How do you keep going when your world falls apart? It's a question adults struggle to answer, so imagine how much harder it is for a child. For far too many people, the pain of losing someone they love leads them to reach for something. Anything that may numb the hurt. Often that means turning to substances like alcohol. And when grief is left, unspoken and untreated, that path can become even more tempting. And I went and sat on the stairs and I was looking through, you know, the spindle's, like what's happening? And My older sister came down and said, she's dead. And she went back in a room. So I went back in my room and I was, and I tell you that because. That's how I felt the whole time after that was alone Ellen Ingraham lost her father when she was just two years old, and as if that heartbreak wasn't enough. Her older sister, her best friend, suffered from a life-threatening condition. Ellen, like many others, carrying heavy grief turned to alcohol. And I remember one time she said, you know, she was, We were sitting outside on our porch and she said, I'm really worried. I'm getting sicker and sicker. And I, and I said, no, you'll be fine. I really thought she'd be fine. And like, I'm so glad I have that memory.' 'cause she looked relieved In this episode of Grieving Out Loud, she opens up about her journey, how she faced the pain, found her way to healing, and what she wants others to know if they're struggling too. Well Ellen, welcome to Grieving Out Loud. Our paths have crossed before because we've both worked in the same sort of advocacy space. Uh, You've worked for an organization that's been working to raise awareness about the overdose and fentanyl poisoning crisis just like we have. And you have a personal connection to all this and that you have suffered from substance use disorder. Yes, I have, I got sober when we still called it alcoholism, and I don't mind using that word. You know, I'm in a 12 step program. We introduce ourselves, we say we're an alcoholic, and that doesn't bother me at all. I understand they're trying to take the stigma out of it, which is fine. whatever gets anyone into recovery, I'm all for it. Many paths. How many years have you been in recovery? It was 35 January 1st. congratulations. Thank you. huge. Thank you. talk about your journey today. We're gonna talk about your battle with substance use disorder or alcoholism, Mm-hmm. we're gonna talk about how some of that is rooted in grief. Maybe all of it is rooted in grief and you're a little bit, older. Not to say you're old, but you were born and raised in a time when grief was really taboo, right? I mean, it was just like, tell me, can you, we have, you know, younger listeners, older listeners, but can you kind of paint the picture or set up for me, you know, the years and what was happening and going on in your family? I was born into Irish Catholic family i'm 85% Irish, and I say I got my good skin and my alcoholism for my genes. A lot of Ellen's life circumstances could also have led her to battle with substance use disorder. Her early years started off happy, but then her dad died when she was two, leaving behind three daughters, including Ellen.. My mom remarried when I So my mother's name was Margaret Mary O'Mara, O'Connell Dooley. And. he was a lovely man. I called him dad on the way home from the wedding. Apparently. I asked him if I could call him dad. oh, You were lucky. You were lucky. I hear horror stories sometimes about I know. Oh, so blessed. He was so, he was a good provider. He was atter an attorney and, um, you know, we had a really nice life. Her mom and stepfather then welcomed another daughter into the family. And for a while, life felt normal, but there was always a shadow. Ellen's older sister Maureen had been born with   Tetralogy of Fallot a rare and serious birth condition caused by a combination of four heart defects. So she, um, the, The average lifespan was 10 then, but she got really good care and lived till 14. Um, so until about eighth. She was in eighth grade and I was in sixth grade and we were in this small Catholic, Grammar school, St. Joseph's in Dens, New Jersey. And, uh, she couldn't go to school anymore, so she was calling, we called it tutoring back then, not homeschooled. And, uh, her, our bedrooms were upstairs and she was getting to the point where she couldn't walk up the stairs. So I would carry her, I would give her a piggyback ride up the stairs, uh, when we went up. To bed or whatever. And I also felt very much, like a caretaker for her. Um, she would. Throw up a lot. And I asked her what I could do to help her and she said, you know, get a glass of water and a washcloth. So whenever I heard her throwing up, I would bring her that. And although we had the normal sibling fights and everything, you know, she, she was my childhood. She, you know, everything, all my memories worrying is in them. And we ended up moving when I was in seventh grade, uh, to, uh, another town that was far away from, uh, crest Hill where we lived. And I went to a public school and she was home all the time