Today's marijuana is definitely not that of the sixties and seventies. It's far more potent, and research is increasingly linking heavy use to serious mental health issues, including psychosis and schizophrenia. Today's guest on grieving out loud, Kristin Gilliland, knows the danger all too well. he started hearing voices. He, you know, thought that people were following him. He felt like, um, sometimes it may have been, you know, one of us, his dad or his mom, or against him, or we had someone, you know, ask someone to follow him. It is a struggle. Kristen never imagined would touch her own family, especially given her background. She holds a PhD in organic chemistry and was a professor of organic chemistry, neurochemistry, and the chemistry of drugs and poisons. The one thing I did not know, and these are all the things I look back of, you know, should have, could have, would've, you know, looking back, I didn't understand the difference in potency. I didn't realize how the potency, the percent THC, that psychoactive component in the marijuana had changed, In this episode of Grieving Out Loud, Kristen opens up about what she wishes she had known sooner, what parents need to know as marijuana becomes more accessible, and how she used her scientific background to chart a new path after losing her son. Every day you open your eyes. It's a gift. And, and I think that. Okay, Losing Anders was the one thing that I, it put my whole life in perspective. Today on Grieving Out Loud. I'm joined by Kristin Gilliland, a scientist, educator, and grieving mother who has turned unimaginable loss into a mission to help others. She earned her PhD in organic chemistry, taught chemistry and neurochemistry as a professor, and even worked on new treatments for schizophrenia at Vanderbilt University. Kristen's path shifted when her teenage son was diagnosed with drug-induced schizophrenia, and then tragically later died of an accidental overdose. Since then, she's devoted her skills and passion to educating young people and parents about the adolescent brain mental health and the dangers of today's drug supply. Through her role at the Warren Center for Neuroscience Drug Discovery, Kristen presents in schools and communities across Tennessee and created the documentary speaking through me to spark vital conversations about prevention, resilience, and self-care. She is here to share her family story, her science and her heart. Kristen, welcome to Grieving Out Loud. Thank you Angela. I am very honored to be here. Well, it is so great to be able to talk to you. Uh, one of our employees at Emily's Hope met you at a conference where you were speaking and was just blown away by everything that you had to say in your experiences, and I'm so anxious to share all that with our listeners. Yeah. You started. In neuroscience, in brain science as your career, probably never thinking it was really going to, you know, come to hit home in your family's personal story. No, you know, I, I was always fascinated by neuroscience, by the brain, by the way. Uh. Drugs, even, you know me, the pharmaceutical drugs impact the brain. I. And you know, there's a part of me that thinks that just, I had this purpose and not that I would give anything to as you, you know, you know, I lost my son. I would give anything to have him back. But it's, it's just crazy to me how everything has unfolded. Just you know, and I, I just, everything I've done in my life has led me to what I'm doing now um, but like I. said, I would do anything to have him back. Uh, Kristen. I say the exact same thing. I feel like everything I did in my life was like preparation or training me for what I'm doing now. Now, I would as just assume not do any of it, uh, to have my daughter back. But my training in journalism, talking with grieving families, um, I was working on. Stories on the opioid crisis on the day my daughter died, you know? So I just think like, what was all that for? And here I am, you know, doing this work now here you are doing this work now, um, with a different perspective than me, but just as val, I mean, both just really valuable perspectives, but it's just, it's ironic, isn't it? Yeah, I would've never, ever imagined where I'd be right now. And, and, you know, and I'm so sorry for your loss of Emily.'cause it's just that day. My life changed that day. It was, it was like, I had the, you know, two chapters, completely different chapters in my life. the previous chapter was really trying to help my son. It was, you know, um, obviously everything I did to teaching and all of that, but really when my son, um, became addicted to substances and, and. All of that and developed schizophrenia. It was like my whole life was different then. But then after he, you know, after we lost him, then it was just, you know, what can I do? What can I do? I mean, after it took a, it took a few years for me, obviously, to gather myself together and, and figure out what I was gonna do. And I, I would ask him like, what can I do? What, just show me what I, you want me to do to try and help, because I know I have to help some, I have to do this. So, I think also what it should tell other people that if a journalist who knows how to research and is doing reporting on the opioid crisis, if a, a brain scientist