New York City is home to more than twice the population of any other US city. So when a story makes headlines there, it usually something big. But for Scott Caddell, the reason his son's name spread across the East Coast is horrific. There was a 350 pound guy in the backyard with a baseball bat. And they beat him to death. Over four Over four ounces of weed. That's correct That's the same thing that the detective said. We've never seen this before. But that's only a piece of Scott's heartbreaking story. He's lost not one but two kids each in devastating and deeply painful ways. And before that, he phased his own battle with substance use disorder, a struggle that began when he was just a kid himself. I have developed a bad case of low self-esteem. Why can't I do it? Why can't I be like my buddies? And what better way to deal with low self-esteem than altering your feelings? In this episode of Grieving Out Loud, Scott shares his heartbreaking story with honesty and strength. After losing two of his children and facing his own struggles with addiction, he opens up about the pain, the lessons he wished he'd learned sooner, and how he's finding a way forward after the unthinkable has happened.. I would say, Angela, that how I've survived is I am numb. I don't feel anymore. I have no feelings. Well, Scott Cadell, thank you so much for joining me on Grieving Out Loud. Really appreciate you being here to share your story. It is a very powerful one. It's almost unbelievable in so many ways, but it happened to you and I think it's important for others to hear so. So thank you. Thank you, Angela. I'm happy to be here. Can we start off by talking about your history? You're a musician, you're married to a musician. yes. I'll go back to my days. A 12-year-old boy living on Staten Island and seeing the Beatles on the Ed Sullivan show one night. Okay. It was a profound moving experience. Don't know why, but it, hit me harder than I guess other people. might've had something to do with the fact that I was never a good student in school with my attention Deficit disorder, which is an amazing amazingly, condition where you'll look at a book and read it over and over and not get anything out of it. I can still remember the first time that something wasn't right. When you were growing up, did people even know what Attention Deficit Disorder was? We were stupid. That's basically what we were. So as you're getting into junior high and high school, you buy now. Have or I have developed a bad case of low self-esteem. I bet. Yeah. Why can't I do it? Why can't I be like my buddies? And what better way to deal with low self-esteem than altering your feelings? At the age of 15 or 16, I was drinking a six pack of beer on a Saturday night. My parents knew it, I guess in those days it wasn't such a bad thing. I don't know. And they knew where we were. We had friends across the street whose parents didn't care either. We were downstairs at their bar. Um, It was accepted. And more importantly, every parent wants to know where their child is and they knew exactly where we were. At first, Scott says he mainly drank during the weekends, but soon it escalated to drinking during the week, and by his senior year, he was even consuming alcohol during school. I'd be drinking during lunch and school. I just liked the way it made me feel. But after high school, when Scott was 21, he decided to try cocaine just to experiment, he thought, but that one time was all it took. He says he was hooked from the start. The feeling of euphoria was something like I had never known. As a matter of fact, I stopped drinking because it didn't compare with the feeling of cocaine. And that wild ride lasted for 25 years. Wow. So for 25 years you used cocaine. Yes. What effects did that have on your body, your life, your career? It was ever changing. An addiction is ever changing. At first. It's a social thing. You are hanging out with people, laughing, talking. Then it morphs into an isolation drug where you stay alone, you don't talk to people. I ran my own business, so it never affected my ability to get to work. I knew that without money, there's no drugs. That's an expensive habit to maintain as well. it was pretty expensive. But you would, you know, you'd, run up to Manhattan and you'd buy a big package and you would sell it, and you end up with some for free for yourself. You know, everything's calculated. And it was dangerous. It was dangerous for my health. It was dangerous in the surroundings and the places I went to get it. Physically I was a runner and this is crazy, but I would go running every day and I'd be doing cocaine while I was running. Wow. You know, daughter was also a runner and she was using drugs while she was running. So you think of running as being part of a healthy lifestyle. Right. And drugs is not, Usually of a healthy lifestyle. Yeah. But it doesn't make sense. Right? no, big old heart attack could have come at any time, but you're just thinking about getting to your place that a drug could take you. Like most people who suffer from substance use disorder, Scott's addiction began impacting all areas of his life from his marriage to being a father. Where's dad, you know, at