then. And so nobody really knew her. And, um, she died, uh, in New York Hospital. When I was 12. Yeah. And so I heard my grandmother and my great aunts were staying with us and she was in and outta the hospital, uh, a lot. So I never really thought about. It was like kind of normal for me. And I remember one time she said, you know, she was, we were sitting outside on our porch and she said, I'm really worried. I'm getting sicker and sicker. And I, and I said, no, you'll be fine. I really thought she'd be fine. And like, I'm so glad I have that memory.'cause she looked relieved Ellen still very vividly remembers the day when she was 12 years old and learned that her sister, her best friend, had died. she got worse and worse and so that day. I heard, uh, the phone ring and I heard my grandmother and great aunts, you know, kind of cry out and they were sobbing, which was not typical in our family. And I went and sat on the stairs and I was looking through, you know, the spindle's, like what's happening? And my older sister came down and said, she's dead. And she went back in a room. So I went back in my room and I was, and I tell you that because. That's how I felt the whole time after that was alone because we stopped going down the shore. You know, we had moved. So no one knew Maureen. That was in my life and we just stopped talking about her. So she was erased she was erased. Yeah, that's not unusual. I have a whose, um, aunt died uh, her mother, um. in her mother's family and the grandfather, the dad said we will never speak of this again. We'll, never After they buried her, we will never talk about her again. Yes, yes. When I talk to people who lost siblings, it's the same thing. There is no such thing as family therapy, sibling therapy. No one talked to me about her and I just, I think I got that feeling that I was not worth talking to. Like some people say you feel guilty that you caused it when you're a child and you're grieving, but I didn't feel that. I just felt. I didn't know it at the time, you know, it was subconscious. It wasn't until years of therapy later that I realized that that what was going on. And whenever I would see people that did know her, they would always say, your poor mother. Your poor mother. And it was taking care of my mother from then on. How did your mother do after the death Maureen? you know, in retrospect, she was very depressed and going through the motions and. you can't blame her. I believe they did the best they can, you know, at the time with what they had. But this, um, sort of ignoring the trauma and the grief, kind of just putting it on a shelf somewhere and forgetting about it, Yeah. what does that do to members of a family you? What, you know, started to talk about that, Yeah, it, it wasn't, it wasn't good. It was like a veil of sadness over our house. And I sort of, it's funny, I sort of went on normally, like I didn't know how to behave in school. I. I heard someone say, very popular girl, say, oh, I don't show my feelings in public. And I thought, oh, okay. That's what I'll do. I just won't show my feelings. Oh. And I read somewhere that. Tears are, uh, most tears are of self pity. And so I didn't wanna feel sorry for myself, so I kind of shut down. And it's funny, Angela, 'cause I had like eighth grade, I hit my stride. I was popular, I was a cheerleader. I had a great boyfriend. it was like, I don't know, tucked down somewhere. But when I, I was voted most popular and I was sitting on the bleachers. I remember this moment. The woman said, congratulations on getting most popular. And I just thought to myself, I have them all fooled. So part of me must have felt like a imposter even then. yeah, I was gonna say that Yeah. syndrome, and I think a lot of people that feel. Like they're sort of faking it for the world. End up using a Yeah. And then of course. Yeah. That summer I picked up a drink for the first time. At just 12 years old, Ellen didn't just sneak a sip of alcohol. She drank enough to get drunk. I got drunk at my uncle's wedding when I was 12, and they had to barricade me in the bathroom. Oh my gosh. That's. unusual behavior, isn't it? I don't know. I was back in this, we were at a country club. I was back in this screen him porch and they were bringing all you know, the champagne left in the glasses and I decided to drink it all. And then I went out and told the priest that I loved him and he brought me to my mother and said, Mrs. Dooley, your daughter is drunk. And they all thought it was funny. So. Yeah. So it was just sort of like, ha ha, ha ha. And yeah, have immediate reaction to the drinking? Do you remember what you thought loved it. Loved Loved it. right Yes. Right away. And I believe the, you know, that our chemistry's different addicts and that we react differently to substances. And the feeling of euphoria is almost immediate and relief. so my my life kind of went downhill from there for a while, but I, you know, I functioned I didn't do very well in high school, but I went to college Um, You know, got a nursing degree and worked as a nurse for a few