One struggled with his mental health growing up, the other battled addiction. But Greg Vost and Michael Nolan have discovered that despite different diagnoses, many of their underlying struggles were the same. With my dad's job, we moved around a lot and I felt like I had to get into friend groups relatively quickly. Um, and to be as, uh, expressive and, um, extroverted as I was, was kind of seen as like. Troublesome or annoying, and it bothered people. And so then it felt like, okay, I need to, uh, change the way that I am to fit into these groups. And then when I found substances, it was like, uh, here's the solution to help me not care about what other people think about me. I struggled a lot with, uh, worthiness and self-esteem issues, depression and anxiety. I was bullied and, and picked on. And yet, like, it was these maybe smaller moments where like I would get a look that I was so embarrassing, just my existence, embarrassed somebody else. That created so much tension, uh, within myself that, um, those were the moments where I, I retreated inward and said I can't be myself any longer, but after years of work, the two have not only found recovery and stronger mental health, they've opened a treatment center together in Silicon Valley, blending their personal experience with professional expertise and insights drawn from ancient wisdom. We're in Silicon Valley and so it's. Uh, people are compensating hugely by their perform, uh, performative nature and all the ways in which they're, um, Hmm. maybe exceeding outwardly in life, but still yet struggling inward. And so the issue E, even if you're not struggling with, uh, substance use, the issue of codependence. There's a lot of work to do in that, and that's a really powerful arena. And it's, it's also a little more mysterious because it's not as concretized as a substance. Today's conversation is about recovery, but not just sobriety. It's about what comes after survival, how people heal, reconnect with themselves, and build a life that actually feels whole. My guests today are Greg Vorst and Michael Nolan, co-founders of Embodied Recovery, a treatment center in Silicon Valley that approaches addiction and mental health through both science and the soul. work blends traditional therapy and a 12 step recovery with ancient wisdom and embodied practices designed to help people regulate their nervous systems and process trauma, as well as reconnect with their inner wisdom. really wanna thank both of you for joining me today on the podcast. I, I'd like to by talking a little bit about. Each of your backgrounds and how you join together to form this treatment that you're offering to people. You sure? Yeah. We'd be happy. That intro was solid. You're good at this. That was fantastic. Yeah, Uh, just a few years of practice. That's all. That's all. that was great. Um, you wanna start? Sure, sure. I can dive in. Um. my entry into this world was not, uh, by virtue of substance use or any struggle, uh, with substance use. But I, um, I struggled a lot with, uh, worthiness and self-esteem issues, depression and anxiety. So if I were to enter into our programming, I would've been somebody that was in the mental health track. Um, and, uh, I. I deeply sought, uh, spiritual solutions to the, the struggles that I was having. I was something, um, of like a, a spiritual addict in a sense, like I was seeking these highs and, um. And it was quite a, it was quite a profound journey, but my life looked like, uh, looked like I could have been involved in substance use. Like there was just a lot of wreckage and there were a lot of areas that needed to be tended to and cleaned up. Um, and thank God, I found, found my way into the recovery rooms and that's actually a really solid foundation for them being a therapist as well. It, it, it strikes me, and I wanna get to how you met Michael in just a second, but it strikes me, you know, we've heard the term alcoholic personality. I think we all know people who have, have what we would consider that who aren't using substances. And so it also makes me think of how mental health and substance use disorder. Almost always go hand in hand. Whether one causes the other or one is self-medicating, you know, using substances to self-medicate, uh, a mental health issue. That's, yeah, that's very accurate. I think it, a lot of times people see that as different in our treatment space. Um, we've really seen the way in which not only are they, um, they struggling with very similar issues, but finding different solutions. But, um, people who are struggling with mental health and addiction can really benefit from hearing each other. In fact, that was my journey. Um, I wandered into an AA room, even though I never struggled with drinking. And for the first time in my life I felt like, wow, I can hear somebody who's talking to my struggle. Uh, I wasn't struggling with alcoholism, but I could really hear in their shares, um, a lot of what was in my predicament. That's so interesting. I think because we like to other, the addict, Yeah. to say, you know, there's something wrong with them when all of us may be facing similar struggles to some people are using substances to cope with those struggles. And so Michael, I know that was the case for you. You struggled with opioid addiction as well as alcohol. Is that correct? Yeah, it was, uh, pretty much anything I could get my hands on. I found a way to, to turn that into a, a solution for myself. Uh, a self-destructive one for sure. But, um, you know, I guess just to, to a little bit about my background, I, I grew up and was, I felt very, uh, energetic, very open-hearted. Um, but with my dad's job, we moved around a lot and I felt like I had to get into friend groups relatively quickly. Um, and to be as, uh, expressive and, um, extroverted as I was, was kind of seen as like. Troublesome or