Hi, it's your host, Angela Kennecke, and I want to invite you to join me in Washington DC on Saturday, September 27th for the National Trail of Truth. The National Mall will be filled with more than 3,600 hand painted tombstones, each honoring someone lost to substance use. It's a powerful day of remembrance, healing, and action, and I'll be speaking along with other advocates. You can learn more or get involved@trailoftruth.org. That's Saturday, September 27th. I hope to see you in DC Everyone is grieving on some level. Most people are just trying to fake it through. I'm Angela Kennecke and you are listening to Grieving Out Loud. Grief is something most of us will face in our lifetime, but it's not exactly coffee Shop conversation. Gary Roe hoping to change that. Not only does he speak openly and honestly about grief, but he's also an award-winning author who's written more than 20 books on the topic. I have learned that grief can absolutely take over a life and sabotage us. Mm-hmm. It can do that. I have also learned that people can endure unbelievable losses and trauma On this episode of Grieving Out Loud, Gary opens up about his difficult childhood, what he's learned about grief and resilience over the years, and what he hopes others can take away from his journey. One of the questions that's really valuable for me is that when I'm anxious, when I'm frustrated, when I'm angry, when I'm upset, chances are I'm believing a lie somewhere. So, what, what lie. Am I currently believing? If you practice that, I've discovered sometimes I can figure it out pretty quick. Well, Gary, welcome to Grieving Out Loud. You know, it's called Grieving Out Loud because after my daughter died in 2018, I started the podcast, you know, a few months later, in April of 2019, almost a year later, I started the podcast and I felt like I was grieving out loud. Like I was just gonna talk about my grief, talk about what happened, talk to other families who've been through something similar and. I think we have a lot of new families joining us all the time. People who are new to grief and those first few years are so brutal when it comes to grief. yes, they are. And you are really an expert on this subject. Tell me how you became an expert on grief. I, I don't know what an expert on grief is. You know, people call me that, but I don't know what I've done to deserve that title. I was raised in an atmosphere of grief. It was really an atmosphere of mixed messages, sexual abuse, multiple losses, multiple deaths. Lost a best friend at the age of 11. My parents soon after that. Separated and divorced. My mom went into mental illness and just kind of disappeared. My dad died very suddenly and I was functionally orphaned by the age of 15, and so with that background, I very quickly, even as a teenager, said, uhoh. I have to figure out a way to heal from this, and if I can do that, I would like to be able to use this for good somehow for other people. And so that really led into an entire adult life of ministry, missionary work, pastor, et cetera. And. All the time though, I found myself drawn to grieving, hurting, suffering people and they being drawn to me. So I guess it was just kind of a natural progression over a number of years to figure out how do we grieve out loud well, and how do we turn around and use our grief for good for other people somehow. Well, Gary, it's fascinating to me that you made a decision at age 15. I. To use your grief for good because so many people go the opposite way. Right? They become self-destructive, and we know that grief is the root of most addictions, most self-destructive behaviors. Right? And you went through it. Boy, I always say all children of divorce are experiencing grief, you know, the loss of their nuclear original family. And I, my kids come from a divorced family and I'm, very aware of that and I think a lot about that with my daughter. You know, she was the oldest and probably experienced the most grief in the dissolution of that relationship. But, you know, I just wonder what was it about you at 15, do you think that made you go kind of in the bright side instead of the dark side? Which, so many people still don't seem to be able to avoid? I, I don't know, but I have a sneaking suspicion somewhere in there about the age of 11. I came to know Jesus. I, I developed a personal relationship with him and I was a competitive swimmer during all this time. And so that connected me with other kids and other families. And it was actually one of those families that watched all this going on. And when my dad died, took me into their home for the remainder of high school, no paperwork, no adoption. They just took me in and. I began to heal in their household. I experienced love and support and acceptance and boundaries and all the things that I hadn't really gotten up until then, and it really changed the trajectory of my life. So I credit them for that. Yeah, I always say whether it's an abusive relationship, whether it's loss, if there's just one adult person, especially when it comes to a young person going through this it's giving that. A