If you love, you will likely grieve. And that isn't meant to sound heavy. It is simply human. And most of us, if we haven't already, will one day lose someone we love. For today's guest on grieving Out Loud, those losses came earlier than they do for many people. Sylvia Wolfer was just seven years old when her father died. Suddenly from a heart attack. At 17, she lost her younger brother in a car crash. Several years later, her older brother was also killed in a car crash. By the time my older brother died. I was so angry because I realized that all this unattended grief that I had carried with me for decades had taken away precious moments. I could have spent more mindfully with him, and that made me angry, and that's really when there was that shift where I thought, enough is enough. since then, Sylvia has not only learned ways to navigate her own grief, but she also helps others manage theirs while grief doesn't disappear. She says it can be something that you live with, not something that dictates your days. Grief will always be there and grief is love. So you want it to be there. You don't even wanna get rid of your grief, but you want. You don't want to be a victim of it anymore. You don't want grief to run the show all the time. In this episode of Grieving Out Loud, Sylvia shares practical ways to navigate grief and also what her grief has taught her about life. I've stopped to be needy in the way I love, so I'm not, um, expecting, and I'm not panicking. I'm not feeling like, oh my God, what if this person doesn't love me anymore? What, you know, I'm, I just love genuinely from a place of unconditionally just giving the love without expecting anything in return. And, uh, and it's so freeing, it's so liberating, and it removes part of that suffering that is, uh, due to the attachment. Grief doesn't just break our hearts. It actually rewires our brains, hijacks our nervous system, and can make us feel like strangers in our own bodies. Yet so many of us are left wondering, why do I feel this way? Am I doing grief wrong? Well, today's guest helps answer those questions in a way that feels grounding, compassionate, and deeply validating. Sylvia Wolfer is a grief guide, mindfulness practitioner, and a Pilates teacher who understands grief really from the inside out. She's experienced multiple sudden losses losing her father and her two brothers unexpectedly, and then later her mother. And those losses set her on a path to understand not just the emotional pain of grief, but what's actually happening in our brains, our nervous system, when life is turned upside down. In this conversation, Sylvia helps us make sense of why grief can feel so overwhelming, unpredictable, why our bodies react the way they do, and how steadiness can slowly return without forcing healing, or even pushing the pain away. approach is gentle, practical, and honest, reminding us that grief is not something to fix, but something to understand. Sylvia, thank you so much for being here. I cannot wait to dive into this conversation, Thank you so much, Angela, for having me. I'm also really honored and grateful to be here with you today, and I'm very excited about our conversation. You know, I think a lot about the early phase of grief after I first lost my daughter. It's now been, that was in 2018, so it's been quite a few years, and how grief changes and evolves, and also why it's so important that we talk about. people go through, especially after you lose somebody, I think you've lost so many people, and I, I'm so sorry for that. But to experience that over and over again, it almost feels debilitating. I would imagine. It is, it is. You feel like it hits the wrong family. You know, at some point you're like, this just can't be, it can't happen again. And like you say, a sudden loss is very disorienting and it's really very difficult for the brain to grasp. And it's only after having lost, well, my dad as a child, my younger brother has a teenager, and then more recently in 2019, my older brother. That's when I started to dive into the science because I felt like the whole world was crumbling around me. And this data, the, the facts, the studies, the research was giving me something to hold onto and understanding what's going on in the brain has been really insightful. First because. It kind of validated my experience. I realized that I was not going crazy, and this is why I think it's so important we open up the conversation about this because even though it's a universal experience, grief is very lonely and isolating, and we tend to think that we are losing it, we're going mad, and it's just us, so we almost don't dare to talk about it. I really liken it to a brain injury because I felt like. Something was wrong with my brain and my heart. I mean, I think Hmm. it was all of it, right? So I, I remember some of the physical symptoms of grief, like being extremely thirsty all the time, not being able to eat, not being able to sleep, uh, feeling overwhelmed by emotion. I remember my heart actually hurting, feeling like it was actually breaking into, I dunno how many people had that physical symptom, but I had it. And to get through all that, we want people to just go on, go back to work, go back to their lives. But if someone suffered a physical injury, we would give them time to heal. Right? We wouldn't expect them to be back on the job in three days. And this is very similar to that, I think. It is, and actually what you're mentioning about the brain injury, it is changing. The brain structure on a physiological level. There's, um, neuroscientist Dr. Lisa Schulman who explains that beautifully in her book before and after loss, how it alters the brain, just like an injury. And like you say, we wouldn't ask someone who's broken an arm to. To to, to speed up the healing of the bone Right, we know it's not possible. And it's exactly the same with grief. And when you talk about a heartbreak, it's actually also a very valid feeling because the people who lose a loved one, their risk of, um, heart attack is much, much higher. It's like, I think it's something like 20. 