I was a high achiever. I was in the movie business. Things came easily to me. I had some success early on at MTV when I was like 15, 16 years old. Today's guest on Grieving Out Loud found success early in life. Mark Ehrenkranz has worked in the entertainment industry in California and New York in a variety of roles. But behind that success, he was quietly struggling with addiction When I was young and I had a stomach ache or a headache, all of the o over the counters would come out on the counter. So I, uh, basically associated feelings and taking something to change how I felt. Over the years, Mark says he would find recovery for long periods of time, but then relapse. One time he says it was triggered by a medication a doctor prescribed. Other times it started with him thinking just one pill would be okay, but as he puts it, that's just not how his brain is wired I still felt a little edgy, anxious type A I was go, go, go. But I couldn't relax and sore, you know? And I was always in that sympathetic nervous system, fight, flight, or freeze. And then when I took the Valium, um, it just calmed everything down. And I, I, and as you said, I, I said, whoa, this is what everybody else must feel like. Mark says one of the keys to overcoming his substance use disorder has been learning to get comfortable with being uncomfortable, whether that's difficult emotions, tough moments, or even physical pain The cold, or you can walk a flight of stairs till it hurts. You can lift weights, you can do anything to get to that discomfort threshold In this episode of Grieving Out Loud, Mark shares his story, the difficult ups and downs during a battle with substance use disorder, and the techniques that have helped him not only overcome his addiction, but lead a more joyful life My guest today first got sober in 1985, but it wasn't a straight road for Mark  Ehrenkranz. Now he's turned his lived experience into a life's mission. Mark is a certified peer recovery specialist, a writer, and the force behind go humans. A movement built on the belief that stories connect us and that connection save lives. He sat with people in emergency rooms. ICUs and detox units at some of their lowest moments, not as a clinician, but as someone who truly gets it from the inside out. He is also the author of Radically Honest, a book that lives up to its name, raw, real, and rooted in the kind of truth that only comes from people who've walked through the darkness themselves. Mark believes that what physicians and healthcare providers often miss isn't medical knowledge. It's the power of peer recovery. He's on a mission to change that one human connection at a time. I think you're gonna love this conversation. Mark, welcome to Grieving Out Loud. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm really excited. Oh, of course. And I was doing a little research listening to you speak on other podcasts about your story I thought was so interesting that in 1985, at the age of 25, you. Found recovery. Tell me what happened. Tell me what you were using and how you were able to stop using at that age. Yeah, so I tell folks that, you know, when I was young and I had a stomach ache or a headache, all of the o over the counters would come out on the counter. So I, uh, basically associated feelings and taking something to change how I felt. So, flash forward, my father was a Valium addict and, um, I would steal Valium from him and I had a PDR physician's desk reference at home. So I would research. What all the medicines were, and I would experiment with them. And, um, I too became a benzo addict. And that was my drug of choice. Uh, as I, I talked to, uh, you know, peers of mine, uh, it, I had arrived. It, it, it solved my problem of feeling, uh, a little awkward, little socially anxious. Uh, it allowed me. I was energized by the benzos, whereas people take Ativan, Xanax, Valium, and they go to sleep. This it, it calmed all the static for me and basically I could soar and I felt smooth and in control and that's what it did for me. Uh, so that continued for many years and I became. A bit of a garbage head. I would smoke weed, take quaaludes and cocaine, mushrooms. I drank a little, but that really wasn't my drug. And then I had a really great opportunity to move to Los Angeles and I worked in the movie business for, uh, five, six years out there. And, uh, I was working so hard. It was too inconvenient for. For me to go to Brentwood to uh, uh, get drugs for my drug dealer. So I thought it was a good idea to have 'em move in with me and, uh, that was a f of complete. I would have these Belushi weekends and basically I lost my, uh, really good job on a great show and I ended up coming back east and um, and then I got sick and tired of being sick and tired, and I decided, you know, I needed a change. All this by the age of 25, and you started so young, and I think that's important to note because while your brain is still developing, we know that addiction is much more likely to happen. And I know I've heard that benzos or Xanax or whatever you were using in that class of drug, that it's one of the hardest to get off of. But I also find it interesting. It had the opposite effect on you that it has on other people, because that certainly was the case for my daughter. In fact, she started with weed and Xanax and I know just when she was young, cough medicines would have the opposite effect on her that they're supposed to have. If they're supposed to knock you out to put you to sleep, it would hype her Energizer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. different. They're with all sorts of things and, you know, we can, um, help folks get off of opioids and then