With the number of drug overdose deaths dropping, some are celebrating, but is there a risk in declaring victory too early and cutting funding for prevention? Today's guest on grieving out loud, an addiction researcher at Stanford says, not so fast. About 72,000 overdose deaths a year still exceeds the total number of Americans who died in the Vietnam War. 10 years ago, 50,000 when we reached 50,000 was a crisis. And now people would love to see 50,000. And that's a, that's tragedy, Dr. Wayne Kepner says, not only are far too many people still dying, but celebrating too early could cost more lives. He recently wrote an article titled America Must Not Learn to Live with 72,000 overdose deaths a year. We see these numbers coming down and it becomes politically easier to say, well, we've done a lot. Numbers are coming down. Maybe we don't need this much money going into treatment. So that's what I make. The argument I'm make in the piece is normalization of the of these deaths often follows after a success, which is confusing and counterintuitive. Why would you wanna let up on the things that work when we're being successful? But oftentimes that's what happens when numbers start to drop In this episode of Grieving Out Loud, Dr. Hoeppner shares what history has taught us about past drug epidemics and how these lessons can guide the path forward while preventing as many deaths as possible. We like to think that we watch these numbers and we want the numbers to go down and we're gonna keep fighting until that number is zero. But in my experience and my reading of history, that's not how, how it happens, you know, the numbers stop going down when the people that are dying don't have a voice. The numbers are moving in the right direction. Drug overdose deaths fell from roughly 110,000 in 2023 to about 72,000 in 2025. Now, every life saved certainly matters, but my guest today is asking a question that keeps me up at night. Are we celebrating too soon? Dr. Wayne Kepner. Is a fellow at the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at Stanford University School of Medicine, where his research focuses on addiction, health services and policy. He's also someone in long-term recovery. a recent piece he wrote for STAT News, Wayne wrote something that just stopped me cold, that 72,000 overdose deaths a year exceeds total American combat fatalities in Vietnam, and we're treating it. Like a victory. He calls it the stable floor. The moment a death toll stops being treated as an emergency and starts being treated as the cost of doing business. I lost my daughter, Emily, to fentanyl poisoning in 2018, and I know what it means to be one of those numbers. We can't afford to normalize this. Today, Wayne and I are gonna talk about what it will take to keep on pushing. And Wayne, I have to tell you, thank you for being on the program. I'm so excited to talk to you. But that number, 72,000 is what it was when my daughter died in 2018, and I was shouting from the rooftops that we have to do something to end this epidemic. Wow, thank you for that introduction. You know, 72,000, it can feel confusing, Right. Because for so long we've been wanting to see the numbers come down and families and friends and politicians and, and really it seems like the whole world has been. Watching the numbers climb in and it's been horrible. Um, we know they're not numbers. They're lives. I'm someone in long-term recovery. I've lost friends and, and loved ones to overdose. Um, and my mission now is to now that I've overcome my own struggles with addiction, is to help those who are continuing to suffer. So when I watched these numbers go up, it was horrifying. And now it's a little bit confusing because the numbers are starting to drop. So, where do we put our attention? Do we celebrate? Of course we do. Um, but what's next? What comes next? Do we move on to the next crisis? And that's really the point of my piece is saying, you know, through my reading of history and other epidemics, there is a pattern where once the numbers start to drop, um, it can be easy to claim victory. And, and move on to the next pressing issue. And, and I really urge all of us, um, in this time to actually come together and fight harder. Um, and which is hard to do when it doesn't seem as urgent as it was a few years ago. So I'll start with that. I. well, people wanna say problem solved, right? And 72,000 deaths a year is certainly not a problem solved. However, I do think in today's world, it's really tough for people to stay focused on one crisis, right? We're constantly. Inundated all kinds of news every day. It's really, this news cycle is very hard to keep up Mm-hmm. and everything seems like a crisis, and I feel that as someone who's been in this space doing work regarding this overdose in fentanyl poisoning crisis since 2018. feel the shift in the focus not being as much on this or people maybe fatigued by the issue, even though I think because of