is, is uh, doing the work and, and, and yet, and I've talked to of course, judges and doctors and so many other people who've had children with similar struggles and ended up losing their kids either because of mental health or substance use disorder. Uh, to overdose or fentanyl poisoning. Uh, if we can't stop it from happening, given all the knowledge, then how is anybody else supposed to stop it from happening to their children? That's right. And, and you know, there's so many times that I go into places, into schools, and are parents that I hear from some of the counselors here that, oh, we don't want anybody to tell them the name of a drug. You know, we don't want them to hear like the kids, like, we don't want her Oh. marijuana, or we don't, and I think, Oh. you know, it's, it's just that, that mentality of, well, it's not gonna happen to my kid, and it. Right, Yeah, and, and and it can happen to anyone. And we just, we need to reduce that stigma, that shame and, and those people who are suffering in addiction, know that it is a disease of the brain and that we need to be there for them and to help them. And it is almost impossible, you know, to, I mean, they're my heroes. People who. Are in recovery. They're my heroes and what they've been through and how they've been able to change, you know, through neuroplasticity to, to, to change their, the reward system, their brain, everything is, is phenomenal. Well, nobody understands that better than you, that this is not a moral failing or a character flaw, that it is truly. Something going on within the brain. The brain is forever changed. I call it like we understand diseases of the body, right? But we wanna deny diseases of the brain of the mind, right? We wanna say, oh, well that should just be, you should have more willpower. You should, you know, just do better. Um, just say no. All of those things that we know don't work. Right. right. And, and if you really look at within just even some of the, you know, MRI scans and things like that of, of brains of people who are in active addiction versus, you know, a healthy brain, it's right there. You can see it's like their brain has changed. it's, it's, you know, if we were to look at someone who has, you know, Alzheimer's disease, their brain has changed Right. it is a disease and we need to treat it as a disease and these people to let other people who have that, um, you know, that, that. Feeling like it is a moral failing. It's like these people, even if they wanted to stop, they can't. They can't stop. And so it is not a choice. It's not willpower, it's not all of that. It is a, a disease and like any other disease, we have to treat it and treat these people with dignity and respect. Are you ready to protect the next generation from the dangers of substance use? Emily's Hope has created a comprehensive K through 12 substance use prevention curriculum designed to educate, empower, and equip students with the tools they need to make healthy choices are age appropriate lessons, starting kindergarten and build through high school using science, real stories and interactive learning to help kids understand their bodies, brains, and risk of drug use. We're already reaching thousands of students across multiple states, and we're just getting started. Visit emily's hope edu.org to learn more and share our curriculum with your school administrators and counselors. At Emily's Hope, we believe prevention begins with education. Let's work together to keep our kids safe. Kristen had twin sons, Anders and Jonas from an early age. She noticed their fraternal twins had very different personalities. Jonas was outgoing while Anders struggled with social anxiety. When they got into middle school, Jonas was going off and making all these friends and Anders was, you know, having trouble and he would wanna stay in his room. He was very musical, very creative. He, he would draw, uh, amazing artist and he. he was looking for people that were kind of, you know, would, would accept him for who he was.'cause even his teachers used to say, oh, he's in Anders. land.'cause he was just kind of out, you know, like just in his own world and he would draw and do these things. And so he found some people who, um, accepted him For just who he was. And unfortunately they were. Started using, you know, marijuana and we lived in California where it was legal. Um, For adults. For adults, that's exactly right. right. Legal, um, medically, so not recreationally yet, but as kids go, you know, where there's a will, there's a way. So he started using that and of course against his parents, we were very, um. about, no, we don't want you smoking marijuana, all this stuff. Well. A lot of parents, you know, I, Kristen, a lot of parents think that's just a rite of passage, but you knew better because of your training, right? Well, I, I did know that, but the one thing I did not know, and these are all the things I look back of, you know, should have, could have, would've, you know, looking back, I didn't understand the difference in potency. I didn't realize how the potency, the percent THC, that psychoactive component in the marijuana had changed, not realizing how that was going to impact the developing brain. And honestly, you know, I. The whole system where