If you haven't struggled with alcohol addiction yourself, chances are someone close to you has, according to the National Survey on drug use and health, about 30 million people in the United States are living with alcohol use disorder. It affects people from every background, including many who never imagined they would face substance use disorder. I remember being at my 21st birthday and people were, as they do, buying me shots and giving me free drinks and I was just uninterested in them. I was like sipping on a beer, trying not to get drunk, like truly drinking responsibly, I guess you could say. But after spending more time around people who drank frequently, today's guest on grieving out loud, Katie Lane says she slowly found herself falling into the trap of addiction. I literally remember thinking, well, if this kills me early, oh well, like, I'd rather drink than, um, you know, go a whole life, my whole life without drinking and be miserable because when I wasn't drinking, I was miserable. I was craving alcohol. I wanted to drink. But Katie was able to climb out of that dark place with the help of treatment and a medication that isn't often talked about. In this episode of Grieving Out Loud, she shares her story and how she sought help and what ultimately made the difference. In treatments, sometimes we can. Like make, like be punitive toward people and like make them feel less than human. Like, oh, you're an addict. Like, we need to tell you what to do. You're not in your right mind. And I find that if people are empowered to make their own decisions, like, and they see themselves have that control again over alcohol, it just, you know, builds their character, builds their confidence, um, lets them trust themselves again. Uh, Katie Lane is joining me now to share her personal story, her personal battle with alcohol use disorder and what helped her find recovery. And it's something we don't talk a lot about, but there are very effective medications out there that can help people with alcohol use disorder. So, uh, Katie, welcome to Grieving Out Loud. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. Truly honored to be here and talk about this topic. It's something I'm very passionate about because personally I've been impacted by alcohol use disorder, so thank you for allowing me to share this. Well, so many people are. I mean, if we have 49 million Americans suffering from substance use disorder, a great majority of those are alcohol, uh, using alcohol, and it's the legal substance. It's, it's everywhere we've had. Episodes on this podcast about how women are drinking more than ever. How, you know, alcohol is marketed and, and women are also suffering more than ever from liver disease. And it's just, it's such a big part of our culture. So if we could Yeah. with your story going back to when you started drinking. I think it's when a lot of people started drinking right. Yeah, I mean, so alcohol addiction runs in my family, definitely generationally back, um, many generations. Uh, and I started drinking at the age of about 15, you know, experimentally because there was always alcohol around 'cause my old family drank most everyone. And, um, at the time it did not become problematic. I would. Steal alcohol or sneak alcohol and drink and then wouldn't touch it for like months. It, it wasn't like hooked in me as an addiction from day one necessarily. Um, so I kind of experimented off and on throughout my like teenage years and then. When I hit 21, um, it was interesting for me, I, I didn't love getting drunk at that time. I remember being at my 21st birthday and people were, as they do, buying me shots and giving me free drinks and I was just uninterested in them. I was like sipping on a beer, trying not to get drunk, like truly drinking responsibly, I guess you could say. So that was where I was when I hit 21. Um, it wasn't like, oh great, I'm finally of legal age to like go out and get drunk. I just didn't really care for it. Um. But a big part of my story has to do with the people I was associating with. Um, shortly after I turned 21, I started dating a person who was a very, very heavy drinker. Um, people we surrounded ourselves with were as well. And so I kind of started to adapt that behavior myself. He wasn't forcing it on me, but it was like, oh yeah, actually, you know, this is fun. Having cocktails and being of the legal age. Really saw it as like something innocent and fun and perhaps just a phase I was gonna go through in my early twenties. It's what people my age are supposed to do. Um, so I started drinking a lot, drinking every day in fact, and binge drinking. And uh, honestly really having fun with it for the first few years, few years. And then I started to get a little more concerned about it when, a few years after I'd been drinking that way. Was like sitting there one day and I was like, I don't remember the last day I had gone without a drink. It had been more than a year. I'd been drinking every single day, drinking a lot, every day. And so that scared me a little bit and I was like, well, I'm just gonna take a seven day break. Maybe that will help. Um. And I was surprised at how difficult the break was. Uh, every day I wanted to drink. I was truly, you know, as they say, white knuckling it, forcing myself not to drink and just counting down the days until the break was over. Um, I made it the seven days, but by day eight I was back binge drinking again. Um, and that was really the first attempt of probably dozens of me trying to fix my alcohol issues. So you mentioned, you know, being so socially acceptable, you were with somebody who drank a lot, and what's the difference between a heavy drinker and someone who truly is an alcoholic or suffering from substance, you know, alcohol