those 110,000 deaths, and I don't even think that number's accurate. I think the number's actually much higher than that. Yes. even with that number, um, we reached a tipping point where so many people were impacted this problem that they couldn't ignore it. But I do feel that sense of fatigue. I hear you. And, and that's the problem and, and I made the parallel to drunk driving and alcohol because it's something that we've seen in the past. We had a huge problem with underage drinking and drunk driving, and those numbers went up and. You know, the country pulled together and made some big tough choices and the numbers start to go down. And over time, this same fatigue sets in where it almost feels like there's nothing we can do about it. This is just life. And you know, kids are gonna drive and drink and, you know, well that's just life now. And I really would hate to live in a world where that happens to the opioid overdose crisis where we say, well, we did. We gave it our best shot. We did everything we could. And this is life now. And you know, we're just gonna move on with 70, 60, 50,000 deaths a year. And I'm, and like the point I'm making, the piece is, 10 years ago, 50,000 when we reached 50,000 was a crisis. And now people would love to see 50,000. And that's a, that's tragedy, right. So, um, I really don't wanna live in a world where we move on because it's, it's too tiring to keep fighting. All right. Neither do I. Let's talk about the parallels to drunk driving accidents. So I, you know, I remember some of this as a kid, uh, when Mothers Against Drunk Drivers came out. What I think drinking ages were changed in states in order for them to get federal funds. Things like that. And what were the, what was the high point of the deaths From drunk driving of young, with mostly young people. Right. Um, was there a high point? And then what did it, what was it reduced to? Do you know? It. It's hard to say, like you said about the overdose crisis. You know the actual numbers may be incorrect, but the numbers that we do have around 20 to 25,000 at the height, and then it dropped 50%, which is a lot to around 10 to 15,000, which that's where it is now. So, the same yeah, years later. Decades later, So is that what's gonna happen to the opioid crisis where it gets to a hundred, 110,000 and then we have it to 50,000? And it just stays at 50,000 for the rest of my life. That will be a tragedy. And I think if we don't start to have that conversation of what do we do next, we're gonna slip into that reality. And I really, uh, don't wanna live in that world. Yeah, I don't either. And I think 10,000 or 12,000 deaths a year from drunk driving. For those families that are impacted by that, it's certainly not acceptable. I mean, if you are the one, and you could be the one anyone could be, um, you know, it's just when it, when it hits home, when it's personal, that's when people seem to care. When you throw out these statistics. They don't mean a lot to people. According to Stat News, the Trump administration has dismantled large portions of the federal agency focused on mental health and addiction treatment, cutting the staff by more than half. By October of 2025, the agency reported that fewer than half of the roughly 900 employees on staff in January of 2025 remained. On top of that, more than 1.6 million people could lose their coverage for addiction treatment because of proposed federal Medicaid cuts. at the time where the current administration is celebrating a reduction in deaths by 81 deaths a day, 81, fewer people are dying. Mm-hmm. At that very same time, they've made cuts to programs to help people suffering from substance use disorder, pro cuts to programs and prevention. What kinda message is that sending do you think? It is a very conflicting message, and I think we can read it in several ways. Number one, maybe they think the mission is accomplished, Right. So we see these numbers coming down and it becomes politically easier to say, well, we've done a lot. Numbers are coming down. Maybe we don't need this much money going into treatment. So that's what I make. The argument I'm make in the piece is normalization of the of these deaths often follows after a success, which is confusing and counterintuitive. Why would you wanna let up on the things that work when we're being successful? But oftentimes that's what happens when numbers start to drop when we are doing a good job. That's exactly when we stopped doing the funding and we stopped when we stopped putting money into the evidence-based programs, um, because it is a little bit easier if the numbers went up, it would've been harder to cut the programs. If numbers went from one 10 to one 50, maybe it would've been harder to cut the programs, but a little bit of good news can give the political cover. To cut these programs, unless we do something about it. We raise our voices, we double down and say, no, we're not gonna allow this to