THC interacts in the brain has really just started to be understood the 1960s on, so it's, it's relatively new and we're finding out more and more. But he had started to use and, um, showing symptoms of psychosis When you say symptoms of psychosis, explain to people what happened. Um, he started hearing voices. He, you know, thought that people were following him. He felt like, um, sometimes it may have been, you know, one of us, his dad or his mom, or against him, or we had someone, you know, ask someone to follow him. And, um, you know, in psychosis when it presents itself can be even as simple as, you know, the way cars are parked in a lot like the way all the cars are lined up that. That means that, you know, there's something in the universe or there's, there's something in the government. They have everybody park in their cars this way because this is gonna happen. so we, uh, took him to a psychiatrist and they, at the time it diagnosed him with schizophrenia, but he did ask the psychiatrist, asked by chance. Have you been smoking marijuana? He was 17 at this time. I said, have you been smoking marijuana? And he said, yes. And the psychiatrist had mentioned that we have seen now where, um, there is, and I don't wanna say it causes it, but there's an association between marijuana use and psychosis, or, you know. Potentially schizophrenia. so they put him on antipsychotics and he didn't like the way they made him feel. And that's when he started going into other substances because he just, he didn't feel creative anymore. He didn't like to draw or make music. And so he started using other substances and moved from Xanax to cocaine. Heroin. And um, that's how he died. Yeah. And so that's, uh, similar to Emily started using marijuana at a very young age, along with Xanax, and eventually moved on to heroin, and it was heroin laced with fentanyl. Um, that caused her death at 21. Uh, Emily at one point was diagnosed with ADD. Uh, I never really thought she had that because, you know, when she was little, I could sit down and she could read, you know, I could read like 10, 15 books to her in one setting. You know, she never seemed, I thought her attention was okay, but. Um, when we were searching for answers as to what was going on with her, um, she was prescribed an ADD Medica medication and didn't like it.'cause it said it slowed everything down and made it boring. Hmm. she's very artistic, very creative, um, very dramatic person. Uh, but some of these things as a parent, when you're navigating these, even when you're a scientist, right, it's just like. Okay, you are looking for answers, but there's no pat easy answer for your kid. And the other thing I will say before we talk about that is that now I have heard of thousands of stories of adolescents experiencing psychosis because of early marijuana use. Yes. And, and that is, it's, um, definitely the numbers of psychosis. I, I would say people coming into emergency departments or young kids coming into emergency departments with psychosis and the number of the percent of, of those kids who have cannabis on board, that has increased drastically. For parents in that situation, knowing what to do can certainly be difficult. Kristen said she and Ander's father had different ideas and one of her main recommendations to parents now is that both of them have to be on the same page. It was so difficult and, and it's one of the things I talk to when I speak to parents. It's like, you know this, this is your, your child's life and you, no matter what it is, you guys have to get on the same page here and obviously, obviously a page where, you're going to help your child and you're going to try and not let them do. I had. Kristen, I had the same issue with Emily's dad. We were not on the same page until it really was too late, until the very end when finally he said, yes, there's a problem here. And went with us. Well, we were meeting with the interventionist. Three days after she died, our intervention was supposed to be held, and finally I had gotten him on board. But up to that point. Um, no, I mean, it was, so, I think you're right. It's like you're battling this other person who sees things differently than you who's not willing to do the same, you know, not, not seeing it as a problem, not thinking you need to take some maybe drastic steps until it's too late. Right. And it, you know, and I had at that time, like the CVS pharmacist, which, you know, they're not supposed to do, but calling me and saying, your son is buying needles, you know, your son. Oh. and so having those conversations with my son. But at this time we had separated'cause we were just on such, just such different pages there. And, yeah, he had lived with his father during this time and it was Hmm. to try and get him to, Right. You know, when you have two parents that are telling you completely different things and I, I, I will say I was so, so, um, passionate, let's put it that way. Passionate with just trying to get him to stop, do anything. I will do anything. Um, too. but then I was told, you know. By his father that he doesn't, you know, if you tell him he is an addict, he's gonna be an addict and he doesn't have a problem and all of this. And I said, I'm not telling him he's an addict. I'm telling him