or manipulate him or buy him the right kind of jeans and… it doesn't work that way, I think one of the most painful things that I'm, I've been working through is that towards the end, you know, I had tried everything with him except tough love. So in the end I, I finally tried tough love. You know, he'd call me and he'd, you know, "Come pick me up, Mom." And the last time I talked to him was- Uh, the last time I talked to him, he was, uh He was stuck somewhere and he was asking me to come pick him up and, you know, he said it was so bad and, "Mom, it's And I told him no. Some people respond to the worst moment of their lives by going quiet, and some people respond by running, not away, but towards something. Toward awareness, toward community, toward the belief that if more people just knew, fewer families would have to go through what they went through. Leslie Collins is one of those people. On July 24th of 2021, she lost her son Jolly, who was 22 years old. He was trying to detox and died on his third night in a recovery home. The cause was fentanyl, the same poison that killed my daughter. It doesn't give people a second chance, and it doesn't care how hard someone is trying. Out of that loss, Leslie created the Jolly 10K, a fentanyl awareness fun run that is now in its fifth year. The event brings together education, community, remembrance, and the kind of honest conversation that can save lives. Leslie also brings something rare to this work: 14 years of her own recovery. She knows firsthand that there is life on the other side of addiction, and she is determined to help others find it. She's a mom, an advocate, and a living testament to the idea that grief and purpose can run together. Welcome to Grieving Out Loud, Leslie. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's, it's a pleasure We got connected through someone that I met at a conference, uh, about the overdose epidemic and fentanyl poisoning epidemic, and I'm so grateful to meet you and to hear Jolly's story. Let's start off with his name, because it's an unusual name It is. It is. Um, he's actually People always ask me if it's a nickname, but it's actually, he's the fifth generation Jolly. So it's like grandpa's, uh, great-grandpa, uncles, and so it's, it's a, it's a family tradition. In the home, we called him Christian by his middle name. But yeah, once he got, uh, to school age, he absolutely loved it 'cause he was one of a kind. Tell me about Jolly then. And, and was, was… But first I wanna know, was there a, a reason this name originated in your family, or maybe you don't even know? I, I, I don't know. It's on his father's side, so I don't On his dad's side. Okay his grandpa was, um, from Arkansas. He was a knife maker, and he was the first that I'm aware of, Jolly Okay. And so tell me about your Jolly. W- what kind of kid was he? Oh my goodness. He was one of the kind of kids, even when he was a baby, he would always, he always wanted to see his mama laugh. So he would- we'd go roller skating or rollerblading, and he'd, he'd look at me and he'd kick his foot out from under him and tumble 'cause we were … He was all padded up, of course. But anything to make me smile. And, uh, even as he grew older, he was one of those boys who always wanted to hold my hand. You know, he bragged about his mama being the coolest and, and, uh, he wanted to take me everywhere. And even when he got taller than me, always wanted to hold his mama's hand. So was, um, Sounds so sweet and jolly. Of course you miss it. I'm sure you miss it every day. When did substances come into play in his life? So I had, um, I had left-- When I got into my disease, I had left, um, him and his sister with my mom. And, um, honestly, I, I think that in a way he was trying to connect with me somehow, so he started smoking pot. Substance use disorder often runs in families. While much about addiction is not fully understood, research shows genetics can play a significant role. That's something Leslie's family knows firsthand. Her father struggled with alcohol addiction, and Leslie says she first started drinking in sixth grade. When I started drinking, I immediately, I couldn't stop. Um, and it progressed from harder things throughout my life, and I s- I actually spent 26 years in my addiction. Um, but today I have 14 years clean. But I had to go, I had to go through every step of the darkness and the despair and the isolation, and I had to re- get to a place where there was, um, all the doors closed and I had no other choice but to change because it was too painful to stay that way. And once I into treatment, like I've never looked back. I'm just super grateful that I had the opportunity because in the middle of the disease, you'd have no idea how to get out. You s- even if you're miserable and you want so badly to get out, know how. So I'm grateful that they have programs where they'll take you in and teach you a new way of life And how old was Jolly when you were able to get into recovery? Uh, he was 15. 