happen. We need these fundings for our, you know, for our families, our friends, and our children. Um, and that's why, you know, I think you're doing the work that you're doing and the work I'm doing, the work that I'm doing to get the word out there that this is not a time to let up, it's a time to double down. Right. It is not a time to let up. It is certainly a time to continue this work, if not double our efforts. Uh, I wanna see that number at zero. But what, and I don't want it to be political. It shouldn't be political. It's a human problem. It's, Mm-hmm. affects everybody. It doesn't matter what, what political party you're in. Substance use disorder and. Illicit drug use and, and getting something. You think it's one thing. It's, it's, it's not can affect anybody no matter what your political party is. So I would like to see it be a non-partisan issue. No. And no one political party has the answers on how to solve this problem because we haven't solved it. I think that's the thing that you are, important thing that you are saying. While it's good that it's dropping, it's a problem that is not solved. What do you think? led to the numbers going down in, in your, you study this, you study this, this Hmm. what do you think has worked? Yeah, so thank you for that question. It, it's hard to say exactly. I'll give you my intuition and, and my read from what I've read and studied. There are consistent patterns. Historically, this is not the first opioid crisis the world has seen. There have been many, uh, and I'm not just talking about America, I'm talking about all over the world. There have been many opioid crisis crises. Now, what tends to happen is when a new drug or a, um, a new type of technology comes onto the scene, there's a mass confusion and there's a mass, um, uncertainty of how to use the drug, What it does. So deaths go up. That's normal. Um, and then shortly after that, sometimes it takes years, but sometimes it takes decades or generations. People get used to it, right? The word gets out saying, oh, look, this thing fentanyl. It's not like oxycon. It's not like heroin. You can't do it the same way that it's been done. And, and you know, when heroin first came out, morphine first came out, it was a little bit confusing. So that's for sure. Number one, people are just getting better at using the drug, right? So fentanyl injection, for example, went down a lot. People are not injecting fentanyl like they used to. Now they're smoking it or taking it as a pill. We've realized, or people have realized the word has gotten out. Uh, fentanyl is dangerous, so people just get used to it. Number two, we've done a lot programs like yours, education funding. We've spread the word out saying, look, this pill that you're taking, maybe you think it's a Xanax and you have a prescription for a Xanax. Um, but it could be fentanyl, right? So these kind of interventions have worked really, really well. Um, and then third, um, kind of a sadder. Statistic is a lot of the people who are extremely vulnerable to overdose have have overdosed. And oftentimes the ones that are left are the, the younger, the healthier ones, the people who have less health problems. Um, so a lot of the, the people who may have had health conditions, um, that led them to overdose easier, they've already passed away. And finally, my mentor, Keith Humphreys, recently published a paper in science and they looked at the supply of fentanyl. So they found that Chinese fentanyl has um, gone down in potency. So perhaps there's been some talks with our administration and, and the Chinese administration saying, Hey, let's tackle this issue. Let's stop this flow of fentanyl. So it's been all of those things. We've, we've really thrown a lot of time and resources and money into this problem. So everything has worked? That's the problem. When everything is working, that's exactly the time to double down or at least continue what we've been doing. And that's the opposite of what's happening. Once everything starts to work, now we're taking everything away and that's, I think, the wrong way to go. Right, right. We I, Especially to cut prevention programs. We know that saves money on the backend, right? If you don't have to treat somebody with substance use disorder, you save money mm-hmm. Um, I think the estimates, and I don't, I don't know how they figure this out, is for, for every dollar spent in prevention, you save 14 to $75. But that amount of fentanyl. In the drug supply. That's an interesting one. And you mentioned that your mentor had published a paper on it because I was recently at a conference where I heard an expert talk about how in some of the pills that they're testing now, the illegal pills, they're finding less than two milligrams of fentanyl. They're finding fentanyl in the pills, but they're finding less than two milligrams of fentanyl in the pills. And we know two milligrams is about sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less, right? Not