didn't even know how to live. I didn't know if I wanted to live. You've probably heard there's no greater pain than losing a child. Today's guest on grieving out loud, Kim Hinchey knows that devastation after helping her child recover from substance use disorder, she lost him to a sudden overdose. I got downstairs and I could his cat meowing behind the closed door. And the sound of that meow was really different than anything I'd ever heard before. And I, I pounded on his door, I was calling him, I still was expecting him to answer, you know, sick saying. Yeah. And he didn't. And so then I opened up his bedroom door on one side and, and I found him. Just a few months after finding her 27-year-old son, Adrian dead, she returned home to another, just devastating loss. Her husband also dead on their bedroom floor. He was the only one who loved Adrian with that same desperate love. love, That a parent can. That a parent can. Yeah. And so, um, when he died, as I said, I was really angry for a long time. I was angry at him. I felt abandoned. Um, I felt like he had left me here to do this life alone, Overwhelmed by the sudden loss of both her son and her husband. Within just a few months, Kim says she didn't feel like living anymore every day, every hour, every second was just too painful. My younger son came to me and his name's Gabe, and he said, mom, is, can you do something for me? And I said, yes, yes, anything. And he said. Stay alive, Since that moment, Kim has focused on understanding grief and how to navigate through the pain. Now, she not only lives a life full of meaning and purpose, but she also helps others who've lost a loved one. In this episode of Grieving Out Loud, Kim bravely shares her difficult story, the lessons loss has taught her about life, and how she's found a way to keep moving forward. What I realized is that they're still with me. I still have a relationship with Hmm. Uh, they influence every single thing that I do. Every I say, every step I take into the world, they are with me and they continue to influence me. And once I realized that, once I was able to realize that the relationship doesn't end with death. Um, I truly believe that love is the only thing we take with us when we go. Grief rarely comes alone. And for today's guest, that truth became her lived reality in one of the most devastating ways imaginable. Kym Hinchey lost her son Adrian, to an accidental overdose during the pandemic. Three months later, she lost her husband, John. Two profound losses back to back in a world that was already turned upside down. What she did with her grief was what brought her to this work. Kym is a certified grief educator and a grief coach. The founder of Adrian Grief Support and the author of then and Now, the Evolution of Grief. Her mission is one. I think everyone in this community will recognize immediately normalizing grief in a society that doesn't know how to hold it. She speaks honestly about what loss really looks like. The uncomfortable parts, the scary parts, the parts you think you just can't say out loud, and she reminds Grievers they are not broken. You're gonna feel very seen in this conversation. Kym, welcome to Grieving Out Loud. Hi Angela. Thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate We. I'm so happy to have you here and I think there are so many parallels between us. Um, we've both experienced loss. You experienced two incredibly unbelievable losses back to back. I'm grateful that I haven't gone through something quite like that, but I think what we've done with our grief is very similar, and I just, I'm so excited to learn from you and to have our listeners and the people that watch the podcast learn from you as well. Great. I'm excited too. Let's go. Yeah, so let's start off just by talking, diving into your story. Let's talk about Adrian first. Your son who was 27 when he died. Yeah, he was 27 when he died. And um, Adrian was, he was a deeply sensitive child. Um, he had so many questions, even when he was really young. Uh, and just kind of viewed the world through this lens of, um, questioning and wondering. And were a lot of questions that I couldn't answer for him. And I think as he grew older and found substances, it kind of turned down the volume on some of those unanswerable questions. he, um. Yes, he was, uh, he had substance use disorder, um, which began when he was 15 years old after he was given pain medication by the doctor for Lyme disease. Kym, that story I've heard time and time again on this podcast from parents whose children were introduced to opioids while their brain was still developing in a medical situation. Yeah. And I remember at the time asking the doctor. This isn't going to make him addicted, is it? Because we were just starting to become aware that this was an issue. Pain medication and people getting addicted to it. I think, uh, rush Limbaugh had come out publicly during that time Oh. the doctor said, oh, no, no, no, no, no. We wouldn't give him enough to get him addicted. And that doesn't happen to kids anyway. Oh wow. What people didn't know that and what they believed. We now know that the drug companies, and Purdue Pharma in particular was being very deceptive about the addictive properties of these drugs and had convinced medical professionals. You just wonder the the what ifs. It's hard not to think about the what if, what ifs. Right, What if Adrian hadn't been prescribed that? yeah. And so his battle with substance use disorder, did it start kind of following the, these prescriptions and, and what happened? Yes. Within, um, two