Amy Neville: 0:07

Bridgette as I always call her, my bereave bestie. I'd do anything for her.

Angela Kennecke: 0:12

They call themselves bereaved besties, but it's a friendship born from heartbreak. Amy Neville and Bridgette Norring never imagined their lives would collide in this way until both of their teenage sons died after taking what they thought was a prescription pill they bought on Snapchat. Instead, it was a deadly dose of fentanyl.

Bridgette Norring: 0:35

During that first week of the COVID lockdown, his appointments for his, he had a cracked molar and he was going through some migraine pain. Those got canceled. And so he went onto Snapchat, was connected to a another teen in our town who is a known drug dealer, and he was advertising Percocet,

Angela Kennecke: 0:57

Now the two moms are learning how to live with the unthinkable. While fighting to make sure that no other family has to, they've taken their grief all the way to Washington and are pushing for new legislation, they're in the middle of a lawsuit against Snapchat's parent company.

Bridgette Norring: 1:14

It was really hard sitting in that first Snapchat meeting that we had in 2021 with their executives and to hear their executives say, well, you should have been monitoring your kids. And it's like,

Angela Kennecke: 1:26

They put it back on you.

Bridgette Norring: 1:27

But how do you monitor your children on an app where the text messages. Disappear. You, you can't, there's no way. Unless your kid saves 'em

Angela Kennecke: 1:35

Join me as I sit down for this powerful conversation with these moms who are fighting for change to make the digital world safer for your family. I am so happy to welcome Bridgette Norring and Amy Neville. Back to the podcast two mothers that I spoke with individually about the loss of their sons. Each of them purchased a pill on Snapchat that they didn't know had fentanyl in it and died. And each of them have joined me in this fight to save other people's children. So thank you so much for being here.

Amy Neville: 2:20

Thank you. for having us.

Bridgette Norring: 2:21

Yeah, thank you.

Angela Kennecke: 2:23

Let's catch up a minute. How are you guys doing?

Amy Neville: 2:26

It depends on the day. Um, it's weird to say that like, I'm doing well and I feel good. I'm a self-described, happy, sad person.

Angela Kennecke: 2:36

Yeah. No, I don't think that's weird at all. I, I always think that there's a balance between, grief and joy. Right. And if you're a resilient person, you can continue to live on after your child dies. It takes time, you know, to, to do that. But, you can still be happy and do things and, and I think the work that we're all doing has such great meaning and purpose. Right. And I'll, I'll let talk for a second too, but there's three of us. It's like, ah, go Bridget.

Bridgette Norring: 3:00

know, I mean, I'm obviously jet lagged,

Angela Kennecke: 3:03

yeah. Tell us why. Tell us why you're Jet Laed.

Bridgette Norring: 3:06

I flew in for the signing of the Halt Fentanyl Act bill, and witnessed President Trump. Put that into law. So I spent the majority of my day Wednesday morning into the afternoon, trying to get to DC on time, and then turned around, flew back home yesterday. and then my emotions are up and down right now because tomorrow is actually the fifth year since we held Devon's celebration of life because when Devin died, it was during COVID. So

Angela Kennecke: 3:34

Hmm.

Bridgette Norring: 3:34

get to do that whole when he initially died in April of 2020. So. My emotions are and down right now,

Angela Kennecke: 3:43

Yeah, those anniversary dates are tough. it's always hard, and sometimes the anticipation of it is harder than the actual date itself. For those who haven't heard our original podcast with Bridgette Norring, she shared the heartbreaking story of losing her son Devin to Fentanyl at just 19. Devin was bright, talented, an athlete, an honor student, and a musician.

Bridgette Norring: 4:06

Devin, he was into his skateboarding, his BMX thing. He would spend hours out front of our house trying to perfect those tricks on his bike and. I can't even count how many times he came in, banged up, bruised up, cut off from it, but he was just so into that perfect. It had to be perfect. He loved football. He loved being outdoors, just he loved making his music. Um, But in April of 2020, during that first week of the COVID lockdown, his appointments for his, he had a cracked molar and he was going through some migraine pain. Those got canceled. And so he went onto Snapchat, was connected to a another teen in our town who is a known drug dealer, and he was advertising Percocet, Devin and a friend met up with him and that pill was not a Percocet. And I killed Devin. The thing with Devin that really still bothers me is that that was here could have said something, could have done something, and instead chose to lock Devin's bedroom door and walk out the door. He

Angela Kennecke: 5:19

Hmm.