years. you were working in the medical profession. Did they ever cover substance use or alcoholism in the medical profession when you were, you know, training or working Oh, when I was training, we, we had to go to three AA meetings, and I knew even then that I was gonna end up there. In fact, in ninth grade, they had a, something about alcoholism. I knew, I knew then I have this, but I'm gonna control it. I'll be in control. Because I wasn't a daily drinker. I didn't get drunk every time I drank. But once, like, someone asked me when I came into the program, if you could have gotten drunk every time you drank, would you have? And I'm like, absolutely. I wanted oblivion. do you think you were seeking that oblivion because of buried grief and emotion that you'd learned to not show your emotions? And is that why, or do you think it's a combination of factors? I think it's nature, nurture. I do believe that when I look back on seventh and eighth grade, The only thing I could think of is that I children grieve differently, and I was a child and when I started becoming an adult, I, you know, developed a severe anxiety disorder and so I was medicating myself with alcohol And do you think you developed that anxiety disorder because of the drinking? Because I think yeah. what we know now about these substances on the developing brain. I mean, you Yeah. young. Yeah. I think it was a combination of unresolved grief and, you know, I have trouble today saying that was trauma. I. I don't know why, maybe 'cause it wasn't addressed at the time. I really don't know why. But when I think of other people's trauma like being abused or some of the awful stories you hear, I think that's trauma. What I had wasn't trauma. Yeah, interesting. Yeah. would think anytime you lose a sibling that that's trauma on the, other children, in the family. And when your whole Yeah. your parents are grieving, that's traumatic for kids 'cause they don't know what to do. And also like you grieve the loss of your sister as a 12-year-old. But then you grieve that relationship in a different way when you're older, Yeah, Because you absolutely. what you lost when Yes. Yeah. really wrap your brain around it. Yeah, I think so. I'm still working on that. I think because maybe because it wasn't treated as a trauma at the time Mm-hmm. that that's the message I got. Well, thank goodness not everybody chooses to, but thank goodness people can be more open about these things today and Absolutely. them. But at what point did your drinking get outta control, and did you know that you really had to do something about it? So I think it was always outta control. Hmm. you know, 'cause I would binge, I would black out, but I pretty much showed up for work. And I always had good friends. I always made good friends. I still have all my high school friends. I have a couple college friends. I stay in touch with people. I'm very open and I'm into forming relationships, deepening relationships. And that's another thing about my family that I learned when I was in corporate. And I was doing some personality, you know, profiles that I'm open in a closed family. And that was another issue for me, I think I wasn't allowed to be myself. I felt kind of alien and a lot of addicts feel that way. Whether it's self-imposed or true, Despite her battle with alcohol addiction, Ellen continued to work first as a nurse for four years, and then in pharmaceutical research. So then I got a sales job and I met my husband I was drinking this whole time and we were married and a year and a half into marriage, we, started trying to have a baby. And I was really excited, Angela, because one of the things about addicts is, you know, I think we share is self-hatred. You know, just hate ourselves. Like I never thought someone would love me enough to get married or. I never thought I could have children, and I was really so sad about that, but covering it up like, oh, I don't, you know, I don't need a man, I don't need to get married. I never had a relationship a long-term relationship. Where did the self-hatred come from, do you think? Because you mentioned, you know, you were in a loving home. I mean, while your mother may have been depressed after your sister died, Yeah. sounds like she was a good mom and you had a good stepdad. And Yeah. where do you think the self-hatred came from? well, I did get bullied a lot. but also I just think it's from the drinking. Mm, the addiction itself, yeah. it's sort of a trap, right? Yes, yourself because you're drinking, yes. using something you know isn't healthy or good for you. Part of you knows that. Oh yeah, I knew it. Yeah. And then you start to hate yourself'cause you're doing it anyway. Yeah. by this time it is a disease of the brain's taken over your brain, Yeah, then you start to hate yourself because that makes sense to yeah, yeah. Yeah, started having a weight problem. Which, you know, is another addiction, like a food addiction. But I, you know, it was a medication sure. and so I've struggled with that since I was in um, high school. And when I would gain