years after starting that pain medication, he was addicted to heroin. Oh my gosh. So about age 17. Yeah. He Oh. um, we had a really, really close relationship. was honest with me, which I'm, Oh. for, but it was also painful 'cause I was. I never had the, the deception, I never had the him telling me lies. He was just brutally honest came to me one day and said, mom, I need to talk to you before I talk to you and dad, and I need to tell you what's going on. And he told me that he had been using heroin and I could feel stomach just drop into the floor. Um, but Of course it's, doesn't it seem like the worst thing that, you know, using heroin? It just seems so unbelievable. And, and obviously Emily kept that secret from me. I wish I would've known more. I always say it's so you don't wanna disappoint your parents. Yeah. and it's different. Every kid's different. Although both of our children were sensitive and almost every. I talked to whose kid ends up with substance use disorder. There's a sensitivity there. Sensitivity to the world is so harsh for so many of them. I think that that is absolutely true. I have never heard of anyone with substance abuse disorder that hasn't been sensitive and intelligent and artistic and articulate, and just a shining soul, and I think the world is too much for them. I, They get stigmatized. This is what really bothers me, is they get stigmatized as bad people as, right. other, you know, as, as even, um, just dispensable, just, you know, who cares if they live or die, they're an addict. And, Yeah. you know, and I'm, I'm, I'm saying what I've heard over the years, uh, and what I've seen written on social media and here you have some of the best people imaginable that end up with substance use disorder. And, and we see that with people in recovery. You know, people in recovery who are just tremendous. Human beings, um, who had the chance to recover. And so tell me more about Adrian's journey. So we, um, did the. We did the things you do, you know, we couldn't believe that this was happening. Um, my mother is a chemical dependency counselor, so, uh, she gave me advice. Uh, we did all of the things. He tried treatment. He tried moving away. He tried. he went to a methadone clinic. He did everything. he fought really, really hard. And that's something that. Also people do not understand about those who are living with an active addiction. They don't want to be that way. They don't want to. Nobody would choose that. Nobody would choose to be the slave to a substance. Right? You're basically, um, turning over your whole life to this substance because you're, I mean, psychologically, spiritually and physically, you cannot live without it. And nobody would choose that. nobody wakes up one day and says, oh, I'm, I wanna be a drug addict someday. Right? Yeah. So my son fought so hard. He did. He fought so hard and um, I was right there with him. You could take the term codependency and put our picture next to it. I think we've all been misled a little bit by those. I mean, I remember, um, you know, having, um, read those codependency books 'cause I had a, a close family member, not my daughter struggling with substance use disorder and thinking, oh, I'm the problem because I'm trying to help, trying to stop it. Try, you know, but I, I think there's, I don't know that I subscribe to all of that, although I think you can certainly enable somebody. Absolutely. And I, I don't, my husband John, his father, um, did, he said, you know, tough love. This is what they say, whoever they is, right? Tough Right. We need to let him hit bottom. And I said, my child is not hitting bottom as long as I am here. It's not a place my child will go. And so. created conflict in our marriage, in our Of course. Definitely many other children do you have? I have two, two other children. Yeah. And where was Adrian in the birth order? He was the oldest. He was Okay. He was the one who taught me what being motherhood is all about. Yeah. So, uh, there was conflict between he and John. Between me and John. Most of the conflicts in our family. Uh, we're centered around Adrian's addiction. It's, it's just true. It, it kind of takes over your entire life, your whole family's life. Everybody is kind of living in the rhythms of the addiction. There are no easy answers. So it's not like, okay, do steps one, two, and three. And every situation is different, every person is different, every family is different. And you're out there, you're searching for answers, you're searching for help. People come to me and they ask me for advice sometimes, and I feel like, well, I've learned a lot over the years. Certainly if I had all of the answers, my kid would still be alive. absolutely. Yeah. And just you're trying everything and it's like a black cloud is following you around. All the time. Yeah. Yeah. And that's really what it was like. Have you lost a loved one to overdose or fentanyl poisoning? I'd like to invite you to share their story on our new Emily's Hope Memorial website called More Than Just a Number. They were our children, siblings, cousins, husbands, wives, aunts, uncles, and friends. So much more than just a number. You can submit a memorial today on morethanjustanumber.org. Kim felt a sense of relief when Adrian found recovery at 23, he seemed to be on a positive path, living at home with Kim and her husband. He used to laugh about, he was a walking, talking cliche, he was living in his parents' basement, um, he was, he wanted to stay away from the people that he knew would be, um, an influence on him