six in the morning or whatever. toward the end of my run with drugs over the last eight years of it, I would mix alcohol and cocaine, would make me inebriated. I, I couldn't speak. I was out of it. It was a balancing act of alcohol and cocaine, But in 2005, after battling addiction for more than two decades, Scott was ready to make a change. He started attending Narcotics Anonymous and Alcoholics Anonymous and his journey to recovery began. So what helped you get into recovery? What helped you? well, my wife was ready to pull the plug on our marriage. I felt bad for my children. I would yell at my kids because I'd be in a very hungover state or whatever, just Well, up and down, right. Up and down all the time. I mean, I've lived with someone suffering from substance use disorder, and I know what that's like. the lows are so low. Oh yeah. And, you become an insomnia act on that drug even when you're not doing it. I've heard that. It can rest in your muscles and release at night when you relax. So I had horrible insomnia, did you ever relapse? Oh yeah. Yeah not for a long time, but, you know, at the end there's, it's, it's a rollercoaster thing, you know, Mm-hmm. eventually you enjoy those pieces of feeling good and a good night's sleep and, you can't buy that. Right? Your health, really? Once Scott quit using illicit drugs, everything started to change his work life, his relationships, his whole outlook. But with that clarity came a painful realization, just how much damage his addiction had done to the people he loved and the life he was trying to build. After you step out of that behavior, you realize how nasty you can be. How short-tempered, thoughtless, you know, you wonder, oh geez, why don't these people like me? Oh, it's because I acted a certain way for years and years. you know, you become aware where, Is that hard to live with? well, the way I treated my oldest boy is hard to live with Christopher. You know, sometimes I would smack him talk really nasty to him. That haunts me. That haunts me. He was such a. Good kid. And yeah, he had troubles. Do you think those troubles had to do with the dynamics in the family or hereditary? Both. I think it's a, a, a mix of his own emotional disorders compounded with my behavior and my wife and I fighting and screaming that kind of thing. I think that definitely had effect on him. Right. This, it's a generational issue oftentimes Scott says his first real concerns about his son Christopher, began about the age 11. That's when he started to notice signs of an eating disorder, anorexia, and realized something much deeper was going on. Oh, Look back and I think it's because I was so strict with him. I think he wanted to do something that I could not control. yeah. Isn't anorexia about control? Yeah. And I believe I had a lot to do with it. Remember being on vacation in Belize with my sister and her two girls, and and Chris. And we went out for supper one night and it was a nice restaurant. Beautiful. And I was aware of what he was doing. He wasn't eating. And out of the corner of my eye, I saw him take his chicken off the plate and put it in his pocket. was like Houdini. He was a master of disguise and doing those things, And I went wild. I, I just, I couldn't stand it. You're watching your child emaciation starving themselves. Very disturbing. we started bringing him to the doctor. He would put ankle weights on, under his pants to boost his weight up so the doctor would say, oh, he's getting better. Oh my gosh. he was way ahead of the curve. We had no idea. But when we finally did realize it, and we finally knew, you know, we'd be finding food all over the house and closets and pants and pockets and, you know, it was just really frustrating Then Scott says, A psychologist prescribed his son Zoloft, which seemed to make a difference. Christopher was doing well in school, excelling in sports, and showed real talent as a writer. Christopher was brilliant. He won. A New York Post writing award. His writing was so good. It made me think, who did you steal that from? Because I doubted him. it was all his really, really good. He wrote an article about Mark McGuire, the famous baseball home run slugger. That was the article that got picked up by the New York Post and published for their writing Oh But by the time Christopher turned 16, things began to shift again. Scott says his son became defiant, pushing back hard against his parents in a way they hadn't seen him before he even began stealing from them and his younger brother Ian. He started pumping iron, watching, fighting techniques, He got strong, but he became defiant At age 16, Joan and I were afraid. We didn't feel comfortable living in the house. He was stealing from us. He was stealing from Ian. Whenever Ian would get a Game boy or something like that, it would be stolen and taken to a, a pawn shop. Had your house become un unmanageable at this point with Christopher? Yeah. extreme fighting. He'd asked to do something to Joan, would say no. Then he'd come to me, you know that story, Yeah. then I'd say, no. And then it was a huge, loud battle, My daughter was like that too. She didn't wanna take no for an answer. and she would scream, and I