later on they could enjoy a little alcohol or, or a little weed. There are some people out there that can do that. I can't, I have no on off switch. I've done all the research, you know. So how, so you're at, you're at 25 when this happens, when you're using benzos, and so how hard was it for you to withdraw from them? Ah, well, I went to detox at a hospital. They gave me, uh, Librium, so that seemed to help. Then after seven days of detox, I went to a rehab in northern Florida, uh, Bushnell, Florida at those times, uh, or that time it was called Koala Center'cause Koalas don't drink. And this was part of the Deer Run. It was the mid eighties and, and it was ethical and it was one of the best experiences of my life there. They put me on Cax, which is an older medication. It's a benzo of sorts, and that was a taper down. So I titrated, you know, off of the cax and then I was, I was fine. I had no withdrawal. And although it's squirrelly and it kind of comes around and it takes some time about a year for my brain to adjust. But um, yeah, that was the onset of practicing recovery. And you did really well for a long time. Uh, super well, yeah, I was very motivated. Um, I was a high achiever. I was in the movie business. Things came easily to me. I had some success early on at MTV when I was like 15, 16 years old. I, I made this music video and, um. And I did that throughout my career. So I was very motivated and I wanted that career back. And, um, I, I had told myself I had done enough partying for a lifetime and I had always been an athlete, a collegiate athlete, and otherwise, so I was very good at discipline and, and one of the keys I know now is becoming more comfortable with discomfort., So let's talk about, um, you find this substance.'cause there is not, there's no one that I have talked to who has not told me at the first time they smoked weed or took a Xanax or whatever their drug of choice is, that they found their answer, that they had this un this very uncomfortable feeling inside of them. Like the world wasn't quite right for them. You had that feeling too. I have not spoken to anybody who suffered from substance use disorder that hasn't told me that. Yeah. And, and me either, everyone I speak to, that's one of the motivat uh, pieces of motivational interviewing. What made you start, what did it do for you? Did it, what, which problems did it solve? And some, some of 'em haven't really reflected, but for me, yeah, I, I, I was, I, I had a big ego. It took years to sort of temper that. But, uh, in my first book, the Great American Suburban Experiment, I talk about my parents sending me to be somebody training, and it was the American Dream and keeping up with the Joneses and all that kind of stuff. And so I, I had all this expectation and I, and things came easily to me, but. I still felt a little edgy, anxious type A I was go, go, go. But I couldn't relax and sore, you know? And I was always in that sympathetic nervous system, fight, flight, or freeze. And then when I took the Valium, um, it just calmed everything down. And I, I, and as you said, I, I said, whoa, this is what everybody else must feel like. Normal to articulate and be in control and relaxed, and, and I had found my answer. I why if I take a little bit of this for a lifetime, I'll be good. Right, and things got outta control. You found, miraculously found recovery. They didn't even have the same tools like you said, that we have today in the late eighties or mid to late eighties. were in recovery for a long time, then there was a setback. Tell me what happened. I. Yeah, so I was practicing, uh, strong recovery, going to meetings to, uh, self care, uh, sponsor a lot of speaking engagements. Um. And, uh, I'm an athlete, so I was training, I you would do these, uh, amateur sprint triathlons and I was training running and, um, and I, and I, uh, I guess my, my cervical spine had reached critical mass and I herniated a few discs and it was very painful. Uh, you know, I saw a doctor and, and I, I always tell everybody, and it's on my chart, you know, I'm in recovery, you can't give me anything. No messing around.'cause doctors at that time didn't fully understand. Some still don't. Um, but they said No. However, you can take this medication, it's called Tramadol and it's a non-opioid and you'll be fine. So I didn't trust them and I asked my, uh, addiction psychiatrist. Asked a lot of people and they said, yeah, you should be fine. Uh, you have time. And soon as I took it, I got high. And now this was a license to use because. I was in pain. I had gotten a prescription, I was taking it as prescribed. Um, I don't know if it took care of the pain. I didn't care. It gave me a bump. It brightened my eyes, made me social, you know, those, you know, natural opioid system receptors in the back of the brain. They had been. Calmed for 20 plus years and then boom, they were like a sponge. Woke them up and the monster was out of the box. About what year would this have been? Uh, so, uh, 95, 2005, about 2007, I had two grown children. Wife, you know, career. Yeah. And we're, we're talking about when the opioid crisis was really with prescription pills was really in its full swing, I think 2007. I mean, it wasn't checked at that point. Yeah, so the Tramadol was the gateway. Uh, as we know, our emotional operating system, uh, gets arrested, uh, when we use. So it was like I was a 16-year-old again, taking excursions in New York City. Um, see the, the tramadol worked until it stopped working and, uh, had I built a tolerance, so I, I sought out. Other things like conning, uh, immediate care, psychiatrist, immediate care, you know, with cash. And they gave me benzos and