weight, you know, my old boyfriends would make fun of me and, you know, just a lot of negative feedback. And then I'd lose weight and I'd get another boyfriend and, you know, I just started feeling I'm only valued when I look good. I'm sure most women. A lot of women. A lot of women, right? And so then you started, you, you wanted to start this family. You were married. Somebody did love you, right? Yeah. loved you Yes. to start a family. What happened then? So I didn't know whether I was pregnant and I drank, and I was standing in the kitchen and I was pouring. Some alcohol and a glass and drinking it and pouring and gl and I was like, I don't even want to do this. Why am, why? And I just, I was so depressed and befuddled and I called an old friend Georgia I had met through a friend in high school out of the blue. I called her and she told me she was sober and I started crying and. Saying, I think I have a problem. And she's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I, that's not why I told you. And I, I, just think she was my first guardian angel that my higher power put in my life. And I went into New York and went to a meeting with her, and that was January of 1990. And haven't had a drink since. So you just stopped after that point. You started going to meetings. You never went into any kind of treatment facility. You just went to meetings. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. for you. That worked for me. While Ellen was able to find sobriety through Alcoholics Anonymous meetings without going to a treatment center, she says the journey was incredibly difficult. Yeah. One of the reasons I I never drank again is I didn't want to go through early sobriety again. It is so awful. The feelings that you get are so out of proportion to what's going on around you. Because like someone told me, the, the first death in sobriety is like the grief of all the deaths that have happened while you were drinking. like I used to say, the feelings like bigger than the house, the town, the universe, and you think you're gonna die. And one of my sponsors said It's the death wave. it's like a tidal wave of pain that you think you're gonna die and you just have to walk through it, and then the next wave might be that big in the next wave. But eventually you get to the lasagne noodle of life. Doesn't mean that you're not gonna get hit with the tidal wave again, but one thing when you get through early sobriety and you don't. Use mind altering substances to stop that kind of pain and anxiety. it's made me feel like I can do, I can get through anything. Yeah. learned to manage your anxiety in other ways. Do you still have anxiety? Once I had Maureen, well, I named my daughter after my sister, Oh. when I had Maureen, I started getting a lot of anxiety about her dying. Oh sure. I, was in therapy, but then I really got into therapy and did unresolved grief work. And 10 years into sobriety, I had the worst anxiety ever. I'd had a son and gone through postpartum depression and, I had a terrible, you know, situation in life that was couple years, like we all do. We go through stuff and I got this lump in my throat and. It felt like an egg was in my throat or someone was holding on to my esophagus. And so I went to a GI guy. I got a upper endoscopy and they're standing around me and there's all these residents and he said it, it is a classic case of, something hysteria. manufactured in your mind, Yes, it's a manifest session of anxiety that, common? I mean, people yes, something in their, I've never heard of that before. yes, yes, yes. Globus Hystericus now more commonly known as Globus sensation, is that strange feeling like there's a lump stuck in your throat even when there's nothing actually there. As Ellen pointed out, it's surprisingly common. In fact, research indicates that nearly half of Americans experience it at some point. For some people it comes and goes, but for others it's long lasting. while anxiety is often the main cause issues like acid reflux can trigger it too. So I was put on depressive in SSRI and my world changed. hmm. I was like, is this how normal people feel? It worked for me a hundred percent. And so I'm very, very grateful for that because I realized everything I had done in my life and I had. Done a lot and changed careers a lot and you know, had children and got sober. I did all that with a terrible anxiety disorder, you know, and all of a sudden it was treated and for me, it worked really well. So I get upset when people bash medication because maybe it's overprescribed, but what happens if it's not prescribed for people that need it? I mean, there's a reason, and you needed it. And you grew up in a time where not only was, uh, grief suppressed, but also any kind of mental health Mm-hmm. was, you know. a weakness Yes. wasn't always treated Right. people didn't even realize, like, I have got a friend who suffered debilitating anxiety. Nobody ever talked about it. She didn't know what she was going through. You know, later now as an adult, of course she understands what it is, but for a while