and his sobriety He wasn't quite ready to be out there by himself, so we were kind of the safety net. He was living with us. He was living in the basement where he had his own little place and he was doing really well. Um, I really, anybody who lives with someone in addiction knows we have these hopes for them, this future, something ahead. And I could see it even when Adrian couldn't, is his rosy future. He's finally gonna get the life he deserves. He's finally gonna get to be the man that I always knew he could be. And it really seemed like he was on that path. he. Was going to school. was starting his own business. He was working, he was starting to make friends carefully. And then the pandemic happened and the lockdown happened, and, uh, all of those unanswered questions, the volume turned back up. So. And we know the pandemic was so hard on so many people we saw, so, um. Many mental health issues. We saw a huge spike in overdoses in fentanyl, poisonings. We in deaths, a huge, huge spike, um, in all of these things in 20 20, 21, 22, 20 in the years that followed, the immediate years that followed. For Adrian, the pandemic meant no school, no work, and no routine Like many others, he struggled to cope with the sudden changes and the swirl of emotions that came with them. He's in our basement and he relapsed. And Hmm. and then he died of an overdose In your basement in my basement. Yeah, and did you find him, I did. Um. I'm so sorry, Kym. I have this little voice in my head. of us do. Um, something's wrong, something's wrong, something's wrong. Oh yeah. and I, I hear that so often from clients who their child has died, um, that they get a feeling that they have the, these thoughts that something's wrong. And that's exactly what was happening to me. And, um, I thought. Something's wrong with him. And the night before he had told me, uh, he wasn't feeling well. So I texted him and said, do you want me to pick up anything for you on my way home? And he would have shot back a list of 10 things. would've been like, uh, yeah, if you see a giraffe on sale, bring it, bring it home. You know, he was really funny and, uh, he didn't answer. And so. I waited and waited and that text message got so loud, the silence, and I texted him a couple more times, he didn't answer, and I thought, okay, maybe he really is sick. Maybe I should, you know, take him to urgent care. And uh, I texted my husband, John. I said, have you seen Adrian today? Today? And he said, no, but I heard him earlier in the bathroom up here. Well, it turned out that that was not Adrian. That was his younger sibling. So I had that little bit of reassurance, but it just kept getting louder and louder, the silence. And I had this personal SOS, that's what I called it, that I would send to him and. He never failed to answer it, never. Not if he was high, not if he was angry with me, not if he was with friends. He always always answered because I think he understood that this was my SOS and I never overused it. And I said, are you alive? And he did not answer Oh, Kym. Yeah. I get that. I was trying to text my daughter and call her on the day she died and she wasn't answering. And I didn't wanna be that naggy mom who kept trying, you know, I did keep trying and then I got the call. Um, yeah. it's just. You don't want anyone to go through that. no. And so I drove home because as I said, he never failed to answer that question, so I knew, oh, he's really sick. It did not occur to me that. He had overdosed. This was not in my head until I got downstairs and I could his cat meowing behind the closed door. And the sound of that meow was really different than anything I'd ever heard before. And I, I pounded on his door, I was calling him, I still was expecting him to answer, you know, sick saying. Yeah. And he didn't. And so then I opened up his bedroom door on one side and, and I found him. Animals. No, don't they Animals have that sense. And yeah. And then, and then that's something that, um, really that trauma. Uh, complicates grief of, of being there with your dead child.'cause I also, you know, was there, um, after Emily's death, after she had passed away with her, and it's a image in your mind that I, I would replay every day. Yes. I don't as much anymore, but certainly when we're talking, Yeah. um, it all comes back and it's just a, just a thought away. This, the exact feelings that you had. Um. Everything comes rushing back Yeah, it really does. And tomorrow is, um, his anniversary, that's how I refer to it. Fan anniversary, taking Thanos for death and anniversary and putting them together. the anniversary. TH A NO. Yeah. VERSARY Yeah. because it's not an Angelversary. He would think that was hilarious. Yeah, I don't really like that term either. Very much so. You're the only other person I've talked to who's like, I, I, I got a different term, but I like your term. I like your term. So, but that's tomorrow and that's, um, you know, that's a day that's still marked the worst day of my life in my calendar. Oh, of course. And there will never be, I, and I understand you lost your husband as well. Yeah. you've got a couple of wor worst days. as the second worst day in my life. Yeah, Sure I get it. yeah. And um, no matter how much time goes by, these, this time of year, and I always say spring for me is such a difficult time of year because I have Emily's birthday and then I have Mother's Day. The last day I saw her alive and then I have her death date. You are talking about your son's death date and. I, I just know something is wrong. As soon as the weather