Bridgette Norring: 5:20

my youngest son at the time who was 14, Devin was sleeping and went on about life, and found Devin the next day and that's when we learned what Fentanyl was. And so. We drove in head first, like literally the next day.'cause it was just, this is in our community. don't want this for another parent.

Angela Kennecke: 5:43

But sadly, that nightmare continues to happen across the country. In fact, the same year Devin died, Amy also lost her son, Alexander. He was only 14.

Amy Neville: 5:56

He had just celebrated his birthday six weeks prior. Alex was just a beautiful, adventuresome, brilliant kiddo who, had this. experimental streak as a, as a human, like, whether it be exotic foods or skateboard tricks or whatever it was. He liked to experience things and I think unfortunately this drug dealer that found him on Snapchat, exploited that and, this is the aftermath.

Angela Kennecke: 6:22

I always say he and Emily had a lot in common that way. She was on her long board, she was a gymnast, you know, doing all these risky things and never afraid to try anything. And I think that is what actually led her down the path into drugs.'cause she wasn't, she wasn't scared.

Amy Neville: 6:35

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Angela Kennecke: 6:37

Right. And it's just so terrifying to think that dealers are targeting kids, young kids in this way.

Amy Neville: 6:43

them. Yeah,

Angela Kennecke: 6:43

And it's still happening. It's been five years since both Bridgette and Amy lost their sons. Since then, they've been involved in organizations legislation and even joined the lawsuit to try to prevent this from happening to other children. one thing I always tell audiences when I, when I share that story of Devin or Alexander is I always say they're at home. Right? They're at home and you think they're safe and they're in their rooms and not worried about 'em 'cause they're home but you're not safe anywhere when you have a social media platform that allows. Basically the dealing of drugs on it, whether that be Snapchat or I, I've talked to another mom whose daughter was targeted on Instagram. Right. So doesn't really matter what the social media platform is, but in your cases, it was Snapchat and are you both in the lawsuit that the group of parents have filed?

Amy Neville: 7:35

We are. And as you probably may or may not know is that we are actually going into discovery right now. They are working on which cases will be the bellwether cases. So the first couple of cases to go to trial, and we're waiting to hear, we should know by August 22nd who those are.

Angela Kennecke: 7:51

So in the last five years, has Snapchat in particular changed any of its policies or done anything to try to curb this?

Bridgette Norring: 8:01

They claim they have.

Angela Kennecke: 8:03

Do you know what they've done?

Amy Neville: 8:05

So they've implemented things like the parent center, which is supposed to. say work is how conversations work in real life. Like as a parent, you don't go eavesdrop on your child, so you can see who your kid's talking to, but not what they're talking about. but I would argue that I can eavesdrop on my child if they're in my own home. I mean, we're all parents. We, we've had probably had the situations where the kids are off doing whatever they're doing and you

Angela Kennecke: 8:30

Mm-hmm.

Amy Neville: 8:30

just to see how it's going and what's going on, or bring them the snack or drink and ask 'em if they need anything. While you're checking in on them, you're seeing what's going on and you're monitoring the situation, and so I don't think you, still really cannot do that on that platform.

Angela Kennecke: 8:44

Well, that's discouraging because even I was going through, you know, some of this with Emily in high school that I always say the trouble started in high school and I was monitoring her texts. I was monitoring everything because I'm the parent and I, it's my job to protect her. And if you can't do that on social media and, our kids are targeted by. Predators, whether they be drug dealers or sexual predators, it doesn't matter. It's really scary.

Amy Neville: 9:09

It is. And you know, we monitored Alex's social media. That was part of the deal of having social media is we got to

Angela Kennecke: 9:14

Sure.

Amy Neville: 9:15

we had all the passwords, everything. And at the time, you know, these companies were, you look for sexual predators and you look for bullies. They weren't telling us what to look for in terms of other harms that are out there. And I definitely think they have a responsibility in that. Especially to older parents like myself, like this is all new technology for us. We don't know what we don't know, and we really need their help navigating that landscape.