she just was going, she was Yeah. Yes, because nobody talked about these absolutely. God. I mean, it feels like the whole world is suffering from anxiety and depression and maybe they always were. You know, just it wasn't Yes. and especially younger people talk about it and thank God. And do you remain on antidepressants to this day? do. Yeah. Yeah. They continue to help you. Yeah. That's great. I'm on Lexapro 30, which is a high dose. But it works for me and I was on other ones, you know, on and off, on and off. I don't do well when I'm off them, so, you know, nobody wants to be on medication. Well, of course not. But if it helps you, it's just like any other drug for any other disease. A disease of the mind is no different than a disease of the body. Right. Right. we'll, gladly stay on drugs for a disease of the body for our entire lives if we need to. Right? So if it's a disease of the mind and you need that, you need that. But I wonder if you wouldn't have turned to alcohol at all if you would've had an early intervention and been treated for depression Hmm. I anxiety. don't know. Yeah. It's hard to say, but many people are self-medicating, for Yeah, I think I would've always been an alcoholic. Just, unless I didn't pick up a drink because of the way I felt when I was on it, you know, the instant release and relief. These days, Ellen is still happily married, nearing 40 years with her husband. They've settled into a small town in Colorado where jobs in the recovery field are hard to come by, but that hasn't stopped her. She still finds ways to help like chairing virtual meetings and staying connected with others in recovery. I still chair a Zoom meeting that started in New Jersey during COVID , we kept doing it for people that are immunocompromised or just like, you know, to hit a meeting. So I chair that every Tuesday and it's nice 'cause I have that New Jersey connection still.'cause I spent 30 years there sober. I support a lot of women. I do not nonprofit work now, and I tell people I'm sober. you, , You can't break your own anonymity, right? I could tell anyone I want that. I'm. Sober in a 12 step program. I think one of the feelings is that that's a lack of humility. But I think if I go around saying I'm 35 years sober, that's a lack of humility. Like, look at me. Wow. Look what I did. Yeah. If I just say. I don't drink, I'm sober., If anyone, you know, ever wants to talk to someone about themselves, their drinking or their family member, I'm always available. sometimes yeah. the anonymous part of Alcoholics Anonymous can be more. Harmful, then helpful because it's kept sort of the disease in the shadows. And I think it's really important to talk about it and to see all the different people from different walks of life that it Yeah. and affects. And that's the thing. I mean, I understand what you're saying about humility, but I still think it's important to talk about our truth. Not to brag, but to talk about our truth ' because I think that can really help other people. Yeah, I wanna normalize it and take the stigma away from it. And for me it's a humbling experience to tell people because a lot, you know, there's still stigma. There's still Oh, oh, she, oh well, and you know, everybody buys me. Non-alcoholic cider. When I go to a party, I'm like, why would I drink those empty calories? Just gimme some ER water. right. I hear you. That was another question I actually had for Mm-hmm. is just. Yeah. So socially acceptable, women are now drinking as much as men. I've done podcasts with a liver doctor about, you know, how women are now having more liver disease and see this just really pushed on people. Alcohol's a part of ev, alcohol's a part of children's birthday parties now and high school graduations. It kind of shocks me sometimes, but Yeah. how do you live in a world alcohol is so. Accessible all the time, and so socially expected. Well in New Jersey, most of my friends were sober and my husband didn't drink. He was a state trooper and I'm lucky that both my kids are gonna drink. You know, they socially drink, but, oh, thank God. Really? They didn't get the bad genes as we say in our family. So it was great 'cause there's no alcohol in my house. It, we had sober parties. Here it's a little different 'cause I have neighborhood friends and I have yoga friends and people, you know, that. drink. I still have, my main group of friends is sober women here, so what we're taught is that if we have a reason to be somewhere where there's alcohol, it's fine. You know, you don't go hang out in a bar just to be social, and I would say 95% of the time, it doesn't bother me at all. When people start getting loud, noisy, and sloppy, yeah. I'm outta there. You know, they always say, bring your own way to get outta somewhere. and I do, but you know, my daughter's friends invite us to parties and they're, a lot of them are big drinkers and it's, it's fine. It really, you know, because it's not that I can say because I'm sober a long time, it's because I do the work to stay sober and stay spiritually fit. So it's really a