that I'm here and I want to help him, and I would just want you to be on this page with Me so that we can go and get him help together.'cause he will do that. But it just, it was too. late. It was Yes, it is an impossible, and Emily also lived with her dad during this time and when she died. And so it was, it's just an impossible situation, um, because you're not just. Dealing with the person who is suffering from the addiction, you're dealing with a force working against you, trying to, what you think is do is the right thing, right? To get them help, to get them to do whatever it takes to keep them alive. Um, and, and in our case, you know, finally when, when I think he finally was like, yes, this is really bad, and agreed to go, and we worked on the intervention. It was too late. It was too late. At 22 years old, Anders died from a drug overdose. The loss along with Ander's Battle with substance use disorder was extremely difficult for the entire family, including his twin brother. He um, he had a very difficult time and, and he, uh, you know, was very angry, very, very angry. And, and it took him four or five years before he kind of, um. I think it's just now starting to heal. And, and we can actually talk about Anders, that's what's hard is, you know, it was before I couldn't even bring up his name and he didn't wanna hear anything about him. And um, you know, and one of the most difficult things about that too is like they share the same birthday and I just, Mm. hurts for him because. How, you know, it's like so bittersweet for him. It's like, oh, okay, here's my birthday, but I don't have my, you know, my twin brother here with me to celebrate. And it's, yeah, my heart hurts for him because I, you know, I can't, I can't imagine how difficult that is because there is, you know, from the get-go, I always said, you know, they shared, they were. Yeah, shared, yeah, their, you know, I could see them, like even in the ultrasound, I could see their little legs and they would be almost like going back and forth, kicking each other. So, uh, they were inseparable even though they were very different, but they. Yeah. You mentioned how different Jonas's personality was than Anders was. Did, was he also, was Jonas able to stay away from substances or maybe they didn't ever have a hold on him the way they did with, with. had his own, he had his own demons too. And, he is, um, doing much better now. But again, it was a very similar deal. And after, you know, we lost Anders, it was again, Which was shocking to me that it would be at the same like where someone who had gone through that already and seen his son die, not realize that, okay, we might wanna now, do some prevention. So Jonas is doing okay today, but had a, you know, a similar battle with him, and that is scary to me because I, I have talked to parents who've lost more than one child, um, in this epidemic. And, and I, I bet you really worried about losing your other son. Oh my gosh. You know, it, it was definitely something that I, uh, there were times and just every time I would call him and he wouldn't answer the phone or text, it was. Those constant things of just checking. And he's like, mom, oh my gosh, you know, I'm, I'm fine. I'm fine. Leave me alone. like, I, I, I apologize, but I just can't, you know, I've gotta know Right, right. yeah, Yeah. well now. I stalk my other children, when I say stock, their location, and I always tell them like, this is just for my own anxiety. Like I'm, they're adults. I'm never gonna like say, you know, what are you doing? Or something, I just, I like, I just wanna see like before I go to bed, oh, you made it home, okay. Or whatever. You know, because you do have so much anxiety when you lose a child, you, you realize it can happen. And, um, you don't wanna live your life in fear and you don't wanna limit what your other kids do. But it's just, it's a reality. You know, and the one thing that's been very interesting about, um, you know, like I just, I just lost my father this year, and it was so different. You and I, maybe you've experienced this in, you know, in some capacity where that was. It is like almost a, a comfort that he's gonna be with my, with my son now my dad. You know, it was like this feeling of, but also it was in order of the way it should be in life. As the Director of Outreach and advocacy programs for the Warren Center, Kristen now speaks at schools, community centers and recovery programs about the developing teenage brain, how stress, anxiety, and substance use affects it, and the dangers of high potency cannabis, fentanyl, and other drugs. I teach kids about the impact of stress and substance use, social media on the developing brain, the impact of, um, just also their self narrative, what they're speaking to, the how, what, you know, how do they, how do they talk to themselves? You know, we speak to ourselves more than we talk to anyone and is it positive or is it negative? And teaching them about neuroplasticity and how they have this really, this huge gift during adolescence. Neuroplasticity is, uh, you, you have a lot more during adolescence than you do as an adult. You still have it as an adult, but it's much easier to use. And so just trying to teach them how to make healthy connections and I