wouldn't scream and yell back. I would just become more silent and talk softer. But she would scream and yell or carry on or come at you, you know? And those things were um, so, so surprising to me. You know, he stole thousands of dollars from me. Uh, I had a safe downstairs, and smart Chris figured out the combination and he would help himself. I think he probably went through about $8,000, something like that. What was he spending it on at 16? Paintball, guns, tennis rackets, basketballs. He would give money to people for, good. Hmm. So, yeah, it was crazy., You know, I was never, I. angel, but I never stole from my parents, so I just, it blew me away that he could do that. I hear about kids doing, Emily never stole from us either, ever. Which I was always worried, like sometimes I would buy her clothes and I would think, oh, is she gonna go sell those clothes, brand new clothes to get money? She didn't. yeah. but I was always worried about that because you hear about those kinds of things. Yes, you do. it was a man driver in, in our arguments anyway. Um, At age 16, Joan had arranged this school at three o'clock in the morning. I had just come back from the Newport Folk Festival, probably around midnight, and I knew these guys were coming at three o'clock in the morning. These two big guys came into our house, woke Christopher up and took 'em away. Wow. Three o'clock. That is very dramatic. Why? All the drama Christopher was a strong kid. We knew that we couldn't do it. And through the help of the school, they had these guys and they came in, we walk 'em up and he was of course like a deer in the headlights. we said, Chris, can't live with you anymore. You're gonna go away to a school. And was this a military type school or what? You could say it was a bit of that, but it was Hmm. a building in the middle of Utah You were locked in. I would say there were probably a hundred students there. You go to class every day, you had group therapy once a week you'd have individual therapy. The idea that made sense. And we would go visit him once a month all of that sounds incredibly expensive. Yeah, Back then 50,000 a year. I Wow. did two years. Two years. A lot of money. But it's your child, right? Right, right. And sometimes, I mean, I looked at some of those things for Emily, like sending her away.'cause her behaviors were so outrageous to a school. And then I was so afraid to send her away. I was so afraid to have her away from me. Yeah. I don't know what the right answer is. I, I don't know. Nobody does. But when you're in crisis, you search for anything. And these think these companies, these organizations that run these kinds of things know that, and that's why they're able to charge so much. They know parents are at their, you know, it's the last resort there. end. Yeah. So he did pretty well. He graduated high school early, and then he started taking college classes at age 17 and a half in Brigham Young University he stayed in Utah. until he was 18. Because we as parents we can do that until the day they turn 18. And then the law says you can't do that anymore unless they yes. But Christopher wanted to come home, so just two weeks shy of his 18th birthday, he made the move back to New York. And the school told us, don't recommend that he comes back to your house. For 90 days, we recommend you put him in an apartment let him prove himself that he wants to come back home. Well, what did we know? But that was the wrong approach. What he needed was love. And he needed acceptance. it, it didn't work. you know, he started using cocaine. Probably got that idea from me. mostly it was smoking weed that was his thing. And I wasn't really too worried about that. But he became defiant again, and I had to go to court and file an order of protection keep him out of our house, Wow, which is a heartbreaking thing that is heartbreaking. That that just sounds awful. Yep. you know, and sometimes he would come around, I'd say, you can't be here. And he was mad. He was very angry. Things started to turn around. After a few months, Christopher wasn't so defiant anymore. He started joining the family for Sunday dinners and even came to work with Scott. You know, I was in entertainment, so I would do shows in various parts that I would bring him to New Orleans to work at the New Orleans Jazz Festival. man, he came in a sad puppy in the beginning and left and feeling so much better. It was just a miracle to watch that. And although he worked, came to work with me every day and went home with me. I didn't chaperone him and I didn't watch over him. He worked with his own crew and it was amazing what that did for him as far as his mental health. Scott has a lot of good memories working side by side with his son at festivals and events, but even during those good times, Christopher was still struggling. One conversation in particular is etched in Scott's memory forever. It happened on September 14th, 2009, just one day before Christopher died. Came into this very room that I'm sitting in and he broke down and started crying and he said, I'm sick of my life. I can't take it anymore. I don't want to sell pot anymore.'cause he was selling a lot of pot and that that's how he