starts to change and I start to feel a little depression seeping in where spring is supposed to be a happy time of year, Yes. right? Spring is supposed to be rebirth and joy, and, and I start to feel depressed. I'm like, why am I feeling depressed? Oh yes, of course, because spring for me is no matter how many years go by and it will be eight Hmm. um, it doesn't matter. Yeah, same. Same. I feel it in my body before my brain knows what's happening. Great. Yeah, exactly. And, and so you go through all of this with Adrian, and for those listening to the podcast who've been through a death of a child overdose or fentanyl poisoning death, we, we all know, we, I mean, we all, you don't have to say a lot more for us to understand, uh, the, the levels of grief, um, the depths of the grief that you face, and to turn around and lose your husband three months later. Yeah, three months later, um, old was John? Had he been sick? What? What was going on? 53 years old and, so young. yeah, and he was, he was actually in pretty good shape. Um, but we were both devastated by Adrian stuff. Oh, of course. But he carried an extra burden that I did not have as much. And that was the guilt because he had been the tough love parent. He had been the one that said, you just need to want to quit. He had so many regrets, so many things that he wished he could do over, um, and that just ate at him. And he was really, really struggling. Um, I was to, obviously, I, didn't even know how to live. I didn't know if I wanted to live. And, um, three months after Adrian died, I, uh, came home to find, find John on our bedroom floor. Uh, and I tried CPR, but I could already tell it was too late. It was like a, a nightmare happening all over again. The same police came the same co, everything was the same. It was like, I am living in a freaking nightmare right now. And the coroner said that he had suffered a massive heart attack, but uh, I knew he had died of a broken heart, Yes. I wished I could too. Right. Yes. that. I get that sentiment like what is there left to live for You lose, I mean, I know you have other children, Kym, but at in that moment, you've lost your son. You're in the very early stages of the most devastating grief you've ever experienced in your life, and your husband dies. Yes. And what you're telling me is not that uncommon I. because I run a support group of parents and so many of them have suffered from health problems. Following the deaths of their children. It's common, the mind body connection for people to carry, um, the grief in physical ways and in ways that impact their health. Um, and then there are other parents who've completed suicide or who, um, have also died from addiction following the deaths of their children. But I, we have a, a, a member who's been very public of our support group, Jenny Orr, who's been on this podcast who lost her daughter. A year two, um, fentanyl poisoning and a year, her teenage daughter. And a year later her husband died from heart issues and he had suffered from some health issues from COVID. But it is a broken, I mean, we all have broken hearts and they manifest themselves in different ways. absolutely. And I think if the medical profession would start seeing grief as a factor Yeah. in illness and, and not just say, uh, have you been stressed lately? Have you, but say, have you experienced grief? Imagine how that might change some of those outcomes. I went to the doctor with my husband because he could barely speak, so I went as a support to him. And, um, she was, I, because I was worried about him. Um, and she was asking, you know, about his diet, about his exercise, about all these things, and I told her, um, our son just died. Two months ago, and she said, oh, I'm so sorry, and just moved right on. Oh, really? should think this could factor into this gentleman's health Yes. Yes. Right. That's. They aren't trained and they aren't trained necessarily for that, but they, we could use training like that. And I think about even the, um, during those early months after Emily died, the pain I had in my chest, I had physical pain. And so it does, it affects us physically. I mean, I'm lucky I have a healthy heart, but if you're health, heart wasn't healthy, that healthy to begin with, and especially for men, um, yeah, a risk factor for sure. So he, uh, yeah. And I was angry. I was so angry. I was angry at God. I was angry. Angry at the universe. I was angry at John. How dare you get to go and me not. dare Yeah. And um, so I was really in a place of absolute horrible despair where I could not see any other life for me ever. And I'll tell you about, uh, why I stayed because my younger son came to me and his name's Gabe, and he said, mom, is, can you do something for me? And I said, yes, yes, anything. And he said. Stay alive, Oh die. So,'cause he needs you. Your other kids needed you, I mean, more than ever after.'cause they also, yeah, um, experienced these losses in a different way, but they definitely experienced them. Yeah. So I took a, a sharpie and I wrote, don't die on a sticky note. And I put it on my dresser and I touched it every single morning Oh. not today. As much as it depends on me, not today, and I still have that sticky note on my dresser. I still touch it. It's, the words are all faded and, you know, um, you can't really read it. It's just a smudged mess. It's all tattered. But I remember where I was and how I felt when I wrote those words. And how deeply in despair I was and how I thought, I will never feel differently than this ever. This is it. This is my life