20 times higher within the 24 hours of losing a loved one. And then over the next few months, it's two or three times higher than in their normal life. So there is a real physical risk and there's a real heartbreak, uh, when it comes to grief. And the brain is completely, it's like a glitch in the brain, and this is why it's so. Confusing because we're still expecting the people. We still feel like texting them sometimes even years later. And this is where we might think, oh my God, is there something wrong with me? But it's because our brains have had these people, um, as like cogs, the people we love, the people who are in our life, they co-regulate our system. So when they suddenly disappear, it's a huge. Shockwave for the whole system and it takes a lot of time to adapt to it, to recalibrate. And even though we might understand the facts, we get it. We understand it. The brain needs lived experience to integrate it. So it will take, you know, several. Month or years to understand that, uh, this was another birthday. Without them, this was another Christmas. Without them, it takes that live experience to really integrate the, the information, and this is why it takes so long. Yeah, we don't talk about that. I don't, I don't think, I don't think Yeah. about it enough. Tell me, I know I, you know, I, I talked about all the losses you've experienced, but tell me a little bit more about your background and how you came to learn so much of this. Yeah, so my dad died very suddenly of a heart attack when I was seven. Which was a shock. But children are kind of, um, very different in the way they approach grief. I have a very different memory of this than I do have of, uh, when I was 17, when my younger brother died suddenly in a, in a road accident. And that was really, um, that broke me. That really broke me. And then more recently, in 2019, my older brother died in the same way, a road accident very suddenly, and it just felt so. Impossible to believe. It felt unfair as well. It was like, why, why? Again, it was almost embarrassing to be like, what? That that can't be, not again. What's wrong? Is it going to happen again? And it's, it feels like a threat. Uh, and it completely dysregulated my nervous system and I felt very lost. And it was just before lockdown. So I was alone. I was living before COVID. Yeah. And I was, I was alone. And so I was very lonely in my grief. I was living in a country where no one really knew him because my brother was living in Germany. I was in England at that time. And so all these very long lockdown evenings on my own. Been diving into the literature and the neuroscience and trying to understand what was going on because again, that the data was helping me to hold onto something. And it was quite validating and it made me feel connected to, you know, humankind who has been, who have been through, through the same kind of experience. And it was a little later that, uh, while I was in therapy, my therapist was very intrigued by all these losses and very religious, uh, as well. And she said to me one day, you know, uh. God has a very clear message for you. You have a mission. You have been through grief more than average, and you still have a love for life. You still have, you know, joy and hope in, in your personality. You need to share it. And at first I was very reluctant. I said, absolutely not. I don't want more grief in my life. I have enough. I don't wanna, I don't wanna spend my work with grief on top of that. And I walked home that day and it took about 20 minutes, and by the time I got home. It wasn't evidence. I knew she was right. I knew she was right. And that's how I started, uh, turning this into my work. And to be fair, it has been really therapeutic because it shifted the perspective from my grief, my experience to, we probably experienced the same to other people's grief. Mm-hmm. was very helpful, very helpful. I have since I started doing this work that what has helped me most is helping others. it's so, seems almost selfish to help other people and we live in a time where, I don't know, cruelty has become the norm and, but I still believe that most people are kind and wanna help other people. And while we seem to be in, I know you're not in the United States, dividing into separate tribes and camps and, you know, I just think that really, um. The basic human nature and the basic, um, human instinct is to help others, is to be kind because we benefit from that when we do that as opposed to cruelty Yes, and, and you know, from an evolutionary perspective, you really hit the nail here because we are a kind species, we would have had to be caring and look out for each other for survival. And because it was a matter of Yes, exactly, and because it was a matter of survival, nature has given us a very strong, rewarding system. So being kind makes us feel good for that very evolutionary reason. So you are right. By nature, human beings are kind, life circumstances might change them, but there's no evil baby. You know, Einstein used to say that no one was born evil. So I do believe that people are kind, and I think you're absolutely right. One of the most helpful things to do when we are suffering is really to