Hi, it's your host, Angela Kenkey, and I want to invite you to join me in Washington DC on Saturday, September 27th for the National Trail of Truth. The National Mall will be filled with more than 3,600 hand painted tombstones, each honoring someone lost to substance use. It's a powerful day of remembrance, healing, and action, and I'll be speaking along with other advocates. You can learn more or get involved@trailoftruth.org. That's Saturday, September 27th. I hope to see you in dc. Picture this nearly 4,000 tombstones lined up near the US Capitol. Every single one stands for a life cut short by drug overdose, fentanyl poisoning, or substance use disorder. In this episode of Grieving Out Loud, I sit down with women behind the trail of truth for them. It's not just about the numbers or the statistics. It's about sons, daughters, siblings, and friends. I work from home and he came into my office and he said, mom, I wanna spend time with you. And I said, well, Bryce, you know, it's Friday, I gotta work. I said, it's a half a day. I said, go lay down. And then when I'm done, you know, I live in Maryland, not far from Annapolis So I told him, I said, when I'm done, we'll go to Annapolis and hang out at the docks. And I walked him to his room and told him to lay down. And I'd wake him up in an hour and I kissed him and told him I loved him. And when I went to go check on him an hour later. He was blue, In this episode of Grieving Out Loud, I talk with Kimberly Douglas and Alexis Pleus. Hear what they hope to accomplish through their mission and what they want lawmakers to know as hundreds of thousands of Americans die each year from substance use. Meanwhile, treatment and prevention programs are facing potential cuts. It's kind of a scary and concerning situation where we finally started to make improvements and now I so fear that we're gonna turn around and about face on the progress that we've made. I'm Angela Kennecke, your host. Before we began this powerful conversation, I just wanna take a moment to speak directly to anyone who may be struggling with substance use disorder or to those who have a loved one fighting the disease. Please know help is out there. You don't have to face this alone. We've gathered a list of resources on our website, Emily's Hope Charity. You can find a link in the show notes of this episode. Most importantly, I want you to hear this. Your life matters and you deserve a chance at healing and recovery. Well, Alexis and Kimberly, welcome to Grieving Out Loud. It's so great to see you again, Alexis. So wonderful to meet you, Kimberly. Thank you. Thank you. we are here today to talk about Trail of Truth and an event coming up, and we're gonna put a, a link also because this is Alexis's second time on the podcast. And, thanks for coming back. And we're gonna talk about this big event coming up at the end of September in Washington, DC It's an advocacy event. I want Kimberly to tell a little bit of her story and why she's joining us. Alexis, can you just do the basic nuts and bolts of what's happening with the event and what it is? Yeah, sure. We're so excited because we skipped last year in terms of hosting the National Trail of Truth in Washington. So we're back in DC this year, after two years. And what it is, is it's, it's a national memorial event for all substance use related deaths. So not just fentanyl poisoning but all causes of substance use. Um. Related fatalities, and we come together to both grieve and heal and support each other and build community and build unity. And also to compel change. This year's Trail of Truth will take place on the National Mall on September 27th. I'm so honored to be one of the speakers at this year's event. In addition to speakers and performers, you can get free Naloxone training and grief support, but perhaps the most emotional part of the National Memorial Cemetery. Thousands of hand-painted tombstones, each one honoring someone lost to substance use. And those tombstones are being painted all across the country, which is. For me, one of the most remarkable aspects of the event is building community everywhere. So we paint those tombstones all across the country and then they all come together in Washington DC and we do this huge arts installation and we call it the National Memorial Cemetery. the way I always put it, it's devastatingly beautiful. It's, odd that it is so disturbing and yet beautiful at the same time. Right. I was there two years ago and I was so struck by it. It was a tropical storm. So you remember that. Well, Oh yeah. and I, I was so struck by. How powerful seeing those gravestones lined up with the capital in the background. And we know that we had 400,000 deaths between 2020 and 2023 just from overdose. And then if you add on all the substance related deaths, I mean people who drank themselves to death and people who died in other ways of, you know, health complications due to substance use. that number is staggering, staggering. Yes. And then for each one of those loved ones, a whole family and friends, grieving and, and the loss of that, human who was loved and cherished. So much collateral damage. you have any idea how many gravestones will be on display at this point? I know we're, when at the time that this is being released, we're probably about a month out, a little less. right now we have 3,800 submissions. We are about 600 tombstones behind in painting. And so we are, scrambling and pulling out all stops, emailing all friends, asking everybody that I know to paint tombstones. Here in our hometown, we have friends and neighbors and even my mom, you know, people just come by the office and pick up 25 tombstones, take them home and paint them and bring them back. We're really