Welcome to Grieving Out Loud. I'm your host, Angela Kenkey. Whether we wanna think about it or not, loss is an unavoidable part of life. We lose games, we lose jobs and heartbreakingly, we lose people we love. Today's guest on grieving Out Loud, Marsha Earhart knows that pain all too well. She experienced 17 major losses before even reaching adulthood. One of, uh, my neighbors driving home from school. The bus ran the stop sign and ran over her. Uh, my neighbor across the street drank, raid, and killed himself. Um, another young man in our school, he and another young man were at the beach and Atlantic Beach Storm came up out of nowhere but capsized One lived, one died. But Marsha believes all of those early losses may have been preparing her for the unimaginable heartbreak she would face later in life. Losing not just one, but two children. One in a tragic car crash and the other to a brutal murder. I could feel depression for each loss. I just felt like, oh my gosh, I'm losing more and more of myself. But how does Marsha find the strength to keep going after so much heartbreak? In this episode of Grieving Out Loud, she opens up about her journey, what her losses have taught her about life, and what she wants others to know about finding grace in the midst of grief, a message she shares in her new book. They're with me, they're not gone, they're just not physically present where I can go, give them a hug and I can, you know, dance with them and eat with them and engage in great conversation. But they're present with me because they've left something that is embodied in my spirit. Marcia, welcome so much to grieving out loud. I, I really appreciate you being here. And I have to say, just learning a little background of your story, it is really overwhelming the losses that you have faced. I, I, I know you're gonna tell us a little bit more, but facing losses throughout your entire life. But the, but the most prevalent. Gigantic losses of two sons and, and I'm so sorry that you've had to endure your family and you have had to endure all that. Well, first of all, Angela, I wanna thank you. Um, I think there's a sisterhood we share, and I think any parent who loses a child, they don't like to join this club, but it is a club that only we really can understand, uh, the gravity and the depth of what one goes through in losing a child. So thank you so much for having me here. I always say it's a club that you don't wanna join, and unfortunately you can never leave once you've That's right. it's like the hotel, That's right. it's, it's not something anybody would choose and certainly not choose Yeah. So let's, give me a little bit of background on, on the loss of your first son, Sterling. And you lost him at 21, the same age. I lost Emily, but a few. He was a little older a few years before I lost Yeah. Uh, Sterling was 21. He was, uh, in law school and um, we actually had been with him the evening that the fatal accident later happened. Uh, he was working on a fundraiser and. Sterling was very active and kind of burned the candle at both ends'cause he just really loved to get involved, was doing his classes and we left that night and it was love. You see you later. And I woke up at one 50 in the morning and had the most horrific sense in my spirit of something being wrong. And I came back to the bed and just really sat with the Lord and just said, Lord, I feel there's something very wrong. And he said, I've got you. And he said, just stay with me. And then at two o'clock we had a pounding on the door and we were in a coach home and my husband got up and went and looked out and there were two police officers down at the door. And as we went and sat. Or or went to the door. I knew I knew and I just kind of stood back and sat down on one of the steps. And there was some time there,'cause my husband was in his boxers and the police officer said, you may wanna go get dressed. So my husband went and got dressed and went and I looked at him and I said, is this about my son? And he said, we're gonna wait till your husband returns. No emotion, just, I mean, very stoic. And when my husband returned, he said, Mr. And Mrs. Earhart, uh, is your son Robert Sterling Earhart? We said, yes he is. They said, well, he's been in a tragic accident. He died instantly. He will not be returning home. And I was really processing in my head with the Lord. Because remember I had already spoken to him and he said, don't leave me. And the Lord said, I have you. I told you I would have you and I won't leave you. And there was like a reel in my head of all the times of preparation for this moment, which really it was. A movie in my head of every single conversation, every movie, every divine intervention of his preparation for Sterling to go home. You, you were prepared for Sterling's death. Um, no one has ever prepared, I, I should rephrase that, but you felt like over the years you had been or being prepared for something like this to happen. Now I'm gonna. Um, share my own experience that we knew that something was horribly wrong with my daughter. She was using substances and we didn't know exactly what it was, right. She wasn't being honest with us. And the reason why I had leapt into action and started planning intervention and we were actually gonna hold her intervention three days before she died was because I had a vision in my head of her in a Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. just thought, oh my