Bridgette Norring: 9:39

Well, Ray and I didn't have any idea of all the drug dealing on there whatsoever.'cause again, when we handed over our social media to our kids, it was the bullying and the sex predators. That's all we were ever informed that we're you should be watching out for. But even with the Snapchat and the monitoring of it. that didn't stop like my kids from going and creating a secondary account that we

Angela Kennecke: 10:03

had no idea

Bridgette Norring: 10:03

even existed. And, you know, it was really hard sitting in that first Snapchat meeting that we had in 2021 with their executives and to hear their executives say, well, you should have been monitoring your kids. And it's like,

Angela Kennecke: 10:18

They put it back on you.

Bridgette Norring: 10:19

But how do you monitor your children on an app where the text messages. Disappear. You, you can't, there's no way. Unless your kid saves 'em by chance. You know? And that's the whole lure with Snapchat is the

Angela Kennecke: 10:31

I.

Bridgette Norring: 10:32

messages. in fact, I would go as far as saying they made the platform even more dangerous when they updated their geo location settings. So

Amy Neville: 10:40

Oh

Bridgette Norring: 10:40

to pinpoint within the exact room of your home. I mean, how dangerous is that? And we know. From Devin's case that they were using the geolocation to go around and sell these pills.

Angela Kennecke: 10:52

for people that don't know, explain the geolocation feature.

Bridgette Norring: 10:56

Well, you can turn on the geolocation and it just basically will show you are at on, on the little map. Anybody can seek out your, kid. I mean, my daughter had it on not that long ago, and I was like, Hailey, turn that off. I can see that you're in your home on such and such blow. Like, you know, and for the drug dealers, that's their big thing. Like if they go to like a concert or something and they put in that, Hey, I'm in Minneapolis, and there's like a lot of activity there. These people can find these drug dealers and or they can find somebody looking. For.

Angela Kennecke: 11:35

Well, and it's not just the Snapchat app, another new app could pop up too. and we don't even know about it. Our kids know about it long before we do. so much can go on without parents' knowledge. And I think that it is a, scary world to raise kids in. And the, and the danger. And the worst that can happen happens. And it's happened. I mean, on this podcast, I've been doing this podcast for six and a half years, and I've talked to countless parents, and the story's the same, right? The kid takes a pill and dies, and most of the time it was obtained on social media. And social media companies make a lot of money, and this lawsuit that you are involved in has taken years. It's taking years. And the other thing that's taking years is the Cooper Davis Devin Norring Act, which is named in part after Devin. And I know Amy, you're also involved in this, but that act just like the Halt Fentanyl Act, it takes so long for anything to get done.

Amy Neville: 12:33

Has it ever, we've been working on social media bills and it's just, it's a rollercoaster.

Bridgette Norring: 12:38

Oh my gosh. Every time we think we're like gonna get there, it's like something happens

Angela Kennecke: 12:45

Amy says the earliest the Snapchat lawsuit could go to trial is 2026, but she believes Snap. The company behind the app is trying to delay it until the spring of 2027.

Amy Neville: 12:57

So, you know, we've got years to go.

Angela Kennecke: 12:59

Yeah. And the other thing is how long has the Cooper Davis Devin Norring Act been going on, and, and when did Devin's name get added to that?'cause I know originally it was just the Cooper Davis Act.

Bridgette Norring: 13:09

It is been a couple years. Libby and Randy Davis have been fighting for it for years. Devin's name was added last year, July of last year.

Angela Kennecke: 13:21

And Cooper was a boy out of Kansas, right?

Bridgette Norring: 13:24

Correct.

Angela Kennecke: 13:25

Yeah.

Bridgette Norring: 13:25

Cooper and three of his friends got two pills. They split it amongst the four of 'em. died from the half pill that he took. The other three survived. And so Randy and Libby Davis have been fighting for this bill since.

Angela Kennecke: 13:43

And then you sort of jumped at the chance to include Devin's name in it. Why is that?

Bridgette Norring: 13:49

Well, we got a call last June. From Congresswoman Angie Craig, and she said, you know, I was reading over this bill over the weekend and there was just so many parallels and similarities to Devin and I wanna add Devin's name to it. And I, I said, well, you know, it's not really, you know, necessary, but she's like, no, I, I wanna

Angela Kennecke: 14:11

Hmm.

Bridgette Norring: 14:11

name to it. And so it was like, okay, well the Davises are okay with it, 'cause I didn't wanna step on their toes at all. Because that's just not who we are. But they agreed to add Devin's name to it, and so you know, we're honored to be in that space with them on this.