working around the clock in our community in addition to the tombstones that are being painted nationwide. So we hope to have all 3,800 there. And we also this year as a unique aspect, we've added in some others memorial displays, which I'm really excited about. So the, today I'm at our poster project out of Connecticut. Their posters 600 memorial posters will be there. Eternal Angel poster project will also be there. And the enough is enough crosses. Display will be there as well. So it. oh. I think that collaboration is also really powerful for all of the groups. And, you know, we have our own charity. Emily's Hope there's so many groups out there to come together to work collectively on this issue. It's just, so that's a beautiful thing. I want Kimberly to, turn my attention to you just for a little while. Yeah. Tell me how you got involved with Trail of Truth and what happened to your son. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate being here. Not because of the circumstance, but just because of the camaraderie, right? Like I need to be with people who have also lost loved ones. But yeah, so my son Bryce was just a loving young man, just caring. Um, he as a child was diagnosed, with a DHD and a young age had to take pills daily for his A DHD. And as he got a little older you know, elementary school was fine. Middle school, he started to struggle just slightly you know, in middle school I think he started to dibble and dabble a bit in marijuana, but I didn't notice that at the time. But when. COVID hit. He was a sophomore in high school and so his freshman year he had been, you know, introduced to, the high school scene and met lots of folks. and then COVID happened and it just was not healthy for him um, not being able to be around friends. And so we began to self-medicate with alcohol marijuana. And I had also began to notice some over the counter drug. That he was kind of using on a pretty regular basis. And so we addressed it. I talked to him several times. I had even actually talked to Bryce about fentanyl and the dangers of that, and so just to be careful with whatever he was doing. But during COVID he started having manic episodes and. I thought because my children's father is bipolar, I just thought it was bipolar. But I would call 9 1 1 and they would come and they would kind of help and address him. And we started to realize that um, it wasn't just his mental health. He was experimenting. Well, and if, he was experimenting with marijuana, we know that can cause psychosis in the brain. Right. So you think that's probably what was happening? That's exactly what was happening. Mm-hmm. You know, did everything we were supposed to do, got him um, uh. psychiatric help. you know, he had a drug therapist, he had psychiatrist from the time he was young. He had counselors um, seeing everybody that he could possibly see. Even with all the help, Bryce still suffered an overdose at just 16 years old. Kimberly says. It happened while he was in Florida there with a friend, his friend's mom and his girlfriend. The girlfriend called me and said he, you know, was laying on the ground and his lips were purple. So I told her to immediately call 9 1 1. And course, they um, gave him Narcan a couple of times, took him to the hospital and he was fine after that. Except for the fact that, you know, we had to figure out what the next steps were. But by that happening in Florida, I didn't get as much advice, that I needed to get. But He came back home and we tried to convince him to go to inpatient counseling or inpatient treatment and he wouldn't go. And it's ironic because Bryce was 17 at that time and you know, a 17-year-old has to say they wanna go to rehab and agree to it. Whereas, you know, if I were to kick Bryce out under the age of 18, I would be held responsible for Really, and that must be in your state Are the rules in my state, I mean, that's so frustrating, isn't it? so counterproductive. It is just really counterproductive. So that was very frustrating. So he decided he didn't wanna go. And in June, that summer, you know, we woke up that morning and Bryce, ironically my kids, it's just me. I raised both India and Bryce. My daughter is. two years older than Bryce. And I raised them together by myself and they often come lay in my bed. And that morning I woke up and Bryce was in my bed and he got up and walked out of the room and it, it startled me 'cause he was just kind of having an anxiety attack. And so I asked him if he was okay and he said, mom, I'm gonna go to my room and I'm just gonna, listen to my music. So I thought he was fine. I got. Working. I work from home and he came into my office and he said, mom, I wanna spend time with you. And I said, well, Bryce, you know, it's Friday, I gotta work. I said, it's a half a day. I said, go lay down. And then when I'm done, you know, I live in Maryland, not far from Annapolis So I told him, I said, when I'm done, we'll go to Annapolis and hang out at the docks. and I walked him to his room and told him to lay down. And I'd wake him up in an hour and I kissed him and told him I loved him. And when I went to go check on him an hour later. He was blue, and so I just. I literally called 9 1 1. Went to go look for the Narcan in my medicine cabinet, and I knew exactly where it was, but you know, that frantic flight or fight I flew it across the room and didn't realize it and couldn't find it. So went into his room and called 9 1 1. Tried to give him, chest compressions and do everything that I could to keep him alive until the paramedics got there and they worked on him for about an hour and they came out. My family. My mom, my dad, my sister, my daughter, she came home, two of my aunts, and we were outside