got his money, right? and I calmed him down. I said, look, Chris, you're 22. I didn't get my act together till I was 24. So if you're anything like me, which you are, it's gonna come. I said, you're a hard worker. you like to make money. And that was the last time I saw him. The next night he owed money for rent and he got a call from these two guys that he knew. They said, meet at at so-and-so's house and we want four ounces of pot. got there around nine o'clock the one kid met him in the street and walked him into the yard.'cause Chris didn't know that the house was abandoned. They foreclosed. had been in that house before when it was occupied, and there was a 350 pound guy in the backyard with a baseball bat. And they beat him to death. Over four ounces of weed. That's correct That's the same thing that the detective said. We've never seen this before. Well, do you have any idea what happened? I mean, I know all the details. I know that instead of knocking Chris out, the guy just kept swinging. just trying to take the weed without paying for it. That's correct. and they killed him. Well, it I, a slow oh. He there in that yard moaning pretty loud, I guess.'cause the neighbor heard it and called the police. And this particular guy had been in trouble with the law before, so he didn't want to get really involved. But , it was bothering him and his wife to hear this. He called the police and got into an argument and you know, he called like three or four times. He said, you guys need to do your job. You need to get over here. Well, eventually they came, they never got out of the car. Christopher was on the other side of a fence. By that time, he stopped moaning and they found him around 2:00 AM He had died just like that. Yeah, very sad. A comedy of errors is the way I would describe it. When you got the news, I mean, you couldn't have been prepared for that. The doorbell rang at about four o'clock in the morning. The doorbell, cell phone and house phone all went off at the same time, went downstairs. There were two detectives at the door and they walked in. I thought that Christopher maybe killed himself because of the night before, Right. they told us, and I remember watching Ian, the quiet kid, and he just withdrew, didn't cry, and we were basket cases, you know, we never went back to bed. We just stayed up and we cried. Of course. Was anyone prosecuted in his case? oh yeah. geniuses didn't realize that cell phones have a memory, and as soon as the detectives got there, they took my son's cell phone, which was still in his pocket. We should note this is 2009 and cell phones were not as evolved as they are today. Smartphones. Yeah. So they took the phone to the crime lab and they extracted the phone

00 PM and they tracked this kid down and he turned over quickly on the other guy. And they arrested him later that day. He got sentenced to 23 years. The other guy got sentenced to 10. He's out already. The man who actually beat him with the baseball bat, the larger man was sentenced to 23 years. And I, I'm sure many parents of homicide victims know that those sentences, there is no closure. That word No. bandy about. There's no closure. I just want to wait till the day he gets out.'cause I wanna punch him in the nose, you know? You still feel anger. you're not my God. It'll never go away. Yeah. I said, guess what? Now you're responsible for two deaths Because my other son had to turn to drugs.'cause he couldn't live with what you did to his brother? And is that what happened in Ian's case? Was it the trauma? Oh wow. It was unbelievable. So happened when Ian was a junior in high school, I think., That's how old two of my kids were when their sister died. Yeah. Tough. It's tough to watch It is, we've done a whole IT series on sibling grief and it is often overlooked and not talked about, but it impacts, and especially at such, you know, tender ages, I'll call it, you know, those high school years and, If you'd like to check out that series on sibling grief, just head over to the show notes of this podcast. While you're there, we'd appreciate it if you take a moment to rate and review this episode and share it with your friends and family. Also, if you have an idea for a podcast episode, we'd love to hear from you. You can find contact information in the show notes. As for Ian Scott says, things seem to be going well. He graduated from high school, earned a scholarship to Northeastern University in Boston, and had no trouble making friends. But that all started to change after a seemingly routine procedure, getting his wisdom teeth removed in college. That's when he was prescribed Oxycontin for pain. Which is, was pretty routine. pretty routine. and all they really need after wisdom teeth, especially kids whose brains are still developing, is ibuprofen and Advil. Now, I, actually have a an oral surgeon who stopped doing prescriptions for opioids after Emily's death after they heard her story. And my kids went through surgery with this oral surgeon. But then they started prescribing a small amount of opioids again because they were getting so many calls in the middle of the night for prescriptions. And I just think it's really not necessary. it's