15. So he did experience your substance use disorder. How do you think that impacted him? Um I think that by me leaving when he was eight, and I'd come back periodically, and I'd always be-- be high or I'd be chaotic and, and, um, think that it left him with an emptiness, like an emptiness inside of him that he was trying to fill. And then, um, on top of that, what really started, um, spiraling him is that when he was, he was in football and he had a spinal injury in football. then he started going for pills. And then, and then he got attacked. One day he was walking down the street in San Jose and he got jumped by, uh, five guys, and he got stabbed 11 times, and they crushed his skull open, and he had to have brain surgery and a metal plate put in his head. And, um, mean, it was-- he definitely had pain. Um, so when the doctor stopped prescribing it, he went to the streets, and that's where he found heroin and then eventually fentanyl. And, um, I remember him telling me at one point towards the end that it was, you know, "Mom, I, I've be- I've turned into somebody I don't like anymore. I don't like who I've become." And, um, watching your child go turn into somebody that they don't even recognize and powerless to change it, know, is torture Well, I, I wanna, Leslie, I wanna unpack what you said just now, because it was a lot . It was a lot. So first of all, you dealt with your own disease, and because of that, it impacted your children. And I, I'm not blaming you in any way, and I do hope that you don't blame yourself. Just as someone else's disease of the body would impact their children, your disease of the mind, and the brain, and the body, all of it, right, it encompasses all of it, impacted your kids. So your son also had the genetic predisposition, just as you had the genetic predisposition, um, that something is passed down generationally. And then to top it off, your son suffers a football injury, and then this horrible attack that you just described to me. And I cannot tell you how many parents I have talked to where the addiction starts with a couple of things, smoking pot before your, marijuana before your brain is fully developed. We know how bad that is now for kids. Um, alcohol's not good either, but we, we know how bad marijuana, especially the high-potency marijuana today, is on the developing brain. And then to be prescribed opioids at a young age. Countless parents I have talked to have told me that is how their kid's addiction started Yeah. And then on, like with the social media today that I-- when he was 16, I was learning that he was able to order it on- Access. and have it Access. Yes It's like, it's crazy that just delivered to the front doorstep and it's, it's so easily accessible. And then, um, and then with today's fentanyl being put in the pills and they can't tell and they can't smell it or taste it or it's-- there's absolutely no way of knowing. So it's, it's just a death sentence for our My heart breaks for they yeah, my heart breaks for Jolly because I feel like he had all the cards stacked against him, basically, for survival. For survival. Oh, I am so sorry It's, it's-- he was a really happy kid. It's one of the things that I, I love hearing is that, um, like I knew that he was a happy kid and, and he loved, uh, he was always friendly to everyone as a child. But when I-- he passed, I was able to hear from, you know, people that he was hanging out with, um, that like he, no matter how bad they felt, he was encouraging them. He, you know, "It's always gonna be okay," you know,"Stick it out, you're gonna be okay." And then he also-- Like being able to hear those things about him and that he, you know, the last year of his life, he was actually-- There was nine people that he had Narcaned and saved, and gave CPR to until the ambulance came. That's how rampant it was around him. But just knowing that he had, was able to save some lives, it just, it does a little bit of healing in my I'm sure But yeah, I do, th- I know that I couldn't-- I know that it wasn't all my fault, but I did have a big part to play in why he leaned towards drugs. But then there's, on the flip side of that, it's after he died, the tormenting thoughts, you know, "I should've done this. I should've done more. If I would've not been an addict, if I would've got clean sooner," the tormenting thoughts come over you. And, uh, it took a-- It has taken me a lot of work on step work and writing and prayer to forgive myself a little bit for what I blame myself for, Yeah, I, I understand that, and I'm sure we all blame ourselves to some extent of what we did do, what we didn't do, how we responded to something. I