use disorder. Yeah. Um, it, it's a spectrum. So in the, you know, kind of the medical community, they now use the term alcohol use disorder, which I personally prefer because I myself, like I, I knew the term alcoholic. I was like, I probably am an alcoholic. But honestly, that label didn't help me. It, full of stigma. That label is full of stigma. And I say it because that's what everybody knows, right? So when I yes. it, and then I, and I preface it also by saying alcohol use disorder. I know that's the preferred thing to say, but there is a lot of stigma. My, my grandfather was an alcoholic. He would call Yeah. and he started, uh, a chapter of AA back in the day before anybody wow. even talking about these things, right? Um, and had sponsored so many people. Um, I learned a lot about Yeah. up. About alcoholism itself. Yeah. Yeah. And some people find the label helpful. Um, I sometimes, 'cause I talk about this in videos a lot, I sometimes people make fun of me for using the term alcohol use disorder.'cause they're like, one lady was like, are you Webster's Dictionary? And I'm like, it's literally in Webster's Dictionary. I'm not making this term up. Um, but all this to say, what I like about alcohol use disorder is it exists on us. Spectrum, like on the diagnostic DSM five criteria of mild, moderate to severe. So you ask what's the difference between a heavy drinker and an alcoholic? You know, I think clinically there may be a, you know, uh, official definition where somebody who maybe is, you know, an alcoholic is physically dependent on alcohol, meaning if they stop drinking they will experience withdrawal. But what I've seen is even those who are heavy drinkers. That's really, I mean, if you look at the definition of it, our kind of, uh, low risk drinking levels are no more than two drinks a day for men and one for women, and 14 a week for men, and, uh, seven a week for women. So as you, um, increase that amount, it leads into heavier. Drinking. And again, there's a spectrum. Um, but what I've learned working with people and with myself is like when we think of alcohol withdrawal, we think of this person like having seizures, getting in the hospital, like life or death scenario. But we can experience alcohol withdrawal just by anxiety or irritability or a little bit sweaty the next morning. And so, um, that's kind of my, um, I guess experience with the different. Spectrums of alcohol use disorder. And again, the term alcoholic isn't super specific. And so I work with people. They might be drinking a bottle of wine a day and they consider themselves an alcoholic and someone does that and they're like, no, I'm, I'm fine. I'm in control. It's only a bottle. Um, so while there is maybe a clinical or medical definition, um, it exists on a spectrum and it's also, you know, I, I guess the, the self-defined what people kind of feel about their own personal drinking habits. In her mid twenties. Katie says she went seven days without drinking, but then on the eighth day she couldn't help but pick up a glass of alcohol again. She continued binge drinking every night and then started to drink during the day. I kind of had different career paths throughout my drinking career. Um, there was a period of time where I was self-employed and I could start drinking on my lunch break or, um, on the weekends I would day drink or start first thing in the morning. Um, so. And then as I progressed, like right before I went on the treatment, um, that I ended up using, I was like sneaking drinks on my lunch break and things like that. But I, I never like got fired for my drinking. It never was something that, um, was obvious to my employers. But a little like side note, I, when I finally started on my treatment and I was telling coworkers about it, one of my coworkers was like, I was wondering if I smelled alcohol on you one day. And I was like. Oh, that's embarrassing. So it had kind of gotten to that, um, place, because most people when they're drinking like that, think others don't know. Right? I right. nobody knew what you were doing. I had a whole ritual hiding it, you know, gum perfume, sneaking it, drinking, uh, like vodka with mixed drinks. So it wouldn't seem obvious, but, you know, now that I don't drink, I can smell even if someone's had just a couple sips of alcohol. So it's probably way more, yeah, obvious than I thought. Yeah. So what made you decide to make a change then? Was there something that happened that you thought, gosh, I have to do something about this? This isn't, I mean, were you having any health issues? Were any, Hmm. issues? Yeah, there were becoming, uh, more and more, I was experiencing more and more consequences as a result of my drinking. I, uh, hate to admit it, but I drank and drove a lot. Um, like, not even just like around town, but literally I'd go to a bar and, um, I specifically remember one day. Getting at the San Francisco airport. There's, I was, um, there was a bar restaurant across the street and I was like, I'm gonna go have a glass of wine and some pizza. I ended up having a whole bottle and drove home on the freeway, a bottle of wine, drove home on the freeway, like completely intoxicated, like a five lane freeway. And I, I just, I look back on that moment and it just kind of is one of those memories of many that, uh, makes me feel, uh, ashamed and also just feeling like I was really lucky to not have something bad happen. Um. But I did drink and drive a lot. I got pulled over one time when I was really intoxicated. Certainly should have gotten a DUI, but by the grace of God, some reason I did not, the cop didn't even ask if I had been drinking, even though it was like nine o'clock at night. Um, I wound up in the hospital with bilateral pulmonary embolism, which is blood clots in