annoying, and it bothered people. And so then it felt like, okay, I need to, uh, change the way that I am to fit into these groups. And then when I found substances, it was like, uh, here's the solution to help me not care about what other people think about me. And then I was able to kind of get into, um, the, the social circles that I was wanting to fit into. Um, and then it, it progressed relatively quickly. And, and then, you know, my, my substance use got to the point where I. Um, I was getting into trouble and got arrested three times in like a six month period and had to do treatment, otherwise I was gonna go to jail and this was all before I turned 21. Um, and so then. Uh, when I turned 21, I resentfully stayed sober on my 21st birthday, and then, uh, that resentment led me to having a drink one day with, uh, with my cousin at Chipotle. And the sky didn't fall and nothing terrible happened. And so I thought, uh, maybe I'm not an alcoholic. Maybe I can do this. Uh, and then, but that just, um, it was like, uh, I'll say sometimes that it, it kind of cracked the door open wide enough for me to see what I really wanted on the other side. Um, and so then I, I got back into smoking weed every day. And then it was back to looking for, for pills and harder drugs. And so, um, that was another maybe three year journey, uh, that, um, ended up with me in some really scary places where, you know, I, I finally got to a place where I saw that this was the life I was gonna continue living and, um, and was able to find a treatment center with the help of a bunch of people, uh, in Redwood City called the Sequoia Center. And at that point in my life, I was just willing to listen to what other people were suggesting, even though I didn't like it because the decisions that I was making for my life were clearly leading me to places that I didn't wanna go. And so when I would say, okay, I've done 30 days, uh, in treatment, I'm ready to go back to school, they'd say, no, you need to stay here for another four weeks. And I, you know, push back and say, I don't need to be here that long. I have to get back. I have a life and I have things to do. And, you know, the, the program owner would say like, you have no business being in school right now. Like, what in the world would make you think that you have, um, the, the, the clarity of mind to make a choice like that? You know, take our recommendations, do the things that we're telling you to do, and you'll get back to school when you're ready. And, and so it was a frustrating journey, but that, um, that was, you know, that that first three months was really pivotal and. Um, my, my early experiences in recovery and then I, I went back to school and started working as a counselor in different programs Michael has now been in recovery for 18 years, since August of 2007. He met Greg while they were both working at a recovery center. That company went belly up like three months after we met. And so, uh, that it was, um, I had moved up here, um, from LA at that time, so I really didn't know anybody, with the exception of Michael was in a new town. And, um. The last month and a half of our work there. We also didn't receive a paycheck, so we got close really quick. It's funny in thinking about it too, for someone that moved around so much and wanted to make friends quickly, you know, Greg moves to this area where he doesn't know anybody and is looking to make friends, and I'm like, no, I don't need any friends. You know, like, we're just coworkers and you know, you're doing a great job. But, um, no, he was just, he was great at what he did and, uh, was really engaging and passionate about SunDo and recovery and so. And there was something in that crisis. Where I think, um, both of us were taken on a journey in our own recovery where I think for me, I used to sort of hide in the shadows and let other people lead. And um, and there was just something about the circumstance that we were in. We were caring for a lot of people and supporting them in their recovery. And the place was falling down around us. And, um, it required somebody to step into a more of an adult role. And what we were noticing in a lot of the treatment centers that we worked for, even though Mike and I had received some really outstanding mentorship and support in the, in our earlier years at that point, we were, um, having this experience of working for leadership that were themselves struggling with addiction. So that it started, um, I don't think either of us had really set out to be leaders, but we had this recognition that if we don't do that, um, we're gonna be facing this scenario likely again. And we really wanted to protect the work that we were doing. Um, and so we were kind of, um, just by, by virtue of the circumstances, we were really given an opportunity. To, to be deeply challenged and see something, uh, an opportunity, uh, to create something together. And you could start it from scratch and make it what you wanted it to be, right? Maybe what you saw was lacking in other areas you could make up for. So did you have a, a formula in mind? And what do you think people maybe don't understand about substance use disorder you wanted them to understand? Yeah. Uh, that's interesting. Um, you know, I, I think that at that time, uh, our, our roles were different in that particular organization and, uh, Greg was, uh, the head of the intensive outpatient program where he was running all of the groups by himself and doing all of the individual sessions. And, you know, I was, um, running more of like the outpatient clinic and just the individual sessions and. Um, and so we, we were working together, but it was, it was less collaborative. But then when that company closed and, uh, I was hired at a residential program, they were in need of a clinical director, and I said, well, you should talk to