God, this is so serious. And, and so can you explain to people when you talk about. You know the Lord talking to you, you're having a personal conversation with God, and I don't think everyone can understand what that means and what that is. Is that a voice in your head? Is that images, like I just explained an image to you that I saw. What is that exactly? Well, I mean, it's a multitude things. Um, when we have a relationship with someone, we can communicate in different ways. So just like you and I are talking, but we could also text, email. I could send you a gift. Um, I could kind of have something sent to you just to let you know that I'm thinking of you not putting my name on it. Um, I could send you a message through other means. And, and having a relationship with Father Jesus and Holy Spirit is very much like that. They do speak, you know, in scripture it says that my sheep hear my voice. So there is a voice to be reckoned with, but it's a spirit. It's also a move of a spirit. It can be a vision, just like you were given. You were given that vision, you saw that casket. It puts you into action. What I can say is because I work with people who are grieving losses and have been through trauma, many parents tell me that their children either thought they would not. Live through their entire life, or they didn't think they would, but they dismissed it. They didn't wanna hear it, and they just moved on. Because someone asked me, how can a God be so unkind to tell you that? And I said, how can my father not be so kind? Because it's just like, as parents, we prepare our kids for bad news, bad situations. It's no different. My father loves me, so he's gonna prepare me. He can if I'm willing to listen. And you had a, a, a premonition, so to speak, that some, that you wouldn't have sterling Yes. you know, y your entire life. Uh, that happened day three of when he was, after he had been born. Uh, I was rocking him and it was early in the wee mornings, I was breastfeeding him. And the Lord said, I need you to know he's a gift. And I said, I know he is. Thank you. And he said, but. He's not gonna be here throughout your life. He will leave earlier than you. And so that's where it really started. And I had to dialogue with the Lord.'cause really, honestly, I thought was his postpartum. I did. I, Right. I'm like, That's, yeah. mean, I think, I think maybe a secular person or some a, a physician, somebody might say, oh, oh, just dismiss that you are, you are just suffering from postpartum depression. You know, you're, this isn't, this isn't gonna be reality. Right, and I mean, so I did it and the Lord said, no, you're not having postpartum. And, but he was, he's very gracious and gentle and he said, but what I want you to do is enjoy the gift. I want you to live fully in the gift and receive the gift and impart in the gift. Of your son. Were you able to sort of forget about this as time went on and, and, and not dwell? I mean, that's the one thing if, if you think something bad is gonna happen. It's hard not to dwell in the, in that space. You know that, oh my God, what? When is this shoe going to drop? I think that is humanity that we want to try and resolve and be in control of outcomes. Yeah. because of the 17 losses I'd had by the time I was 18. I understood something about the brevity of life. I understood the sovereignty of God in situations where one needed to relinquish because it was out of one's control, and there were some horrific losses that I experienced. And so in that process, it was teaching me I'm not in control, so I didn't forget it. No. But it didn't come front and center. So I wasn't a controlling mom, I wasn't a helicopter parent like a lot of our generation, I didn't do that. Um, I, I just abided in the Lord and then Sterling was two. And um, the Lord had brought something up to me that night when he was speaking to me when Sterling was three days old, and he said. He brought back a poem. If I leave you, if I, if I come to take this child of mine whenever, if he's, you know, 10 or 20 or, and he went through years and he said, you know, will you love me when I come to call him back? And it the, and this poem I had heard when I was 16, 17 in high school. And it was so profound that it etched literally into my heart. And I remember as a teenager listening to that point, and it, it, it just, it took me in and I thought, oh my goodness. And I listened with every absolute ability that I could. And I thought, oh Lord, yes. You know, when one has a child. It is a gift and we have to be willing to surrender that, not realizing that he was gonna speak these very words back to me. You know, when I was 30 years old, having had my first child. And so I looked everywhere for that poem. I could not find it. And here we, you know, we got the internet, but I'm not able to find it at Sterling was two. We went to a conference and a speaker spoke. He read that poem and I mean, I just, my heart just leapt out of me. And the Lord said, get that poem. And I tracked the speaker down and said, could I please, could you send me that poem? I so need that. He said, sure, he did. And then the Lord said, I want you to put it under Sterling's picture. I want the poem broken down into three parts. I put it under his picture and it freaked people out when they came in our home because it's about your child going back to be with Jesus. If you'd like to read that poem, you can find it in this episode. Show