not, and I feel guilty about that too, because that introduction. What you didn't know. I didn't know, but that's what made him realize, oh, this is great. I don't feel pain anymore in my head or my mouth or whatever. Scott says, after Ian's prescription ran out, he started buying Oxycontin on the streets. And when that became harder to find after doctors began cutting back on opioid prescriptions. Ian, like so many others at the time, turned to something cheaper and more available. Heroin. Second year Northeastern. The college one night he calls us on Sunday night. That's usually when we would have have our conversation. he's intoxicated. my experience being around heroin addicts, you know, working in Manhattan and the music business, I knew exactly what it sounded like over the phone. your mind went directly to heroin. My, You're talking to your college kid, and your mind goes directly to heroin. it sure did. It's a certain sound in the voice when you're high on heroin. So I told Joan, she goes, oh, I think you're overreacting. You know, obviously I, I was right, but I. about three weeks later, he called up. He was having a breakdown, might have been having withdrawals. So we rushed him home and we sent him to a rehab down in Florida. You know, I didn't know how severe his problem had gotten. So he's in, you know, he goes to the rehab now. He's looking good. I think it was 30 days, which is a joke, Right, because it takes the brain so much longer to heal. Unfortunately, insurance companies dictate, especially how long someone can stay in and you know, they have these programs, these 30 day programs, and you're supposed to get out and be all better, , but we know it takes a lot longer than that. be shut down because they're just in it for the money. I've seen too much of it Scott says the 30 day program just wasn't enough for Ian. He relapsed not long after determined to try again. Ian checked into another treatment facility this time in Prescott, Arizona. This time, we say, you gotta do 90 days. And he fought, but he finally accepted it and he did quite well. Soon as he got home, I said, Ian, you can't live here anymore. You know too many people here. So you're gonna go out to San Francisco. And you're gonna live out there and my sister is there so you can go see her and your cousins whenever you want. And so he did, and he got himself a job at a law firm as a clerk.'cause Joan, my wife, is a lawyer, so he knew a lot about it. And, uh, he was doing great. And he was living in a halfway house with some other people, really great people. Ian did okay for about a year deciding to attend the University of San Francisco, but then Scott says he noticed that his son's determination, drive and demeanor began to change. He had found the Tenderloin district in San Francisco. Well, you can buy any drug you want and you start using it again. And we had him on Vivitrol which reduces the cravings for opioids drinking, whatever. But he figured out how to get beyond that. He figured out he'd have to be clean for three weeks and then he figured out he could use again. smart. These addicts are very smart. I'm sure you know this. They have an incredible desire to beat the system. Well, the brain is focused on getting what the brain thinks it needs to survive, which is the drugs, right? When, so when the drugs take a hold of the brain. We know this is a. Disease of the brain. And because , these substances take over and it becomes the only important thing everything else falls by the wayside. yeah That was certainly the case for Ian in just a few short months. He went from being passionate about school and excited about work to barely keeping his head above water and wanting to come back home. And I'm like, well, he already found a place to score out there, so there's no safe haven, obviously. so I flew out and he picked me up at the airport and we drove home to New York and he was high in the car. I don't know what he was taking at that time, I would be driving and I'm looking over and he's nodding out, I would free, I would explode.'cause one thing that makes me really angry is watching somebody nod out. I saw my daughter do that in church of all places, and I was just like, what? What is happening? I didn't know. I didn't know as much as you know or knew at the time. I didn't know. yeah. Don't like that. It, it just, we got home. He moved in with his friend. He was dipping and dabbing with different things. I think Oxycontin was the thing then. that's when Ian entered rehab for a third time, this time in Brooklyn, New York. After completing the program, he was determined to live on his own in an apartment nearby. Scott had serious reservations, but Ian was 26. He knew there was only so much he could do. He died about a month later in that little apartment. He was out with friends the previous night. He was high and they were not happy about that, and he left around 1:00 AM. A guy gave him a ride. He was the last person to see Ian alive. Just a couple of hours later, Ian used heroin that was laced with fentanyl and it took his life. Scott is certain his son had no idea the drug was tainted, even though he had warned him about the dangers of the powerful