just recently wrote a blog about how my response failed to my daughter in a time of real crisis. So we've all, as parents, and, and show me a perfect parent, um, you know, give me the handbook to become a perfect parent. But when you have the added, um, issue of substance u- your own substance use disorder, I, I can imagine that there are dark places that you can go. Like, and so what did it take for you, what was most effective for you in coming to terms with… You can't change the past. You can't change what you did or didn't do as a parent when our kids were younger. But what did it take for you to be able to kind of come to terms with that? it is, it's been a It's ongoing, right? yeah. It's-- There's-- Like I can, I can still remember what it felt like right afterwards. Like mind, it's like the reality cracks and my mind broke, you know? Um, and was a point that I can remember that I had to either-- I had a choice to make. Like, am I gonna be angry? Am I going to, you know, blame and be angry and, and epic- I did that for a couple days, and it was so dark and it's so painful I had to scream out to God like, "I can't do this." Like, and I had a choice to make whether I was going to see God's hand in everything or if I was gonna go towards the darkness, and I had to-- I still today choose every day that I have to see God's hand in it. Like, um, and I had to do a lot of writing about that I'm not God and I couldn't save him, and I tried to say the right thing or manipulate him or buy him the right kind of jeans and… it doesn't work that way, you know? I know as a woman in recovery that fix anybody else. You know, I can't unzip my recovery and pour it into somebody and they'll be cured. a mother, I thought that I could love him the right way, and that didn't work either, you know? And, um, it was, I think one of the most painful things that I'm, I've been working through is that towards the end, you know, I had tried everything with him except tough love. So in the end I, I finally tried tough love. You know, he'd call me and he'd, you know, "Come pick me up, Mom." And the last time I talked to him was- Uh, the last time I talked to him, he was, uh He was stuck somewhere and he was asking me to come pick him up and, you know, he said it was so bad and, "Mom, it's And I told him no. You know, I said, "I can't come pick you up 'cause you're just gonna use again. I can't come save you, know? And, uh, this you have to do on your own." And, uh, I said, "Go back to that treatment center and you sleep on the front porch if you have to, and you tell them that you're not le-- Your mom said you can't leave until they let you back in." And, um, he said, "Okay, Mom, if anything happens to me out here, I love you." And that was the last time I talked to him. Well, what I found out was he did go back, and he did sleep on the front porch, and he told them, "My mom said I can't leave until you let me back in." And, uh, let him into the treatment center, and he was fighting and, uh, he wanted to stay clean, and he was fighting for a different life. And, um, but he, he was suffering, and he was in pain. And, um, on the third night, he went to sleep, and they found him the next morning. And, um What I know to be true is that, that I-- there were a few prayers that I prayed the last year of his life. was like, um, "God, keep him alive long enough to choose a different path." And he did. He chose recovery. He chose to get clean. turn out the way I wanted, but God answered that prayer. And, uh, and then I prayed that He would be surrounded with kingdom men who he would listen to. And he was. He was surrounded by a bunch of men who prayed for him and I believe prayed him into heaven. And then I prayed that, "God, whatever you have to do to save my son, I trust you." You know? And I believe that that's what had to be done because there's no way of knowing if the pain that he suffered from the brain injury and the spinal deterioration would have ever subsided. So he may have always sought drugs. So I have to choose to believe saved him from… And, uh, and it's a-- I have to choose every day to see God's hand in it, otherwise I'll go crazy, you know? So that gives me calm and peace If you're a mom who has lost a child, I wanna tell you about something close to my heart. Some dear friends of mine, mothers who have also lost children to fentanyl poisoning or overdose, are hosting the Sisters of Strength Warrior Moms Retreat this October 9th through the 11th at beautiful Wildwood Hills Ranch in St. Charles, Iowa. This is a weekend created by grieving mothers for grieving mothers. You'll spend time in nature, ride horseback, hike, paint, and create keepsakes in memory of your child, all alongside women who truly understand the depth of a mother's love and the weight of her loss. This weekend isn't