notes. While you're there, we'd love for you to take a moment to rate and review our podcast, and please share it with friends and family who may also find it helpful. Do you have an idea for a podcast episode? We'd love to hear from you. You can also find my contact information in the show notes. Are you ready to protect the next generation from the dangers of substance use? Emily's Hope has created a comprehensive K through 12 substance use prevention curriculum designed to educate, empower, and equip students with the tools they need to make healthy choices are age appropriate lessons, starting kindergarten and build through high school using science, real stories and interactive learning to help kids understand their bodies, brains, and risk of drug use. We're already reaching thousands of students across multiple states, and we're just getting started. Visit emily's hope edu.org to learn more and share our curriculum with your school administrators and counselors. At Emily's Hope, we believe prevention begins with education. Let's work together to keep our kids safe. You mentioned 17 losses, you know, growing Mm-hmm. Um, where does your deep faith come from? What do you attribute it to? I. I attribute it to my need for someone more powerful that has the ability to speak into the things of this life. And as a child, I really did know the presence of Jesus in my life and Holy Spirit and the Father, and I felt loved. Knew my validation from him. I was bullied most of my life. Um, and because I did see life very differently because of the brevity of what I'd already seen. So I wasn't a silly child, and so I was made fun of because I really knew that life could be gone in an instant. So I didn't wanna do those things that other kids did because I knew the consequences. That came with that and I'd already had such deep wounds within me, yet the Lord was there and he tenderly, you know, was present in my pain. But my parents showed me how to grieve well. They really helped me with that and depressing into him and his word, and that's what I did. Angela, I would go to his word. And I really lived in the Psalms a lot of that time because I could feel depression for each loss. I just felt like, oh my gosh, I'm losing more and more of myself. Give us an example of some of the losses you experienced, uh, out of those 17. Just a couple. Um, it's a lot. yeah, it is. Um, and this is really all in middle school and high school. One of, uh, my neighbors driving home from school. The bus ran the stop sign and ran over her. Uh, my neighbor across the street drank, raid, and killed himself. Um, another young man in our school, he and another young man were at the beach and Atlantic Beach Storm came up out of nowhere but capsized One lived, one died. Um, our neighbor, another neighbor across the street was ski gliding, 23 years old, had just finished at university. Of North Carolina State, an amazing smart man. Uh, we had a place across each other in Raleigh, North Carolina. And then we had a place next to each other at Lake Gaston, North Carolina. And my dad happened to be outside 'cause he was very close to this family and the, and he came inside and he was crying. And my mom said, will, what's wrong? And he said, I just saw a little. I just saw a little WA just, I just saw, and he couldn't even speak, and he said he just dropped over 300 feet ski gliding and hit the water. And he said, I've gotta go tell his dad. And so he walked over to let his dad and they got on the boat to go out to where he was and he died. I mean, these are life changing moments. These are not minuscule just. Someone was old and they lived a wonderful life and they passed. Very impactful. Especially at a young age Yes, being surrounded by loss, which is unusual, right? Yes, everybody's path. And I could see. People going either way, either moving toward God and faith or the opposite direction. What is it that's in you that made you move towards your faith? I think it's just the love of the father knowing who I am and my, and my, my being. That I was created by him and for him, and that he really has abundant life for me. I. But why do you think, how do you live with the unknown? You know, not understanding why these things happen, why this had to happen to your son, why you got the premonition or the, the message that he would not live a long life. And, and, to me, and I think to many people listening, it's difficult I, I, I've always been a curious person. I became a journalist because of that, Why do these things have to happen? Right? What why does, why is the suffering so prevalent and, and and much more pronounced for some people than others, I don't know that we can really give an answer to that. What I can say is that ever since the fall in the garden, we live in a broken, flawed world, and because of the gracious love that our father has for us, we get to choose. We have free will. So some things are imparted on us by just the circumstances life, other things we bring upon ourselves because of our life choices. And so I think in that situation, and this is where we go back to sovereignty, why would God allow one to live, one to die? Well, we had these conversations. I, I talked to the Lord about everything. And when that night, or that morning when the officers were there. I asked the Lord, can I go pray over Sterling? I know you can resurrect him. And he said, no, he's home. I need you to let him stay with me. And I just, and he