my, that was my drug of choice, so, whoa. And then I was, uh, looking in people's medicine cabinets for their Vicodin and Percodan and, and everything else came back. And, uh, that was three years of slipping and sliding the benzos. They make one depressed. So I was crying. And our girls and we're saying Dad's crying again. Are you ready to protect the next generation from the dangers of substance use? Emily's Hope has created a comprehensive K through 12 substance use prevention curriculum designed to educate, empower, and equip students with the tools they need to make healthy choices. Our age appropriate lessons start in kindergarten and build through high school using science, real stories, and interactive learning to help kids understand their bodies, brains, and risk of drug use. We're already reaching thousands of students across multiple states, and we're just getting started. Visit emilyshopeedu.org to learn more and share our curriculum with your school administrators and counselors. At Emily's Hope, we believe prevention begins with education. Let's work together to keep our kids safe. If you or someone you love is struggling with substance use disorder, I wanna take a moment to talk to you. Stories like Mark's and so many others show that change is possible. You don't have to wait to reach out. Your life matters. You can find a list of helpful resources on our website, emilyshope.charity. We've posted a link in our show notes. Thankfully for Mark and his family, he found his way back to recovery in 2010 at a time when there were fewer treatment options and medications available. He says the journey wasn't easy, but it was definitely worth it I would take two months off and then. Return of symptoms, relapse, some call it, take a couple. So I was slipping and sliding, going to meetings and, and I really didn't do anything. I just went back to meetings, uh, you know, religiously. And there was no medically assisted treatment. There was real, really no need for any, I wasn't in any kind of withdrawal. I mean, you know, anxiety comes back, but that's part of the deal, you know. Did your career and your family survive that? It was rough. Uh, yeah. Uh, lots of lying, lots of conning, manipulating midlife crisis. Um, let's talk about that for a minute. Because every family member and I speak from the perspective of a family member, and I hold grief groups. I'm a certified grief educator now, and we all talk about what we went through with our loved one, whether they're still living or they're not with us anymore. So much damage to the family members. And so it's the only disease. And, and when I hear you talking, I love hearing you talk about the amygdala.'cause we do a lot of education around the brain, and this is the disease of the brain, but it's the only disease that it, well, maybe it's not the only disease because sometimes people who are diabetic or have obesity lie about their Sure. Yeah. their eating habits and things like that. Right. Yeah. it's shameful. It's shameful. Right. So can you talk about. The, the lies and the manipulation that almost everybody who loves somebody with substance use disorder has experienced. For sure, and now we know, uh, you know, the fight, flight, or freeze is full blown, the sympathetic nervous system. So the fight is often leave me alone. Let me do whatever I want. I'm not hurting anybody. I wanna live the way I wanna live. Well, that's not true. You are hurting everybody. Yeah. you've conditioned them how to respond to you, and some of 'em ha have had it. Uh, others, they can't deal with you. Some are enabling and so hence yeah, the malady is riddled with conning manipulation. Uh, secrets we're only as sick as our secrets, and so that's to hide. Uh, bottles, uh, drugs, behavior, actions, and you know, those who, who have had substance use disorder, alcohol, alcohol use disorder, some of them are the best salesman in the world because they almost believe their lies, you know? And it's, uh, yeah, it's kind of like malignant narcissism. However, um. Yeah. That, that's rampant. So, uh, and, and they would believe me and, uh, that's just, and I tell folks I know that. And when they tell me how much they've been using, I say, are you being honest with me? Yes. Well, I often lied and embellished or didn't tell the whole truth, so I know how that goes. So might I double what you're saying? And we laugh. We get closer to the truth. Um, but, but that protection that's still there after using a fight, flight or freeze, leave me alone. Protected flight, escape, leave. I'm not into this, get outta here or freeze, which is the isolation that people often experience, you know, just wanting to use in their bedroom. And that's it, you know. Yeah. It is such a sad byproduct of all of this, I feel like, because it damages relationships so deeply and it's so hard for those around that person, and I just think it's also, it takes, I mean, the trauma involved with all of that, it's just difficult for so many of us. Absolutely. Yeah. Uh, as I said, I've conditioned myself when I was active using, and I've conditioned others. Uh, we've all, all become sick. Um, Right. really no truth. Uh, there's no honesty until. You know, we get radically honest with one another and, um, there's so much resentment and, you know, all of this subtext and, and innuendo and all, all of this stuff is sarcasm. There's a lot of truth in that sarcasm. And it's, it's, it's very, uh, disruptive and dysfunctional. Unhealthy. Yeah. And hard to rebuild relationships after that. And some sums can never be rebuilt. Right. But uh, returned to symptoms. I like how we sort of relapse, you say return to symptoms. And that happened for