Angela Kennecke: 14:28

Right. And what a nice tribute for Devin. And so many names could be added to it, right? Alexander's name could be added to it, but you, are involved, right? Amy?

Amy Neville: 14:36

Oh yeah. Trying to support any legislation that I can and that I believe in. And then of course, you know, Bridgette as I always call her, my bereave bestie. I'd do anything for her.

Angela Kennecke: 14:44

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's awesome that we do form friendships. It's so weird, but nobody can understand. When I say weird, what I mean, is you don't expect that, right? Because, when you meet another grieving parent, they know exactly what you've been through and how you feel. And there's a almost an instantaneous bond that's formed.

Amy Neville: 15:03

there is.

Bridgette Norring: 15:03

I love my family so much, but they have the understanding of what this loss is like. It, it's a completely different level of pain. So when you meet other families, it's like just instant, you know? You get connected, they understand it, able to support you a little bit better, I think.

Angela Kennecke: 15:26

Yeah. Yeah, you could just say one thing and you're like, I know, right? I mean, I, I get it. I've been there and I know I have those women, especially the moms right my life. And that's who I can always know I can talk to when those things come up. So it's great to have those friends and it's great to have the support for legislation like this. Now, I know it started. Going through Congress in 2023 and here we are in 20 25, 2 years later. But the same with the Halt Fentanyl Act, right? I mean there were temporary orders in place. So it, never really stopped, but it could have. And the Halt Fentanyl Act meant that dealers can't adjust the formula for fentanyl and then get away with distributing it'cause it's not exactly the same. Now, tell me the background on this act and what it would do.

Bridgette Norring: 16:12

So the Cooper, Davis and Devin Norring Act bill that would require these platforms to. Report to the Attorney general. any of the counterfeit pills that are on there methamphetamine, you know, things of that nature. They would have to be found by either somebody reporting it or their algorithms catch it. Or are people who monitor or do whatever. With the social media side. So then it's my understanding the attorney general would then turn that information over to, you know, DEA or local law enforcement so they can investigate. I know like in Devon's case, the two that were alleged in his case, they were just continuous for years after Devin died selling these pills on Snapchat.

Angela Kennecke: 17:00

did other people die from their dealing? Do you know?

Bridgette Norring: 17:03

Allegedly, yeah.

Angela Kennecke: 17:05

and did they ever get, prosecuted or convicted?

Bridgette Norring: 17:07

The one actually died a year later from allegedly his own supply, the other one from our efforts helping the Dakota County Drug Task Force that netted 19 individuals from. The Minneapolis Street gangs all the way down to the Sinaloa cartel. They had built a case where they were bringing these pills back up through teddy bears and other means from the Arizona border. so the other person alleged in Devon's case, he's serving five years right now in federal prison for distribution of fentanyl.

Angela Kennecke: 17:43

but not for death.

Bridgette Norring: 17:45

Hmm.

Angela Kennecke: 17:45

Yeah. Here at Emily's Hope, we've reported on the case Bridgette's talking about it was the largest fentanyl bust. In Minnesota's history. Several people were accused of hiding fentanyl pills inside stuffed animals and mailing them to addresses around the twin cities. If you wanna stay informed on the latest news about the opioid crisis and substance use disorder, visit our Emily's Hope website. You can also sign up for our weekly newsletter. We've added a link in the show notes to make it easy for you. So the social media companies basically right now, sort of turn a blind eye, are allowing drug dealing on their platforms, but they don't allow child pornography on their platforms, right? They have to do something about that.

Amy Neville: 18:31

Yeah. Well, 'cause , they're held accountable to that. There's nothing holding them accountable in these, these drug dealing cases. And Alexander's case, The Cooper, Davis Devin Norris Act might have helped because there was a, kid died in this drug dealer's apartment two weeks before Alex died. So. You know, there's evidence that this guy has killed and has killed, Even after Alex died. There's a kid that died two weeks after that,

Angela Kennecke: 18:50

Yeah.

Amy Neville: 18:50

if this information could have been accessible immediately, maybe we could have saved some lives.'cause there's at least four deaths that I can pinpoint to this drug dealer on my own. Just mom. And I'm not law enforcement, so am, I'm sure there's gotta be more.