person, a lifeline, that kid, a lifeline, right? And and that sounds like what you had this positive influence, somebody who cared. Yes. Enough about you. And I think that that can really make, whether it's a teacher or a neighbor, or a friend or a grandparent or whatever it might be, I think that can make all the difference in the world. Absolutely. I so agree. I so, so agree. While Gary credits his faith in God for helping him persevere and move forward in his grief, not everyone experiences loss in the same way. In fact, in a previous episode of Grieving Out Loud, a fan ontologist or grief educator explained the four main ways people grieve with one of them being spiritual. Here's Dr. Mark Vande Braak. We question our belief. Yes. When, when Emily's robbed from you, you go, why? You know, coming from a faith base, like for me. God, what? Why did you do this? What? What's the reason for this? Why? It certainly locked my faith and I, why, why? I was born and raised, you know, in a religion and Catholic church, and it certainly has rocked my faith. And for me, that's why it's very important for people, people to recognize this is when people fall away from the faith the most or they get closer. And I always say in my human form, I have questions for God when I see him. It'll probably be a different story. People get angry at God though, don't you think? Oh, I think he can handle it. Can, if he knows what's going on or feel abandoned by God. Absolutely. Or question if there is even a God. Absolutely. If you'd like to listen to more from that episode, we've posted a link in our show notes. While you're there, we'd appreciate it if you took just a moment to rate and review this episode, and even more importantly, share it with someone who needs to hear it. You know who that is. It will make their day to know that you care. Together we can help make these important conversations less taboo and help more people feel less alone. So people going through extreme grief can turn to their faith, but some people lose their faith in this process. Yes. Many people either immediately or somewhere down the road, experience a faith crisis. The way I like to put it is usually if the foundation of their faith isn't thick enough. In other words, they kind of have ideas about things and they sort of believe things, but it hasn't really been tested in the fire, so to speak. Chances are their faith will not survive a huge, significant traumatic loss for those whose faith is is really really, The main part of their life and they don't expect God to, I guess, be the one who steps into everything and makes everything okay all the time. Those people tend to do a little bit better, but you're right. But matter who you are, no matter how deep your foundation and your faith is, you experience significant loss, it's gonna shake your soul. is going to shake you spiritually. Your relationship with God, whatever it is, will change. Hopefully it will grow closer, but you're right. For so many people, that is not the case. I think for me personally, when I went through this with my daughter, I think what I lost faith in was religion, organized religion not God, which, you know, may not sound right to some people, and I think it was because my church. there was one person who was there for me, but overall, my church was really not there for me. And I felt like I was sort of told, you know, raise a child up the way they should go. And I did all these things that were so hard to do and got my kids to church and to religious ed and to even Catholic school and all these things. I, I'm Catholic. But I just, I think I really had a crisis of faith in the religion, but I never stopped believing in God. I think that's an excellent summary. I think of all the people that I know that really struggle with their faith or quote, lose their faith, it's much what you describe. It's sort of a, a loss of faith in the church, a loss of faith in a religious system or religion, but not necessarily a loss of. Faith in God himself. I think it was Mahatma Gandhi, who said, I like your Christ. I don't think much of you Christians. And so in today's world, I can be especially poignant, right? So, so many times I think we have a tendency to judge God. By people who profess to know God by how they're treating us. Right. But God and he is not the same as them, thankfully. Right. Yeah. And I always say, really how love showed up for me was in the form of other people. Yes. People I never expected and strangers. Yes. And it wasn't so much the people in the church, it was people outside of the church and people from many different walks of life and many different you know, communities showed up at, at the most. Amazing times, right? Yes. And I always think that there is something spiritual moving through me in the work that I do, right? Because I couldn't have done any of this alone. Absolutely not. It's so interesting and has helped me heal. And I'm, I. And I'm, I'm not gonna say I'm ever gonna be fully healed. I think that's the other thing about grief and our society is so grief intolerant, and you're out there