both my lungs and the doctor. I, I do have a, a. Clotting disorder like in my genes. But the doctor did say that heavy drinking is a contributing factor to that. Um, and just consequences piling up where I would black out and wind up places I didn't wanna be, or say things I didn't wanna say. Um, so there were definitely more consequences and. From that seven day break, the first break that I took, that was like the moment I recognized I had a problem and I was trying a lot of different things to quit and I would, I would literally quit like and mean it and be like, that's it. I'm done. And then I would start again, you know, a week later, a month later, several months later. Um, and I now really think that has to do with the fact that I. I was craving alcohol, and that's something I didn't understand about alcohol use disorder and the nature of it and how it resides in the brain. It's a, a learned behavior in the brain. And once we have the addiction, when we stop, we can actually crave it more. So I would quit and feel super motivated and then I'd be like, oh my gosh, I just wanna drink. I just wanna drink like this. Obsessive thinking about drinking to where I would, um, go back to it again. So. From that first seven day break, I, I knew it was an issue and I wanted to get under control, but I could not stay sober long-term. I could make it periods of time, but I always relapse and I couldn't control my drinking either. I'd try to keep it to two and most of the time would fail at that. So I felt like I was really stuck. Um, and final thing I'll say is because I was addicted to alcohol, um. You know, I really see it now. It's not a logical issue. So I literally remember thinking, well, if this kills me early, oh well, like, I'd rather drink than, um, you know, go a whole life, my whole life without drinking and be miserable because when I wasn't drinking, I was miserable. I was craving alcohol. I wanted to drink. Um, so yeah, I was, it was in a dark place. And I think so many people, once they realize that they have a problem or they're starting to be consequences, like you talked about, just the, the idea of into recovery, of going without alcohol, of being sober, so to speak, is just so daunting and overwhelming because it's really hard to do on your own. You talk about white knuckling it, you know, it's just, and it doesn't have to be that way. Yeah, I mean if you look at statistics, there's one research paper I reference a lot where it says that 80% or more of people who go into inpatient treatment for alcohol addiction will relapse within six months. Um, so most people who are doing an inpatient rehab, 80% of them or more are gonna relapse at least one time. So. You're exactly right. It's, it's very hard to stay sober. And I think when somebody doesn't understand the mental insanity of an alcohol addiction, it's easy to, from the outside say, well, just quit drinking. If you have a problem, just quit. Even. I would tell myself that I'd wake up hungover, regretful, and be like, okay, just quit. Like, what do you doing? But again. It's not a logical issue with the part of the brain impacts. It's really this primitive, overwhelming urge to use a substance that overrides our logic and reason, which is why it's so hard to quit and stay sober long term. So what ultimately did you do? Yeah, and this is like the miracle of this treatment is, um, it works in the brain. So staying sober or reducing my drinking, it's just a night and day difference from the kind of typical, okay, I'm gonna quit and just. Take it a day at a time and count my sober days and white knuckle it. So ultimately what I did is a treatment that involves the medication naltrexone, um, which, um, it's actually been approved for alcohol by the FDA since 1994. It's a generic medicine. It's not addictive, it's cheap. Um, however, even though it's been around for so long and has shown to be very effective for treating alcohol addiction, most people haven't heard of it. Um, and. Why is that? I mean, 'cause I, I, I just wanna know like why we talk about, uh, medications for opioid use disorder now all the time. And there are medications for alcohol use disorder such as naltrexone. There are a few others out there as well. Why aren't we hearing about it more? Why isn't it being used more? Because we had a, scholarship recipient of our treatment scholarships at Emily's Hope, and she went through treatment, was doing great, had relapsed. And I, she wanted to go back in and we were gonna help her again. And I said, you know, there are medications for you Yeah. I think you need to use medications. And she didn't know anything about it, Yeah. why don't people know about it? Yeah. You know, I think there's a few different reasons. Um, number one, you know, you mentioned the medications for opiates. Like with naltrexone, because it's a generic drug, there's no commercials about it. There's no pharmaceutical company knocking down Yeah. that. I think that's a big one. So there's no incentive for anybody to really promote it. That's number one. Our current treatment system is really. For the most part, set up to get person inpatient, detox them, get them off. Alcohol is step one, and then they kind of enter the recovery process. Whereas this treatment that I use specifically, oftentimes it doesn't require a detox. People start the treatment while they're still drinking, which I know sounds. Crazy talk, but we can talk more about why the treatment works in that way. And that's not the only way people use Naltrexone for alcohol, but that's the way I used it and a lot of people do. Um, we start the treatment while we're still drinking. It can be done from home. Technically any doctor can prescribe Naltrexone. Um, but again, a lot of doctors just don't know about