Angela Kennecke: 19:05

Right, There's so many involved, in Emily's case, the two higher level dealers were involved in at least like. I dunno if they were charged in 10 deaths, but there were at least 10 deaths linked back to them and what they were doing. So it's incredible the devastation that these dealers leave behind and that they can use these tools so easily. it just makes logical sense that there should be some barrier to that, but there is some opposition to it and the opposition really is. Privacy. Right? I mean, that's one of the biggest things that these social media companies would have to turn into. Cops monitoring everyone's messaging. You don't hear that argument when it comes to child pornography.

Amy Neville: 19:45

you don't. Like, that's a no brainer for everybody. But when it comes to, well, I think a lot of it has to do with stigma, right? Bridgette and I, um, hopefully, I'm not speaking for you, Bridgette, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but when we go and do news or we are very public about things, we get messages from people like your kids fault for doing drugs in the first place. You

Angela Kennecke: 20:02

Mm-hmm.

Amy Neville: 20:03

That's why this happened. You know, so. One of the first barriers we have to overcome in all of this, whether it be the social media piece or the drug piece, is the stigma. so until we can really change hearts and minds, it's gonna remain that way. It's gonna be the victim's fault every time.

Angela Kennecke: 20:17

Right. I mean, you're a hundred percent correct. I've been talking about that for years. And even good kids will make a bad choice sometimes.

Amy Neville: 20:24

and know, we just didn't die for it when we were younger. kids don't have that luxury today.

Angela Kennecke: 20:31

Right.

Bridgette Norring: 20:32

and the thing with this bill is, is it does not require the companies to monitor all user activity just to report what is known or reasonably suspected in these instances of these drug dealers. I mean.

Angela Kennecke: 20:45

And how would they, how, how would they know? How do they find out? You know, that there's some dealing or they're talking about drugs in a conversation.

Bridgette Norring: 20:52

Well, we learned through that Snapchat meeting that there was the in-app reporting tool. They acted like we should have just known this from the start. And we did start reporting it through there. But what would happen is is SNAP would just take the accountant down

Angela Kennecke: 21:05

Oh.

Bridgette Norring: 21:06

and we even asked them in that meeting, if they report these to law enforcement They said no,

Angela Kennecke: 21:12

well, don't you and I if, drug dealings happening in our house have to report it to law enforcement?

Amy Neville: 21:18

one would think that stands.

Angela Kennecke: 21:23

Right.

Amy Neville: 21:23

It's a crazy world out here. Have you lost a loved one to overdose or fentanyl poisoning? I'd like to invite you to share their story on our new Emily's Hope memorial website called More Than Just a Number. They were our children, siblings, cousins, husbands, wives, aunts, uncles, and friends. So much more than just a number. You can submit a memorial today on more than just a number.org.

Angela Kennecke: 21:54

so on, on another hand, these social media platforms have a lot of money and a lot of power. So when something like this is making its way through Congress, you know, they're lobbying, they're working against it, even though you wonder why, what's their motivation to work against it?

Amy Neville: 22:11

it's money. I mean, 'cause if they start getting rid of these accounts, that's, users that they

Angela Kennecke: 22:16

Mm

Amy Neville: 22:16

that's advertising dollars. That's people they can't advertise to. Uh, Even meta said in a, court case that they don't have to remove, bot accounts because they still get revenue off of advertising to those

Angela Kennecke: 22:28

oh.

Amy Neville: 22:28

So it really is all about the bottom line.

Angela Kennecke: 22:32

Yeah, it seems like all of our kids died because of money, right? So like the dealers are trying to make money. Our kids died because of greed. And then the greed goes all the way up

Amy Neville: 22:43

going.

Angela Kennecke: 22:43

the chain. Yeah.

Bridgette Norring: 22:45

They spend a lot of money on their lobbyists, I have to question some these lobbyists too, like, do you have children? Like have no, like soul, , how do you defend this?

Amy Neville: 22:56

oh, I think there's a certain point where I remember meeting early on with attorneys and I asked this one attorney, I'm like, I can't imagine how these tech CEOs sleep at night. And he said, well, money makes for a very comfortable bed. Yeah.

Angela Kennecke: 23:08

Yeah.