synthetic opioid. And I told him, I said, Ian, do you know what's going on out there? He goes, oh, my dealer would never do that to me. and this is 2020 2020? I was in Florida. Joan was gonna come down later. I was trying to text him and he wasn't answering and he wasn't answering Joan's call. So she went with a friend of ours over to Brooklyn. police came, broke down the door and he was deceased. Scott, I'm so sorry. And this is such a heartbreaking story for you and your wife to lose your oldest son to murder, and then your youngest son to Fentanyl poisoning a form of murder. right. I mean, I bet you thought after Chris died, like I could never go through this again. Yeah. I told him, I said, Ian, if you die, I said, that's pretty much the end of me. Right. That's how I would feel as a parent. Like if I lost another child. I can't go through that again. I told him that. I would say, Angela, that how I've survived is I am numb. I don't feel anymore. I have no feelings. If my happiness used to be on a scale of, you know, one to 10, it probably used to be close to 10'cause I was a pretty happy guy. now, even when I'm in a good mood, it's probably two. So there's no more real happiness, The joy has been robbed in your life. no more joy, I'm so sorry. and even sadness. People come to me and say, oh, my, my mother died. Well, like, yeah, doesn't really affect me. Yeah, that's interesting. Why do you think that is because I'm dulled down. I've got a protective shell over me that keeps me. Away from any bad news. You've experienced too much pain, so therefore you can't allow yourself to feel the pain again, which also limits you from feeling the joy again. Right. Yep. I'm so sorry. There's been a few times where the pain has bubbled to the surface and I didn't, and I didn't like it, so I stuffed it back down again. Yeah, that's the problem with grief is that you have to feel it all. And I can talk about their deaths, I wouldn't be on this Right. I mean, you contacted me and I was just floored by your story and I thought, yeah, I've gotta talk to this guy. Talking about it gives me relief and it also keeps their names active Right. that's why I talk about Emily, you know, because I don't want her to be forgotten. I think we all as parents feel that way. Have you, Have you sought out any grief counseling, any help? Yeah. I have, my favorite thing group meetings, but when the pandemic came, all groups Hmm. shut down and then people or realize, oh, this is a, this is better than going to live therapy. I can stay right in my house by myself and have all these people, Yeah, it's not the same., We have an in-person support group meeting for parents at Emily's Hope, and it varies. We have anywhere from I, to 12 people at one time that come depending on the month. And it does make a big difference to be in person it with other people. even if you aren't physically hugging, it still makes a difference. Through all the heartbreak, addiction loss, and the unimaginable pain of losing two children, Scott and his wife have stayed together. He says their love and support for one another is what has helped him survive the darkest moments. The funny or not so funny thing about two spouses who are parents of deceased, you never know who's gonna be grieving today. right. You know, it might be my day to be the happy guy, but it's your day to be a wreck, and then tomorrow will be my turn. So there's a lot of times where you're not speaking and it, it's just, it's a constant thing. And we're musicians, that's our therapy. Oh We go out and we play and it makes us feel better. And we like bringing joy to other people. it is a tough struggle for a parent, and that's, it's no accident that so many, parents get divorced after these horrible things. yeah. or horrible things happen to the parents. I have known parents who've completed suicide or drank themselves to death. I mean, I talk about this often on the podcast that just taking care of yourself Some people don't want to anymore, right? No, I can't condemn anybody who No. that thing. No. I'm not a hypocrite. I know what goes on. but I will say that physical activity is a big thing for me. I do my five mile walk every day. That's great. snow, or whatever. I'm on board with that. I exercise for my brain. That's why I do it. I have my daily workout and I walk as well every day if I can. Meditation, yes. big thing, I go to meditation. Podcasts or meditation, music, or nature sounds. And I get into my deep meditation Now. I went to Peru and did Ayahuasca. Oh, I've heard a lot about that. Tell me, what was your experience? Ayahuasca is a South American psychedelic tea brewed and used by indigenous cultures in the Amazon for healing and spiritual practices. So I go to this temple in the middle of nowhere, no electricity. Very cool place. It's all natural place. I've got a shaman assigned to me, a woman who doesn't speak a lick of English. She's, Inca and I have a translator so I talk to the translator. I tell her what's happening in my life she tells the shaman and I can watch her face. And she's like, whoa, this is sad. we go into this temple at night. I'm in a sleeping bag. It's pretty darn cold out. I. And they come around with