talking about grief like me all the time. But societies do you find that to be true, that people just really sometimes don't want you to talk about it? Absolutely not. We want to pretend it doesn't exist even while we're grieving because it's so painful, right? Yes, yes. We want to feel good and the world tells us in some many senses that we should and that we have a right to, but the reality is those messages are just not helpful and many of them are not. They're just flat, not true because it's always healthier to live in reality, and if we're grieving. I mean, it is what it is, and we move through that grief and embrace that pain. But you're right, when we start talking to the world about grief, most of the time we just get blank stares or they turn around and walk away because who wants to hear about that, right? I think most people wanna think they can avoid it. As if they can run from it somehow. Yes. Right. And so what did your experiences with grief, especially at such early age mm-hmm. What did that teach you or how did that help you in the work that you do today? Number one, I think it developed within me a lot of compassion through pain, through my own pain, through how other people treated me. I discovered very quickly as you just mentioned, some of the people you count on disappear. People you had never dreamed, would've stepped forward, step forward, people you don't even know, become major players in your life. All of those things happen, and I also discovered from my high school friends who didn't know what to say and somehow had the wisdom to keep their mouth shut. I don't know how they did that, but they were just with me a lot. They didn't try to help me feel better. They didn't try to pull me out of my grief, and I think I learned from them the profound impact of just showing up in another person's life and not having to say anything. The power of our presence, our availability, even if it's on online like this is huge. It's massive and a lot more powerful than anything we could say, Right? I think you're absolutely correct. I always think this, that we struggle with what to say to somebody when they've had the worst thing happen to them. And for parent, I think that's losing a child. And people are like, well, what do I say and how do I say it? And I'm like, it doesn't matter what you say. Say very little. Just show up. I think the presence of someone in the being loving and compassionate and just being there says it all because people won't remember, especially in early stages of brief, what you said anyway, unless it's offensive, then they'll remember that, right? They'll remember absolutely correct. but, but they will remember that you were there and I can still see the faces of people who showed up at my house, who showed up at the funeral, who just showed up. I oftentimes cannot remember. In fact, there was. One friend of mine who said something, I was just like, that's the best thing I ever heard. And about a year ago, I asked him, what was it that you said again? I just remember that it was good. Do you remember what you said? So, you know. Yes, yes, yes. That has been my experience and I think it's been the experience of every grieving person I've talked to, pretty much. So you've written about child loss, you've written about spousal loss. Can you talk about the different kinds of grief and what you learned from writing about those subjects? I learned first of all that there's a commonality to grief for all of us, even though it's a highly individual process even among parents who have lost children, even among bereaved spouses. when we lose someone that is unique in all of human history. As we are unique in all of human history, we lose a unique in all of human history relationship that no one else has ever had, and no one else will ever have again. And so for anybody to even think, oh, I know how you feel is ridiculous, I. I. Because it's, our loss and it's our loss alone. So there's a number of commonalities to a grieving heart is what I'll call it, no matter what the loss is. Now, having said that. I've discovered over time the obvious fact that we all carry baggage. And so whatever we bring into the loss with us makes our loss very, very unique. Our background, our physical health, our emotional health, our support network what kind of loss it is, was it traumatic? Did we get closure? You know, all of those kinds of things, everything gets blended into that. So I've discovered very quickly there is no rubric for this. There is no checklist. We want one so that we can kind of check it off and feel like we've accomplished something today, but the real reality is we are where we are. Our grief journey is lonely by nature, yet we are not alone. There are many people grieving, and the best we can do is grieve out loud. And move through the grief no matter what the loss was. Of course, if we're talking about spousal loss, we're talking about a relationship that is very different than a child that's very different from a sibling. That's very different from losing a parent. And I think another thing that I've learned