said, and you need to know that where seeds fall on the ground, there will be new life and there will be people that are healed and that come to know. Healing through this. I didn't know what he meant at that time, but I trusted him. And now we have this, you know, thriving nonprofit where it reaches out to people who are grieving and have gone through a multitude of losses in their life where they're being able to be revived and resuscitated and have a redemption in their life and have healing. So. and that's your work through the Sterling Rose Yes. And so will God take one for others to be blessed, nourished? Absolutely. And interestingly enough, my second son, the one that was murdered five years later, he was very undone because he said, why didn't he take me? My life is nothing compared to Sterling's.'cause my son at the time was a drug dealer. So he's sitting there thinking, why would Sterling, who's living for the Lord, and you know, really witnessing and ministering, why would God take him? And I looked and I said, whoa, that's not how our father looks at, at his children. All of us are deeply loved and deeply valued, and you are loved and valued. He's not looking at you and going, well, okay, you've been, you're, you've been a drug dealer, so you should go. That's not the way it is. I said, what if Sterling going home brings you to a saving faith? Well, guess what? It did bring him to a saving faith. He stopped selling drugs. He stopped using. He was a user. He almost died, and he stopped So, his lifetime you've experienced that as well, but, and this is Marc that Yes, it is. And in 2019, tell me what happened now, Marc had been, as you said, on, on the wrong path, right? Selling drugs, using drugs. Um, know, it strikes me that obviously you're raising your kids in a very Christian home. The message you have for them is one of faith. And, um, this can happen in any home. Absolutely. to reiterate to people. Well, we're, we're not in a bubble. We, we aren't. Where you aren't bulletproof, we're not. think a lot of times people think, oh, you must have done something wrong for your kid to go down that path. And I think we have so many people listening to this podcast who've lost someone, uh, a child to drug overdose or fentanyl poisoning and um, you know, they can come from any home is what Right. That's right. to people. Well, and I wanna make something very clear, just because we raise our children with a faith-based. Background and we live that everybody gets to choose. And we always told our kids, you, you, you're not coming in with me on my skirt tail. Faith has to be a substance for you. That's real. You have to know the father, son, and Holy Spirit for yourself. It has to be relational. It's not about religion. A lot of people are about religion. I'm not. This is about a, this is about a relationship. So we talked about everything. We talked about when our son was dealing drugs, like this really is not the path that's gonna flourish for you, but in 20. 15, or I guess it was 2014 actually, when strolling passed. It was four months later. Marc stopped selling. He stopped doing drugs. He turned his life around and it was a slow process 'cause he was angry with God. He was angry. And so, you know, that's okay. Bring your anger. But we are not guaranteed. And this is something I wanna make very clear to your audience. God and I had this conversation. Marc and John were two of our children out of three out of five that were adopted, three of our children were adopted, and Marc and John came with a lot of background and just some real trauma. And I remember being on my face asking the Lord. Okay, you asked me to preserve our other children, our other two, like their moral integrity. And these kids have come in here and they have absolutely imploded their moral integrity. Why would you do that? And the Lord said, because I have a perfect plan and I need you to be surrender to me. And this isn't about you. You don't have control. I do, but you need to trust me in the plan. And be surrender to that. And that is when I stopped being controlling because I'm not guaranteed because I do A, B, C, that I'm going to get DE, F. And I think parents set out thinking that, well, if we do this and we teach our kids these things, they're gonna make the right decisions. That's free will. I don't want my kids doing something because just because I said it, I want them to have to wrestle with that for themselves. For it to come real for them. Wow. that's a, that's a really good point because I've often said, you know, what I struggled with with organized religion is raise a child up the way they should go. And if you feel as a parent, you're taking steps A, B, and C, and here you're really. By adopting these children from, you know, a difficult situation, you're almost in that savior position, right? Like you're gonna save them from a life that could have been much, much worse, but you really can't save someone no, you can't. And I think, I think that is where I work with and more women than not, that are enablers and codependent and they have this Jesus savior complex, it's called a savior complex. And I, our society has really not equipped women and our society well, that we cannot save another person. We can't. We all get to make choices as to how we do things. What we can do is pray for them and encourage them in the ways that we can express our love to them and, and delight in them and show them their