forever now. Right, right. I remember those feelings. I mean, Yes. not right that that's your life forever, but I remember. That kind of feeling like I just, I, I remember thinking, okay, I gotta live like 20, 30 years without my daughter. Who knows how long, you Yeah. why would I wanna do that? Why, why I wanna live in this kind of pain and this kind of despair. Um, Yeah. but that kind of pain and that kind of despair, even after two tremendous losses, does not remain exactly the same. it does not. And that's what I tell people all the time. You will not always feel this way, I promise you. And if somebody had told me that at that time, I wouldn't have believed him. But it might have given me a glimmer, So you were really hanging on by a thread. You're hanging on by a thread. thread. What else did you do or what else happened that made it possible for you to survive? I. uh, I found what I call my grief tribe, is other people who have. Experienced grief or are experiencing grief. and I found a connection with them that gave me a sense of community. And I realized, oh, the more we talk, the more I realized, oh, I'm not the only one that's going through this. Oh, this is normal. I thought there were five stages of grief and we were supposed to go, you know, through them and wait, nobody else is going through the stages. So. Right. Uh, that really was helpful to me. And then as we discussed before, I found David Kessler um, I found his What. program. For people who don't know, David Kessler is a grief expert Yeah. and educator, and both you and I went through David Kessler's grief Educator training and we're both certified grief educators. Right? Yes. and so I also lead a support group in my community and it has also helped me with this podcast, some of the knowledge that I gained. And you are with thousands of people in this training. It's a virtual training for. 12 weeks and, um, you get, you do work, you work on your own grief, you talk about, you listen to other people. What was most helpful for you in that training? I became a member of Tender Hearts First and Tender Hearts is his, his online grief group for people who are in grief. And so that's where I started getting what I call the little nuggets of gold uh, things that I could hold onto and go, okay, I might not be able to this to myself today, but I'm gonna keep it for later. Because I am seeing that other people are surviving that seem unsurvivable, and so that's where I first saw my first glimmers of hope. Like I said. Um, and we also want to not only survive, but to thrive. And so even saying that it almost sounds disloyal to the people you lost, right? How do you thrive without these important cherished people in your life? Yeah. Well, what I realized is that they're still with me. I still have a relationship with Hmm. Uh, they influence every single thing that I do. Every I say, every step I take into the world, they are with me and they continue to influence me. And once I realized that, once I was able to realize that the relationship doesn't end with death. Um, I truly believe that love is the only thing we take with us when we go. once I felt that, once I realized that, and I'm not saying it happened quickly, it didn't happen quickly. It was a long and very painful process. I agree with you. Yeah. I agree with you. Yeah. It same for me. then I was able to ask what would they want from me? Right. Yeah. what would you want for them if you weren't there? of And it's no different. It's no different. Your loved one that you lost, Yeah. that is only wants the best for you because they loved you and they don't want you to be suffering in such, And I had another thing. I know you're going to resonate with this because I listened to your very first podcast you talked about, you didn't just wanna talk about how Emily died. You wanted to talk about how she lived. And so I had this moment where I realized. I was focusing on the end of Adrian's life, on the worst part of his life, his addiction. I was so focused on that and reliving it over and over and over again. Everything was focused on that, the worst. that is not what my son would want. He didn't want to be an addict, as we've said before, no one wants to be. And here I was letting these, the worst times, the most. Dark, desperate times, overshadow every sunshine moment of his wonderful life because he was so, so much more, so much more. And that was a big shift for me to realize I needed to be focusing on his life, on who he was outside of addiction. it really changed the way that I had a relationship with him. It did it, it just really did. Yeah, that is beautiful. And that is why we do so much with my daughter's art, Mm-hmm. in our charity because she really truly lives on, through her art and as a part of her that, you know, you can see. Yeah, Her path with addiction in her artwork sometimes, but it is just something that she's left behind that we honor and it means so much. And I, I think about what you are doing, and I just recently heard what I thought. Was something so beautiful from, he's a Harvard Happiness Professor, Arthur C. Brooks, also a bestselling author, and I've read a couple of his books, but I just heard him recently say, don't waste your suffering. Don't waste it. So everyone suffers. Yeah. Everyone at some level, at some point in their lives and not wasting it to me means doing the kinds of things you are doing now, helping others in grief. Tell me where you got to the point. I, I understand you started thinking about how your son lived and, yeah. and probably your husband