exactly. Science for every person can kill someone. So maybe the illicit drugs are getting, the people who make the illicit drugs, the the Chinese who manufacture the precursors and the cartels that put it together. Maybe they're trying to make a safer product. Could that be the case? Absolutely. So. It's kind of wild to think about, but when Fentanyl first came on the scene, it was just people doing it in their garages. Um, you know, for, I'll give you an example. Um, they busted a garage operation where, you know, there was a table with, you know, a NutriBullet. Have you ever made a, a protein shake or, or something? It's like a Mm, you know, you, you, you screw on the top and you do that a Blender So they just had 20 or 30 blenders and they put fentanyl pills in there. They got the, or they got precursors in there. They mix it up into a, in a NutriBullet and they were blending up. Fentanyl in a Nutri bowl and pressing it into powders. So if you think about like protein powder or creatine or matcha powder, and then you're doing it in your NutriBullet and you're putting it into a pill. That is not a good way to have a specific dose. That's how it started. I don't know if that's how it's continued. I can imagine people have gotten better at dosing. There's been a lot of pressure from the US government and other governments to say, Hey, you know, there, it's, it's too hot of a situation. We need to bring these deaths down. Also, they've been mixing it with other substances like Xylazine, tranquilizers, um, because you know. The market caught up saying, look, we can't do this to our customers. Um, so I think it was a combination. Everyone got better. There's a lot of at creating these drugs. People got better at using the drugs, the government put pressure. It was, you know, it was really a team effort to get all of these downs. But I think you're correct. The, the level of fentanyl has gone down. Yeah, which is, is good news, but still, still such a precarious and dangerous drugs. And, and then we know there are other, uh, opioid analogs out there such as nitazines, which are even more powerful and more dangerous, Mm-hmm. discovered in the drug supply since 2019. So you just don't know what's coming around the bend Are you ready to protect the next generation from the dangers of substance use? Emily's Hope has created a comprehensive K through 12 substance use prevention curriculum designed to educate, empower, and equip students with the tools they need to make healthy choices. Our age-appropriate lessons start in kindergarten and build through high school using science, real stories, and interactive learning to help kids understand their bodies, brains, and risk of drug use. We're already reaching thousands of students across multiple states, and we're just getting started. Visit emilyshopeedu.org to learn more, and share our curriculum with your school administrators and counselors. At Emily's Hope, we believe prevention begins with education. Let's work together to keep our kids safe. Dr. Hoeppner says he's grateful Fentanyl had not yet widely entered the illicit drug supply when he struggled with substance use disorder. Although fentanyl was developed in 1959 and has long been used for medical purposes, a sharp rise in the overdose. Death tied to illicit fentanyl began to emerge in 2013 and 2014 and onward., One of the early generations I call, like, to call'em the Oxycontin kids. I was 19 years old. I had a wisdom tooth surgery. Um, that didn't go great. And at that time, the best available advice was, well, if somebody has. Pain we call, at that time we were calling it the fifth vital sign. Uh, well, you just flood them with Oxy. So as a 19-year-old kid, I was an undergrad at UCLA, you know, I was prescribed Oxycontin, and I don't have to get into much of the details, but it started from there and it didn't end well. You know, it was years and years of, um, opioid addiction and, you know, thankfully. I made it through it. And you know, it's been 10 plus years in recovery now, but a lot of my friends didn't. I've had multiple friends overdose and pass away from, you know, opioids and contaminated opioids. And, you know, my life today is, is in remembrance of those of my friends, um, who passed away. And, you know, I want people not to have to suffer, um, or lose friends and family like I did. first of all, congratulations on your recovery. Thank You of the lucky ones I have heard on this podcast time and time again, stories of young people who got addicted to opioids following. A medical procedure, oftentimes the wisdom teeth, I've Mm-hmm. over and over Mm-hmm. um, but sometimes other surgeries and things like that long before your brain was fully developed. And I can only imagine, uh, the pain that that caused you in your life. And I can also only think that if you've been in recovery for 10 years, that you recovered at the right time before the illicit drug