along the way is it's very, very dangerous for our own heart and for other people's heart to compare our losses in any shape, form, or fashion. I was just at a visitation. Last night. Mm-hmm. And some friends of mine had lost their mother and they look at me and they're like, this is nothing like losing a child. And I said, you cannot compare loss. Please don't compare. Loss. Loss is lost. You only get one mom. You know? Yes. It's different, but don't compare. And I think that's hard for people 'cause they wanna say, well, especially to someone like me who's lost a child, people feel like, oh, well I, I don't even dare talk about my grief or my loss around you. Mm-hmm. Because yours is worse. And I think that's unfortunate. I agree. I agree. Because of course, anytime two grieving hearts talk to each other and are real and authentic and are willing to be accepting and not compete and not compare, there's going to be a connection that happens that helps both of them grieve. Mm-hmm. And so, so often when we stay quiet, we deny. That opportunity to someone else, and we, we deny ourselves the opportunity to participate in their grief and for them to participate in ours. And so I have found too that yes, it's helpful talking to someone who's had a similar loss, but at the same time, any grieving heart that we talk to, if we're open and we don't compare, it can be very, very, very, very valuable. Do you think grief makes us more human? Huh? Yes, because I think most of the time we live in denial that the world is a different place than the world that we live in. That it's a world where somehow we can construct our own garden of Eden, that somehow we can make things happen and keep things from happening, even though our loss tells us, you know what? Anything can happen to anyone at any time, and that's a terrifying thought. But it's reality. And if we live in the reality of I am really connected to everybody else around me in some shape, form, or fashion, how do I love them? Well, today that's a big deal. If we can do that, that's a big, big deal. I agree. That is a huge deal because the humanity. Grief and how it connects us. And it connects you to another human being. And I think it's the ego that wants to control everything, that wants to think I can, I can control the outcome. I can control whether someone lives or dies. Yes. I would say, you know, if I get all biblical on us for a minute, that the root of all sin is pride. Arrogance, which is thinking in some shape, form, or fashion. I am God that I'm in control, that the self is most important. And when we get there, then our ability to love and connect with other people goes way down. Huh. And the mind, the mind wants to control. I mean, you take yes. pride out of it. The mind has a need to control to feel like we have some semblance of control when we have so little. And I think that's what's scary as someone who's gone through the loss of a child, is that I realize that this can happen at any moment to anybody, and it's hard not to live your life in fear that it will happen again. And I've interviewed parents on this podcast who've lost more than one child that is a frightening place to live sometimes. Absolutely You know, when we get hit in a certain location hard enough, if it were physically, we would carry the bruise. We would carry the wound and Anytime anything from life bumps that wound, we're gonna feel it again. And I know people, one person said to me. Okay. Okay. I just wanna take everybody I care about and lock 'em away in a vault somewhere so that nothing bad can happen to them. Yeah. And so fearing the other shoe dropping it's natural, it's common. I, I think we all experience that on some level, but yes, it can lead to living in fear, and fear is a very powerful motivator. Right. And that's where people I think can get stuck, right? Because you don't, you don't wanna live in that place. You wanna have that maybe in your mind so that you appreciate those around you the most. So you treat people well, so you do all the things that you know we're supposed to do, right? Because we know that this isn't permanent. But at the same time, you can't obsess about the fact that something could happen, or you live in sort of your own hell, I think. Yes. Yes. And it, Well, when we give control of our lives over to fear. Fear takes on a life of its own. and it begins to nib nibble away at our relationships, which is what we don't want. You have a free resource for people on your website and we'll put a link to that, but it's called Nine Things I Wish I Knew About Grief. Can you talk about some of the things that you wish you knew about grief and why you wrote that? Well I got to thinking about it one day and I thought just what, what do I wish I had known? I. But beforehand, of course, the ironic thing is you can't know. You really can't know beforehand, and we fault ourselves all the time. Oh my gosh, why didn't I do this, say this, see this coming, et cetera. Mm-hmm. If I only knew now what I knew then, but that's impossible. But looking back and looking forward, when the next gloss comes. What