help others. It it, you know, it gives meaning when everything seems meaningless. And I think there's a lot of grief going on in my country, the United States, over what people feel they've sort of lost in our country. And so there's all different forms of grief, right? And many people feel powerless to do anything about it, but you can take small steps and do small things. It doesn't have to be a big thing. Just doing something small help you no matter what kind of grief experiencing. Yes, that's very true. And like you say, we all have, um, we all have people we can impact and may it just be one person you, you know, may just be the neighbor. I mean, if the bigger the audience, the better. But we can all do something in, in our surroundings. Yes, you're right. Are you ready to protect the next generation from the dangers of substance use? Emily's Hope has created a comprehensive K through 12 substance use prevention curriculum designed to educate, empower, and equip students with the tools they need to make healthy choices are age appropriate lessons, starting kindergarten and build through high school using science, real stories and interactive learning to help kids understand their bodies, brains, and risk of drug use. We're already reaching thousands of students across multiple states, and we're just getting started. Visit emily's hope edu.org to learn more and share our curriculum with your school administrators and counselors. At Emily's Hope, we believe prevention begins with education. Let's work together to keep our kids safe. I wanna go back to Hmm. 17-year-old self. And the reason I'm interested in that, when you lost your brother suddenly in a car crash, um, my children were in their teenage years in high school when they lost their sister suddenly to fentanyl poisoning. And I recently now. Now they're adults, young adults, and I recently went back and did a podcast with them talking about how that loss shaped them. I think the charity that I started, some of the work they did for it really helped them.'cause then they were helping other people through their Yeah, it's beautiful. but like processing that as a 17-year-old as opposed to processing it. Losing your brother as an adult in 2019. How's it different? Yeah, well, you know, it's very different. And actually diving into the literature showed me that one of the population that is the most at risk for really complicated grief are teenage girls. Um, Um, yeah. And so it might be a bit different nowadays, but back then, that was 30 years ago, there was no support. Whatsoever. Um, and, uh, for a very long time I did not understand what happened to me. And I also realize now in hindsight that sibling grief can sometimes be overlooked. You know, I remember that I was the one organizing the funeral, you know, selecting the poems that would be read, the music, the clothes he would be wearing. Every I can see myself at 17 thinking, should I get socks for him? Will he be cold? Or, you know, and I feel now that. I shouldn't have had to do that. That was too much. And people would always ask, how's your mom? How's your mom? And so I started to be responsible for my mom looking after my younger brothers. And in that sense, I found, um, and I, I did a digital course on that, on sibling grief, because it's often overlooked and it's, it doesn't come across as valid as losing a partner, losing a child, uh, losing a parent. So, I dunno if your, um, children had that experience too, but it can be a tricky one. Yeah, I would say that my children felt overly be overly responsible. I would say my children felt overly responsible for my wellbeing. In fact, two of my children, Abby and Adam, opened up about their own struggles with grief and what it was like to watch their parents grieve when they joined me on the podcast. When my daughter Emily died in 2018, Adam and Abby were both teenagers in high school trying to make sense of the unimaginable loss while still growing up themselves. Do you think that it was difficult to witness your parents' grief? Through all this. Yeah. It was hard. It's hard to see someone you love grieve. Yeah. To add onto that, I would say it was really hard just because like, like you're like the closest person in my life and seeing you just like, you know, break down emotionally and seeing you cry, it, it kind of like as your son, it made me kind of feel helpless and I wanted to do as much as possible to help you, but. In the moment, you really can't. And then also too, it's, it's weird because like comparing parent grief with like sibling grief, it's so different and there's such like a complex like divider because with you, like so much of your life revolves around Emily and it's just so different compared to with me where I was 16, you know, thinking of college, having like a whole entire new life ahead of me, kind of like. Tackling that difference was hard for me in the beginning, but I'm starting the, the more time goes on, the more I'm starting to see how prevalent of a difference it is. You can check out the full episode with my kids by heading to the show notes of this podcast. While you're there, we'd appreciate it if you take a moment to rate and review this episode and share it with someone who may find it helpful. One thing I believe deeply is that people who are grieving need to know they're not alone. Grief can feel isolating even when you're surrounded by others. Any advice you could give people who are in the midst of, of loss and have the siblings, like what do you do to help? Your other children who are going through this. Yes. Well, I think talking, you know, creating a safe space where. All questions