value. Because most of the time when they're doing these things, there's, they feel devalued. They feel shame. They feel a sense of guilt. They're trying to run, they're trying to hide. They're trying to find something to fill them because there's a deep void in them. As Mark battled substance use disorder, Marsha says she faced some of the hardest choices in her life. She continued to love her son with all her heart, but she also knew she had to set boundaries. The reality was he wasn't allowed to come to the house because he would expose our family, we'd meet him in public. So, you know, if my husband and I die in public because somebody we're coming after him, that's one thing. But to come to our house and for them to know where we live, it was another thing. So we were very conscientious about the choices we made, but we, we didn't enable. We didn't. We didn't. We didn't have this enabling relationship with him. And I think when parents have a situation with their children like that, the propensity is to enable, to rescue them, to go and bail them out. We weren't balers because if I'm bailing you, then you're not gonna turn to the Lord. This really. I did that. You know, I did a lot of tough love things with Emily, um, but always approached her from a standpoint of love, even though it was hard because I had younger siblings at home and some Yep. and things she was doing, I'm, I'm like, well, this can't be Yep, exactly. I understand that. That's really hard to do, though. That's not It isn't. But I mean, I love that you made that tough choice because you're protecting the rest of your children. We have to, our home is to be a place that is safe and secure. And that's what we told our kids. Hey, if you're making these choices, it becomes unsafe for the rest of our family. And when you were growing up, was it safe? Yes. Mom. Yes. Dad. It was safe. So we're gonna have the same environment for them. Right. And to do it in a way that isn't punishing or isn't, and through anger, I That's right. Yes. And so what happened Marc Marc was on a really great path. He had just called my husband out the week before. So excited about what God was doing in his life, where he was, his journey. He had made some great decisions, some really great decisions, um, to move forward in his life in new ways. He was receiving the new things. And that's what he called to express. And I was just delighting with him and enjoying, um, all that he was sharing. And my husband also had those conversations privately with him and just, it was wonderful. And then this guy who had dated the girl that my son was with, he had been estranged for over a year and a half, lived in another state, flew on a plane. Flew into Florida and got his gun from a friend and he went and set out to kill them and he murdered both of them leaving behind their six month old baby girl in a house. And she was there for over 40 hours unattended. Oh, that is a horrific, horrific story. And you already, in one sense, I mean, I know your faith has bolstered you through the loss of Sterling and has helped you survive his loss. on one sense, you're already knocked down. Because grief of, of losing a child doesn't leave you, then you have this second horrific thing happen in your family. How did you back from that? I honestly would say again, it was really the strength of the Lord and we had already been, God had already been redeeming in those five years. The healing was very evident, and I praise God, because I think I can be very real here with your listeners. I don't know if had happened a year before, whether we would've all made it My youngest son, who was 12, struggled with depression and suicidal thoughts, and that had, in 2019, that fall was the first fall that we could celebrate our birthdays and Sterling's birthday without a mental implosion. He had had healing to that point, which was so great, and he was no longer suicidal. It was within two weeks of that, that Marc and his girlfriend were murdered.. And so as a family, we came together, we prayed, we pressed in, we supported one another, and we had an incredible community. Friends that really prayed and lifted us up. I, we, we were just being carried throughout the process of the journey, and, but it was exhausting. I can tell you again, when a child dies, you die. You do die. I need everyone to understand you die as to who you were in that life because you're not gonna be that person again. Your family dies to who they were, how they existed. That family's never gonna emerge. So we were all facing a death again. So we all died yet again. When Marsha's first child died, she says her community wrapped her in support, but when she lost Mark it was different. Some friends even pulled away. Marsha learned. That's not unusual for parents whose children die, especially from murder. Quite often, and I know you know this, we do not have a society that knows how to walk alongside Grievers well. At all. It doesn't matter how your child is, has gone, they just don't know how. However, with a murder, there's more, I think for the overwhelmness, for the person receiving that. I don't know how to. Be present. I don't know how to minister. I don't really, this is awkward. This is uncomfortable. And, and for us, I think it's because we'd had two losses of two adult children. I feel like they feel like it's contagious. Yes, I think you're right. I think people don't want to go there in their mind with the