you a third time, after yes, absolutely. So, how many years later? oh, I'm not so great with years and time, but. okay. I don't know, maybe eight, nine years later, I was making this documentary called Addiction Warriors. And that was basically, uh, interviewing, uh, the best in the country, the Carneys at for sex edition at the Meadows and the Gambling Institute at UCLA and Anna Lemke and all of these great people, brain surgeons who, you know, had cures. Um, and I met a doctor at UCLA. He had written this book called The Abstinent Myth, and, uh. PhD, very credible source. And he had a great new form of recovery at the time, which was more harm reduction for young folks. And, um, he said to me, you know, mark, I, I was a cocaine addict and now I enjoy a little alcohol or weed every once in a while. Well, that's all I had to hear from a credible source and. The bug was in my mind and I was in San Francisco. I went to a dispensary and I asked for C, b, D only. I wanted a, a disposable vape pen, CBD only. Okay. It gave me the sealed package. I went back to the hotel, took a hit, and again, that cannabinoid, natural cannabinoid system was dormant for so long. There were traces of THC in it and it. Woke up the monster. I got so high. It was so much fun. It felt good. I ate a lot, you know, all of the things that I remembered, like when I was a teenager and I started smoking weed. Now that went on for five years. So I returned. And what I've learned is that the, the, the cannabinoid receptors, uh, CB one, CB two, um. They clog the same channel. For SSRIs and ndr. I, so that's Wellbutrin, Celexa, you know, all of the serotonin reuptake inhibitors and norepinephrine, which I was on Wellbutrin, which is norepinephrine and Cymbalta for pain, cervical pain and depression. They, they were rendered useless. They could, it was like a block tunnel and they were sitting in traffic, so they stopped working. I was crying every morning, couldn't get out of bed. I had to smoke some weed, and it's so strong now to stop crying. And it continued all day, every day for five years. And I spent so much money, which nobody knew about at the dispensary. Thousands. And it was like my thing and. You know, my wife and I made a pact that would only do it like certain nights. Well, that went out the window'cause I have no on off switch. So there was no moderation. Management. My brain is programmed for, you know, beca becoming easily reliant and dependent on substance. So, uh, yeah, it got to the point where. I, I, I, I was so bad that my wife ended up calling the police. I ended up in an ambulance and they took me to the hospital where I work now in the behavioral unit for si suicidal ideation in that unit where I conduct groups. Wow. So you've come full circle, but Yeah. so to, to, to break down your story a little bit. What's so interesting to me is how the. General prevalent attitude. And I have done enough podcast episodes about cannabis, especially on the developing brain and some of the cannabis use disorder, and also the, um, the thing that goes along with it, with throwing up on a regular basis. Hyperemesis. you. I, I wasn't, I wasn't the, the name wasn't on the tip of my tongue. I work at a hospital. yes, yes. And just the addictive quality of, of, of cannabis and, that. Many people think, well, that's okay. It's okay to do that. That's, that's an, that's, that's fine. That's good for you. I mean, that sort of the prevalent, but there are, for somebody who is wired for substance use disorder as, as your brain certainly is and probably always will be. Uh, it's not a, it's not a great thing. You're not somebody who can just smoke weed on a Friday night and then not do it again for two or three weeks or whatever the case might be. Yeah, I've proven it to myself. However, that experience has made me a better peer recovery specialist, having gotten clean and sober, relapsed return of symptoms, uh, cannabis disorder, uh, learning all about that, and I've learned tons more. And um, and also I had cancer. So when I got the job at the hospital for peer recovery, having worked in the field, I wanted to get some life insurance and the blood test came back, fouled up. They found that I had multiple myeloma, which is very, very treatable. And I looked at it as another awakening 'cause I had. You know, built skills and, and was conditioned to look at life positively and make that shift and that it, because I, I, I do vagal toning, uh, into the parasympathetic nervous system, and I'm now certified for that. I had been practicing that for a long time for pain, and I just said, wow, it's another opportunity to become comfortable. With discomfort. And I looked at it as that opportunity and I got, and I wrote my first book because it was two weeks of chemo and stem cell and then followed by three months of isolation. I did it again out of a tandem, uh, treatment. And I, that's where I wrote radically honest 10 peer recovery stories. So I, again, I, you know, when I see someone, I've had a lot of experience that I can honestly connect to them with. So much experience. What do you think has been the most effective tool for you that you can share with. other people when it comes to Staying in recovery. Yeah, I, I, I, I think the way we explain it, 2026, there is no cure. It's like diabetes, it's like asthma, uh, peanut allergy cancer, what have you. There is no cure, but it's very treat. However it reco, it requires some sort of practice so that the weeds don't grow back. And the way I explain it is, and we were talking before about that, you know, humans are coded for survival. We're not coded for love and compassion. So that lower brain that evolved millions