can be asked, uh, repetitively if necessary. You know, the same question over and over again. Creating a safe space and just providing whatever type of support might be helpful. And also ways to regulate, you know, because I found that, um, because the support was lacking. I was constantly bracing for grief waves, grief bombs, for years, for decades. And I thought, this is just how it is. You know, when you lose the people you love the most. That's just how life is gonna be. I'm gonna be crying randomly in supermarkets, in the car, mid-conversation, in a meeting. I just, you know, I kind of cap capitulated and thought this is what it is, and I wish someone would've told me. It can be different because by the time my older brother died. I was so angry because I realized that all this unattended grief that I had carried with me for decades had taken away precious moments. I could have spent more mindfully with him, and that made me angry, and that's really when there was that shift where I thought, enough is enough. I want to figure out how to regain agency. I can't accept to be a victim of grief my whole life, and this is something I wish someone would have explained to me when I was a teenager, that there is agency. It takes time, but it is possible. Just that, that idea, you know? I heard you say something I've never heard before. A victim of grief, and I understand what you Hmm. I run a support group, mostly parents who've, who've lost a child and we talk a lot about those waves and you know, you can be in your car driving and that wave of grief can hit, you can be, like you said, I've. I, I wrote a blog called Crying at Costco. I was inside, uh, you know, Costco crying because I saw a, a young woman who reminded me and looked like my daughter. And so you do feel powerless to those waves being hit by those waves. What can you do to, can you not be a victim of grief? How can you control it? Yes, yes, you can. You can, you can in a way that you, so for example, what I do myself and what I do with clients, I invite them to schedule it. You know, when I am about to be hit by a wave of grief, I will say, not now. Not now. And then I will make an appointment with myself. Literally Thursday night, 8:00 PM I will get the candles out, listen to the sad music, get the pictures out, watch videos, and give myself, um, room to cry, to be sad, to just think about it, go through it. And this, it doesn't change dramatically the first few times, but if you do that repetitively, your brain will register that and then you will have that power to say, not now. I see you. I hear you. I'm not going to ignore you. You will come in, in my terms, and that's very powerful. That feels empowering. I have never heard that concept before. Of scheduling grief or scheduling, like, like a grief session for I know. time to Yes. I, I've talked a lot on this podcast 'cause I've been doing it for a lot of years now about, you know, allowing. you know, to move through you rather than, because you don't wanna, the one thing you don't wanna do when you say not now, is you don't wanna block it, right? Because then it gets No, no. and then it comes out in all kinds of ways that can be self-destructive. So just, but just to schedule it, I mean, eventually it's just like, okay, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna cry right this minute in this meeting, or during this time. I'm gonna do it later. Yes, exactly. And it sounds very surprising, um, every time I say that, but trust me, it does work. And over time it does work. And then you really give your grief because grief will always be there and grief is love. So you want it to be there. You don't even wanna get rid of your grief, but you want. You don't want to be a victim of it anymore. You don't want grief to run the show all the time. And, and this is something that I've learned and I wish I would've known how to do that before, you know, because it would've, Yeah. spared me a lot of suffering and a lot of time I could've spent with others because, you know, sadly I've experienced it firsthand, but people die, but then other people die and other people die. That's just how it is, you know, so you don't wanna miss out on what life has still to offer. I have said before that life certainly is about loss. If and if you live long enough, you will lose many people around you and. think that's a hard concept for people to accept. To accept that life truly is about loss, and we can grow those losses if we allow it. Yes, that's very true. And you know, I've, uh, spent the last two years in, uh, countries that happen to be Buddhist. Just happened to be the case. It wasn't a choice in the first place, but what I've learned is that they have a very strong sense of impermanence. Impermanence is really one of the pillars of Buddhism and that notion that nothing will ever remain the same, whereas in our Western cultures, we have a tendency to hold onto, and it's even a love language too. Care for things and to, you know, to take care of objects that you will have been given as a sign of love and, uh, and, and, and importance for the person who has given it to you. We want things to remain the same. Um, but it's, it's ever changing. It's ever changing. And Buddhism is really interesting in that sense because it is just a principle. So from a very young age, children understand that nothing will ever remain the same. And, and really the one main principle of Buddhism is detachment, right? Detach from places, people and things. All, all of it, which is really hard for us to do in the West. Yes. And detaching doesn't mean not loving. You know, detaching doesn't mean not