market got really dangerous out there. Yeah, so I, I stopped in 2014, so I was, I stopped right at the beginning. And that was around the time when my friends started passing away, and I think that had a big part to play with. Um, you know, I think I lost two friends in one month, um, right when Fentanyl first came on the scene. Um, and, and I can't really, it's hard to say like what it was, um, that changed me and, and made, made or gave me the, the strength and hope to, to seek recovery. Um, but I think. Probably looking back, deep down, it had a lot to do with that. Like the world was changing so fast. Fentanyl was on the scene, my friends were dying, and I really didn't really wanna take it anymore and I caused so much pain for myself and my family. Right? We never talk about this, or it's not that. We never, we rarely talk about the, the pain that it causes families. Um, you know, my mother especially, so. Yeah, I'm, I'm definitely one of the lucky ones, and I feel that sense of responsibility now of, you know, putting my story out there. getting my, you know, doing that research, um, And and really sharing what I've learned to help other people. Um, there's not enough of us. And you now have your doctorate and you're immersed in these studies of Mm-hmm. What do you know now that you wish you would've understood at 19, 20, 21, those young ages? Mm-hmm. Uh, it's a family disease. It's something. And coming from an Asian background, a lot of our family values were about hiding imperfections and keeping a, you know, saving face, those kind of things. So, you know, I found out that addiction was something that was prevalent in my family. Uh, but noone told me until I was much older, and I think if I had that information. Maybe I would've done something differently. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe I would've ended my, um, I would've maybe sought help earlier. But I had been under so much, or I had experienced so much shame and, and remorse of the things that I had done. And, and now that I'm in recovery and, you know, now I'm a PhD researcher and school of psychiatry, I really realized that a lot of my. Life experiences were heavily influenced by my genetics. Um, and it's allowed me to let go of a lot of the guilt and shame that I had felt being like, not that it was a destiny for me, but a lot of it was a, a genetic predisposition. Right. Just like diabetes, if you have diabetes that runs in your family, you don't blame yourself. I mean, you may not be eating correctly, Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. you don't blame yourself for having diabetes. And the same should be said for addiction and certainly in my daughter's case, addiction, or Ann, in her, in her, well, my grandfather. Was an alcoholic, started Alcoholics Anonymous in the early, early days, and on her dad's side of the family, she definitely has addiction. So, you know that it, those, it's like the perfect storm when you have the genetics along with the availability and the social influences and the personality, right? You've gotta have some personality traits to, to be able to try these things. Absolutely. That was one of the confusing things when I was young and in college. You know, I wasn't the only person being the way that I was. Everyone was right at 19 years old. There's a lot of experimentation, alcohol and drugs and just like, uh, living life as a teenager in Los Angeles. It seemed like everyone was engaging in the behaviors that I was, but for some reason, only a subset of us were experiencing the vast consequences. And it was so confusing for me. I thought there was something wrong with me. I thought I was bad. Um, and only later did I realize, well, well, that has a lot to do with genetics and the way you were born and the way you were raised. Um. And yeah, it's it for a young person it can be confusing. Why? I have a group of 50 friends and only two of us are not able to go to class in the morning. But everyone else has a norm. Elf has a normal life. And if we can get that message out there that, you know, the same, it's Like playing tennis, right? Like. There's a hundred kids playing tennis and two are just really good at it for no reason. And it could seem really unfair. Like, oh, there's, they're just naturals, Right? Um, whether it's their co hand-eye coordination or, or what have you, there's the opposite too. There are people who are more susceptible to negative things, um, and I think if we get that message out there saying. It may seem really unfair that you are the only one that can't have a drink in the same way as everyone else, and it feels really weird because you're left out. But that's just how the human brain is, especially at that young age. Um, we're all different and, and I wish we can get that message out there. And I wish I had known that maybe it would've saved me a lot of, um, self, self, um, grief and, and shame. Like self-hatred. Self-hatred. Yeah. talking