Amy Neville: 23:09

like that was it. That was it right there. But I will say that bridge and I have been working on social media bills for the last few years also, and. You know, they're spending over$200,000 a day in lobbying. They have groups like Net Choice suing on their behalf when laws do pass on a local level. But I will tell you there, been these little wins that keep us going. Like there was an organization that was gonna name Snapchat as Humanitarian of the Year, and when we met with their CEO, got some experts in there and they revoked the award. That's a, you know, that's a little win in moving the mountain. Getting discovery in our lawsuit is a really big deal. Something that we didn't think was going to happen. And then of course, with the AI moratorium, you know, Blackburn and crew struck a deal and they were gonna leave it in The big beautiful Bill and parents and other grassroots efforts begged God after Marsha Blackburn asked her to change her stance, and she did. In fact, she proposed an amendment with Cantwell to remove it and they. Got it removed from the big, beautiful bill. So those little wins show us that our voice is being heard, right? We're getting somewhere as slow as it is, we are making some progress and we have to keep going on these things.

Angela Kennecke: 24:19

I think those are big wins and I, and I also think you guys are doing amazing work. And I go back to what Derek Maltz said from, you know, the former acting head of the DEA. He says, these parents should not have to be doing all this work. It shouldn't be the grieving parents, it should be the leaders and the politicians and the leaders of corporations. They should be doing the work to make it a safer place.'cause we're only doing it for other people's kids. We can't get our kids back. You can't get your kids back.

Bridgette Norring: 24:47

It's really interesting. You know, I was talking like with one of my Uber drivers on the way back to, you know, when everything was done with, the signing, the halt fentanyl act the other day, and he said it just hasn't touched 'em. you're being heard, but it hasn't touched them enough to inspire them to make the changes that you are demanding that they make. So if it were to actually touch some of 'em, maybe we'll.

Angela Kennecke: 25:11

yeah, and just because they've been lucky. I've always said since the beginning, a lot of this is just random and I, I do think that, you know, it could happen to anyone and some people are just lucky it hasn't happened to them.

Amy Neville: 25:22

lucky and. In my belief, I'm just gonna say, this is my opinion. Um, A lot of their portfolios are tied to these companies. investments and things are tied to these companies. So if these

Angela Kennecke: 25:33

Money. You're talking about money again? Yes.

Amy Neville: 25:35

down. Yep.

Angela Kennecke: 25:36

Still both Bridgette and Amy are optimistic about the Cooper Davis. Devin, no act. The bill was reintroduced this month in both the House and Senate after failing to reach a vote last year.

Bridgette Norring: 25:49

We had a really huge support in the senate, on the senate side for this bill. Senate is doing an amazing

Angela Kennecke: 25:56

I.

Bridgette Norring: 25:57

Like they're seeing the problem, they're understanding the problem, but it just, it feels like when it gets to the house side, that's when it just breaks down. And I think a lot of that has to do with, there are several leaders at the podium who are. by big tech who don't wanna bring these bills forward. I mean, we saw a cosa, the Kids Online Safety Act get completely just

Angela Kennecke: 26:22

Right.

Bridgette Norring: 26:23

thrown to the side like it was nothing. And like I said earlier, it's just so frustrating because these bills will save lives.

Angela Kennecke: 26:32

Right, and we're talking about real children's lives who have been lost

Amy Neville: 26:36

so you ask if we're hope, you know you know, being hopeful. if we're not hopeful, what do we have? Right? Once we're not hopeful anymore, I think that would take us to a really dark place. And so we, have to remain hopeful.

Angela Kennecke: 26:47

Yeah, well, you know, the name of our organization is Emily's Hope. And so that's, it's a really important word, to me. Want to learn more about Emily's Hope and how you can help make a difference. Just head to the show notes of this episode while you're there, we'd appreciate it if you take a moment to rate, review, and share this episode with your friends and family. The more people we reach, the more lives we can impact. So what keeps you going in this space?'cause I know it can be exhausting from personal experience. I know, like, talking about this all the time and trying to do this work and just digging in and day after day. So what keeps you going?

Bridgette Norring: 27:28

You know, we don't really see like what the work is doing entirely unless somebody comes back to us and says, Hey, you know, we heard your story. We had a conversation with our children. To me that's hopeful. That's like, okay, we are, we're doing what we're supposed to be doing. We're getting the information into the parents and children's hands when we go into schools and we talk to the kids and, you know, these kids don't know what it is. that gives us hope. But I'm so hopeful when we go into these bills, and I try to maintain it, but I think, you know, the thing is too, is we have some really great parents behind us and. The fight is real. And so it's like that fight kind of drives you because you know that behind it, another person who could potentially end up walking alongside of us on this journey, and that's not what we want. So we look at it like we're doing something good out of something that really impacted our family.