definitely, um, talk to them about the impact of cannabis on the developing brain how, uh, THC lot of people think, okay, well, cannabis, it, marijuana, it grows from the ground and you know, all of this, but they. It is natural. It's great. It's wonderful. I've heard all those things. Yes. Yes. um, don't go in, um, my whole message is really trying to come from a compassionate side and an educational side, not the DARE program. It's trying to empower kids with knowledge about their developing brain and how beautiful their brain is and how vulnerable it is, but. How they can literally become who and how they wanna be as an adult if they learn these tools. You know, I give them a set of tools of wellbeing tools and how to practice that through neuroplasticity and just trying to help them to build a healthy brain into adulthood. because, you know, with my, uh, these are things that I wish I would've done with my kids when I was younger. Do you know what I mean? I, I. I knew about them, but after I lost Anders, I really learned about Oh, and uh. oh, I, That's what I said, like, what can I do Anders? What can I do to help other kids? And so that's kind of what fell in my lap. And I'd been doing it all along, but not, you know, not as focused with my full attention being in on it. Right. I I get it 100%.'cause I felt the same way. And, um, I, I always said that the Emily's Hope substance use prevention curriculum came about because when Emily was in third grade, I did a special for television on methamphetamine. And we showed the before and after of people who had used meth. We talked to people whose who had died, of families whose loved ones had died from meth use and people whose lives were ruined and. I had her watch that in third grade. It wasn't a special for television, it was pretty adult, and she was always anti meth. And I thought, well, she didn't get the whole message about all these substances and what they do to the brain. So the brain is the star of our curriculum. It really is starting in, we start in kindergarten, you know, trying to teach kids how to protect their brains and their bodies and what substances do to the brain, because I don't think we're doing enough of that at a young enough age. And so we do that in her honor. Um. great. is really something that I think is so important, um, what you are doing and, and, and our high school lessons now have so many lessons, so many things about cannabis, but we, I think parents often think it's just a rite of passage. Like, ah, everybody smokes weed. You know, you go to college campuses, there's so much weed around. But, um, we need to start taking that seriously. Um, the high levels of THC and what it can do to the developing brain. Well, and, and what? People don't, don't understand is, um, and I, the majority of people, is that the levels of THC that are in there, um, they pretty much carpet bomb the brain. And so. The place where THC interacts in the brain uh, it's like a catcher's mit or a parking spot where THC goes into, and that parking spot is one of the most abundant parking spots in the brain, And so when THC comes in, especially these high levels, it literally kind of, you know, carpet bombs the brain. And what it does is it changes the way neurons talk to each other. So neurons being the, The cells that actually communicate with one another, kind of like a game of, you know, of telephone where it tells something and, and the, the way neurons talk, they either like, let's dial up that activity or let's dial it down. And what THC does is it changes that communication wherever that parking spot is, when it enters the brain. And so when it fills the brain, what it does is literally. of the communication in the brain kind of goes haywire and it causes, um, it's, that's what gives the high feeling.'cause what this system where THC interacts its whole purpose is to keep the brain in, um, what we call homeostasis or in balance. It's meant to keep all the activity in the brain in balance. it does it, it's a beautiful, beautiful system. But it's always working on demand. Like, oh, there's a little too much gas over here in the brain, so let's put a little brake on, or let off the gas a little bit. Oh, there's too much brake over here. Let's, you know, let the brake off and put a little gas in so it does it perfectly. And if there's too much gas in one region of the brain, that might look like a seizure. If there's not enough, it might look like someone being unconscious. But when THC enters, it takes over all of that. So no long, you don't have this beautiful system operating to keep everything in check. It's like a, I, there was a scientist, Matthew Hill and I love, 'cause he said it's like a thermostat. that's exactly what it is like in the brain. You know, if it's too cold, you, the heater turns on. If it's too hot, you know the AC turns on. This is what the system is doing, and it's doing only it on demand when it's needed, but when THC comes in, takes over all that communication and the prefrontal cortex where, you know, your area of executive function and planning, decision making, impulse control, that there's a study that's been done, um, by Alba as a scientist and looking at. Measuring the, the thickness of the prefrontal cortex during adolescence from the