it, so maybe they won't prescribe it. Um, but the treatment can be done from home. You start it while you're still drinking. It doesn't require abstinence is kind of the first step. It doesn't even necessarily require a detox because through the treatment you gradually reduce your drinking over time. So that is kind of a form of, of detox, if you will. Um, and so those are the kind of primary reasons why it's not more well known. There's other kind of speculation around it, but it's just, it, it seems like. You know, a lot of the, I've gone to conferences trying to promote this treatment and talk to addiction specialists, and I always remember one addiction specialist here in California. I was like, naltrexone, it's so effective. Like talking to him about how it changed my life. And he is like, oh yeah, we've known about that since the eighties. We just believe abstinence is best. So I think that bias as well, that like, we're not even open to harm reduction. You just need to quit right away. Keeps, um, this treatment from being embraced, uh, Are you ready to protect the next generation from the dangers of substance use? Emily's Hope has created a comprehensive K through 12 substance use prevention curriculum designed to educate, empower, and equip students with the tools they need to make healthy choices are age appropriate lessons, starting kindergarten and build through high school using science, real stories and interactive learning to help kids understand their bodies, brains, and risk of drug use. We're already reaching thousands of students across multiple states, and we're just getting started. Visit emily's hope edu.org to learn more and share our curriculum with your school administrators and counselors. At Emily's Hope, we believe prevention begins with education. Let's work together to keep our kids safe. fully. find out about it? I was always doing research online for alternatives.'cause I was just, I was like, there has to be something out there. So one morning I was searching on YouTube because I would always listen to like, success stories of people who got sober and hope that would inspire me to get sober myself. Um, and I came across a TEDx talk, which is still on YouTube, has like over 5 million views now. Um, called How I Overcame Alcoholism by Claudia Christian. And she talked about naltrexone and the treatment, the Sinclair method. And the way she spoke about her addiction and suffering with it and what this treatment did to heal her. It was just like, as if she was like inside me and, and speaking to me. So. I stumbled upon it through that YouTube video, and at that time there wasn't a lot of information about it. I was like trying to research it outside of that. And there just, that was in 2017, there wasn't a 10 out there. There's, there's a lot more now. I've put out a ton of videos other people have, um, but still a lot of people stumble upon it. They're like, oh, I saw your video on TikTok and I learned about it. It's not like, you know, you go to your doctor and they recommend it because it's still so underutilized and unknown. What is the Sinclair method? So the Sinclair Method, it's named after Dr. David Sinclair, who discovered this specific protocol in the nineties. And it's really simple and it involves taking Naltrexone about an hour before drinking. So naltrexone is an opiate blocker medication, and so when it's taken before drinking, it's. Sits on receptors in the brain that would otherwise be getting this huge flood of endorphin and reward from alcohol. And I didn't know it when I started the treatment. I didn't understand this, but I think it's important for people to know that the reason alcohol is addictive, like in the simplest uh, definition, is because it's very rewarding for the brain and those of us hit. Yeah, it's the dopamine hit right. And if we do it intermittently and in small amounts, it's not a huge deal. But when we start to do it repetitively, the brain gets, uh, used to that reward from the alcohol. And when we take that away, the brain is, it's already changed. It's looking for that reward from alcohol'cause it's so used to it. And so it starts to look for it. And I now know, that's why when I quit drinking, my craving would just go through the roof.'cause it's like, oh, I'm not getting the reward. Give me the alcohol, and I was sober six months, one time before the treatment. That was the longest I made it ever kind of white knuckled, and I was still craving alcohol every day, and I was fearing a relapse every day. So with this protocol, naltrexone is taken before drinking and it sits on receptors. And so your brain is not getting the same level of reward it once did from the alcohol. It doesn't make you sick like Antabuse. It doesn't make it this terrible experience. It just makes it. my cousin found success in Antabuse. So that Okay. that he had struggled with alcohol for alcohol use disorder for a really long time. But if he were, were to use it would make him sit. Yes. I think can be another effective thing. We could talk a little bit more about that, but I want, I just wanna inject that in there because that's another. Yeah. Medication you don't always hear about, but let's get back to the, the Naltrexone, and so you're taking it an hour before you drink? Yes. And I, yeah, I'm glad you mentioned Anabuse.'cause sometimes people think this is the same thing and they're like, oh, if you drink on that, it makes you really sick. And I'm like, this isn't anabuse. It's different. But yes, anabuse is something that helps people too. So, um, you drink on the Naltrexone or I'll just talk about my experience. I drink on the Naltrexone and at that time when I started the protocol, I was. Drinking seven days a week. Um, I would usually drink at least a bottle