potential that this could hap something like this could happen in your So I didn't personalize it and we can't, and I want, that's what I want your audience to. You cannot personalize that it is not personal. It really isn't. It's their their own uncomfortableness and their inability to have tools to be able to be present and love you. Well, It feels personal when friends drop off or even family members. It feels personal. Um, but you're, but you're right. It is always about the other person and their own ability to either extend beyond themselves or their own fears. Right? Absolutely. So we had a life celebration for Marc and Naples and we, we had had one for Sterling and Naples, and then we had one in Raleigh, North Carolina. We just couldn't have another life celebration for Marc. But what we had was a dinner. To celebrate his life, for people to come, um, to give honor, to speak if they wanted. My family didn't come. Oh. They, they, they had other things to do. I had friends that didn't come. And, you know, I love those people, but I understand that was, that was a place for them that they couldn't enter in. And I, they, if they can't do that, then I don't want them to do that. I, I do always stress though that the most important thing you can do for a grieving person is just to show up. It is just your presence. It doesn't matter what you say, but your presence helps that person move forward. That your presence helps that person know that someone cares. And. That makes me really sad that people couldn't do that because it was such a horrific murder and, um, involved a child being left behind. I'm sure all those things just just trouble people so much that they don't know what to do with their own emotions surrounding it. I think that, I also think because of Marc's background and some of the things I think that had to do with it because not everybody, yeah, it's judgment. Not everybody knew where he was. Not everybody knew that he was on the other side and or was still in the process. And here's the reality. They're not given an answer to me. So that's on them. And I don't, I don't, again, I'm not personalizing that I know the truth of what was and what is and the Lord does, and that's sad to me that we have that kind of judgment when somebody does something and someone's experiencing a loss, that we wanna stand in a place of judgment instead of being the hands and the feet of the comforters Yeah. that we should be. Right, right. We all have laws. that there's, there the problem in our society today, we've got many people giving voice, you know, to Christian values, but really is how you show up for people in cruelty and judgment is not part of No, And I think that's what troubles me most of what I see a lot happening on social media in society is that cruelty is, is almost celebrated in it is. And I, I worry, I worry about that. Well, but that's also very much a part of Revelation. They, they celebrate over killing someone and they're having a party in the street while someone's being killed. Well, we've already been seeing that. If we look around the United States when people are being beaten and they're being kicked, people are literally filming and celebrating that there's something, a disconnect between the fact that we are human beings Right, experiencing the same emotions, the same. Kind of pain in life, and we can be present to be healing for other people just by our presence. Right, right. I am curious to know what happened to the perpetrator in those murders of your son and his girlfriend. Well, we're waiting for that too. He's still sitting in jail. He's not even gone to court. Oh, really, since 2019. Yes. He's been sitting in jail. justice. Um, we keep seeing that there's a different date changed. Um, he has not even, they have not even had him appear in court for any kind of, um, case at all. So we shall see. Wow. And that I, that's not uncommon, Marsha. I hear that story over and over again from parents waiting for cases, you know, to be resolved and it taking years. And so that's, that's so unfortunate. When you don't have that resolution, how do you cope with that? Well, when Marc passed and, uh, this was, you know, murder, we prayed and the Lord said, do not involve yourself in the trial or any of this. Give it to me 'cause I'm the ultimate judge. It'll be dealt with. It will probably not be dealt with the way that you would like on this side of the cross, but trusted in me. And that's what we've done. I mean, uh, you know, we have a calling and I, the Lord wants us to be busy about the things that have life. And so we're busy about the things that, that yield life, that produce life. Um, I don't want to become consumed and didn't. And the Lord didn't over following and, and beating down the doors that this trial needs to happen. Um, it's on God's timing and I believe that, and I trust that. And if he does get off, he may get off temporarily, but he will not get off the rest of his life because God will deal with him. And I trust that implicitly and I live in forgiveness of him. I, I'm really grieve over. Um. Him and I pray for him because not only do does my son and the mother of um, her children, that he the girlfriend, they are not here to be parents to their children, but neither is that young man.'cause he has children too. So he's not even able to be the father that is needed. Everybody's, everybody suffers, even the perpetrator, and their family and their