in the driveway and just praying, praying that, you know, he'd get through it. And one of the, the police officer came out and told us he passed away and that they had pronounced him dead at 2 0 9. So that was really hard. more than hard. I mean, the worst thing, and I, I am so terribly sorry for the loss of Bryce. He was just 17, right? And was it fentanyl? A fentanyl laced pill that ended up taking his life? he had, when he was 14, I had taken him to the dentist to get his wisdom teeth pulled. They had given him Percocets. I stupidly took him with me to the pharmacy to get it filled, just in case. But I'd never given him a pill. I'd kind of just hidden him away, had them if he needed them. And unbeknownst to me. two years later, when I went to go look for them, they were gone. So the rumor was that he passed away from a bad Percocet. So my theory is that he probably got to those Percocets, enjoyed them, him and his friends, and then once they were gone, I feel like he may have just tried to get something off the street. Such a common story with the children that we lose in this way. Um, So many similarities among so many of these horrific deaths. And so was anybody ever charged in his death? Was there any ever follow through? well, of course law enforcement was here questioned us. They took his cell phone. They know exactly who sold it to him. it was a 15-year-old friend of his that sold it to him. And no, they never charged him. you know, that it's upsetting that the young man is not being held responsible for it. But, at the same time, I also don't wanna see, someone else's family devastated by the loss. I mean, I know, you know, my child is no longer here and, you know, he's still here, but just, you know, it's just devastating. I get it. I get it. So many mixed emotions with something like that, especially when it's another child selling it to your child. And but I do think that in some way, law enforcement fails so many of our families and doesn't follow through with what they need to do. Even to have some kind of accountability. Hopefully not a 15-year-old life's ruined. I mean, I think nobody would want that. I mean, I don't know. I mean, it's so hard to, There's so many gray areas, right? right. Right. And I just appreciate you sharing his story. And then how did you get connected with Alexis and get involved in Trail of Truth? And it's only been two years for you and good for you getting involved and, I mean, 'cause just, just getting up in the morning and getting going is a, great accomplishment after a terrible loss. Yeah, well, it took me, you know, I was on bereavement leave for about seven months. I just, I couldn't get out of the bed for a while, but once I started to share Bryce's story, that was very healing for me. Oh. But I live right out. Side of Washington, DC So I've worked in politics for the last 20 years, and so I have the good fortune of knowing Ethan Nadelman, who actually started Drug Policy Alliance. And so he put me in contact with a group called Moms United for a I believe it's for a new path. And so Alexis and I met at their retreat in November of 2023, and we just became fast friends. I mean, I, at the time was really thinking about starting a foundation in Bryce's name, but just wasn't sure of, you know, what made sense because I know a lot of parents have started. Yeah. and their children's names, and I just wanted to do something different and make sure that there was a niche. Right. so I just grilled the Alexis and tried to learn as much as I could from her. And so she's been a great teacher. Kimberly then joined the Board of Truth Farm, the group behind the Trail of Truth. Alexis founded the organization after she lost her oldest son, Jeff, to a heroin overdosed in August of 2014. As I mentioned earlier, Alexis joined me for a previous episode of Grieving Out Loud where we talked about her devastating loss, why she thinks drug overdose deaths are under reported and her mission to hold pharmaceutical companies accountable while pushing lawmakers to pay attention. So Alexis, how important is it, you know, to have other parents be. Involved it's probably the most important thing that we can do is involve people with lived experience to share their stories and to sway the way that our nation is addressing or will address the overdose epidemic because they're continuously failing us and so. What strikes me often by the stories that I hear Kimberly's included, is how much Kimberly sought help for Bryce. she did a very brief encapsulation of the story here, but I've heard much more of the story and she worked so hard to get help for him. And it was so hard to obtain and it was often not the help that they needed, nor was it support for her in guiding her in the best way to address things. Every single story that we hear points out some sort of failing in the system. And so bringing those voices together to empower change, I think is, it's the most important thing. We need to know people's lived experiences, and we need to point out these failings so that we can fix them. Right. I'm nodding vigorously because Kimberly, I also had the system fail me with my, I mean, I tried so hard to get help starting in high school, and it's the same story. Like I said, all these circumstances, either kids are introduced to these substances way too young before their brains are developed. You try to get help, you have erratic behaviors. Things that you know are going wrong and you cannot get the help and they die. and Bryce was misdiagnosed. I mean, I knew. From the time he was in my belly that, you know, he was different. He would, I would sit and he would just bounce around in my belly all day. And so I knew he was an active child and I kept asking