Greg. He's a great therapist. And so they brought Greg in and hired him as the, the clinical director, and I was their program director. And that was really the, the stage that allowed us to start working more collaboratively and more creatively together. Um, on these, the, the, the teachings and the practices and the processes that we wanted to, to implement, uh, in a treatment environment. And so it wasn't so much like there are these things about substance use disorders that people don't know as much as, um, there are so many people that are working in the field of substance use disorder treatment and mental health treatment. That, um, maybe see themselves as, um, uh, immune from the necessity of recovery in their own life because I'm working in treatment, this is my recovery, or because I'm helping others, um, I'm, I'm the expert or I'm the one that shows up to, to fix them. And, and there was maybe a, a bit of a wall up around. Uh, what they were doing to take care of their recovery needs. And so that was more like the beginning of those conversations was what can we do to create a program that would really hold the staff accountable to the same rigorous recovery work that we're holding the clients accountable to? Hm. And from that, the, the notion of Embodied Recovery was born because, uh, we were really thinking, um, to the best of our ability, we wanted to. Uh, live into that promise and then model it to our clients because there's a, we know this from having worked with incredible mentors, but there's a felt presence of somebody who's, who's living in that integrity. And that more than any technique or any, um, theory, theory, uh, is, is so transformational in somebody's life. So if you get the chance, if you're out there and you're struggling and you get the chance to work with somebody. Who actually is embodying the thing that you're seeking, you're gonna have a far, um, greater opportunity to experience that. Uh, in all likelihood, that was, that was our experience. So we wanted to set up that space, that container wherein, um, the, the, the team would be held to the standard that we're seeking to teach. That's so interesting because I don't think many other people talk about that the therapist or whoever the Mm-hmm. um, just is seen as sort of separate from the person in recovery really maybe they shouldn't be. Because if they're able to open their hearts and their minds in, in a way. can help someone else that they're working Mm-hmm. Um, that it's not just about, oh, this person has the problem and I'm That's. Right. That's what I hear you Well, and, and just like you said earlier, right, is that there's so much othering of, of the, the person who's struggling with an addiction. And, and so it's, it's not just their, their family members or society. It can certainly be treatment professionals that, and you know, and I've worked at places where, uh, counselors would say, oh, well, they're borderline, or, you know, they just, they can't be helped, or, and, and there was this attitude towards certain disorders that felt like. Um, they're being written off before, given the opportunity to experience the gifts of recovery and, and in, sorry. I know you've kind of thought emerging, but in that moment when, when the therapist or counselor is judging and writing someone else off, something is actually coming up in the therapist or the counselor that needs tending. And that's why I'm judging that individual. So I have an opportunity. If I'm really in tune to my own process now I have an opportunity to tend to my own healing. And in fact, the way that we hold it, these clients, the ones that are struggling with, um, whatever it is that their cha particular challenges, part of their coming to is to support us and our continued growth. And, and, uh, evolution as well. And so in, in the years of doing this, it's been amazing to see. We'll have a counselor that's working with somebody that brings just the issue that would trigger that counselor and to be of service to that client. The only way they can be of service to that client is to tend to that part of themself that's being activated. And so there really is, um, when, when the work is genuine, there is that kind of. Um, uh, reciprocal relationship of some sort. That's not quite the right way to describe it because, um, we need to be, in essence a, a step or two ahead in many of the key areas that the client is struggling with. But if I'm not aware of my own issues and what's coming up for me, it's gonna be very difficult for me to be of service. Yeah, I've heard that concept that if, if there's somebody you're having difficulty with, I mean, not even in a, in a therapy, you know, situation, if there's some, another person you're having difficulty with, uh, or something in them really bugs you, it's because you don't wanna look at. That very thing in yourself is something, I mean, I've heard that concept before and I've thought a lot about that. Um, so I think that's interesting in the, in the therapist, you know, client relationship, that that could also be the case. And we certainly know there is stigma, mean, among medical professionals for people suffering from substance use disorder. And I could see that even stretching as far as those people who choose to be in that field. Yeah. Yeah, that's very true. Are you ready to protect the next generation from the dangers of substance use? Emily's Hope has created a comprehensive K through 12 substance use prevention curriculum designed to educate, empower, and equip students with the tools they need to make healthy choices are age appropriate lessons, starting kindergarten and build through high school using science, real stories and interactive learning to help kids understand their bodies, brains, and risk of drug use. We're already reaching thousands of students across multiple