of wine, oftentimes two. Or I would have whiskey stashed away in my cabinet and kind of sneak it when my husband wasn't looking. He knew I drank, but he didn't know how bad it was 'cause I hid it a lot from him because he's has no issue with alcohol. Um. So I started it as a daily really heavy binge drinker. Um, and the first couple times on the medication I could tell something was different. I was drinking more slowly. Um, it didn't taste the same, and I was just not as eager to chase that buzz to like, oh my gosh, I need to pour the next drink, the next drink. Like it, it slowed me down a little bit. And then in the first week on the treatment, I had an alcohol free day, which was very unusual for me unless I was like deathly hung over in bed. One day without drinking during the week was. Pretty much unheard of. But I remember this day I was like, this is so strange. I just don't really feel like drinking today, which I always felt like drinking. So that was really, um, encouraging for me. And a sign, something was changing. I had that one alcohol free day and then went back to drinking again. But as I progressed through the treatment week by week and month by month. I could see changes, um, from the moment I started the protocol. I never blacked out again. Um, some nights I would still drink a lot, like a bottle, a bottle and a half of wine, but I never got to the point of blacking out again. Um, I was having more and more alcohol free days, so I started with one per week, and then about a month later it built to two, and then the following month, three days per week, not drinking. And then when I was drinking, um, I could just tell. It felt like I was regaining my control again to where I could have two glasses of wine and the thought of having a third was a bit repulsive. I'd be like, no, it doesn't sound good. I'm, I'm satisfied with that. Um, so I was on this protocol in total for a year. Um, I started it never intending to quit drinking because what's unique about this treatment as well is it really does heal the brain. And so somebody, if they want to, they can keep alcohol in their life. And a lot of people do like, oh, I wanna have a glass of wine a week, or champagne at a wedding, and. Even if they had a problem before they can get to this controlled place with this treatment. So that was always my goal, like I'm gonna be a normal drinker. Um, but after about a year on the protocol, um, I'd gotten down to drinking like one glass of wine once a month. That was it. Like my husband and I would go to dinner and I'd get a glass of wine with it. Um. I just didn't wanna drink more than that honestly. Uh, and then I ended up going four months without drinking. I wasn't trying to not drink, I just wasn't drinking. I was like, I just don't feel like drinking. This is crazy. Um, and after four months of not drinking, um, I ended up saying, well, maybe I am gonna kind of stay alcohol free. And that was at the end of, uh, like September, 2018 and I haven't drank since then. Um. I, one thing that's neat about this treatment is if I wanted to drink tomorrow, I can. I would just follow the protocol. I would take Naltrexone before and I'd probably have a glass of champagne, which for me, it makes it easier knowing that I can drink if I want to. It's not like a forbidden fruit, but I just genuinely just don't have the desire anymore. So it's been really easy and I, and I don't take Naltrexone anymore either.'cause I was only taking it. that's what I was going to ask. Is naltrexone something?'cause you hear now like about the GLP ones and I think we're talking about some of the same. Of the brain if Yeah. from a food addiction or emotional eating, and there have been, they've shown some promise for treating addiction too, these GLP ones. Yeah. pretty much have to resign that you're gonna be on 'em for life. So with naltrexone, do you have to be on it for life? No. Um, and that's a really cool thing about this protocol. So I, I was only taking the medication before drinking. That's the Sinclair method. You take Naltrexone, you wait an hour and you drink. That's like the basic protocol. Of course. There's more to it than just a pill. Like I was drinking every day for 10 years. There was a lot I had to do to change habits and coping skills and work through stuff, of course. But sometimes people think, oh, your A pill's gonna fix everything. No pill's not gonna fix everything. But it heals the brain, which gives you the foundation to be able to heal everything else so you're not just like obsessing on alcohol every day. Um, but. Yeah, with this treatment, so the medication was only taken before drinking. So the longer I was on it, the less I was taking the medication. Like by the end I was taking it once a month with my glass of wine. Um, and again, I ended up quitting drinking. And something I was concerned about is like, is the, are these results gonna be permanent? Like, are the cravings gonna come back? And they never. They've never come back. It, it feels like my brain is back to the place it was in before I ever had an alcohol addiction. I'm not triggered if my husband drinks wine or alcohol. He doesn't have a problem if he's drinking. I could care less. Like if people are drinking around me, I just don't desire it. I feel completely free of the addiction to alcohol. Yeah. that freedom and I think so many people are, looking for that kind of freedom Yeah. So did you do any kind of behavioral therapy? Did you do any kind of faith-based program alongside of this? I. Um, I started seeing a therapist a couple months in. So to be honest, when I started the treatment I was kind of, I had a lot of shame around it looking back and I was kind of, of this mindset, well, like I just drink too much. This pill's gonna help me