of years ago before the cerebral. A cortex, um, that begins to run the show. The comfort seeking the reward, it just gets activated and that is full blown. And that executive decision, the decision making, the clear thinking, all of that higher, uh, thinking basically shuts off. It gets fuzzy. It's not running. It's not driving the bus anymore. Mark says he's used a variety of tools to stay in recovery, from support groups to just focusing on the moment and practicing recovery day by day instead of feeling overwhelmed by focusing too much on the future I am a big student, Ecker Tolle, he says, one can never become successful, one can never become successful, only be successful in the moment. So I say. The only success is to be able to live another day to practice recovery for that day. And that's it. Edgar talks about living in the now. Living in the now. And I've read Edgar, and That is something I think that, uh. Everybody can take advantage of not just somebody suffering from substance use disorder, but living in the now, our, our problems tend to overwhelm us. Uh, mental health is such a big issue right now that if we all lived in the now and I, and I'm not gonna claim to be an expert at practicing that, although I do think about it. um, especially when I'm going through crisis, uh, can so much healthier. Right. Absolutely. And that's why I, uh, really adore vagal toning. I became certified in it. I thought it was. Explain what that is for our listeners who don't Okay, so the vagus nerve, it starts behind the ears, it goes to the throat, and then it goes throughout our entire body and it controls our entire central nervous system. Why haven't we heard about this before? Right, the complete autonomic and somatic nervous system and people are practicing somatic therapy. That's the bones, the muscles, the tissue, the, um, the other is, is your organs. Um, so it controls everything. And when one or most humans are not in the, now, we're thinking about later. And what we have to do. Basically it's our story, our narrative, our movie, which is the same story over and over again, which is kind of like a broken record and we want to quiet it down and thinking about all the things we have to do. Like you said, Eckerd practices. Now I have a watch. It says now it's now a clock. It's now time. How does one do that? Okay, so in order to tone the vagus nerve and get out of that. That coding for survival, which is fight, flight or freeze, the sympathetic nervous system. We want to begin to engage the parasympathetic nervous system. This is restoration. Um, relaxation and digestion, restoration, relaxation and digestion. It's pretty important. So. What we can do to be able to regulate and rewire regulate downregulate upregulate. So when I was using. My, my feelings, they were kind of here, they were quelled, right? And then I stopped using and they were still there. They often got worse'cause I had nothing to self-medicate with. So I needed to learn other things to quiet myself. Well, this practice, and there's three elements that I like, there are many different ways, is I, I ask patients to. Hey, take your cell phone out, indulge me. Set your alarm for noon every day, and perhaps people who are listening to this now, take it out, set it for noon every day. Have a repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, check, check, check. And then when it goes off, you may be engaged, uh, talking to somebody on the phone, doing something more important. Hit snooze. Then I ask them to belly breathe, which when one usually takes a deep breath doctor's office, it's, and we're shallow breathers. We're doing this, we're driving, we're thinking. So it's all shallow. We're the shoulders are up, we get a headache. We wonder why we're tense at the end of the day, this is why, and we're not oxygenating. So if we diaphragmatic breathe or belly breathe, where you breathe in the belly goes up. You breathe out the belly goes in, it takes some practice, actually make it a little sore 'cause one is not used to, uh, breathing that way. And then I say, actually, uh, breathe into your pelvis and your lower gi so that expands and contracts. And then, and go into your groin.'cause we wanna drop everything, all the thoughts, the shallow breath, low, low, low, low, low. And just breathe for one minute. Just one minute. This will begin to condition you to breathe, start toning the vagus nerve, and then you'll like it so much that you'll do it online. At the supermarket. You'll do it in traffic. You'll do it on the phone for with customer service, all of these dysregulating times where you may feel anxious. You do it and you get ahead of it. So if you're proactive, you're less apt to get dysregulated and di Dysregulating down is calming down. Up is like showing up. One needs to show up to do things and so that's being able to have that wherewithal to do that in a calm state. But with the energy, the, the second thing is because it's here and it's so close to the throat, when people use the hum chant or sing, they felt good. It stopped their thoughts. There was science to it, humming or, um, getting that throat vibrating, tones, the vagus nerve. This is just like pushups for the vagus nerve and vagal toning. So you become more in shape and it can do its job easier. And the third is, as we've said, intentionally, uh, uh. Inflicting a little discomfort on yourself to become more comfortable. Often people will do cold in the shower, uh, 10 seconds, 15 seconds. You may hate doing it, especially back east here. It's cold in the winter and you're digging that nice warm shower in the morning, and there's no way I want to turn that cold. I'm so afraid I'm dreading