too, and then you decided you were gonna help others and go through the educator training and, and start grief support groups and, and write a book and do all these things. How did you get to that point? Well, I took David's grief educator training and um, it really just. Grew and more in me, this certainty that I want to be the person that I needed when there was no one because I. Uh, I went to therapists. Um, I went to three different therapists. The first one asked me about volunteering, and I was like, what's volunteering? the second one asked, no. The second one told me about addiction. Talk to me about addiction for like 30 minutes. And I was like, okay. That's like, um, hurricane prevention. After the storm has passed, I knew all about addiction. I sure you did. I didn't, I, my son had died from addiction, so that's why I was there. And then the third one asked me about diet and exercise. And I joke, but it's serious when I say my diet then was Doritos and a bottle of wine, and Sure. that's just where I was. And so all of those experiences felt very surreal um, I realized. These, they don't know what I'm going through. And they didn't, I'm not saying they were bad therapists, but they weren't grief informed. So It's so interesting to me. You see a need in the world and then you realize you have to be the person to fill it. Mm-hmm. I can relate to that on on many different levels, but you see a need in the world that something's just missing. Um, and there's something inside of you that answers that call. Yeah. I, I, if I could prevent one person from the confusion and isolation from feeling that, that I did, I'll do it. Absolutely. I will do it. I know you've got a PDF on your website that people can download that. Talk about five things you wish you knew about grief right when you started on this. Can you tell me about those? zero. Yeah, the five things that I wish I knew about Grief at Ground Zero. Are you ready to protect the next generation from the dangers of substance use? Emily's Hope has created a comprehensive K through 12 substance use prevention curriculum designed to educate, empower, and equip students with the tools they need to make healthy choices. Our age appropriate lessons start in kindergarten and build through high school using science, real stories, and interactive learning to help kids understand their bodies, brains, and risk of drug use. We're already reaching thousands of students across multiple states, and we're just getting started. Visit emilyshopeedu.org to learn more, and share our curriculum with your school administrators and counselors. At Emily's Hope, we believe prevention begins with education. Let's work together to keep our kids safe. If you'd like to check out the five things I wish I knew about Grief at Ground Zero, just head to this podcast show notes. We've included a link to Kim's website. You'll also find other grieving out loud episodes where we've talked with grief experts about finding joy and purpose after a devastating loss. In the beginning when the explosion has happened, when you are standing in the aftermath of this devastating occurrence. That most of us never see coming, and you're like, how do I proceed? What do I do? And so I wanted people to know, what the things were that I wished that I had known. At that time, um, because according to everything that we were told, according to everything that we're, that society tells us, uh, we are supposed to do these things, these steps. And so if we're not doing the steps, we think we're broken. And I really, really wanted people to understand that they're not broken. So, uh, I, yeah, I created this PDF and yeah, people can go and download it and look at it, but So one thing, you're not broken, You're not right? Yeah, What's the second thing? Well, there's no right or way, right or There's no right or wrong way to grieve right? isn't. Your way is your way. Yeah. And that was really a freeing concept to me because. I, I thought grieving was going to be sadness and crying and missing them, and it was all of those things. But there were other things going on with me, like this simmering anger that I was like. I don't, I don't think I'm doing this right. I think I'm stuck, you know, and I hear that so often from my clients. I think I'm stuck. I'm doing this again. Um, I am, other people are having this experience and I'm having this experience. So, yeah, letting people know there is not a wrong way to grieve. There is only your way, So you are not broken. There's no right or wrong way to grieve. What is the third thing? your grief is gonna last longer than other people will understand. Yeah. Or wanna tolerate sometimes too. Other people are like, just get over it. absolutely. It, it changes, it morphs, it comes, it goes, it, you know, it's, it's, it's kind of like this living thing. Yeah. Yeah. And it does take longer than we expect as well. Um, there's some weird thing, you know, culturally, like one year, the magical one year mark where. you, get three days off work if you're lucky. Yeah. I mean, I did take more time off work personally, but I mean, how society treats it. Yeah. yeah, on with your life. And the, um, the idea that by one year, okay, things are gonna start to shift. But honestly, and you know, this Angela, the first year is a blur. like a Yeah. It's shock. It's, the first year is shock and for you it's like double shock. So I, yeah. there's, Yeah. and then the second year is when you start to realize, oh, this is permanent. And that is a devastating realization. Yeah. year is