about forgetting. It's about remembering with love, honoring our children's legacies, and discovering that even in loss, we rise together as warriors, as mothers, and as sisters. Please join us. You'll find the link and all the details in the show notes of this episode. I hope you'll consider giving yourself this gift I thank you for sharing all that with us, and I think your faith is amazing. It's admirable. Not everyone can find that faith and the strength in that kind of faith. I know before Emily died, I, I pr- I was praying, and I'm, was born and raised Catholic, so I was praying at one of the holiest places on Earth, uh, s- St. Paul's Cathedral in Rome, in the Vatican. And I was happy to be there on a trip, and it was, um, a few months before she died, and I was praying that, you know, she become the best possible version of herself, that, that I, I prayed God can use all things for good. And in a way, God has. He, you know, used her death for good, but it h- uh, it was still very hard to accept the fact that this could happen. But I have to remind myself that it's also other people's actions that caused this, not just my daughter's action in being dependent on a drug, but also somebody had to put fentanyl in the drug that she was taking. Well, she wasn't seeking fentanyl at the time. It was a few years, you know, before Jolly died. And it's so hard. It's so hard to live with these things, and I think The way that you've been able to frame it is a way that has to help you go on and help you forgive yourself. Because we, so much of this, and while your own substance use disorder may have had an impact on Jolly, y- you didn't cause him to have a football injury and get prescribed opioids. You didn't cause him to be atta- I mean, there's so much in the outside world out of our control going on that w- it's simply not just one thing or one factor. Because there's lots of kids who grow up with parents with substance use disorder who don't develop it themselves, right? Who go in the opposite direction. Like my daughter. Right, So you have two kids from the same house, right? And so there's my, there's my touche, my, my, my, my case in point. Yeah, she's always followed every rule. She d- she's never tried anything. She steers away from anything that has anything to do with, you know, smoking pot, doing dr- I've got other kids like that too. So yeah. Yeah. Um, so y- so if, I always say, if I take all the blame for Emily's death, then do I get all the credit for, for the kid who's not doing that? Um, and I say that doesn't make any sense, so therefore you and I as mothers are not in control. We are not in control, and we can't take all the blame or all the credit for anything that happens with our children, Yeah. They're their own independent human beings with their own thoughts and feelings, and can guide or be examples, either good or bad, but control, And sometimes the, the bad example makes kids wanna go in the opposite direction, so who's to say, you know? I, I just, it's just so, I, you see parents who, who were not maybe as involved or as caring, you know, as you were after you found recovery, whose kids, you know, turn out great. They don't have these issues. And I'm not saying our kids weren't great, but they don't have the same issues, and you wonder why. Why is that, you know? Um, but yeah, I think forgiveness of yourself, um, you know, you did the best at the time with what, what you could do. And, and when you could do better, you did better, and I think we all need to think about that. exactly. And so, Yeah following, you know, Jolly's death, I mean, obviously you have another child, and tell me more about how you have coped with your grief I have a wonderful program of people. Like, um, What, what I've learned in recovery is that no matter what I-- no matter what you go through, somebody's already gone through it, and so they can show you the, how to get through it. um, I learned early in recovery that if I brought something to the group or if I brought something to my tribe, my circle of women, um, and I was authentic, then I… Because what I learned is that if I share authentically, then our hearts can connect. And if I'm, I have coverup and I, I'm just talking out my neck or whatever, it's, nobody can connect with that. But if I'm authentic and genuine, and I tell the truth, and I express how I'm really feeling, what I'm really going through, no matter if I'm crying or snot coming out of my nose, or if I haven't taken a shower in a week, because sometimes was hard in the beginning. Um, like someone will say, "You know what? too. gone through that. This is, this is how I'm getting through it." You know? So I think being able to have a outlet to talk about it with people who understand was huge, where I felt safe to be, bring any version of myself, any version