states, and we're just getting started. Visit emily's hope edu.org to learn more and share our curriculum with your school administrators and counselors. At Emily's Hope, we believe prevention begins with education. Let's work together to keep our kids safe. When Greg and Michael co-founded Embodied Recovery, they wanted to bring together a variety of approaches to healing. The program places a strong emphasis on emotional sobriety and helping people develop practices that can truly change the way they live. So one of our, our 12 core teachings will present to the public. And last night we presented on the decision maker and we referenced, uh, Viktor Frankl's book, man Search for Meaning and. In that book, he talks about, you know, between stimulus and response, there's a space. And in that space lies our, our freedom and our power to choose. And, and so the, the mindfulness work and, and we will talk more about the Sunbelt practice specifically, but it, it allows me to get back to that place and inside my own mind where I can see my capacity to make choices rather than living life on autopilot and, and judgment. And these, you know, uh. Distorted core beliefs and, and all these ideas that I believe are just common sense or it's just normal, or this is just the way things are. Um, I, I get to come back to a place within myself where I feel more empowered, uh, to create the experience of life that I'm wanting. And Sundo was, was, um, it was funny because when, when we were having some of these earlier conversations about what would it be like if we started a treatment center together? Greg said, well, look, I've, I've got this, this radical demand, you know, that if we're gonna do this, we practice sundo every day. And I thought like, boy, this guy, you know, he is, he is serious about this thing. Uh, and, and at the time, you know, like I had done some breath work and I had done yoga and, and I had, um. Uh, done some mindfulness practices, but it was never a, a coherent practice that I was committed to on a daily basis. It was more of like in case of emergency break glass and breathe, you know, uh, nice and slow. And, and this was, this was a very different demand. And when I started engaging in it, uh, regularly, I began to feel so much more grounded and centered and, and, um, and it took a while to get there.'cause initially it was frustrating, but. Yeah. Explain to our audience what Sundo is. Yeah. Okay. Um, yeah, so it's an ancient Korean Dallas practice. Um, it was for legend holds that it was practiced in the caves, uh, for thousands of years, and it was introduced to Korea, the city, um, uh, city life in Korea in like about 1967. And, um, so a man came down from the mountains and introduced that tradition, but it contained some elements that would be similar to yoga. There's three parts to the practice warming up, uh, which includes like calisthenics and stretching. And then the, the main work in Sundo is, uh, breath work, and that's the intersection. And then the final one is cool down, and that includes some physicality of like, kicks and fingertip, pushups and headstands and different things, as well as some stretches. But the main work of it is this lower diaphragmatic breathing, and it's done, um, according to progression, uh, progressive postures. So there's up to about 500 different breathing postures and it's built, it's done on a belt system. And so. Essentially what you're learning to do in the early stages is relax your chest and shoulders and breathe lower diaphragmatically into your lower abdomen. And what that can do is it creates, uh, the capacity for me to start to train myself to be in the parasympathetic branch of my nervous system to initiate the relaxation response. And this is really critical if I'm struggling with mental health or addiction. I, uh, probably routinely have the experience of things not working out well in my life, but also I'm, um, I may be kind of in the dumps or in the gutter, um, internally where I'm not getting good messages from within, from my inner experience of my body. And so sundo, uh, it's marvelous when you can, when you can train the breathing in such a way. That you get to the relaxation response, what you start to do is produce chemicals like serotonin, uh, which is like the feel good and the ease, um, that we want to feel in life. And then you can, um, harness that technology in such way that you're producing it every day. Um, and then the final thing I just wanna add is you're learning, essentially you're learning to stay open and to self-regulate while facing challenge. Uh, from different areas and different degrees of challenge. So, you know, some of the postures you'll be twisting and turning, but while you're doing that, you're learning to stay in your center doing that lower belly breathing and regulating. And so it's an awesome model for life because we face so many diverse challenges. And the the task in this is then how do I stay in my center? How do I stay re regulated? And this helps so much with emotional regulation. And how do I feel Good even in the midst of facing challenge. Yeah. People pe people using substances are really looking for something outside of You got it. to solve an immediate problem, That's right. Uh, and whether that be immediate problem in their thought process and their brains or an external thing, um, that's triggered them. And so this is training them to look within. You got it. And it's, I think how empowering that is. Oh my God. You know, I'm wrestling for something outside of myself, but no, here, it's right here with me. Wherever I go, I can find that, so, And that is, uh, the practice. I think a lot of meditation, mm-hmm. is going within instead of looking without can people, I mean, not everybody can come to your recovery center. You are located in California. Um, can people. Uh, find good