drink less. Like, let me just figure this out on my own. Like, I didn't even tell anyone I was starting the protocol'cause they'd kind of seen me struggle and try to quit and I just didn't want another, like, failed treatment. Kind of on my list of things I've tried, um. So I started it on my own and then a couple months in I realized that drinking was, you know, touching so many parts of my life that just taking a pill alone wasn't gonna help me. You know, learn new coping skills or get more self-confidence or understand what was driving the drinking and things like that. So I, I started. Seeing a therapist, which was really, really helpful.'cause at that time, now today, there's Sinclair Method coaches who are certified and they specialize in the treatment. There's more support. But 20 17, 20 18, there really wasn't anything specializing in this, this treatment. Um, and so I got support in that way. I had to make a lot of lifestyle changes because my life was built from a foundation of a daily drinker for 10 years. So just, you know, new job, new friends, um, new ways of spending my time and things like that. And then, um. I, at that time I was not. Today I, I'm, I identify as a Christian, I follow Jesus. But back then I was not, I became a believer after my, uh, treatment in 2020, but I was quote unquote spiritual. So I was doing different retreats and working on like, spiritual aspects of my, my life. That was something that always interested me as well. Um, and I think that was helpful for sure. Have you lost a loved one to overdose or fentanyl poisoning? I'd like to invite you to share their story on our new Emily's Hope memorial website called More Than Just a Number. They were our children, siblings, cousins, husbands, wives, aunts, uncles, and friends. So much more than just a number. You can submit a memorial today on more than just a number.org. Let's talk about faith-based treatments for a minute, and even Alcoholics Anonymous, you know, really, you know, you turn over your power to a higher power, right? God or the universe or whatever. You see it and, and there's a big push right now, especially among this current administration, which is claiming that. treatment is the most effective treatment out there, Hmm. have so many medications that are available for opioid use disorder, for alcohol use disorder, and even off-label medications for stimulant use disorder. It seems to me like while could play an important role, it really depends on the person. We should use scientific methods that we have available and those should be the first thing you hear about. Like You mentioned you didn't really hear about Naltrexone, that you kind of had to seek it out and these things are just. Not maybe being talked about all the time, even among medical professionals, addiction medicine professionals, hopefully more now. But how do you feel about that? That idea that we should be looking at faith-based programs first before we look at the scientific programs that include medications. Yeah, that's such a good question. And, okay, so AA really is a faith-based program. I just was talking to a gal who runs a podcast who she left AA and she's like questioning what it all was.'cause she's not a person of faith or religion. And she, her perspective is that this is like a religious organization kind of masquerading as like treatment. And that's fine for some people. Um, but in my view as somebody who. Came to faith after I got well from my alcohol addiction. I don't think forcing faith on people is helpful. Like I know for me when someone would try to force it on me, I would run the other way. I think it's a very personal journey that perhaps we pursue on our own. Um. So I think we do have a faith-based treatment program that is AA and that's incorporated into all the treatment programs, almost all of them across the country. And for some people it's helpful for others. It's not like the stats are hard to show, but I mean, it's estimated to have a success rate that's. 10% or less from, from what I've read. So that exists. We already have a faith-based treatment and it's helpful for some people. But yes, medications have been incredibly underutilized. I think I read a, an article that said, and I, I'm not sure if it was, I think it was two to 4%. So people who are admitted to the hospital for alcohol problems, only two to 4% of them are even offered a medication. So. Incredibly underutilized, and they're not mutually exclusive. You don't need to have faith over here and medication over here. They can be together combined. And if someone doesn't want any faith related support, I don't think we should force it on them. Um, especially with this treatment, the Sinclair method. A lot of people are drawn to it who are atheists and they don't have a view of a God or anything like that, and they're like, I love there that they're, this is science based. It's not, you know, forcing me to kind of believe in a higher power that I don't necessarily believe in. And this is something, you know, coming from somebody who does believe in God, um, I think treatment should really meet people where they are at and give them the ability to choose, you know, what path they want to take rather than. Forcing people down one path. I've just, I've worked with so many people who spent years or decades in AA staying successful, then relapsing, then success and relapsing and not really getting that freedom or getting better. Um, and had they known about Naltrexone and the Sinclair method years earlier, they could have, you know, gotten treatment much sooner instead of trying to force them to do this treatment that just isn't working for them. Right. what about the idea of complete abstinence?'cause you mentioned when you started down this road and you