friends, everybody. Everybody here becomes Mm-hmm. a part of this death, a part of, you know, they're all hurting. And so I grieve. I grieve for his mother because his mother has stood by him. And I think his parents, we wanna believe our children wouldn't do something. So Hein. When Mark died in 2019, he left behind two children, one of them with Stephanie, who was also murdered. And so are you, are you involved in their lives? no. I mean, he wasn't married to either one of those and they get to choose and yes, we probably could have pursued, we're not gonna do that. We, we love and respect, um, the families that are raising. Those precious ones and we pray for them. And one day, hopefully as they get older, they would love to have a relationship. We'd love that. But again, I, you know, I don't know the things that are shared, the things that are, I don't know, and they're hurting. I mean, their families are hurting, you know, they're, everybody, you know, suffered through this. And so our job is not to make them suffer more. I don't feel that I have to be that grandparent for my grandchildren. I would like to have had those experiences with them growing up. However, I have the greatest, you know, the greatest thing that I can do for them is pray for them. And that's what I do and I do that. I, Yeah. How is the rest of your family doing now today, your other children and your husband? um, one son who's 30, he still runs. He's still running, running from the pain, running from the grief, running from the trauma, and he trauma bonds with people. So that's how he has lived most of his life. He was one of the ones we adopted and he has lived that way ever since he came in. He trauma bonds, and even though he's had multiple opportunities to have healing, we have to choose healing. You know, no one's gonna force healing. And, and that's one of the things I love about our, what we do and the modality we do. Jesus doesn't force healing. He gives us a choice as to whether we wanna live in the freedom and we want to exchange that for something new. So he's, that's where he is. And then my 27-year-old, she has a thriving business. She's doing great. She's got an incredible relationship with the Lord. She lives out in her calling and it's just very joyful. My 23-year-old son, uh, he has his own business as well. He's a singer songwriter, um, producer and a lot. He actually has a Spotify and Apple count. He makes music that really resonates with people who have struggled through pain and trauma and, um, just his life is thriving Now. He's, he's living in forgiveness of. You know, 'cause for him it was very hard. I mean, to, to forgive. He's living in the forgiveness of the murderer he's living, reconciled to this is part of life. Is it a part of life we like? No, but it's a part of life and he knows how to use those tools and, um, make it something that's resonates life from it. Now, um, my husband, um. I think there's still some struggle and just the, the aspect of some grief that remains there. Um, that can be a hindrance to living in the fullness of life, but he's working on it. So I mean, everybody is encouraging to each other and we have these very real conversations. We just had one last night as to where everybody is. I think that that's all you can do is allow people the, the space and the time that they need to grieve in their own Right. That's right. make demands or Nope. from them. What is the main message in your book? Gripping Grace in the Garden of Grief? I love the alliteration, but what, what do you, what do you want people to know and what are you trying to get across there? For me. That we all have a place and believe or non-believer, Jesus does call us to come into a garden. And in that garden he really does, as a gardener, tend to us and take care of us. And we are not alone. So many people grieving think they're alone and I want them to know they are not alone. And I want them to know not only. Does the Lord wanna be present? But we in the sanctuary want to be present with them because we understand what it means to hold space for someone who's hurting. And I don't want anyone to ever feel like there's not a resource for them. There's not a place for them. Because that's where we start seeing the suicide and, you know, increase. And we see it over and over. And it's heartbreaking. And so the cry here is, Hey, just give us a call. Reach out. We're gonna come and walk beside you. We, we want to be with you. And you know, that's important for everybody to have that. And I always say helping others helps me the most in my Yes. Do you find that to be true as well? Taking these experiences and, uh, offering compassion and love and a safe place for people who are in the depths of it? Oh, I, I, I consider it an honor to be able to do that. I, I love that people wanna unpack their pain with me. I mean, that's holy ground. And first of all, they're sharing the intimacies of that loved one. So, you know, it's interesting when people come and seek our services. One of the things I'll ask a griever is, do you volunteer? You know, are you doing anything with anybody depending on how long it has been? Because I think it's important that we reach out and do other things because if not, we go inward in this place of grief and it can take over. That would be a spirit of grief versus being able to grieve with hope, and I think. People need to understand there's a difference I can grieve with hope I, and, but