about. Yeah. Because shame is such a big part of it and no one needs to shame the person suffering from substance use disorder. They feel enough shame themselves, and I talk a lot about that, that it's, one of the. Diseases out there, and I always say we treat diseases of the brain much different than diseases of the body. Uh, well, well, well, we shouldn't, but that's where the shame comes in. If you can't control something the way other people Mm-hmm. um, there must be something wrong with you. And it's, the truth is you're just set up for, for this kind of disease and Absolutely. What, what worked for you to get into recovery? What was the key for you? Because I know no two addictions are exactly the same, and may work for somebody doesn't work for somebody else. I think one thing. I got really lucky the timing was, was right. I know it was right around the Fentanyl era. Um, was was coming to to start, I was in Los Angeles. I think that played a big part of it. It it's this funny pattern where, you know, it, it's kind of like Las Vegas where, you know the places that have. A lot of substance use, substance use problems or drug problems. Also, conversely have the best recovery. Um, so I. was in, I would say the mecca of recovery in Southern California. It's no secret, right? Like if you, if you wanna go to rehab, you go to Betty Ford in Palm Springs, maybe you go to Florida. Karen treatment centers in Pennsylvania. There are a few places in our country that have always been places where people go to. Get better. Like San Diego, Los Angeles, a lot of people moved there from the Midwest for the air and, kind of the, the temperature. And it always has been a place for people to come and recover for not just addiction, but all sorts of issues. So when I sought recovery, you know, I was 26 years old and, um, I think I was in just. An amazing place where the resources were abundant. You know, I went to all sorts of recovery meetings. I, I had therapy sessions. People were, um, I had almost, I really had no insurance, no money, no, no chance to go to rehab. But people were helping me, professional people were helping me, um, because of this community of people that were in recovery and, and wanted me to do better. So I just had so many RESO resources at my disposal that looking back, were. You know, I, I was so lucky to have them.'cause not everybody has access to those resources all over the country. Uh, so I do feel lucky, but I didn't plan it like that. It just so happened I was living in Los Angeles at the right time, time, and the right, right place. Yeah. And it's amazing to me what you've gone on to do with your life. Thank you. you know, the, the, you've studied the problem that you dealt with. And I just always talk about when I talk to audiences and I show all the young people that we've lost just in my area, Hmm. I always talk about the loss potential to the world. Yep. And I think about if you hadn't stopped when you stopped, if you had been. Like as your friends you saw die Mm-hmm. if you had been one of the statistics that we're talking about today, you wouldn't have gone on to do all the work that you're doing and to write the article that you Mm-hmm. I just think what a loss that would be to the world. I always talk about that because I want people to get away from these numbers. The numbers are important. It's important we talk about what they are, but these are people. Mm-hmm. you, it and others that you know should be here, uh, and that we're losing unnecessarily. Thank you for that. I am, I am very lucky to, to have the. Education and training that I have. I also feel like, you know, I'm looking right at you at the mic grieving out loud. And a lot of my work and my advocacy is essentially a part, partly that it is grieving out loud and, you know, taking my, my sadness about losing my friends. And, you know, there was a period of time where I lost a lot of opportunities because of my addiction. Um, you know, it's been a long time since then, but. Channeling that grief into action has been so powerful for me. And I think, um, I've been able to accomplish many things because of that power of not giving up, feeling responsible in some way to help other people suffering. And, you know, I've been able to do incredible things by channeling that grief. And, um, you know, I commend you for this podcast and other people listening and, and really saying, you know, the bad things that happened to us. We can channel that into beautiful, into beautiful things. I think that's a human thing, right? Like we all go through sorrows and struggles and it's, it's hard being a human. And if we could channel that into creating something beautiful, um, we can really change the world. And, and I've experienced that in my own life and, and yeah. Thank you. Right. Don't waste your suffering. Mm-hmm. your suffering, you know, use it to make the world a better place. I think that is something I think