am I glad I know now. Well, one thing is the lie grief must be brief. It should be brief. That's what we think. Well, no, it's not. It's not a sprint, it's a marathon. and most of the things that I wish I had known where I had these myths about grief in my head, like grief is negative. You should avoid it at all costs. Or as a believer in Jesus Christ. Wow, grieving should be easier for me. Because of your faith. Because of your faith. Yes. Yes. I mean, that's ridiculous. But anyway, because I'm human. Write down to one of the myths I had to deal with was, wow, everybody at church will be supportive of me and my grief. No, there will be people who are supportive, but just because they're going to church to expect them to be supportive, they're going to be the norm, which is they will allow me one month to grieve and then they will expect me to get back to who I was before, which is impossible'cause that person is no longer here. You know, that's one thing I really noticed after Emily's death was I just thought I, I sort of grieved also the loss of who I was. Before this traumatic incident.'cause I will never be that person again. I will never have that sort of innocence of knowing this kind of pain. Yes. And you can never go back to being who you were. No. Grief is going to change you remarkably most of the time. Yes. And if it didn't, what would that say about you and I? Say, or a relationship with the person we lost, right. Relationship. It would, it would just say, wow, that wasn't any big deal. it's a massive deal, and of course it's going to change us. It's gonna change every area of our lives, especially our relationships, probably more than any other area. Right. What about, how do you advise people to handle the people who are grief adverse, the people who you expect to stay in your life, or you expect support from, but you don't get it. Some people like that could even be family members, you know, who say the wrong things or do the wrong things or aren't there for you. I have a phrase I use a lot. It's very similar to what everybody else says. I think I. Get around people who are helpful to you and try to limit your exposure to those who aren't. I'm not in favor of calling people, toxic people because that's an identity statement, but I am in favor of saying some people will behave toxically. I. Towards you when you're grieving. So anything you can do to limit your exposure to them. Now, if they happen to be your spouse or a family member or something like that, then you're in this situation that's more complicated, that what I say is get creative and try to find ways to guard your heart when you're around this person. And of course, when we're grieving. We want so desperately to be understood, to be seen and heard, but if the other person is not going to give us that gift, if they're just not and we know it, then we would be wise to, if possible, not share our hearts with them because they're just not trustworthy of our heart with regard to this and our grief. I think in today's culture with all the oversharing that people do, oh yes. People have lost sight of who they can trust with their innermost thoughts, with their heart and who they can't. It's almost like they've lost that instinct of who it's safe to unveil, you know, your, innermost feelings to and who isn't. I agree. I'm a big believer in track record. What's the person's track record with me? Every time I share about my grief, they respond negatively. They try to fix it. They tell me what to do. Maybe they just change the subject. Well, if that's their track record, excuse me for saying this, I'm a bit of a dummy stop doing the same thing and expecting different results, right? Yes, yes. I mean, that's, that's saying, yeah. Yes. they have a track record. And so find a person with a track record that's mostly supportive because none of us are perfect and there's going to be days when we're not going to be as supportive as we would other days, and we have to give people grace., But mostly if they track record is they're a supportive person, then they're a good person to be around during this time. We have a support group, but it's all parents. At my organization and all different timeframe, I would call it different timeframes of grief, right? Different seasons of grief. Some of us are a little further along, some people are within the first. Weeks or months of losing someone. And I think during those first weeks or months, the pain seems so unbearable. You think, how can I go the rest of my life feeling like this? I don't know how I'm gonna do this. Yes. What do you say to people in those early stages who are feeling that overwhelmed, debilitating grief? Yes, I would say. number one, what you're experiencing is natural and common. I don't say normal because I don't know what normal is anymore, but natural, absolutely common. Absolutely. And I often say, if you're wondering if you're feeling something too intensely, just think about it like a math equation. Put your loss on one side, put an equal sign in the middle and put what you're experiencing over here. Does your loss equal