tutorials and on sundo out there on YouTube and other things like that. Yeah. Yeah. In fact, we'll, um, we'll provide some links for you on that. But, uh, our master teacher is actually the son of the original man who came down from the mountains and he's in Korea, but he has quite an extensive, and it's all translated to English. It's a very extensive library, um, which can teach you everything that you would need to know about the tradition and, uh, and there's follow along practice and so forth. Yeah. We'll wanna include some information in our show notes here for people who wanna follow up and are, are interested in Yeah. Does it work for everybody that you, that comes to your recovery center? Oh, that's interesting. Yes. There's a caveat to that though. Yeah, it's, it's similar to recovery, right? So, uh, at, at the end of, um, every 12 step meeting, you know, they, they get together and, and they might say a prayer, and then they say, keep coming back. It works if you work it right. So they don't say, keep coming back. It works, we promise. Just, you know, hold on tight long enough. There's a contingency. That's right. Yeah. So if somebody is, and this is amazing, like, uh, we've had clients that were, you know, multiple years and even decades of resistant to every form of antidepressant, have not experienced any happiness in their life whatsoever. And all of those years recover their smile, recover their sense of inner joy and their agency in life. So it works if you're willing to get down on the floor and do it, it really does. That's so interesting, and I could see the appeal of something like that over some of the other maybe alternative therapies that we're seeing now in terms of like psychedelics, ketamine, I mean, all these different things that are coming out right now and people are always looking for. A quick, easy answer to their problems. I don't care what your problem is, right? That's what everyone is looking Yes. Ultimately don't wanna work that hard. Sundo sounds like you might have to work a little little bit at that, right? Yes. Um, yeah. Yeah. so how do you, um, you know, get people to buy into the fact that. It does take some work, it takes some time, it takes practice of, of many of these things, not not just one. You know, breathing type meditation. Yeah, it, it's a good question. And um, I think that in many ways we're fortunate as a treatment center. The people that are reaching out to us are in a place in their life where they're saying. Something isn't working and, and I need to do something different. And um, and if we said, okay, well that different thing, it's gonna take a while and it's gonna be really frustrating and you're not gonna enjoy it. They're gonna say, uh, nevermind. I'll call someone else. Yeah, I'll try somewhere else. So, um, there's truth in that. It, it does take time. It takes time for the brain to heal. It takes time for me to become more fluent in these new practices that I'm trying out. Um, and, and so even though there's truth in that, it takes time along the way, I, I I get to have these new experiences where I'm feeling better within my body or my mind is feeling more cleared up, or I'm having some new interactions with people that, uh, historically have been contentious or upsetting or difficult. I'm, I'm finding my way through them in a more useful way. And so, uh, it's, as people are coming in to a treatment center like this, they're, they're recognizing that there is gonna be some challenge to this work. And so we've tried to create a container that allows for them to experience that struggle and challenge, uh, with a lot of support so that they don't feel like the, the, the uncomfortable feelings mean that they're doing something wrong or that it's not working or that, um. You know that they're doomed to fail because they're feeling angry or upset or sad. Um, but that they can, they can go through these, these processes of transformation, um, slowly and gradually while experiencing some of these moments of, uh, real excitement and joy and, and some of these promises of recovery being fulfilled. So it takes time. Yes. And, uh, I, if I'm committed to it, I have enough of those moments of feeling really. Um, I'm feeling a lot better along the way. Right. There has to be some kind of reward or people wouldn't continue. Right. Yeah. Well, and um, to get back to that, that earlier question about we wanted to do something different. Part of what really is different, aside from um, the emphasis on the team being in recovery, is that we wanted to move from talking about recovery. Or giving people worksheets, um, or doing a lot of cognitive work, which there, there's fine work in that arena too, but we wanted to really move to a place, um, wherein the client would feel a felt shift. So it's not just the sundo practice that we do, it's, we do a lot of experiential psychotherapy. We do, um, inner child work healing through creativity. There are all these modalities where we're working not to simply get, um. Uh, either a moral or cognitive agreement.'cause a lot of people, um, they've been told for so many years, you know, don't do that. That's bad when they know that that's bad or it's not helpful or it's not constructive. But that's not actually helping them to change. But when they can experience the felt shift of that change, then they start to get a real buy-in 'cause it's from within. At the center, the two focus on helping people heal the deeper wounds that often lead to substance use disorder in the first place. Something they say is frequently rooted in grief or trauma. If you'd like to learn more about Embodied Recovery, you can find a link in the show notes for this episode. And while you're there, we'd appreciate it if you'd take a moment to rate and review this podcast and share it with friends or family who may find it