it. Good. Even better. The victory is even further from zero to one, you know, the furthest distance and. You just put it on for 10, 15 seconds cold, put it on your head, put it on your neck, turn it off, and, and then you may find that you're doing it 15, 20 seconds. Um, so diaphragmatic breathing, humming, chanting, singing, or after I brush my teeth in the morning, I gargle aggressively. Ah, ah, and they do this in yoga. It's called the Lion Roar. And, um, but I'm like, my wife says it's, you know, it's the, uh, it's the gargle alarm. And I ah, ah, for one minute. Also tones the vagus nerve. And then I do, you know, the cold, or you can walk a flight of stairs till it hurts. You can lift weights, you can do anything to get to that discomfort threshold and be there for a little bit. So you, you tone it, you tone your vagus nerve and you become less fearful of it. So when you're in the cold, you're like, huh, not so bad. I'm not so as afraid in the cold morning, I'll just do it. Yeah, it's uh, I've heard a lot about mindfulness in terms of treating substance use disorder, and these are forms of mindfulness. Without calling it meditation, because I think when we start talking about meditation, people have that monkey mind, right? You cannot call, get rid of those thoughts. And not that you have to, you, I mean, meditation tells you you don't have to, but it's just you're act actively practicing something so you're not thinking about what you're not supposed to be thinking about. Right. For sure. Yeah, Ecker teaches and, you know, he teaches a form of Buddhism. He teaches all spiritual disciplines and practices. And he explained to me Buddha means awake in, um, uh, you know, in the, in Sanskrit, the native language. And he taught suffering in the end of suffering. But the suffering was good to end the suffering. Um, and that's how I looked at cancer. So he says, when one meditates, there should be no goal. Just meditate to meditate. It's not to get better at it. It's not to reduce all the thoughts. Yeah. to do with it. Just Our culture is, meditate, everything you do, our culture, everything you do is competitive or you have to be self-improving. I'm getting really good at. It Yeah. Yeah. have to be. So you breathe in the belly or What I do is I do the body scan, so my feet are on the floor. I feel the energy in my toes, in my feet. Cals all the way up. I enlighten it with my eyes closed. I enlighten, I bring aliveness, Eckerd says to the fingers and all, so, and, and the, the expression is, come to your senses. How many times when somebody's dysregulating say, come to your senses, man. And, and often we'll use the, uh, attention to those senses to, you know, come down. But I'm saying it light 'em up. That, and that's a healthy practice to bring blood and mindfulness to all parts. And then I just breathe in the belly. Now thoughts come and they go. However, I'm a channel for those thoughts I've learned. That's just a movie, a script I'm telling myself. And it may take a while for me to come down. And often I'm in my feet for a little too long trying to concentrate on my feet. And then once I kind of get to it, then I go, uh, as you said. The thoughts will come and go. We're human, we're we're thinkers that we're coded for that. However, we're coded for survival. So a lot of those thoughts. Our fear and fear is not always a fact. Right? And it's just a narrative. It's just our construct of our myopic view of ourselves. People may not see me anyway that I, I see myself. We only can see reflections of our ourself if you really wanna know the physics of it. Yeah. So I've learned that, you know. The system whi, which it works, and I stick to one system. I'm not a searcher. I don't, I mean, I know them, but I don't have to jump, uh, to all of these different people, Ram das, and, you know, all these different people who are wonderful. I stick, I stick to Eckert and I do my vagal toning. I practice my recovery. I give back. I keep what I have by giving it away. It seems to work really well for me and for pain, which I call discomfort. Again, changing the lexicon. You know, often if somebody's manipulating, we say they're not making good use of their skills. So it it, it's a change in the lexicon to change the way we're discussing it and what you say to yourself. Right. What we say to ourself is a big part of it. Have you had success when you're teaching this to other people, maybe they're new in trying to, you know, stay in recovery. Have you found success when you're as a peer support passing this along to others? Yes, well, I first explained the system, which is basically just disconnection of brain needs time. Become more comfortable with discomfort. That's it. I don't fire hose him. Keep it simple. And I say, and one way to have it reconnect or two ways is abstinence. Dr. Casey Grover is a mentor of mine. He has this podcast called Addiction Medicine Made Easy, which I'll be on the end of May. Um, you know, he, he teaches a three-legged stool approach. The first is. Medically assisted treatment for alcohol or substance to help with cravings, um, or. Withdrawal. The second is some sort of one-on-one. Now that can be with a peer recovery specialist, that can be a licensed counselor, whatever it is. And the third is community that we're coded to have a tribe, and that oxytocin is so critical along with dopamine, serotonin, and all these other. Things were seeking to feel good. The oxytocin, that's the warm and fuzzy you feel when someone gives you a genuine hug and you're with people and you realize we're all the same. We share the same malady. It's powerful. And, and some say one, one walks into a meeting smarter, whatever, that, you