about often. I would encourage, not everybody can do it, but anybody who can, I would encourage them to do it. So if you could wave a magic wand Mm-hmm. and, and, uh, make people first of all care about this issue as, uh, the num, one of the number one issues out there, and I think they should. You and I both think they should. Mm-hmm. What would you like to see our society, our government, our politicians, people in the recovery communities do now? What do we need to be doing? A lot of different things. I'll start with the general. I think we need to focus additionally on long-term outcomes. I think a lot of our strategies, a lot of our um, programs are focused on short-term acute care, so getting people out of crisis situations. There's nobody in the world who believes more than me that, that, that's important, right? I believe getting people out of crisis is extremely important. There's a second story to that and it's what happens out of what happens when somebody is out of crisis, Right, Like, okay, so they're not at extreme risk of overdosing anymore. That's a huge win. What happens next? Oftentimes, we pat them on the back and say, okay, you have 30 days of sobriety and you know, I hope your life goes well. Check in if you want to. And we know that's not a winning strategy, so we need to start thinking about what happens in year one, year two, year three. Especially for young folks, right? Young folks, Are in an environment of exploration, identity formation, and unfortunately, drugs and alcohol, alcohol are a big part of that. So when you remove drugs and alcohol from a young person's life, it can be hard to assimilate. It can hard, it can be hard to, um, feel normal again. So we don't really have answers to those questions of what happens after the first year. We don't really focus on that. Most of our studies are one year long, if that six months usually. So I think. In a general sense, if we could start focusing on long-term outcomes up to five years, you know, 3, 4, 5 years, what happens at year four and five? Those are important questions that we're not really asking those questions, Right, because relapse can certainly happen at any time. if we okay? is is a expected part of the disease of addiction, Mm-hmm. need to be there for people and have safe avenues for people to. feel ashamed, not feel like a failure, and to regain their recovery or sobriety. And I think, you know, we follow, we have a post overdose response team where we follow people and we, when I say up to a year with our peer support specialists for people who survive an overdose and people are like, oh wow. A whole year. That's great. And I always think, often think as you just pointed out, but that's really not long enough. I mean, I really wish we, we should follow 'em longer, but we're not quite there Mm-hmm. a society to offer those kind of resources to people. Absolutely. And I think going back to the stable floor metaphor, you know, I think about it like ev like if you're playing, um. Water polo and there's a inflated ball on the water, and that floor is the water level and the overdose number is the ball. And we really have to push the ball under the water and keep it there. There's gonna be this pressure to continue to pop up. Fentanyl's such a dangerous pill or dangerous drug, more people are gonna be using it. There's gonna be new people who are always interested to see what the, um, to experiment with drugs, right? So we need policy that's going to push the floor down. Right. And it's a different strategy than not overdosing. You can make people not overdose and still be an addictive lifestyle. And those are two different strategies and I think we need to get to how do we remove people from the addictive lifestyle? How do we get them into treatment and recovery? Um, we're not really focusing on that as much. Anything else that you would like to see us do as a society? I think number one, we need to start thinking about addiction as not an individual problem, as a family problem, a society? problem. Um, we have an epidemic of loneliness, um, social connection. Um, a lot of people, you know, we know that having faith is one of the best predictors of not falling to substance use. And I think as a country we've lost that. Um, I think thinking about. How do we red redesign our culture not to be so surrounded about, surrounded with, um, seeking pleasure and, and, and more thinking about family and community, those kind of things that don't seem to, that don't necessarily seem like, um, a short term solution to the addiction epidemic are actually the long term solutions to the opioid epidemic. And we don't talk about that saying like. Having meals with your family and, and perhaps gonna church, or if not church, um, some spiritual community yoga or going out to nature, how those things in the long run can make a healthier society that's not so susceptible to addiction. And that's a different question, Right. Than