helpful. I, The experiences that we have of, uh, being made wrong for being the one that we are early in life. Is, is experienced as traumatic. And so, you know, I was, I was bullied and, and picked on. And yet, like, it was these maybe smaller moments where like I would get a look that I was so embarrassing, just my existence, embarrassed somebody else. That created so much tension, uh, within myself that, um, those were the moments where I, I retreated inward and said I can't be myself any longer, and coming out of that is, is terrifying. Because now I'm, I'm being asked to let go of this mask and this shield that I've used for so many years to come back to this self that was shamed so long ago. And I'm afraid I'm gonna be shamed for being me again. And so it, it, it is, uh, a process of undoing that, uh, trauma and grieving the loss, uh, of, of time or of loved ones or my drug of choice to get to a place where I can. Um, accept myself again as just a, a broken person trying to heal. Yeah, I think so many people get the message that they're not okay. That who they are isn't okay. Hmm. Um, and why some people respond to substances and go that route and others don't, is is a bit of a mystery yet today, even though we know more about genetics and other things, um, I had a similar experience. I moved every few years as a kid growing up, made me very extroverted. Um, but everybody who I've talked to, uh, who, who has struggled with substance use disorder, has told me that first or second time they used a substance, they found their answer. And I heard you say something like that earlier in the conversation. Yes. That, that it's a solution. It's a solution for people. That's why people do Yeah, well, yeah. So the, the first time I took an opioid, I, I remember, I, I had this thought and I had been told for years, you know, you don't want to use drugs, you'll get addicted right away. And that concept didn't make much sense to me. I didn't really understand, like, you take something and then turn into a monster. And then the first time I took an opioid, the thought I had was. This is so unfair that normal people get to feel like this all the time, and I need to take this to feel normal. So the distorted belief I had was that, um, other people felt this content and at ease every day, and I was the one that was, uh, left without the necessary wiring or whatever it was, yep. uh, and needed to have this substance just to catch up to where everybody else was. Now, it wasn't true, but that was the really early stages of my addiction. and I've heard, I've heard other people describe it almost exactly the same. That, that, you know, when they found this substance, they finally felt like normal. Like everybody else must be feeling this way. You know, with the help that they had, with the help of a substance. And actually it's not true that other people were feeling uncomfortable and all of the other things, and we just dealt with it, right? So whatever way we dealt with it, Have you lost a loved one to overdose or fentanyl poisoning? I'd like to invite you to share their story on our new Emily's Hope memorial website called More Than Just a Number. They were our children, siblings, cousins, husbands, wives, aunts, uncles, and friends. So much more than just a number. You can submit a memorial today on more than just a number.org. While Michael and Greg find a lot of meaning in helping people rebuild their lives, they both say the real goal is preventing those struggles in the first place. That's something we care about deeply at Emily's Hope. That's why we've designed a K through 12 education curriculum to help students make healthier choices for life. The curriculum has been developed by experts to fight the rising overdose and substance use rates. You can find more information on our website, emily's hope edu.org. We've also included a link in our show notes. Typically where parents really, um, get mixed up is they, they usually do a combination of being permissive and being authoritarian. Uh, so they let things go wild, uh, because they're codependent or they're too busy with other things, and then when they come back on scene, they don't come back with loving authority. They come back with, uh, uh, kind of authoritarian, reactive posture. And so it's to create a lot of safety and trust for a child so that they can find, um, an adequate sense of being able to experience themself and all their shortcomings and all their greatness. Within the adult, they need to have this. Uh, it's helpful to have this marriage of both a very loving, accepting presence that's also firm and guiding. And if, if people can marry those things in their therapeutic work, they also become very effective. So, like the therapist, that that is only just loving and mirroring all the time, it tends to enable the client, like in the very worst things that are, uh, operating in the client, then just get affirmed. So, um, similarly, if the, if the therapists were sort of rigid and were only focusing on what they needed to change. Um, without being compassionate and really embracing them as they're struggling wouldn't be a very effective, the therapeutic rapport either. And so it's learning to, in my estimation, it's learning to marriage those, marry those things. And I did a lot of work with kids before I got into therapy, uh, and, uh, do doing, uh, therapy as a therapist. I kind of was exploring that whole arena and that's what I've seen be effective, whether it's working with, um, like, uh, adolescents or teens. So, uh, and then I guess maybe just to, to add my 2 cents to it. So I have three kids. Uh, I have a, a almost 12-year-old son, a 9-year-old daughter, and a 4-year-old son. And, So I watched this, uh, this Gabor mate talk that he was giving a while ago, and a woman in the audience had said, you know, I'm, uh. Um, I'm 35 and I really