of my grief forward, and they would love me and c- and help carry me through it. Like, that was huge for me. Um, also I also-- One of my biggest fears w- i-i-in the beginning was that people were gonna forget about him. would forget that my son lived, you know? And, um, and he was real high maintenance. He like-- He was like always wanted to dress nice, so he always wanted to be fussed over. So I was like, "Okay, well, I, I want to f-- I need fuss over him. I need people to-- I need to hear people say his name. I need you to remember that my son lived. He was, he was here, and he mattered." And, um, and we used to hike in the Los Gatos trails in the mountains the time he was on a baby backpack, till he grew up. You know, we'd hike that trail together. Have you lost a loved one to overdose or fentanyl poisoning? I'd like to invite you to share their story on our new Emily's Hope Memorial website called More Than Just a Number. They were our children, siblings, cousins, husbands, wives, aunts, uncles, and friends. So much more than just a number. You can submit a memorial today on morethanjustanumber.org. Because hiking was something Leslie and Jolly enjoyed doing together, Leslie chose to honor her son by creating the Jolly 10K and 5K Fun Run held each year in Los Gatos, California. The event not only gives her a chance to keep her son's name alive, but has also grown into a space where people can have honest, difficult conversations about the deadly impact of fentanyl and addiction In the beginning was just a way to remember Jolly, you know? And, um, and I got some of my core people. They helped me. We set up this little event. I went down to, um, downtown Los Gatos, and I talked to Willie Harmatz, was a, um, track coach at Los Gatos High School for, like, 30 years, and he, He organized the, what is it? The Dam It Run in Los Gatos for 40 years. So I got good advice on how to create this event. And, um, and also took, um, tips from Lost Voices of Fentanyl, they have their events, and they set up, um, banners with photos and forever names and ages. So I took that piece. So I take pieces from all the people who-- that are doing really-- did something really well that I wanted to implement into my event. And so we created this event, and it's, um… Over the past five years, it's blossomed. And what started out as remembering my son turned into remembering everyone's loved ones. You know, we have, uh-- I a new banner every year'cause that's how many faces keep dying, you know? Um, and we have, uh, we have the fire department of Los Gatos giving hands-on CPR lessons. We give out Narcan. We have a, um-- One of my best friends is a licensed clinical psychologist. She gives, um, she gives little talks, and then she has, uh-- meets you at the Narcan booth and for anybody who needs some counseling. I have, uh, one of my other friends is a director of support systems homes for 25 years. So, so and I have different recovery homes with testimonials of people who've been on fentanyl and survived it and how their life has changed. And, uh, and I remember this one year, I think it was the third year, where this woman walked up. She was an older woman, and she looked You know that look we have right after Yes die? That look in your eyes, and you could just, uh-- If you know that You can-- If you If you've lost a child, Yeah Yeah. Right. She walked up, and I was like I just walked over and held her. You know, she just didn't know where to go or what to do, and nobody that she knew was-- could have that conversation. It was so uncomfortable in, in her circle, and nobody wants to talk about addiction or drugs or fentanyl, and it's kind of a taboo topic. um, to be able to include her and bring her in the circle and have conversations with her and have-- allow her to talk about her son and, and remember her son with her, know, that, that's what it's all about for me. Like, now it's like it has become so much bigger than me, you know? And I think that's the beauty of it because I know today I understand that I'm not the only one who's suffering every day. We suffer, you know. I suffer quietly today, you know, not as quite as loudly, it's still every moment of every day. And it's a way of a little bit healing knowing that I can help you and let you know that you're not alone 'cause I-- 'cause me too, know? And that's-- think that's a beautiful part of this run It sounds beautiful. And you're not wasting your suffering. You're doing something with it. You're finding a path for it, someplace for it to go to help others. And I, I, I know exactly what you're talking about because when I first started Emily's Hope, my whole, uh, goal was to preserve her art and preserve her name for people, 'cause I felt like it was such a senseless death, and I wanted to make sense out of it, and her life meant