depression. That's for me anyway, what I experienced And so it's, it's gonna last longer than you think. And I, I last longer than you think Yeah. longer than society wants to allow you to experience it. to move on earlier than you are, and. The most devastating thing to me was people stopped talking about them. Mm-hmm. and I don't know if it's that people are afraid they're gonna remind us. Like there's nothing that could make me forget for one second that my son and my husband are dead. But it's just so strange the way people just kind of erase them from. From conversations, and I could not stand that, and that's why I named my business Adrian Grief support because I wanted to see my son's name. I wanted to hear his name. I, I wanted his name in my life. I wanted him in my Yeah. and so that was why I named it after him. Yeah. And then the fourth thing. The fourth thing. Is that it's gonna change you. And we talked about this a little bit before you started the, the podcast that, uh, you're not gonna go back to who you were. I think that was really hard for me at first. In, in the very beginning I thought, this is not my story. This is not how my life was supposed to turn out. I mean, did you feel those feelings of resistance to reality to what was like, I should be in control of my story. This is, and this is not who I am supposed to be, but you're definitely changed by and not. There are some things certainly that I, I'm definitely am more anxious about, um, my loved ones, like my other kids. Uh, definitely more, I know bad things can happen, you know, bad things can happen. Well, the worst things, um, but they're also good in positive ways that you change. And that's hard to swallow. really is. Right? Um, people call that post-traumatic growth. I call it the evolution of grief. why that's the title of my book, because. It's what happens. It also falls under that category of don't waste your suffering. If you're changing for the better, you're not wasting your suffering. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. and it's just, the way that I look at it is, uh, I felt like I had broken a limb, right? And I was trying to learn to walk on it. I was trying to learn to, um, run on it. People couldn't see that my limb was shattered underneath me. And Right. healed, I started to feel guilty, like, wait, shouldn't I be limping forever? Shouldn't I be going through this pain forever? And so that's another thing that we don't expect, is that when the healing starts, we're gonna feel guilty for it. So, wrote a couple of blogs about that very subject. That one is called The Walking Wounded, and the other one is called The Dance Between Grief and Joy, because like there's still be joy in your life and how, how can that be when I'm supposed to, yeah. I mean it's just, it's a weird place to be. Is. But I had this realization that if I don't take this hard earned wisdom and. Um, I hate to use all of these cliche type words, but they're real. In this case, you know, I did gain wisdom. I did gain acceptance for others. I did become a more understanding person. All of these things and to refuse them like just breaking my leg over and over and over again and again. It was not honoring my son or my husband, it was not, it was focusing on their deaths and not their lives. And I. that point, I knew what they wanted me to do. They wanted me to live in honor of them. So, And that's exactly what you're doing. And finally, the fifth. uh, the fifth thing is that, um, strength is not what you think it is. Okay. Let's let, before you dive into strength is not what you think it is. Tell me how many people have told you that you're strong. I don't know if I have a number that. Thousands. Right. I mean, I hear that. I've heard that all the time over the last eight years as well, and I think I, I'm not strong. Yeah. I don't know. those who listen to this who have not experienced grief, those are about the most hated words. I agree. We ever You're so strong. You're so strong, Kym. You're so strong. You need to be strong. Now that I was also Yes. you Told you need to be strong. Yeah. So it's just this toxic positivity that. Sometimes Yeah. the levels And so if strength isn't what we think, that's your fifth yeah. here. What is it? for me, strength was before I, you know what I'm saying? Before time after time. In the before time, I considered strength to be having a step up stiff upper lip and just kind of pushing through things and um, being That's what most people think it is, right? walls up, um, being, you know, defensive, protecting myself. And me, strength has turned out to be almost the exact opposite. those walls down and allowing myself to be really vulnerable and loving with people. And, um. Cry, and I never would've seen those things as strength. But to become emotionally vulnerable and open with my grief and be really intentional with my grief, that has become strength to me. I think that's beautiful. I, I, I don't know that I've heard it put exactly in that way before, but it is a beautiful sentiment. Yeah. And, um, over this, through this podcast, I have been vulnerable, uh, telling my truth and through my blog and just telling Emily's story. And there you do have to go out into, and it does take a certain amount of courage to be vulnerable because you open yourself up. Yeah, To people that are not kind yeah, and to people that don't understand, and it certainly happens, and then you have to just continue on yeah, falter because of that. To me, it means choosing love instead of fear over and over and over again. And