Amy Neville: 28:29

for me, what keeps me going, course, is being able to shed some light on something people don't know about. But, you know, when I go to into schools, I give everybody my personal information, which I don't know if that's good or bad yet. So far it's been good. And. I always get some kind of text from a kiddo afterwards, whether it be my friends using pills and I'm scared. What do we do? Asking me for Naloxone because of most of the time they're asking me for Naloxone because of their parents' drug use,

Angela Kennecke: 28:54

Right.

Amy Neville: 28:55

mind the first time it happened. And then I realized it was a

Angela Kennecke: 28:57

Hmm.

Amy Neville: 28:58

And the

Angela Kennecke: 28:58

Mm-hmm.

Amy Neville: 28:58

happens often is a suicide ideation. And so I'm able to get these kids connected to resources. I've even gone as far as going back to a school to help a kid advocate for themself 'cause they were scared. I don't know what it is. I

Angela Kennecke: 29:09

Yeah,

Amy Neville: 29:10

but they'll reach out and they'll ask for help, and so we're able to do that for them.

Angela Kennecke: 29:14

I always say if we just touch one person's life in, in a school or any setting really um, if just one life is saved out of all of this work, out of years of work, if just one life because of the ripple effect, you know, of that one loss and, the collateral damage you know, I think that then it's worth it.

Amy Neville: 29:32

Yeah, it is. But you know, Angela, you could put 30,000 kids in front of me and be like, look at all the lives you saved. Or you can have your kid back. I would take my kid every time.

Angela Kennecke: 29:41

Yeah, of course, of course, of course we all would, right? We all would. But this is, this is what we can make out of, you know, a horrible tragedy. That is good. That is good because you can't get your kid back.

Bridgette Norring: 29:56

I always say I wanna, you know, if we say one kid. Amazing. But I'm so greedy. I wanna save them all.

Angela Kennecke: 30:04

I started a few years before you, and when I, I would hear somebody died, I was like, what? Didn't they hear me? You know, I feel like I'm shouting from the rooftops, but then I realized that this is going to continue even no matter how loudly I speak or what my platform is, you know?

Bridgette Norring: 30:19

know. Amy and I, we always say, you know, where's the end? Do you think we'll

Angela Kennecke: 30:24

Yeah.

Bridgette Norring: 30:24

an end? And it's like, well, I hope and pray we do see an end to it, until then, we'll probably be doing this for a really long time.

Angela Kennecke: 30:33

I think so. But I think there is an end, and here's why I always liken it to the AIDS crisis and the angry moms who stepped forward and made the AIDS quilts and marched in Washington and we're doing the same thing about these fentanyl deaths and now aids well is no longer a death sentence. So you know, I think that there, there was an end basically. It's not maybe an ideal end, but I think that at least we'll see a, a major turnaround at some point.

Bridgette Norring: 30:58

Minnesota, we're seeing a decline. And, deaths. And I mean, I can attribute that to, you know, the education and awareness finally getting out there. Ease of access to Naloxone is out there. I mean, we've got that on in our libraries, in our government centers, everywhere and anywhere. So I, you know, I think we're on the right.

Amy Neville: 31:19

And say, when Bridgette, while you guys are seeing a decline, you know, we had that huge decline from January, 2024 to January, 2025 of about 25% of drug related deaths. They went down 25%, in the last few months, they're starting to creep back up.

Angela Kennecke: 31:34

For the first time in more than a year, drug overdose deaths are on the rise, according to the latest data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. As of January, overdose deaths over the previous 12 months increased by about 1400.

Amy Neville: 31:52

I don't know if we got comfortable thinking, people thinking, oh, this isn't a problem'cause drug deaths have gone down. We got used to a new norm, or, or what it is. It's scary. And it's scary that drug prevention education funds are on the chopping block right now.

Angela Kennecke: 32:05

Really scary.

Amy Neville: 32:07

works. Why would we try to take that away?

Bridgette Norring: 32:10

especially when that's something that he ran on, was the fentanyl crisis. Like why would you take that away?