something. And as we've grown the charity and as people have come alongside of me, it's so much more than just her. I- it's ab- about so much more than… Even though, uh, you know, our, our name is Em- has Emily in it, we have a website. Yeah. We have, but we, Absolutely have a website, you know, more than just a number. We have a support group for other parents. We, uh, really try to make it about everyone who has been impacted by this horrible crisis that many of us have found ourselves losing a loved one to you're, you're doing a wonderful job. I've been-- I was looking through your website and all the different topics of the speakers that you bring in, and I was… all so helpful in every aspect of, you know, parents losing their children or what's going on in the community. So, Oh, done I would say the same to you. I would, I would, I would shower you with praise as well. I think anybody who steps up and does something out of the worst that can happen to s- to a parent, uh, losing a child, i- is to be commended and, and that goes for you as well. And also, you made a choice. You didn't relapse. I mean, you could have relapsed. That, that kind of pain and, and grief, I'm sure, uh, that it couldn't have been easy to not relapse No, no. There were many times where I, you know, I'm like, the pain was so great. As you know, it's so great that I knew what would take the pain away, know? Mm-hmm. Not for long, but at the time it's like I know that if I have a drink that feel this way. But it doesn't-- for me, it won't end with that. You know? It ends in a real dark place, and I'll… My daughter would never understand, you know? And getting through that, getting through that season in the beginning of, you know, I have a choice to make each and every day, sometimes each and every moment, you know, of am I gonna sit with this? How am I gonna sit with this? You know? What… 'Cause it's, it takes a lot, and I've, I've seen several mothers who, who chose the other Me too. Me too You know? And I just can't see how that would honor my son in any way, you know? And, and in the process of choosing to see God's hand in everything, like, that I know that will be okay. I know that even though if I'm not okay, I'm gonna be okay. Like, I will get through it, whatever it looks like.'Cause there's… It's funny'cause there's just certain things that I know that God's hand was in, like the, the morning I got the phone call, I was, uh… My daughter had left five hours before, early, early in the morning with all her girlfriends. They were gonna go see, uh, Justin Bieber in Los Ang- in Los Angeles. And, um, when I called her, she left at 4:00 or 5:00 AM.

00 AM to come home, she was only 15 minutes away because her friend's car got four flat tires Oh, wow. so they were still, so they were That gives me the chills. That gives me the chills, like, that. worked out like that, that she wasn't five hours away and trying to get home and yeah. Yeah. and I always say the miracle really lies in, and you talked about your tribe, people, but I say the miracles really lie, uh, in the people ar- who have come alongside me, the people around me, um, the people who are doing the work with me at Emily's Hope, the people I talk to on the podcast, the people I've met nationally and locally and, uh, that's wh- where the miracles lie for me because God didn't save our children, and I don't think it works that way, you know? I, I think that when you're dealing with something really difficult if, if you are open to it, the miracles lie in those that, that are around us and that show up Yeah. That show up for us, know, even when we are not fun to be And even, yeah, and even years later, that continues to happen for me. And I think as long as I'm making the next right choice and the next right choice, I think that continues to happen' Cause what I, what I find is that I find that the longer it's been that I-- my head starts to tell me, "They're tired Yeah, sure. Nobody wants Sure it anymore. Stop talking about it." You know, and, because I have a great tribe and an outlet in my meeting, in recovery meetings, that I'm able to say, "You know, this is what my head is telling me." And so I bottle it-- I've been bottling it up, and then I explode with tears, you know? And then, and the beauty is they come up after and go,"Never stop talking about him. helping me by know- seeing that by you getting through this, I can get through anything too. Like, if you can get through this, then I can get through my feeling for the day or, or my breakup or…" I'm sure you're right that many people do want us to stop talking about our kids after a certain period of time goes by. However, I always say I will never stop talking about it until this ends, until no more kids and young people are dying. I alwa- I'm trying to work my way out of a job. I'm