ages of 14 to 19. And they looked at kids who used cannabis and kids who did not, and the kids who used cannabis, they, they, they took everybody and measured their thickness of their prefrontal cortex at the beginning of the study. And they had to make sure everybody had about the same thickness. Everybody looked the same. And then they followed'em for these five years. And what they found out is that. The kids who used cannabis, their prefrontal cortex thinned 30% more on average than kids who did not use. And that all comes from just changing that communication because there's this beautiful time in the brain called pruning, and that pruning is meant to build the ultimate architecture of the brain, like the final architecture of the brain. And it ha, it's on a use it or lose it principle. if there are connections in the brain that aren't being used, you know, the brain says, okay, we don't need that anymore. We're, let's get rid of it. So it's basically just making sure the brain is, has this beautiful communication network. It's happening, um, efficiently, you know, all of this and, and not, you know, taking these wrong turns everywhere. But what happens is that when cannabis comes in, it causes, uh, more of that pruning, but not, not where it's needed. And so what we're seeing now in science is that it's actually happening, um, in places where maybe it shouldn't be happening. And so that's what's causing this thinning of the prefrontal cortex. And normally, you know, it should thin from synaptic pruning, but not 30% more than those kids aren't using. So it, it's a problem. And you can't get that back. Have you lost a loved one to overdose or fentanyl poisoning? I'd like to invite you to share their story on our new Emily's Hope memorial website called More Than Just a Number. They were our children, siblings, cousins, husbands, wives, aunts, uncles, and friends. So much more than just a number. You can submit a memorial today on more than just a number.org. And so you're setting yourself up by smoking marijuana at these young ages. You're setting yourself up for more difficulty down the road because it's harder to gain that back. Right. And there's also, um, not only in the prefrontal cortex, but also the hippocampus. And the hippocampus is where memories are stored and, and, and there and kind of, it's like a, kind of like a, library of memories that goes through and they, uh, there's thinning in that as well. So, um, that's. You know, I, I would, I would think that, uh, most people just on tv, they make fun of people who get stoned. They're kind of like, not their memory's not so great, Stupid. Yeah. Yeah. You're stupid, right? Yeah, But, uh, but it's important for these things, to be known. And, you know, when you look at the cannabis indu industry, a $34 billion industry, uh, you know, from last year, and, but they're targeting kids and they. They're. They target them with, you know, wrappers that look like candy or gummies. And, and what is gonna happen is because those kids' brains are still developing, it's so easy for them to become addicted because their reward center is more heightened. There's more activity in their reward center of their brain, which means they're gonna get more bang for their buck when they do it anyway. And there is definitely science that shows, um, a, uh, that it is a gateway drug. Moving Yes, and, I'm telling you, every person I've. Talk to who had an opioid use disorder started with cannabis, including my daughter. Yes. so for people to say it's not a gay, I mean, sure some people can use marijuana and not go on to other things. That certainly happens, but it certainly is for many people. And so when you explain all this in the scientific terms, and I love hearing that, does that resonate with kids? You know, um, kids, I always tell'em because I mean, I, of course I make it a little simpler and things like that, but not too much. The one thing that kids will tell me afterwards, or I will hear from counselors there, they ask, what did you like about it? They said, 'cause that she didn't dumb it down, that she didn't, you know, that she gave it to us. And because I always tell 'em, it's like, you can get this, you can understand this. I wanna show you, you know why it is that. Of course I don't want someone to smoke marijuana, but it's like, why? It is, you should wait until you know your brain is developed if you're gonna do something like that. And, they appreciate, I think being told, at least empowering in them with that knowledge instead Right. don't do it because you know you're Right. Well, we know, we know. Just say, no, didn't work. We have to give the kids the why. Why, why should you say no? And I think most kids starting at a young age, I've always believed, wanna protect their bodies and their brains. Right. and that's why we start so young with those conversations. But, um, I just, I think your knowledge is just fascinating in the fact that you're. You know, using your combined knowledge along with your personal experience to really reach people is incredible. What helps you most in your grief? Uh, I found that, uh, I've, um. During the time when my son was in like full fledged Um. I was, um, I can hardly remember a lot of that when I I, I, I feel you. I feel the