know, there's this surge of oxytocin or dopamine spike, whatever it is. Um, so I tell them just. Set your alarm for noon and start with the breathing for one minute a day. You can text me when you've done it or at the end of the week, so I'll help you stay accountable. Um, you can keep a little chart if you want, if you miss a couple of days. Not so bad. A little something is better than all of nothing. And then I explain, you know, the levels of care and me medically assisted treatment. Inpatient outpatient, pure recovery and community. And I say, that's the menu. What do you wanna do? And then they choose.'cause it has to come from them. And I can't be. You know, um, the villain in their story. And, uh, and I say even research it, get on your phone, go to Google Research, all these things so you know what it is, and then you make the decision to do it. So it comes from you and you feel comfortable with it. So these are all techniques to, you know, that we've learned. 2026, God willing, they'll, they'll escalate and more will be revealed. But that's kind of like what we're dealing with these days. Have you lost a loved one to overdose or fentanyl poisoning? I'd like to invite you to share their story on our new Emily's Hope Memorial website called More Than Just a Number. They were our children, siblings, cousins, husbands, wives, aunts, uncles, and friends, so much more than just a number. You can submit a memorial today on morethanjustanumber.org. And you brought up something that I've heard from since the beginning when I started doing this work is that the antidote for addiction is connection. The connection is so very important and it's, and people lose connection in the midst of their illness. that's what it does. hundred percent. so getting that back, and that's why meetings work, right? That's why in some cases, faith and religion works because it's a connection, a spiritual connection, whatever works, and no two addictions are exactly the same. No, I st I say be protected, stay connected. And I'm, I'm, I'm Jewish, but I'll, my interpretation, actually, it's from Eckert. Everything I know is from Eckert. I'm just the parrot. And, um, so the cross, um, he says. One needs to be straight up with higher power. The infinite beyond our comprehension, whatever that is, honest and straight up before on the vertical plane, before one can have positive relationships with the material world and other people on the horizontal plane. So for me that's a, that's positive imagery of the cross. And people say, oh, you should have taught catechism or something like that. You know? And so is there anything else with, uh, recovery? Do You think people are getting wrong or do you think we could do, what could we do better? And I think there's so much we could do better, um, in this country, and I think we have to continue to pay attention to it. I often worry because we see overdose deaths going down still at unacceptable levels of 72,000 a year. somehow there's a feeling of problem solved. And I, I, when I talk about three legs of a stool, like you talked about, you know, recovery, three legs of a stool. But when I talk about three legs of a stool for this problem, I talk about. Recovery, you're getting into treatment and recovery is one leg. Law enforcement and keeping some of these illicit very dangerous substances out of the hands of the American public is another stool. And then prevention. and we, if we lose any one leg of that stool, the whole stool comes toppling over. And I worry that there's not enough, I don't know? effort going in to keeping all three legs of that stool up. A hundred percent and, and, and I think everything is education and awareness. So there's so much stigma. There's so much old thinking. Yeah. folks are not skilled or aware. Of what this malady is. And doctors, uh, when patients come into the er, they immediately feel they're going to be stigmatized and judged and oftentimes they are. The doctors look at it as, how dare you? I could use this bed for somebody who wants to live, not you. You're an addict. And all of this, like, it's horrible. So I think the education and the awareness is key and that's my mission is to, um, elucidate that whole. Uh, that, that thought process to doctors and non recovery professionals, social workers, PhDs, others, the, the power of peer recovery were resource brokers, we're sort of the Google of recovery. And I'd like to see CPRS and we've been talking about just go to A-C-P-R-S 2.0, so a little more advanced learning ev everyone has to take CEUs, you know, educational units, but this would be like a little extra. Um, and, and. Teach, teach people what this is, and, and, and then I refer doctors to their peer recovery centers in every state. There's a list of them on ca, uh, cars, um, which is a national site and has a listing of all. It's also on my site, go Humans. In the recovery resources, there's a list of all these terms, demystifying terms, glossary and resources, us and state, and also a comprehensive list of every peer recovery center in every state in America. So I think. There needs to be education and it's getting better. As you said, the distribution of Narcan is helping, alcohol is less, but people are using gummies and CBDI don't, I don't think that'll kill you as quickly as alcohol, so maybe we're. Moving in the right direction. I mean, the National Institute of Health just got some funding and I happen to know the director working on microdosing for CY and other things. So we're bringing education awareness to that.'cause people feel they can go and do ayahuasca and it will cure them. And so there's a lot of myths and you know. Um, disinformation