trying to end something. I'm… Most people are out there trying to start something, start a business, start something, right? We're trying to end something, uh, in whatever way that takes, and so we need to continue to talk about it in order for that to happen because if we go silent, crisis continues That's right. That's right. And you-- That's, that's such a good point because, um, like when I-- for the event that-- One of the things that I love about the event is that I promote to bring people in from all different communities. Like, there's some really nice neighborhoods, there's some less, you know, less affluent neighborhoods, but everybody, like all the parents and the families, I wanna bring them all together so that we can have for a safe place to have a conversation. Because too often it's, like I said, it's taboo to talk about addiction or, or drugs, and nobody wants to talk about it. So creating a safe space to say, "Hey, this is what it is." You know, um, a lot of parents I've found don't know anything about it. Like I'm passing flyers out or I talk about it, uh, trying to explain what is going on, they have no idea what fentanyl is, that they're holding the hand of their little six-year-old, know? So being able to explain, you know, fentanyl is, is what it is, know, how deadly it is, what, what is happening in the world with it. Like, 'cause if you're not affected by it, you're not really paying-- you may not be paying attention to the, you know, f- the, to the news or, or to how many kids are dying. You may not, not pay attention to those, uh, reports. um, and I go into those schools like Saratoga High School and Los Gatos High School, and the kids are desperate to be able to talk about it, and they have questions. Like these high schoolers are like, they wanna know if, uh, this was a really good question this, uh, high schooler asked me. He asked me that if, um, if he can-- will get in trouble, like if one of their friends overdoses or they're using drugs and they call an ambulance, they're afraid to call the ambulance because they'll think that they'll get in trouble. And the law, basically, they The g- they don't know about Good Samaritan laws. They aren't educated in all of these things. Yeah. Right. They're fearful. So the, the kid, they just leave their friends wherever and they die. Right being able to have these conversations about what fentanyl is, you know, how readily it is, how dangerous it is, it's, it's a huge-- I think it's, it's hugely important to be able to parents and kids to And you know? And we're, we're right, and that's why we developed our Emily's Hope, uh, K through 12 substance use prevention curriculum, because I just felt like we have to continue to educate kids and start at a young age with age-appropriate conversations and lessons, um, in kindergarten. I mean, and all the studies show we've gotta be talking to kids at a younger age. Part of that includes a parent component, um, educator training in what substance use disorder is and, and, you know, all of these things. And it's so important that this conversation be out there in every community and every school and every home so that we can save the next generation Yes, Yeah. absolutely all that you're doing. When is your race coming up? When is that? it is every July, it's the third Saturday in July, but this year it's gonna be July 18th. it's a Saturday. We, um, we-- you can go to jolly10k.com to register and check out all the information. Uh, you can watch the video so you can see what we're really about and what it looks like. Um, we have-- You can donate if you'd like or just register and show up for our event. Um, and we have raffle prizes that are donated. We have CPR classes. We g- pass out Narcan. We have goodies and, and, um, information to pass out. So I welcome anyone to just come join us Yeah. Well, it sounds like a great time and also a great way to honor Jolly. And thank you for coming on the podcast, sharing his story. I am so sorry for everything that has happened to him and to your family. Um, but I'm s- as I often say, I'm so grateful to know you Thank you. Thank you. I'm so grateful that you asked me to come on this podcast. It was wonderful meeting you If you'd like more information about the Jolly 10K and 5K Fun Run, you can find a link to the event's website in this episode's show notes. While you're there, we'd appreciate it if you'd take just a moment to rate and review Grieving Out Loud, and also share it with someone who you know will find these conversations helpful. Together, we can raise awareness about the fentanyl overdose and addiction crisis, help those facing it feel less alone, and encourage people to seek help when they need it. Thank you again for listening. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Wandenberg King and Kayli Fitz