same. Yes. There's things I think I've blocked out. I mean, I, I don't think about really, I don't dwell on, I can't. It's just too painful. Yeah. Exactly. after he died, um, I went back to work. Probably about three weeks afterwards. um, And one of the reasons is that my other son was, yeah, I mean, it, it was not, it was a, it was a really hard situation. That's what I'm gonna just say that it was a really hard situation. He wasn't really speaking to me and, and, you know, just, um, was with his dad and it was really hard. Um, so I. What I, what I did is I worked, and so with that, I, I don't think I really allowed myself to grieve Hmm. I don't recommend that for anybody. I highly recommend going and getting help. And I did. I did, you know, went to a hospice type of person to um, about grief. And, but then what happened was I, um, I do, I meditate, I do, and I've always done that. The one thing that really, really helped me is I am, um. I had a gratitude journal and it was one thing just trying to stay positive while my son was in active addiction. And I, uh, days after he died, I forced myself to write in it. uh, I, I, you know, I couldn't find anything that I really wanted to write about, but I did, you know, was a cup of coffee, you know, just, just my dog, something, you know, whatever that might be. And then. Then it came to moving on, and now I find, like when I speak, the minute that photo comes up of him the screen, I'll start crying Now as soon as I see it, I, I, have just a little, I'm talking, but I start to tear up like this and I. And it's like this little, you know, relieving a little pressure every time I speak and it, and it helps. And then my other son has been a champion for what I'm doing and I Oh. that. And that has helped me a lot. And so we, um, you know, it was one of those things and, and I, I think what happened with him is he also was in addiction at that time. Um, Now he's, he's doing really well and, uh, he totally believes in, in what I'm doing and that has allowed me to, I think, just to breathe. And maybe at some point you two will share the stage together and speak or go into schools together and speak. I don't know if you're there at that point yet, but what a great perspective from a young person who has been through it with his twin, with, um, his own struggles. And you as a mom and as a brain scientist, I mean, is just. What better combination could you have? And you're, when you talked about gratitude, I have to say that I was, uh, you know, having panic attacks after Emily died, and I, I only had a few panic attacks before in my life, you know, randomly here and there over difficult situations. But, um, I, I forced myself to just calm, just what am I grateful for. Okay. I'm grateful. For this house I'm in, you know, I'm, I'm grateful. I'm breathing. I'm just looking for anything. Right. I just remember the moment when I realized that gratitude was the, I'm not gonna call it an antidote for grief, that's not the right word, Yeah. it is a, um, it is something that can definitely help. It, it, it was the one thing, and, and I tell just even people who aren't grieving, keep a gratitude journal because it is one of those things that when you find what, you know, I, every day you open your eyes. It's a gift. And, and I think that. Okay, Losing Anders was the one thing that I, it put my whole life in perspective. ready. afraid to die, actually, because I think I get to be with him. You know? It's like those kind of things that just, he's taught me so much from above. And I certainly think a lot about, more about my own death than I ever have, you know, following Emily's death. And it does if, if you allow it, it puts your life in perspective. Now, it doesn't happen for everybody who has a loss like this, but if you allow it, it certainly can. I think Um. Yeah. So thank you so much. Thank you for coming on the podcast and for sharing your family's story, and I, I'm so sorry for everything that you've been through. I am grateful for the knowledge you have and the work you're doing today. Well, I'm really grateful for all you're doing too and um, I hope we can continue to speak offline too, because I think you and I have a very similar story. And thank you for listening to Grieving Out Loud. You can find more episodes anytime on our website, Emily's Hope Charity. We've also included links to episodes we think you may enjoy in the show notes. One of those is with a mom who blames cannabis induced psychosis for her son's death. And he said, mom, I just want you to know that you were right. And I'm like, about what? I didn't know what we were talking about. And he said about the marijuana. He said, you probably don't remember, but you told me many years ago that marijuana would hurt my brain. And it's ruined my mind and my life. And I am so sorry, mama. I love you. Again, check out that full episode with Laura Stack in the show notes. While you're there, we'd really appreciate it if you'd take a moment to rate and review this podcast. It helps us further our mission to raise awareness about the opioid epidemic, prevent substance use disorder, and connect families with the help they need. Thank you for listening. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Wallenberg, king and Kaylee Fitz.