wanna have kids, but I'm terrified of having kids because, you know, my parents, they, they just. Uh, I feel like they messed me up so much and, and I don't wanna do the same thing to my child. And what can I do to prevent, you know, passing along all of my, um, issues to my child. And, and Gabor said, you know, uh, when did your parents get into recovery? And she said, I don't know. I mean, like, maybe they're looking into it now, but, uh, and he said, okay, well, do you think that if, if your parents had gotten into recovery. Before you were born, do you think that that would've made a difference in your life? And then she said, absolutely. It, it, it certainly would have. And he said, well, okay. So you're, you're doing what you can now to work on your issues, um, to the best of your ability. And so, you know, when with, with my oldest son, uh, there are so many things in his personality that remind me of that. Part of me that was. Shamed and embarrassed and, um, and maybe put my foot in my mouth or, or went too far out on a limb and, and I can get so, um, uptight or worried for him because I don't want him to have those experiences. But, um, and so in, and my parenting of him, I need to be really in touch with like, that, my, my impulse to. To scold or contain or to, uh, put those limits in place is sometimes coming from a place of my own shame and my own embarrassment. Uh, and, and it's this unnecessary protection that he doesn't need that, you know, um, he's got friends that, you know, think that he's wonderful in all of his weirdness and, um, and so, and it's, it's wonderful, but it's, it's my issue. And so, uh, they, they each have their own personality and, um, and I. I know that they're going to live their own individual lives that I can't control. But what recovery has taught me is just that, um, all I can do is work on myself to be the best version of myself that I can be consistently enough. That my kids know that there's a safe, consistent presence in their life to come to if they're uncertain or if they're struggling or if they don't know what to do. Um, if I were pretending like I had all the answers and I didn't make mistakes and um, you know, uh, that drugs are bad and, and it's gonna kill them, uh, then it would just promote more of this like, uh, secrecy and, and dishonesty and they would need to hide certain things 'cause they don't wanna get in trouble. And so. Kids need limits and they need structure. And, and so I'm not saying let them do what they want as long as they can talk to me about it. Uh, I, I, it's just, uh, the work in guiding them is more about me, uh, taking care of myself so that the limits that I'm placing are not reactive based on my emotional history. Does that make sense? It does. It does. And it sounds a lot like what we did, you talked about earlier with therapists having you know themselves right before working with, uh, clients that, that parents need to have themselves in the right head space in When they're raising their children, but I do think it is frightening for parents in today's world with fentanyl out there and other, you know, dangerous analogs, stronger than fentanyl, even that it, it, hard not to always be reactionary when you hear about everything that's going on in the world and when your child has your genes, which we know genes contribute to substance mm-hmm. So, I mean, it's hard. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and so trying to find that balance of, um. Uh, education and prevention and clarity and, and all, like, I, I want my children to grow up to be independent, healthy adults that, um, create the lives for themselves that they want. And, um, and, and I don't want to just turn into an internalized voice that's telling them, you know, why they're wrong or why they're bad or what they're not good enough at. Um, and, and probably will anyway, like there, there's, there's things that I just, I, I can't help, but, um, I'm gonna make mistakes and I'm gonna get things wrong. Um, but as, as much as I can, um, uh. Notice that the part of me that is so scared can also get really reactive, and that reactivity can create more chaos in the relationship than what would be helpful. Then I can find a way to deal with my own anxiety and my own issues, so that the issue I'm scared about is one that I can address in a, um, in a, a more constructive way. And then I wanted to also ask you both if you think that there are things that society is getting wrong about recovery or about substance use disorder, that, that you'd like people to know or, or a way to do things. You're trying to do things differently. That's what, that's what I hear all along and a theme in this conversation. Yeah. I guess one of the things that I would say is that, uh, what society gets wrong is that some people need recovery and others don't. Uh, I, I'd say that everybody needs recovery. Yeah. Yeah. Like, uh, most, most people who are even, um, uh, appearing as well, adjusted and doing really well in life are struggling with things inwardly and they're compensating. A lot of people, you know, we're in Silicon Valley and so it's. Uh, people are compensating hugely by their perform, uh, performative nature and all the ways in which they're, um, Hmm. maybe exceeding outwardly in life, but still yet struggling inward. And so the issue E, even if you're not struggling with, uh, substance use, the issue of codependence. There's a lot of work to do in that, and that's a really powerful arena. And it's, it's also a little more mysterious because it's not as concretized as a substance. Yeah. But, uh, you might see, uh, this is a, a really common term that people use. And if you hear this term, just know that, uh. Codependence is at the root of it. And so the term is burnout. Yeah. Right. So when you hear people say, you know, like, I'm just getting burnt