out there. And I think documentaries help, books help. Um, all of those things help to reduce the stigma, understand that it's in the DSM five. It's a diagnostic tool to say, alcohol use, use disorder, substance use. That's the coding they use to get insurance. So it's, it's, it's bonafide. And to get away from this. Alcoholic it. It has too much baggage attached to it. Yeah. Lexicon. Yeah. And we, and, and we, we as a society, and I've said this time and time again on this podcast, treat diseases of the brain or the mind different than diseases of the body. And we shouldn't, because, know, they're all diseases and, and we can't control. People can't control diseases of the mind. Just mental health issues and, and substance use disorder issues. Just like they can't control diabetes or heart disease or some other cancer or some other, you know, disease of the body. For sure, and I quote Dr. Steven Deisi out of Minnesota. He's wonderful. He is, he's my guru. He knows everything and he is really passionate about getting on the street and helping folks. Um, he describes it as we're kind of in the way. Cancer was 10, 15, 20 years ago. It was the big C. No one could say it. Uh, it was a death sentence. All you got was chemotherapy and radiation, and that was it. So now we've evolved to many different cancers and many different treatments and medications. No longer death sentence. People say the word and it, it, it's, it's more specific. I think the common cold eventually will be broken down to what, what are those things on the spectrum? Yeah. Um, just like. You know, autism and other things, you know, uh, mental maladies will, things will be revealed as they are throughout the course of time. It's 2026. We have what we have, and some people unfortunately die before their time. That's. Horrible, unfathomable for me. Um, but we're getting better. I mean, even though we have four or five medications to treat, you know, Antabuse, Camal, naltrexone, uh, uh, Suboxone, you know, buprenorphine and I might be forgetting one, but that's it. So now we're beginning to use Topamax and other things for. Amphetamines, but, but Dr. Dei says that it's starting to open up and it will take time.'cause it's all out there. It just needs to be revealed. It's hidden. Yeah. Well, and then I, before we close out here, I want to direct people to your website where they can find a lot of resources. Can they find access to your books on your website as well? Yeah, both, uh, the Great American Suburban Experiment, which is my story about being somebody and has everything. Um. And that my experience and, and Andrad and it is radically honest, and my family was like, dad, why do you wanna put this out there? I said, I think people will identify and, and it will help them. Every, every family has baggage you think? Yeah, so, and the second one is radically honest, 10 peer recovery stories. And unlike the big book of AA, where it was written in 19 39, 19 40, where there were testimony of different people, accountants of people of color, all types, which was great because there were only three meetings, Cleveland, Akron, and New York, and other people needed to hear from other folks and they read it and they were like, that's me. I'm not alone. So it was critical. These are more modern. I've been given permission, actually ask to tell their story with the modern menu of. Of, uh, drugs and alcohol and behaviors and treatment. So I hope, I hope that within those 10 stories someone might identify that hopefully it'll help families better understand what this is. And there's recovery and resources, a little history of peer recovery and a little history of, uh, the recovery industry. Um, you know, in and of itself, back, back to 17th century. And before we close out this episode, anything you wanna leave our listeners with today? The key to me is, and all this encompasses, try to learn how to become more comfortable with discomfort, uh, and. Well, we can all take that advice even if we aren't suffering from substance use disorder, right? We, we look at our phones when we're uncomfortable, bored. We're bored, right? So we're, we look at our phones, that's A feeling of being uncomfortable. We do all kinds of things to avoid feeling uncomfortable. A hundred percent. However, set your alarm for noon and breathe in your belly. Just one thing, breathe in your belly. That will help you tremendously. And research vagal toning. I actually on my. Homepage of Go humans. I have my methods and techniques. It's all, a link. yeah, every, everything we said is all there. And, uh, my contact information and all that kind of stuff, but, but research it for yourself so you know what it is. Don't take it from me'cause I'm in recovery. I tend to embellish and exaggerate. Well, I, it sounds like you've come a long way in your recovery, and Thank you. for the work you're doing to help others too. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. You can find more information about Mark's books and his work by heading to our show notes on this podcast. And while you're there, could you please take just a moment to rate and review this episode? Share it with someone who you know will find it helpful. Together, we can raise awareness about our nation's addiction crisis, reduce the stigma surrounding the disease, and hopefully encourage more people to get the help they so desperately need. Thank you for taking time to learn more about this important topic. You can find hundreds of other Grieving Out Loud episodes anytime on our website, emilyshope.charity. We also release a new episode every week. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Wandenberg King and Kayli Fitz