doctors years and years and years, his pediatrician is something wrong. Do I need to get him neurological testing? I mean, even when they diagnosed him with a DHD, the psychiatrist told me, he said. Really doesn't have a DHD. He's very calm. He has more of a DD, so they never diagnosed him, but I did, probably about a two months before he passed, we were able to do a neurological evaluation for him. But he was actually diagnosed right before he passed with high functioning autism. Oh, that would've helped a lot to know that a lot sooner. Exactly. Exactly. And what I think is interesting now, and I'd like to get both of your thoughts on this, is that we've seen nationwide overdose death rates go down about 25% on average. Not that much in the state I live in, but anyway, 25% on average yet. These new cuts to Medicaid that would be taking place in 2026 would about 150,000 people off of opioid addiction treatment. It would make outpatient treatment cut that by two thirds for addiction treatment. and we've heard so much talk about cuts for addiction treatment and prevention. We've heard a lot of talks and, it's hard because , we try to remain, you know, a bipartisan, a nonpartisan organization. We wanna work with everybody. We don't think this should be a political issue. Uh, However, you know, we hear a lot of talk about the border, how important the border is, but this is just such a complicated issue. It's a human health issue. And what message do you think we can bring to Washington for trail of truth? You know, I'm rattling off all these things that are going on, but, but what do they need to hear and know and what would you like to see Congress and other people in positions of power and authority do? So, I wholeheartedly agree with everything that you said, and it is it's kind of a scary and concerning situation where we finally started to make improvements and now I so fear that we're gonna turn around and about face on the progress that we've made. One of the things that we've done with the Trail of Truth because we have really wanted to make sure that our message is on point for everyone who has this experience, which is hard, right? Because everybody has a different um, their loss looks different. You know, their journey here looks different. So it's hard to find like some unifying things that we can all support. So , when we first took Trail of Truth National, we did a national survey. We continue to take submissions for it as we take submissions of people's loved ones. So we have over 4,000 surveys collected, and we ask one basic question, what do you think should be done to end the overdose epidemic? And there's about 42 options. So I tried to put every option under the sun there, you know, from drug induced homicides to ending the drug war and every single thing in between, and the things that rose to the top. you know, every single time I say this, I get full um, chills. The things that rise to the top continuously are immediate access to treatment, ending medical discrimination, broad barrier, free access to Naloxone. The fourth one we don't include in the trail of truth, but the fourth one is actually access to medication assisted treatment and spending the opioid, settlements responsibly and transparently. it's interesting when you ask families what needs to be done, this is a unified message. We need immediate access to treatment. That is number one, top on the list, 4,000 nationwide surveys from families who've lost a loved one. What do you think needs to be done? Immediate access to treatment is the number one answer. And so for the trail of truth, those are the things that we've adopted, is what rises to the top. Immediate access to treatment. Ending medical discrimination, broad access to to Narcan and spending the opioid settlements responsibly and transparently. I've literally never had a single person say to me, that's not what we should be focusing on. Yeah. No, I mean, I, think you're a hundred percent accurate and I'll let Kimberly answer the question too, but I wanted to say with. All Yep. No. So immediate access to treatment, even with our post overdose response team that we operate, we respond to people who survive an overdose. Sometimes it takes days to get them into treatment, right? There is no immediate access to treatment and. If you go back to so many of these medically assisted treatment, all of it, the number one barrier for all of these things? Stigma. Stigma. And it exists everywhere. And even the, slight progress we've made in having maybe 60% of the population understand addiction, substance use disorder as a disease of the brain, we still have so far to go right to change the systems that keep it stigmatized. That's right. the access to treatment is just, a huge barrier for us and the stigma as well. I mean, I remember the day after Bryce passed, family members told me. don't share how Bryce passed. You don't have to tell people how Bryce passed, but I felt inclined to share that information. So I think, you know, the biggest barrier I feel is the stigma. I mean, as a person of color, you know, I know we don't talk about it at all and I, I've grown up in a family that we do have mental health issues and I have several cousins that we just never talked about their mental health issues. And so I just think having people talk about it and feeling comfortable having conversations around mental health and substance use disorder is, , I know one of the biggest barriers for me as a black woman, because, you know, I don't know any other women in my area except for one other mom and she doesn't talk about the death of her son, but we don't talk about it. And I live in Prince George's County, which is a very. Predominantly black county in