loving. right. Hmm, exactly. It just means to. Love in a very unconditional way, you know, so I've learned that through grief as well, because when grief takes away the people you love the most. I found that for myself, I've, I've stopped to be needy in the way I love, so I'm not, um, expecting, and I'm not panicking. I'm not feeling like, oh my God, what if this person doesn't love me anymore? What, you know, I'm, I just love genuinely from a place of unconditionally just giving the love without expecting anything in return. And, uh, and it's so freeing, it's so liberating, and it removes part of that suffering that is, uh, due to the attachment. Right. Buddhism talks a lot about suffering, you know, the human condition of suffering and. It's, we could learn a lot from all of these things. Um, there are great things to learn from every world religion, I think, and, Yes, yes. incorporating that into how you cope and handle grief. I wanna talk for a minute about getting back to, talked about love, but getting back to joy, getting back to being engaged in life because I have seen people disengage from life, and I do Mm. Mm the feeling within the first couple years after my daughter died of thinking. Oh my gosh, I may have to live another 30 years without her, and I don't really wanna, hmm. and it wasn't as much of a suicidal thought as I kind of thought like, what's the point? What's the point of being here anymore if it's just going to, you Mm. I, I have to live with this grief. And I think it was, is very easy for people to get depressed to not think they will ever feel. maybe it's, maybe you don't feel the same kind of naive joy that you felt before that first initial loss or trauma, traumatic loss, right? Where you thought couldn't really harm you. I think a lot people kind of go around thinking, this can't happen to me. Um, I know, I know. back to that, of being engaged in life of, of letting go of some of the sorrow. Not that you won't still experience it, but allowing. The joy in. How does one do that? Yeah, that's such a good question. And you know, in the, in the way I work and in the way I approach grief as well, I love very pragmatic solutions. You know, things that are very actionable that make me feel like I can grasp, I can hold onto something. And as you say, especially at the beginning, it feels ever consuming. And it feels like grief is always there all day long. I felt like I was. Pain walking around, you know, like my whole being was just pain. And what I recommend the people I work with now to do is to have a journal and to just write down in the evening, when was grief present and when was it not present? Was there a moment where grief softened a little bit? And by writing it into a journal, you, you will see a pattern over time. And we can see if there has. Been triggers, you know, and we can see what has been helping to soothe the grief and to just actually notice that, oh, there was a moment where grief wasn't that present. There was a moment where actually smiled. So that awareness and having it written on paper, that's a first step towards reconnecting to life. I also think. Uh, gratitude. And early on when I was overwhelmed by those emotions of, uh, traumatic, you know, grief, I remember just thinking I have to find something to be grateful for in this moment. Or my head is gonna explode. My heart is gonna, I mean, I just feel like I wasn't gonna, Hmm. like, I just wanna jump outta my Hmm. And I think anybody. Hmm. relate to that, who's been through something traumatic. Right. Um, so I would just say, oh, I'm just, I'm grateful I'm breathing. I'm grateful that I am in this house, that I have this house. Right. I just, I mean, just anything I could physically, that I could try to just be grateful for, seemed to help me. I. Yes. And how did you find it? Um, seeking things to be grateful for? Did it come quite naturally or did you kind of have to fake it till you made it? You know, was it, was it genuine or were you having to really put effort into it? it was genuine. I had been through something traumatic earlier, uh, in my life where I had just said if I, where I would feel the, that anxiety building up and I would just say. I'm all right in the moment. Nothing bad is happening to me in this moment. I can survive the next 10 seconds and I would try to breathe right and not think How interesting. Yes. had Yes. for stopping, Hmm. and saying, okay, look for something. And I think it was genuine. I mean, I, I was grateful that, you know, I had this thing of my daughters or that I had had this call from somebody or. Somebody had dropped off food, you know, that kind of thing. And I think other people helped me to find the gratitude too. Yes, yes. And gratitude is such a, such a powerful tool, such a powerful tool to bring us back into the moment and to reconnect us to life and to people around us. You're right. I think it's the same, it's similar to that concept of what you said in a journal. Figuring out just a, a, a space, a a moment in time where you're not feeling bad, really bad, right. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly, exactly. Because it really does feel like it's constant. It feels like it's ever consuming all day long, every day, and just noticing that, oh, actually, it's not quite all day long. There are small moments where it's not there. And I feel now, um, you know, as I'm approaching eight years, since my Hmm. that. I have healed quite a bit, and I, I talk about this now because I, I'm not gonna say that I don't still experience grief or I don't carry that with me and I miss her, that I can now reengage in life. Like I'm interested in so much that it's going on and it's important to me and, um. That I have things to look forward to and, and that kind of thing. So I think time, talk about time for a minute because, but then you could get sidelined as you did by another death. So I think Mm hard, right? Because you put yourself back out there to be engaged in life again. you can have experience loss again and go through the whole mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And that's where you want to, to be prepared. And I find that, you know, what grief teaches us, the resiliency teaches us is something that can be applicable to everything in life. You know, there, there are skills that are helpful for any, for anything in life, but when it comes to time, um, I always compare grief to a wound, you know, and when you have an open wound, let's say you fall off your bike and, and you hurt your knee, um, it's going to be painful to first clean the wound. Before, you know, you take care of the wound, so that pain, that discomfort is, you can't avoid it. But over time some wounds will heal and some people will manage to go through their grief. It doesn't mean that it's not painful, but they kind of find a meaning again and connection to life. But for other people it will not be the case. So I would recommend people to ask themselves, how is my grief? Is it slowly healing over time? Or is it not? Because if it's not, then it's really important to seek support because a wound that doesn't heal will not stay as it is. It will fe and it will get worse. Have you lost a loved one to overdose or fentanyl poisoning? I'd like to invite you to share their story on our new Emily's Hope memorial website called More Than Just a Number. They were our children, siblings, cousins, husbands, wives, aunts, uncles, and friends. So much more than just a number. You can submit a memorial today on more than just a number.org. So what can you do if, if your grief wound isn't healing? You know, maybe you're a few years out and you feel stuck. What, what can you do? Yeah, so you can either get support, obviously, or there are simple things you can do. On your own. And I would recommend to tend to the body. You know, the, our body carries our emotions and we can feel that when a grief wave hits, it starts in the body with a tight chest, a shallow breath, the heart rate is coming up. We might even get hot flushes. So the body carries grief. And when emotions and when the heart, when this is all too heavy, we can always support our body. So I had, uh, after my older brother died, uh, in 2019. I just didn't know how to help myself anymore. I was really broken. I felt really broken, and I thought, okay, let's start with the body and let's just do simple things. But tick the boxes day after day after day, getting morning, daylight, hydrating, eating real meals, moving gently, whatever that was on that day. Walking, stretching, maybe a bit of Pilates and surrounding myself with. People who gave me energy, and these were my five non-negotiables and I was trying to implement them every day. And it's just like training. You know, you don't see the results overnight. You go to the gym once or twice, you won't feel your body changing. But if you do it every day, over weeks and month, there will be a change. So if everything feels too heavy, tend to your body, look after your body, you will do yourself a huge favor. I think also connecting with nature can be very healing Hmm. if not most people. Do you find that to be true as well? Yes. Yes. And I was in, uh, in touch with people from the UK who are implementing, they call it forest bathing, uh, for grief. Uh, and a lady, yes. Explain what it is for people who don't know. Well, you basically spend at least one hour in a forest surrounded by nature. So there is a certain amount of time you need to spend for the nervous system to register that. And this lady, um, I haven't, I haven't seen her research yet, but we, we are in touch. She's going to run 12 week retreats for grieving people, uh, including forest bathing because it's super helpful. Nature is a, I mean, we call her mother nature for a reason. And there's another lady also in the, in the uk she's a a grief therapist and she does all her sessions outdoors. No matter the weather. She takes people on a walk. Hmm. I live in a frozen tundra where we couldn't be outside all the time, but whenever I can get out, I do, because that has been something that's been very helpful to me as well. Through her work. Sylvia writes a blog and hosts her own podcast where she shares guided meditations in English, French, and German. She also offers digital courses designed to help people better understand their grief and how they can move forward at their own pace. To help people understand what's happening in their brain. I have one that is quite popular and it's about these grief triggers, you know, and how to learn how to manage them in the moment, because I felt so bitter for how much time these grief triggers had stolen from me. Um, and, and then also of course on sibling grief. So digital resources that people can do in their own time at home with tools that they can come back to. Whenever they need them. if you'd like to learn more about Sylvia's services, you can find a link to her website in the show notes. I've also included links to other grieving out loud episodes about grief that I personally found helpful. And if you're struggling right now, please know this. You're not alone. There is support. There are people who understand and there are ways to take the next small step forward. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Weinberg, king and Kaylee Fitz.