a shot glass and we drink our ayahuasca, probably 18 of us, and it's transformative. So when you say it was transformative, what do you mean? it's like rewinding and looking at pictures and things from your past. But I didn't go as deep as I should have I mean, I'm in the room and I'm hearing people. Crying, laughing, everything. Anyway, so I did that experience and it was kind of a healing journey. But anyway, I get home and about a year after that I made an appointment to do ketamine IV drip with a doctor Ketamine clinics are popping up everywhere. I mean, what did you think? Did I did my research. The IV drip, if you want to get outta your head and go someplace else to take a look from afar that the IV drip was it, it was frightening to me. I, I was never a guy to do acid and tripping in LSD. That wasn't me.'cause I like to be in control. Well, I'm laying on the table and the doctor looks at me after I told her my story. She goes, all right, have a good trip. And she just vaporized. And now. I'm seeing colors and I am, I thought that I was in my brain traveling around the cells and looking at all different things that I had done. it was powerful. It was scary, and I thought that I was never coming back. I thought that something had gone wrong and that I am never gonna be the person that I was. And toward the end of the journey, which is an hour by the way but it seems like a year I was resigned like, well, I guess that's it for me. You know, I enjoyed my life until I started seeing this light, which turned out to be the fluorescent light above my head, and I was starting to come too. And I will say that I was so grateful to be alive. I never felt so grateful to be alive. I am still here. Powerful. That is interesting because you mentioned you didn't really care whether you died or not after losing both your sons, which, which I can understand that feeling, but this made you feel grateful for your life. did. And did you continue with Ketamine therapy? I. Not in that strength, you know, , there's a lot of greed in this business. People are out to make a buck and I, after doing all my research, the average price was $800 to a Wow. of therapy, Scott didn't return for another Ketamine infusion, but he did try microdosing. He says it brought some short-term relief, but the benefits didn't last., I think nutshell, I want happiness. Do you think you can have happiness after losing two children or a child? I don't, I think you just have to heal with that scab on you, Right. and that's as good as it's gonna get. I, We are the walking wounded. That's what I always say. And you learn to live with it. You'll never be the same. No, and in some ways I always say this, I can be grateful not for the fact that my daughter is gone. I would never say that, but I can be grateful for the suffering and for the pain that I went through, because now I can understand yours. yeah. I think the suffering makes us more fully human. It I really do think that. Oh yeah. People can tell right away your compassion, why does this guy care about me? Because I've been through something horrible. Right. don't like pain, and I'm willing to give you some help if there's anything I can do. So while you'll never be the person you once were, there may be parts of you that are better. Yeah, I would agree. And more human. And more human. yeah. It's too bad it takes this it shouldn't. So many people are living on the surface of life, right? haven't been through these things, Now we're observers. We see it. and you go deeper. I think You go deeper and I, I'm tired of superficial relationships. I, I don't have time for them anymore. You know, I struggle with things like that because you just go so much deeper because you, you've been to the depths of despair. You know what that is and you know how inconsequential so many things people worry about truly are. We all share this common heartache, you know, we are individuals and you know, Yeah. the way it is. Yeah. Well, I so appreciate you sharing Chris and Ian's story with us and our listeners and, and your journey since then. And I, think the things you've tried our listeners will be really interesting 'cause we all hear about those things, right? And we're like, does that work? Should I try that? So it's interesting to learn from other people's experiences and I think we all have to do the work in our own ways. you certainly have done the work. Takes a lot of energy to do what you do. I'm a high energy person and I have a, a commitment. For me, this is my lifeline, right? doing this work is my lifeline. And I think we all have to find our own lifelines after loss. I, yeah. You've harnessed it and you've turned it into something good for you and good for the public. it's a great thing. I, oh, thank you. I'm so grateful that I have gotten to know you, Scott, and I, I just really appreciate you joining me today. Same here, Angela. Thanks so much for joining us for this episode of Grieving Out Loud. We'll be back next week with another powerful story, but you can always check out hundreds of other episodes on our website, Emily's Hope Charity. Until then, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Wonnenberg King and Kaylee Fitz.