grieving with a spirit of grief is that I live from a place of death. I'm not engaging in life anymore. I'm not living among the living. How would you encourage people to grieve in a spirit of hope?'cause I, I love that sentiment. I think that you can go in and just release. The pain. And I think we also have to, Angela, recognize the lies. There are lies that we're told that we need to acknowledge, and I'll give one so your, your viewers can understand what that means. Immediately on Facebook, the morning when everyone found out Sterling had passed, someone had written on there, um, that the enemy had taken his life. And about a life being cut short. But what the, you know, the enemy meant, you know, for harm, the Lord meant for good. And the Lord said to me, the enemy has nothing to do with this. And so he, he told me what I needed to go on there and write, and I went on and I even called the person and said I needed to take that post down because that is wrong theology. First of all, God didn't have, I mean, the enemy had nothing to do with taking my son. All of us are born, we have a date of our birth and in scripture it tells us that our date to die is already there. It's not gonna be changed. So I went on there and said this, you know, God has allowed this because it was Sterling's time. And so the hope that I have in that is, first of all, his life wasn't robbed from him. It. We as parents feel it was robbed from us. Does that make sense? I mean, we feel a robbing because he's Yes. I've always, I always say I'm part of bereaved, bereaved, the word itself, um, the Latin root is rob to So, and, you do feel robbed of your and we do, especially when they die in an untimely way. but just like you, how do you incorporate that person in your life? You've done it beautifully. Look at what you're doing in memory of Emily. So you've inco you've learned to incorporate it and to live life and to take on the new, so the hope is they're new things. They may not have been the things that we envisioned, but they're new, but, and they, they do bring fruit. And so I've learned how to incorporate Sterling and Marc, my mom, my dad. All those precious ones, my grandmother, my grandfather, that are dear and near to me in my life, that's Hope Field for me. They're with me, they're not gone, they're just not physically present where I can go, give them a hug and I can, you know, dance with them and eat with them and engage in great conversation. But they're present with me because they've left something that is embodied in my spirit. Yeah, that's beautiful. They have left something that is embodied in our spirits, all of us, those who we've Yes, And I, I, I think I wanna frame that or something. That's, that's a beautiful, um. Quote and something that I think really resonates in my heart each one of our loved ones that we've lost have left yes, in our spirits. Yeah. And you wouldn't be able to do what you're doing. If Emily wasn't embodied in you, you do that with her presence of who she was. Who she still is. She still is.'cause she's with you in here. Right. And we know even biologically that children leave some of their DNA in their Yes, um, biological children. And we leave some of our, you know, our DNA is obviously yes. but they leave some of their DNA in Isn't that beautiful? I love that. I love that. I love seeing that how the structure that it's, you know, we're all interconnected in that. Yeah. Well, I just so appreciate you sharing this. yet hopeful story. And I, I, I love it that you're able to frame it in the way that you do. And I admire your steadfastness and your faith and it, that isn't happens for everybody. And, and I do wanna give, um, you know, some com I wanna give compassion and empathy to people who struggle Yes. faith as well during these difficult times. And, and that's a normal response as well. Um, we just hope that. People are able to find. And I always say for me, love showed up in the form of other Yes. after my daughter's death. And, and some of what I've been able to do, I can't take credit for it. Um, I can take credit for my part in it, but I certainly can't take credit for all of it. Um, and uh, just if you can look your life from a hopeful lens, which is why, you know, we called it Emily's Hmm charity that we mm-hmm. I think it's so much better for you in the long run. I do too. And I do wanna make it clear. My husband did wrestle with anger to God. He felt it was a punishment. So, you know, God can handle all that. Just take it to him, work it out, duke it out. As I say, he can, he can duke it out with you. It's good, but be real. I think part of grieving is that we have to give ourselves permission to grieve in the way that we need to grieve, right? Right, And then be real about it. Yes, a hundred percent. And, and we're gonna have in the show notes, um, a link to your website as well as your book. So thank you so much for sharing your story and all of your work with us. We appreciate Yes, and for the poem, it is on my website to parents. It is on my website. will do a, we will do a link to Okay. Thank you and Thank you. it. And thank you for listening to this episode of Grieving Out Loud. We hope you found it helpful. You can find links to other episodes about navigating grief in our show notes, ones we think you'll find especially helpful. Thank you again for listening. Until next time. Wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Weinberg, king and Kaylee Fitz.