out, uh, or, you know, like, I have to go to this seminar for preventing burnout. Yeah. It's, it's, uh, what's at the root of it is this, this codependent issue where I'm looking to, to manage all of these circumstances outside of me to be as I want them to be so that I can be okay. Rather than doing the work of recovery, which is to get back to what do I need to do to take care of myself despite circumstances being as they are. That's so interesting. I've never heard it put that way. Burnout. You hear it? That's sort of a buzzword right now, right? In our society. I mean, people are so busy. And I remember working in television for 35 years and the constant deadlines and the constant pressure, and, and I did feel burned Yeah. I mean, I did. Uh, I don't feel burned out now, but I did then. And so you wanna analyze me? Well, no. Uh, we can do that later. But, uh, no, I just, I think that it can be confusing for people because we do have stressors and we do have deadlines and there are obligations and, and things that, um, that, that we need to show up for. It's just that, uh, when I begin to mistranslate that need as I have to, rather than like, I'm, I'm choosing to, I want to, even though I don't like these choices, they're still choices I'm making. Now I, I get lost in that trap of it's the externals that are making me, rather than, um, my relationship to these choices is what's creating this experience. Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me anyway, because I, I thought about that long after I, I left that arena that I, it really was my choice. Um, so I, you know, didn't have anyone else to blame for my burnout other than myself. And I think that can translate into a lot of aspects of our lives. For sure. And um. You know, to say I didn't have anyone else to blame but me. Um, that, uh, there can be something really empowering in that accountability that like, um, at the, the blame helps me feel like, uh, I would've made a different choice if I could have, or, you know, it's just, it, it had to go this way. And if I. If I have to take responsibility for so much of the pain that I experienced, it can be even more painful and really difficult. And so, uh, it's, it's not about, um, I'm to blame as much as, um, you know, I just, uh, I wasn't in a place at that time to really see it clearly, you know, how hooked and I was to this, uh, to this work or this system, or you know, what it is that I was striving for. Yeah. Well, I just, it's been a really interesting and enlightening conversation with both of you. And, uh, we will put, uh, all of your information about your recovery center in our show notes as well. And I just wondered if you wanted to leave our listeners and viewers with anything else. Oh, we could leave them with a lot of different things. Yeah. I'll offer, so we were talking about this last night. Um, whatever the issue that you're struggling with. The beautiful thing about getting into recovering and doing this meaningful work is that each year you can really begin to feel more agency in the areas that you struggle with. So, um, so then when you reach that end of the year, it really is, it can be quite a celebration, uh, of where you're living from today versus. How you felt in the past. And so, um, you know, recovery is really the discovery of new possibilities. So wherever you are, whatever you're struggling with, um, you can face those same issues and those same challenges with greater empowerment. And, um, and so, uh, yeah, that's my main offering to anybody that's out there. What I hear in that is hope. That's what I hear. Yeah. And I guess I would maybe just wanna offer that, um, you know. For me, 12 steps was, was such a big part of my recovery journey. Um, and there were a ton of other pieces, but, uh, if you're, if you're struggling with an addiction to a substance, um, alcoholics Anonymous, narcotics Anonymous are, are great resources. Um, if you have a loved one that's struggling with an addiction, Al-Anon is a great resource. If you don't have a family member struggling with an addiction, or say you have parents that were. Less than functional or destructive forces in your life. Adult children of alcoholics, uh, is a great 12 step fellowship. Uh, and then if you're, if you're struggling to find your sense of center and, and continue to find yourself in, um, these relational patterns that are unfulfilling, uh, Coda or Codependence Anonymous. Uh, is, is a fantastic fellowship. So there are these free resources and groups of people that are getting together to work on themselves. Uh, this time of year is, is great in recovery because there's, um, marathon meetings. So certain places will have meetings every hour on the hour. Um, and so. Uh, if you can't get to a meeting, there's, there's a bunch of resources. If you have insurance, you could call them to find out, you know, if you have therapists in your area, but there, there are people out there that are willing to support if, um, if you're willing to make those calls. Yeah, get the support and get the help that you need. You don't have to suffer alone. And we have a. of resources on our website as well. So we'll leave people with that final note. Such an important thing to remind people you're not alone in this and there are people willing to help and there are people who've been through. I don't care what it is, there are people who've been through what you've been through. Um, that can help. So thank you both for joining me today. Thank you for having us. And thank you for listening to this episode of Grieving Out Loud. Stay tuned each week for a new episode. You can check out hundreds of episodes anytime on our website, Emily's Hope Charity. Again, you'll find a link in the show notes. Thank you again for listening. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Weinberg, king and Kaylee Fitz.