what you're experiencing? And most people go, oh, yes. So it's congruent so you don't have to worry about yourself because what you're experiencing is exactly in line with reality. The other thing I say is it's hard to imagine this right now. Please understand now is not forever. Things will change. This is the constant in our lives. Things will change and I think that it, it's not that grief will go away completely. Mm-hmm. Time has a way of softening. the blow. Right. you learned, I would say you learned to live with it. It's not that you're just gonna forget about it, go on, be the same person you were. All the things kind of society or some people in society want to believe or want us to do. Yes. But it, the pain is not as intense. there might be some times of intensity of pain, even 10 years out, 20 years out, however long, but that it's not as intense. As much as time goes by. Absolutely. I think that's, that's very, very, very accurate. We have these spikes and we can't predict the spikes, but they will come they can come after 40 years. I mean, if it's the right trigger, so to speak. Sure, but on the whole, yes, slowly over time. What happens and you know, one of the misnomers is time heals all wounds. No, but healing does take time. And I like it when you said I'm never gonna be fully healed. Now it's much like breaking your leg. Your leg is never the same. You know, you, you can have surgery and a doctor can tell you good is new. No, it's not. I mean, it's quote fixed and you heal. But lo and behold the weather gets cold enough and you know that you had a broken leg at one point, so you're never fully the same and you never fully heal, but you do move through the grief, and, time does not heal all wounds, but healing does indeed take time. And we move through the grief over time. And when we do that, the grief changes over time. The kind of pain we experience changes, it's a different sort of pain. We still have those big spikes here and there. But eventually what we're looking at is something like, I like to describe it grief, like a overgrown forest. That, you know, you enter this over going forest, you suddenly wake up and find yourself there. There's not really a trail, but you can sort of see a path, but there's debris all over the path. The sunlight's not breaking in at all. It's very dark in there. You've never been here before and you have no idea what to do or where to go. So you pick yourself up, there is a path and you kind of try to find the path, but you stumble forward here and there and after a while you swear you've gone around and round and you're at the same tree again for the 12th time. But the reality is as you move through the grief, slowly, more light comes into your forest. Slowly, the forest is less overgrown. Slowly the path ahead becomes a little clearer than it used to be, and you see, begin to see the obstacles and understand what they are rather than simply tripping over them. And eventually there is more light in your forest and you can see clearly how to move forward. But you're still in the forest. You still feel the grief. Life is not the same, it's just not the same world anymore. I love that analogy. That's a beautiful analogy that I think people can really visualize and relate to. So I asked you what you learned from your grief, especially at such a young age. What have you learned from others about grief? I have learned that grief can absolutely take over a life and sabotage us. Mm-hmm. It can do that. I have also learned that people can endure unbelievable losses and trauma I and somehow heal and somehow contribute. And make a difference in other people's lives. and there's a lot of us in the middle of those two extreme examples, and I've learned that again, there is no checklist for this. There is no rubric for this. We get up each day, we do what we can to, as I say, get the grief out. Do what you can today to get the grief out whatever that means. And as we do that over time, we begin to heal and grow. And as long as we will know, this changes every aspect of my life and that I really have to rebuild my life in so many ways, especially perhaps my relationships. This is hard. It can be just unbelievably hard and painful, but there's always hope. And even if we think we're stuck, we're really not. We just don't see the options. But there are options there. There are always options, but sometimes our grief and pain can blind us too. The options around us or to even anything good occurring around us for a time period. Right. Sadly, I've seen that happen. I, I know a mother who completed suicide after the loss of her son. I know of another mother who drank herself to death and killed herself in that way. I mean, so it can be hard for some people when they're in that dark forest that you mentioned. Absolutely. To even see. Even the slightest bit of path to start taking those steps forward. And do you have any advice?'cause I know there are other people impacted by the outcomes, what happened with those people? I mean, it's just, everyone's connected and it's just so difficult when you do have people