I mean, you keep getting the choice presented in front of you. you gonna respond from love or fear? And so to me, strength has been choosing love over and over and over again. Understanding when people let you down or, um, don't respond the way that you want them to. Responding to that with love is the hardest thing that you can do, but it's also so worth, worth doing. And then you've gone on to write a book, and we'll put a link to that in our show notes. But I wanted to ask you about the loss of your partner, your husband, because I can relate to the loss of a child. But I rely so much on my husband F for Yeah. understanding and, and support and partnership. And so how have you coped with that? I would think that, um, many times in those three months I would think of John, you know, whether he was in the other room or, and I would think you are the only person who understands exactly how I feel. Right. He and, um, he was the only one who loved Adrian with that same desperate love. love, That a parent can. That a parent can. Yeah. And so, um, when he died, as I said, I was really angry for a long time. I was angry at him. I felt abandoned. Um, I felt like he had left me here to do this life alone, and I, didn't want to, no part of me that wanted to. But over time I've come to realize that that is just what my grief looked like at that time. Because you know, anger is that big bodyguard that stands in front of all of our other feelings. the feelings that I had over my partner dying over, the man that I had loved since I was 16 years old, dying, uh, were so huge and they were so big that anger had to stand in front of 'em. And I also learned you can't grieve two people at the same time. You have to grieve the losses individually. And Adrian's loss was world shattering, absolutely destroyed everything. And I had to process that before I could even begin to look at John and losing him. And so in many real ways, I, I am deep in grief over John right now. Of course. How? And. How could you not be, Yeah. and you probably always will be to some extent. I absolutely will be. I absolutely will be. Um, you know, we, we grew up together. I, I spent more of my life with him than I did without him. And he was really my rock. He was a very steady man who, um, just kind of my safe harbor. then when I lost him, I lost that too. I lost everything. people who. listening to this who have lost their partner will understand that becoming a me after being a we is so frightening. It's so scary. You don't know how to do it. no instructions, and you're incredibly, incredibly lonely. Yeah. That's what's scary to people, I think is the thought of that loneliness. Um, won't, I won't Brightside grievers ever. I never sh sugarcoat stuff. I never brightside 'em. It's true. It's the loneliest thing that you can go through. It really right, It's awful. I, and what's getting you through it today? well, again, I. Know that our relationships do not end with death. I, I know this. I don't say I believe it because I know it. Capital K. No, the love continues between us and the relationship continues and he is with me in everything I do. strange thing. not sure if this is true for you, but it's true for me and a lot of my clients and a lot of my friends who are grief people, um, that. We don't think of them less after they die. If anything, we start thinking about them more. And that's one of the things that the outside world has no idea. They're thinking, okay, it's been six months. I mean, how often could you be thinking about it? Well, every six seconds at that point, it's constant. So, um. doesn't change. And it hasn't changed. It hasn't changed for me. This morning I was sitting outside in the yard watching the dogs run around, and Adrian and John were right there with me, there with me. And I'm thinking to them, you know, like, we're having a conversation and that's normal in grief. That's really, really normal. But, um, people think, oh, cuckoo, if you say that, right? Yeah, I don't think so. And I think it should be more normalized. And I Yeah. also the work you're doing, putting your energy and. Um, into helping others. I always say, and I've said it time and time again, helping others helps me. Yeah. Um, that has been where I have found the purpose in the pain, and I'm sure you as well. Helping is Yeah. believe that, Helping is healing. healing. Yeah. Well, I just wanna thank you so much for sharing your story with our listeners and all those who are now watching the podcast on YouTube as well. And just really appreciate and you know, the fact that you are so open and vulnerable and honest about everything that you've been through. And, um. I think it, your story and, and your willingness to be educated and to go out and then help others turning, not wasting your suffering at Yeah. at all, and, and turning it into something very purposeful, very meaningful, is a gift to the world. So thank you for doing that, Kym. Thank you so much, Angela. I appreciate you and I appreciate what you're doing. I really do. I'm just so Thank you. with you today. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you for listening to this episode of Grieving Out Loud. If you found it helpful, please take a moment to share it with loved ones and rate and review it. Together we can make a difference and change lives. If you'd like more information about our organization, Emily's Hope, we've posted a link to our website in the show notes. Thank you again for listening. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Winberg, king and Kaylee Fitz.