spiritual program. You know, I tried to quit drinking for 20 years and I couldn't on my own. And then as soon as I, you know, the first step is admit your powerless over alcohol in your life. So manageable came to believe that second step, that a power greater than yourself could restore us to sanity. And then may you make a decision to turn your will and your life over to the care of God as you understand him. So. It's not that it doesn't cross my mind, I. Or that I don't want to, my husband drinks wine occasionally with dinner now. Well, when we go out, he has a glass of wine and I sometimes I just wanna chuck it. But he puts it away where I can't. I'm like, push that away so I can't smell it. And, you know, I'll, I'll always be that way because that's my body, that's how I'm built. And I accept that. And it doesn't matter so much to me anymore why I am the way I am. I just have to do the treatment. I think about that a lot because I, I have friends and of course people we worked with, who are sober and I think, it can be a hard world to navigate with alcohol being so everywhere, right? I mean, it's just. Yeah. At every occasion, and I, often wonder how that, people really deal with that. Yeah. I think it's sweet when people. text me or email me and say, it's, if it, you know, like one of my, with the nonprofit work, we're meeting at a bar. Is that okay? Yes. That's okay. I can go to a bar. Right. Right. You're allowed in Yeah. I mean, and And you never feel tempted like that Your husband has a glass of wine and you don't feel like it's a thought that comes and goes. It's not an obsession, you know? don't have to act on that thought. Right. that's one thing that you learn over the years. Yeah, don't have to act on every thought you have. Exactly. And it's okay to have those thoughts. I'm, you know, I'm not cured. with for the rest of yeah. Yeah. And I, the rewards are amazing. I mean, I raised two kids sober with sober women around me. community, the connection. It's what I, sort of live for you know, appreciate it. And because of those years of self torment, you know, if I start ever feeling sorry for myself, I'm like, look at my life, you know, just filled with gratitude Yeah, because you, can also show people that once you go on that path to recovery, that your life can be beautiful and meaningful and so much better, so much better. So much better. I, I do believe like the more I know myself and the gentler I am with myself, I can be that way with other people and help help 'em and understand that we're just human. We make mistakes and that's okay. You know, and I want people around me. I have this. Friendship theory, like my A team is the people that are current with me. They know what's going on. If they hurt me, I tell them and I want them to tell me. That's very important to me if I ever hurt them. And that's how to me, you, you grow a friendship and you have more intimacy. And then on my B team are just like my friends, like that I go to yoga with or water aerobics or, and then the C team is, you know, it goes on and on. And DTE are people that I don't want in my life and I don't have time for anymore. I won't be bullied, I won't be disrespected, I won't be cursed out. And some of that just comes from age. Right? As you get older, I think you have less tolerance for that kind of thing. do you feel like you've fully processed the grief of losing Maureen? No, I still can cry about it sometimes. I still like, I'll have a wave of nostalgia and I miss her. And I just wonder what it would've been like to have her as an adult sister, like Whenever I lament getting old, is that the right word? I just think, wow., What would Maureen have given to live, you know, this long Yeah. Yeah. thank you so much for sharing your story, your family's story, and your story. And I know there are other people out there listening that it will certainly touch and we'll be able to relate to what you've said. I just really appreciate your openness to do that. Thank you so much. I, I'm really, truly honored to be here, Angela, and I love the work you're doing and I'm so sorry about Emily and, you know, thank you for devoting your life in her honor. Yeah. Thank you for saying that. It's, it gives me a lot of relief from my grief to do the work, so I'm gonna keep doing it. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this episode of Grieving Out Loud. You can check out other episodes, read my blog, and find the latest news headlines surrounding substance use disorder and the opioid epidemic on our website. Emily's Hope Doc Charity. We've also included links in the show notes to similar episodes, especially those focused on women and alcohol addiction. And while you're there, we'd be so grateful if you could rate and review this episode and please share it with your friends and family. You probably know someone who needs to hear it. Every share helps break the stigma and brings us one step closer to getting more people the life-changing support they need. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Wonnenberg King and Kaylee Fitz.