saying we have somebody who's addicted to f. We don't want them to pass away. That's a different question than saying, well, maybe if we develop community centers and children won't want to, um, won't have the same desire to seek, um, substances. Right. Those are two different questions and I don't think we're asking the second question enough, but that's the true answer. Right. I've often heard that the antidote for addiction is connection, and that's what you're talking about here. Um, connections, deep bonds within community, knowing people care about Mm-hmm. and that's something that our society has lost is losing. I mean, I'm not sure how, how I wanna phrase that, but certainly we all feel it. We know that mental health. And substance use disorder go hand in hand in mental, the mental health of our young people is suffering. Suicide rates are up. They're all connected. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And that's something all of us listening to this podcast have the power to control, right? So we don't have to wait for the federal government to say, here's a million dollars. I'm gonna create a program and you're gonna do family bonding. Every single one of us has the power to. Have dinner with a neighbor, have someone who is lonely. Come over and be nice to them, and we can do that tomorrow, right? We don't need to wait for someone to save us as a society. We can do this every day. And if we do, our children will be safer. We'll be happier. We know this, right? We'll be happier, right? We all know that doing a little bit less work and being nicer to our neighbors is gonna make us happier. And over time, and this is the problem, over time, this leads to society. That has healthier people, happier people, and less likely to fall into drug addiction. Um, but it's hard work because it's not a one-time thing. It's a, it's a lifestyle that we all need to live and for people who are in recovery, right? So somebody who has a problem with substances and now they're in early recovery, you know, they need that support. They need connection, they need family, they need community. And if you can create that for them, that gives them, um, a better chance of success. Yeah, and you're planning to write another article. Yeah, so I'm thinking more about what are the policy issues or what are the policy implications of, of lowering the floor, um, as opposed to lowering overdose deaths And looking at, I. You know, over, over history, this, this cycle has repeated so many different times. Like I said, it started in the early 18 hundreds when morphine was invented, and then again in the mid 18 hundreds when the needle was invented. Right? The needle, when the needle first came on the scene, right? So going even back to that, um, so we've seen this over and over again and what seem, what, what ends up happening, you know, is that the drug overdose deaths continue to fall. Until the ones that are dying are the ones people don't care about anymore. Hmm. And we like to think that we watch these numbers and we want the numbers to go down and we're gonna keep fighting until that number is zero. But in my experience and my reading of history, that's not how, how it happens, you know, the numbers stop going down when the people that are dying don't have a voice. That's what happens. Um, and I don't want that to happen Exactly. and I don't want that to happen either. So we'll have to just keep working in our corners of the world here to try to prevent that from happening. And I can tell you 72,000 deaths a year is not acceptable. No, it's not. That it's fewer than 110,000, but still not acceptable and certainly not when it's your child, brother, your sister, your Mm-hmm. your aunt, your uncle, niece, nephew. it's really not acceptable. Right. And so I just appreciate, we're gonna share the article that was in stat, um, in our show notes so people can read it. And I encourage everyone to go read it. And I just really wanna thank you for sharing your personal story Of course. all the hard work that you're doing in this space. Thank you. It was really nice to meet you and, and thank you for the work that you're doing. I am, I'm a huge fan of it. I appreciate that. If you'd like to learn more about the work, my team and I are doing head over to the show notes. We've included a link to our website, Emily's Hope Charity. And while you're there, we'd also appreciate it if you take just a moment to rate and review this podcast on whatever app you're listening to it on, please share it with your friends and family. It truly makes a difference with the algorithm. Gets our podcast to more listeners and viewers. Together we can help raise awareness about the fentanyl crisis and reduce stigma surrounding substance use disorder so more people can get the help they need. Thank you for taking the time to learn about this important topic. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Berg, king and Kaylee Fitz.