that get stuck. And the despair and pit of grief. Yes. Yes. I'm glad you used the word pit. I think it's very, very, very descriptive. When we're in a pit and when we're in the deepest pit and when we look up and we can see no light, the one thing we need to do is not isolate ourselves. Isolation can be deadly. And certainly not healthy. At the very least, it's not healthy. We must, even though everything within us might say, no, I don't want to reach out. No, it's not gonna do any good. No, no, no, no, no, no. There's a part of us sometimes when we get that deep in the pit that. There must be a part of us where self-hatred kicks in and where we want to do damage to ourselves somehow, or we feel guilty or whatever. Or we want to get back at someone else. I mean, whatever the case might be. But we in those moments, need to connect with other people. Even if it's calling the suicide hotline. We need to reach out. Right, and 9, 8, 8 is always available for mental health crisis as well. I wanna remind people of that. Thank you. I also think this podcast can be a way. For people to connect, even though we're not doing it in person, they hear us talking and they know they're not alone. Yes. They know they aren't the only person to ever experience this and this is a form of connection. Even if it's not that, the preferred personal connection. And I would encourage everyone to do that through a counselor or a grief group. And you know, there's these huge groups now of parents who've lost. Kids to fentanyl poisoning are overdosing. All these moms, we all know each other and we show up at the same meetings and, you know, there's some community and some connection in that too. Absolutely. So wherever you find your connection, you need to do it. Yes. We are clearly designed for relationship. we need connection. We can't survive without it. Right. Good point And connection saved your life, you know, connection with another family when you were younger saved your life. And I think it's sad when we lose people in this way because shouldn't be that way. We, we should have stronger support systems in place, but they're not always there. No, they're not. And you're absolutely right. Any other like parting words for people who are in the midst, maybe of early grief or, or who've been in it for a while? Anything else you want people to know? I think a lot of life is about discerning what the truth is and what lies I'm currently believing. Either about myself or about the world. In this case, it could be a lie about grief. Or I should be past this now. I should be here, but I'm not there. People should be more supportive than they are, you know, all of these things that just don't contribute to our grief process. So I think one of, one of the questions that's really valuable for me is that when I'm anxious, when I'm frustrated, when I'm angry, when I'm upset, chances are I'm believing a lie somewhere. So, what, what lie. Am I currently believing? If you practice that, I've discovered sometimes I can figure it out pretty quick. It's pretty obvious. And usually those have roots all the way back in my childhood. They usually have roots way back for all of us. And that's helpful because these are repetitive lies that we believe. if we can expose them and say, okay, that's a lie. What's the truth? Okay, here's a lie. I'm alone. I feel alone. Well, that's different. Yeah. I feel alone versus I'm alone, though. That's two very different things. I feel alone is true. I'm alone. That's a lie. The reality is we're all in this together. We just might not be feeling the connection right now, and we might be feeling very, very, very alone, but we're really not alone. Everyone is grieving on some level. Most people are just trying to fake it through. Hmm. Yeah, that's important to keep in mind. Everyone's going through something on some level, and I think you've provided some wonderful insight and advice. For our listeners today, Gary and I would encourage everyone to head to your website. We'll put a link in the show notes. Will you wanna say what it is for us? Sure. It's just my name, Gary Rowe. G-A-R-Y-R-O e.com.. You have some great resources there You've, how many books have you written on this subject? Over 20. Wow. And you speak all over the country on grief. And thank you for what you're doing. I'm, so glad it's, we're changing a little bit as a society where there are enough of us now who are speaking out about grief and talking about it, that it's a little bit more acceptable than it was, say, 30 years ago. I agree. I'll say we keep chipping away. Yeah. Thank you, Gary. Appreciate it. Thank you very, very, very much. Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of Grieving Out Loud. You can find more information about Roe's Books in the show notes of this episode. We've also posted links to other podcasts where we talk openly and honesty about grief and healing. No matter what you're going through, you are not alone. We hope these conversations can help. Thanks again for listening. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Wonnenberg King and Kayli Fitz.