Maryland and we don't have these conversations. I'm not surprised to hear you say that. And I think you know, it's interesting to me, if you look at history with the, you know, crack cocaine crisis of the eighties portrayed as a. Person of color, black person's problem. Right? and now you have white people dying and it's not lost on me. I'm blonde, blue eyed, and my daughter is too, right? And so we have these mothers, like Alexis and I speaking up about it. But yet there is just so much history I think, of shame, That's right. for women of color with their children, right? Because you know of the history involved. and we're taught to be strong and we can't, we have to, we have to look at one another as just human beings and, Right, meet folks where they're at and have right. um, And we're not having them. So I'm happy to have the conversation here with you Yeah, I'm, I'm grateful for that too. Kimberly isn't just sharing her story, she's trying to make sure other families don't have to go through what she did. She's encouraging parents to put the shame aside and grieve openly to lean on each other instead of staying silent. She even started a Facebook group called Black Moms Against Overdose, and now she's part of a vital strategies campaign pushing for Naloxone to be more available in black communities. And so they've identified seven to nine cities in the country that are predominantly black and indigenous folks where we're sharing uses of Naloxone. So we're giving away naloxone and training folks on how to use it in the brown and black communities. And so. Super excited about that because, you know, I only knew about Naloxone because I knew about Fentanyl and I was having those conversations with my son and he actually, Bryce actually walked around with Narcan in his pocket and I didn't even realize it the day that I went to go save his life that he had actually had Narcan in his pocket. So I think you know, it's really. Prevalent that we, as people of color, that we start to talk about it and we start to , train and talk about the ways that we can save folks lives when they are in these situations, when they're having overdoses or even when they're just using with folks. think that's wonderful that you've taken those steps. And I always say that the advocacy work that I do, really helps me. It's a place to put your grief. Do you find that as you, I mean, you're only two years out and you're already done so much. I mean, kudos to you. Do you find that it's helpful to you? I do find that it's helpful. It's extremely emotionally draining, Yeah. Is helpful because, you know, I. I feel like it's emotionally draining when I talk to family members about Bryce's passing or even friends. And so it's really soothing to my heart and my spirit to be able to share Bryce's story with people who wanna listen and people who care and actually wanna hear it so that they can possibly save a life themselves. And so it has been very helpful, but I often find myself in rooms. Of folks, of women, of other people who have a shared life experiences that don't look like me. So I often am the only black person in the room. And so I, I wanna change that because the numbers for African American and indigenous folks Yeah. are actually rising Yeah, the numbers for everyone else are going down. And you know, it's very important that we talk about it because it's embedded in our culture, right? Like when my kids were growing up, I'm a very religious person, so I would force them to listen to gospel music, but when they became 14, 15, and 16, they started to listen to what they wanted to, and it's embedded in our culture. Like you know, the kids Right. that talks about taking Percocets or you know, drinking lean or whatever, you know, Yeah. Normalizes and glamorizes it, right? Exactly. And so we need to talk about it because if we're going to continue to have that information embedded in our culture, then we need to figure out how to combat that, right? Like how do we save lives? right. right. well thank you for all of that work that you're doing and, and you're right in my state the indigenous population, native American population has a death rate five times higher than the rest of the population. And we're just getting naloxone, free naloxone to them now, That's on our efforts. I'm sad it's taken so long, but you know, it's just such a, prevalent issue and oftentimes you know, parts of society just get ignored, right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Alexis, you're undertaking this all and it'll be coming up soon. And what can people expect, like when they get there and you're inviting everyone to come on Saturday, September 27th. Can you talk a little bit more about Yeah, I would love to. I'm so excited that our display will be the largest it's been yet. In both the Memorial Tombstones, but then also these other displays that we're adding in. We're really grateful to work in partnership with these other organizations in, in unifying our front to get what we need to turn this epidemic around so folks can expect to see a beautiful but really sad. It's like a sad and beautiful display at the same time. folks who have been directly impacted will actually love being there because they'll see the looks on other faces and they'll find that familiar feeling of people who have faced the same loss. And it's a, it's a beautiful way to build community and healing. You can find more details about the event in the show notes of this podcast. While you're there, we'd appreciate it if you take a moment to rate and review this episode and please share it with everyone You know, we want to get the word out about this important event in dc. It does help further our mission to raise awareness