have been abstinent now for nearly eight years or eight years, and but that wasn't your original intentions. And I think that we do about these things in terms of black and white. Like you're either problem drinker. you don't drink at all. And, and we know there's a lot of social drinkers, you know, who are okay, who don't suffer from substance use disorder or alcohol use disorder. But those who do, can you drink? I mean, that something that we just don't wanna accept in this society that that's even possible? Yeah. Um, and I know this is quite taboo because a lot of, you know, the language around treatment for almost a hundred years. Is that like that doctor I meant, you know, he says abstinence is best. Um, and for some people it is, but. You know, with tools like Naltrexone and the Sinclair Method, moderate drinking, even for those who had severe alcohol addiction, moderate drinking becomes a possibility over time through this treatment, I am living proof. I've worked with probably thousands of people by now since 2018 through this treatment, seen success stories and. Most people do really well with this protocol, and so if we hold that view of like black and white, you're either an alcoholic or you're not, or you're drinking, uh, normally, or, or a alcoholically or you're not drinking at all. It can be kind of dangerous because. I work with a lot of people. Um, like the CDC says one in three Americans drinks excessively, so maybe they're not an alcoholic or severe alcohol use disorder yet, but typically it's progressive. It kind of leads there. And I work with a lot of people who would never go to aa, they would never go to treatment. They're drinking maybe a bottle of wine a day, but they're totally functional. But they, they go on the Sinclair method because they do wanna cut back. They do wanna have alcohol free time, but. They are not gonna quit drinking. They don't wanna quit drinking. And one of the therapists I work with, she says something very simple that I think is accurate. She says, drinking isn't the problem. Excessive drinking is the problem. And so with treatments like the Sinclair Method, it does make control over alcohol possible. And I know that's hard to believe. Um. If people don't understand the neuroscience of alcohol addiction and the neuroscience of why and how this treatment works, um, I couldn't moderate my drinking before this treatment. I did not believe moderation was possible, but when you work to heal the root, which is in the brain. Drinking becomes possible. So I think it, it is something that we should embrace more and it it really meets people where they're at. If someone doesn't wanna quit drinking, they can't imagine going sober, which is where a lot of us are at, 'cause we're addicted to alcohol. If we can start them on treatment by saying, Hey, you don't have to quit, just start using this medication beforehand, and that's gonna start the healing work and. Me. A lot of people are in that place where they're like, I never imagined quitting drinking, but now I drink like once a year, or I did quit drinking. It just our goals evolve and change as the brain heals. Right. And it's much better to have somebody be a moderate drinker. I mean, it's much better for their health, much Yeah. much better for their lives, for everything. Um, it doesn't have to be, um, all or nothing. Yeah. Um, in every case, although like you said, for in your case, you got to the point where you're like, I don't, I don't need this in my life. I don't want it. Don't need Yeah. And, um, but I think there's just so much in society that revolves around drinking. I mean, every celebratory occasion, um, Yeah. out to eat even. I mean, there's just so much. And as a social drinker myself who can have a glass of wine and, and walk away or have one glass a week or Yeah. a month or whatever, it's, you know, I'm, I'm lucky that I'm able to do that and not. Um, that's not everybody. And so if Yeah. to that point, seems like you can save a lot in terms of, health problems down the road and what that costs Yeah. systems and society and, and, um, eventually if you're a heavy drinker, alcohol is going to kill you. Yeah. Yeah. It takes a toll on the health in many ways. And yeah, I mean, you know, had I started the Sinclair method and you know, my prescribing doctor said, okay, you need to quit drinking. If they had enforced that goal on me. Honestly, I don't know if I would've done as well. Of course I'll never know. But the fact that I was able to set my goals and take it step by step, gradually reduce, gradually have the alcohol free days, it like allowed me to change my life and my habits alongside that gradual reduction. Um, so for me that was helpful knowing we're not, we're not forcing you to quit. Just start, you know, the treatment you can reduce. And then I ended up quitting on my own anyway. So, um, yeah, I think. In treatments, sometimes we can. Like make, like be punitive toward people and like make them feel less than human. Like, oh, you're an addict. Like, we need to tell you what to do. You're not in your right mind. And I find that if people are empowered to make their own decisions, like, and they see themselves have that control again over alcohol, it just, you know, builds their character, builds their confidence, um, lets them trust themselves again. Um, they're not being like, you know, made to feel less than human, um, through this treatment. And now you mentioned you're teaching this treatment to a lot of other people. Yes. Um, so I, when I started the protocol in 2017, there wasn't much information out there and so I was hungry for personal stories, uh, of people who've done the treatment and there just wasn't any out there. There was like a random blog I found, um, that I don't even think