about the opioid epidemic and decrease stigma surrounding substance use disorder, which will hopefully encourage more people to get the help they so desperately need. The more people we reach, the more lives we have a chance to save. We have what we call healing spaces. And so we'll have a friend of ours, Karen Burnett. Who hosts an online healing and support group for families? She's going to be there offering meditation you know, at the top of every hour. So families can come and sit and have a calming moment. We'll have grief share circles, so there'll be people there facilitating grief share circles. We'll have artful activities because we find artful activities to be so healing. So there'll be opportunities for people to sit down and relax and make art together. And all centralized around this idea of memorializing their loved ones. And we'll have at four, four to 6:00 PM we have like the main feature of the event. We'll have speakers and performers really spreading the message of what we're trying to accomplish with the trail of truth yourself. We'll be speaking Angela, which we're so excited and grateful to have you and Kimberly will be as well. And another friend of mine, Tracy Gardner, who's the director of the National Black Harm Reduction Network. And we'll have a recovery speaker. And it, you know, the program is always compelling and beautiful and meant to be healing and inspiring at the same time for people who are out there who want a place to put their grief as you know, as you pointed out, and as Kimberly pointed out, it feels so much better to make a difference in the world. In memory and in the name of our loved ones. then to you know, just sit in our grief, you know, to make a difference it's healing. And so we want everyone to have that opportunity. Even if they just learn that they can go home and be a volunteer at an organization that exists at home, whatever it is that they can do to find a way to be a part of the solution is what we always hope to, to inspire. And then in the morning before the Memorial Cemetery opens at 11:00 AM we're actually doing something for the first time, and I'm really excited about it. We're gonna have an author's panel at the host hotel at 10:00 AM. And we have three authors secured now, and we're working on two more to talk about how they turn their grief into purpose through writing. And I think that that's another way that families can be inspired to work through their grief, even if, if it's just journaling. I think that that can be a healing process for people. books being published on the topic are compelling and they make a change. It's like every single little way that people find the way to get the word out there is going to help with the epidemic. So we're excited to host an author's panel on Saturday morning. There will be some activities for those who are traveling in Friday as well. And so if people are coming Friday, if you're traveling from out of state Friday evening, we're going to have a candlelight vigil on the National Mall. We're also going to do something I'm telling it here first. I have not shared this any place else. We're going to have a photo shoot for, you know, in my mind I keep thinking moms, but it's really anyone. You know, in their warrior spirit uh, Friday night after the candlelight vigil. And so we'll be announcing that soon. But that'll be a way for people to have an empowering moment and feel really proud and strong in the way that they are standing up and fighting against overdose. So that'll be Friday night. But yeah, it'll be a time of building community and being together and healing together and inspiring together. It sounds amazing. I'm so looking forward to it. I'm so honored that you asked me to speak too, so thank you for that. what I love about it is you're not only recognizing the people we've lost, but you're, you're really helping the families who are grieving and we continue to grieve. And I know, Alexis, you're about 11 years out since losing your son, but that grief never really goes away, does it? No, no. I mean, it just, you know, all of this. I keep tearing up. I'm like, my eyes, you know, I know that my grief is so different and, and I know you know as well, Angela, my grief is so different today than it was the first two years or three years. But it's still there. I miss my son um, deeply every day. And it's odd how if you talk about it, the sharpness of it comes right to surface. Yes it does. Yes it does. And things can happen in the world. You hear something on the news and that can trigger your own grief. Um, Horrible things. And we're competing against so much. It seems like to have our voices heard Yes so much hitting us, you know, on social media. And it's a different crisis, a different problem every day. But this is still remains that's one killer of right. And Alexis, thank you for bringing so many people together. I think that is your true gift. Your ability to bring people together is. Nothing I've ever seen. So thank you for doing that, and I look forward to seeing you both in person in DC on September 27th. Same. Thank you so much. I hope to see you at the Trail of Truth. I'll be there on September 27th. If you can't make it, we'll be posting pictures and videos on our Emily's Hope, Facebook, Instagram, and other social media pages so you can follow along. Thanks again for listening. You can always find more episodes. Read my blog and catch up on the latest news headlines surrounding substance use disorder, the opioid crisis, and mental health at Emily's Hope charity. Again, you can find a link in the show notes about the Trail of Truth event. Until next time. Wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Wonnenberg King and Kayli Fitz.