exists anymore today. But, so I started documenting my journey through video, like after a month. About after I started the protocol just to share like, Hey, I'm a real person. This is working for me. And over the years, that led into mentoring people, then coaching people and hosting groups. And then ultimately now I run, um, a program, it's called Thrive Alcohol Recovery. That, uh, is spec, we specialized specifically in this Sinclair Method protocol and help people with, you know, the ha the habit change, lifestyle behavior change side of it. Um, and you know, in addition to the medication. So is this available to anybody across the country that can go to your website and, um, doesn't matter where you live or do you, do you talk to people via Zoom and that kind of thing? Yeah, it is. It's, it's actually we have people from around the world. We refer to doctors only in the us so we don't have doctors we work with in other countries, but we have doctors in all 50 states that specialize in the treatment and prescribe, uh, naltrexone. And then, yeah, the program, it's all online. So, um, anyone can join if they're on Naltrexone, in the Sinclair method to get. The support and community side of it. And what kind of success rate are you seeing? So the Sinclair Method has a clinically proven 78% success rate, and I would say that's about what we see as well. It's, yeah, it's proven to be very successful for most people. Um. You know, it doesn't have a hundred percent success rate. And I think some of the reasons it doesn't work for people is, number one, if they struggle with compliance with the medication. That's truly, it's the golden rule. It's foundational for success. Um, and I think like anything, going back to that desire. To change has a lot to do with it. Um, you know, if their wife wants them to start the treatment and they don't really wanna do it, they're only gonna see so much success. But even if someone isn't super motivated, oftentimes they'll see some changes starting on Naltrexone. Um. But yeah, it's, it's, it's incredibly hopeful. Like a lot of people say they have hope for the first time because it's not some like woowoo snake oil thing that I've made up. There's decades of research into it, and the results show it works for most people. So the one thing I'll say is. Time is your friend with this treatment. If someone's listening and they're doing this with their doctor or whomever, sometimes people start an naltrexone and even doctors have this expectation like, oh, you're not seeing results in a couple months. Okay, let's try something else. For this treatment, it really needs time to work the results build over time. As I mentioned, I was on it for a year. I would say I felt the place of total freedom from my drinking, even though I was still drinking. I had total control and no craving after about eight months on the protocol, so it was. Building kind of like weight loss, how it's just this gradual change little by little. So give it time to work. That's another reason I see it doesn't work because they just give up too soon. Okay, so give it time. I think that could appeal to a lot of people the idea that, oh, I just don't have to stop drinking entirely. Maybe I can just become a social drinker. Yeah. then eventually, maybe they won't wanna drink at all like you, but what, whatever it is, it's, it's better than the alternative of being a heavy drinker or drinking. In ways that are so harmful to Yeah. to everyone around you. Um, so people, we'll put a link to your website in our show notes. If people are interested in learning more. Is it. It is not. Um, so Naltrexone is generic. There are private pharmacies online that prescribe and it, uh, it requires out-of-pocket costs. But for like a month's supply, it's around a hundred dollars. But if the cheapest way for someone to get it is if they can go to their primary care doctor and ask for it, it can be free. Um, without insurance it may be 20 or $30 a month. Um, the one thing I'll say, if you go to your doctor and ask for naltrexone. If they don't prescribe it to you or they're unwilling, that's normal. It happens often, again, back to their doctors just not knowing about it or not feeling comfortable. If they're your primary care, maybe they don't feel comfortable treating addiction, so they're like, ah, go somewhere else. So, um, there are a lot of online providers that do it through telemedicine now. Um, but yeah, even your primary doctor can prescribe it, and sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. But yeah, naltrexone itself is cheap. sounds like, um, we need some Okay. for physicians out there, um, to learn more about this and other medications for substance use disorder too. We do. Yeah.'cause doctors are generally asking people about their drinking and so if, if this is something they can have in their back pocket, like, oh, there's a medicine that can help you, you know, drink less. Um, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well, fantastic. Well, thank you so much for sharing your personal story with me, and thank you for the work that you're doing to help others. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me on. It was really nice to chat with you. And thank you for listening to this episode of Grieving Out Loud. If you'd like to learn more information about Katie's program, thrive Alcohol Recovery, just head to the show notes. We've shared a link there. You can also find other links to grieving out loud episodes. We thought that you may find helpful. And you can check out hundreds of previous conversations anytime on our website, Emily's Hope Charity. I wanna thank you again for listening. Until next time. Wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Weinberg, king and Kaylee Fitz.