Angela Kennecke: 32:16

Yeah, I just, questioned the um, deputy secretary for SAMHSA about that on this podcast, and he said, well, we're only getting rid of duplicate programs. I wanna believe that. But I'm afraid of that too because we work in the prevention space as well. And also we have to have treatment. We know people suffering from substance use disorder. Have to have treatment. So I always say, yeah, these legal things like, like the halt Fentanyl Act, like the Cooper Davis Devin Norring Act, those are all important and those are all a piece of it. But if we don't focus on prevention and treatment, we're gonna lose this battle.

Amy Neville: 32:51

Oh,

Bridgette Norring: 32:51

Right.

Amy Neville: 32:52

We're with you. Hundred percent with you on that.

Angela Kennecke: 32:55

All right. We might have to go do some more marching in Washington, so maybe we'll have to go do that.

Amy Neville: 33:01

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Angela Kennecke: 33:33

Anything else that you think would help end this crisis or any particular thing you're working on next?

Bridgette Norring: 33:41

We're staying in our community events. We've got our fifth. and Fentanyl poisoning Awareness Day event coming up next month. We're working with the DEA for bed ribbon week in October.

Amy Neville: 33:52

Mm-hmm.

Bridgette Norring: 33:52

I mean, we're just staying as visible and relevant in the community as we can.

Amy Neville: 33:58

We just have to keep doing that and maybe bringing more people into the fold to help us do that work that maybe are not impacted families that can help us spread the word. When I do parent nights, I always tell them like, okay, you guys are here now your job is to go tell 10 people. Like the seeds of educating your

Angela Kennecke: 34:13

Right.

Amy Neville: 34:14

so that. Help me help your community.

Angela Kennecke: 34:16

Yeah. I love that. Well,

Bridgette Norring: 34:17

I think too, I think, you know, in Minnesota we just passed the social

Angela Kennecke: 34:22

I.

Bridgette Norring: 34:22

label Bill, making us the first in the state to do that. That's something myself and suicide awareness, voices of Education worked hard on. so super proud to get that across the line, but I honestly feel like with these bills. tech. I think they're scared. Like, I think they're a little scared because they've never had to come up against a, a group as outspoken and strong as our families have been. it's, we're not going away.

Angela Kennecke: 34:51

Plus, what are the optics of that? Who's advising them to oppose this anyway? Because what are the optics of it? You're coming up against parents who've lost children, you know?

Bridgette Norring: 34:59

know, Angela, when I, when I testified in February with Jaime Porter on behalf of the Halt Fentanyl Act. I was told before the hearing that Evan Spiegel on Snapchat actually support the Cooper Davis Devin Norring bill, so I made a note to mention it in my testimony. If they're in such big support of these bills, why are they purposely going behind with their lobbyists to kill the bills,

Angela Kennecke: 35:26

Right.

Bridgette Norring: 35:27

pass'em so we can save lives?

Amy Neville: 35:29

They're being advised by, you know, their, their stock. Really right? Because if they lose their stock, then what do they have some of my favorite moments are when we have lobbied in front of Snap or gone public with something and you see their stock dip that day. There's a little bit of personal satisfaction in that.

Angela Kennecke: 35:45

Make a little bit of a, make it hurt just a little bit in the pocketbook. Well I know I, I see you at DEA events. I see you at prevention events, Amy, and I look forward to seeing you guys in person again soon. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and for talking about this important issue, what's happening right now, especially with the Cooper Davis, Devon. Norring act and we'll continue to follow it. Uh, because of my journalism background, I can't help. But we run new stories on our website and for our listeners out there, check it out because we always have the most updated news on all of these issues involving substance use, addiction legislation, all of these things. So we'll continue to follow it and keep people updated too, but really appreciate you drawing attention to it and hopefully if you support it, please call your Congress person because you can do something. Our listeners can do something to help. Right.

Amy Neville: 36:39

Absolutely. And that's writing to their Congress people. it's sharing the work that we all do to help educate their communities and people that they know. That's, how people can help. That's easy, easy first steps.

Angela Kennecke: 36:51

Yeah. So contact your congressperson, tell 'em to support this act and let people know , do a little research too, and let people know about what's happening and, and talk to your kids. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining me.

Bridgette Norring: 37:03

Thank you for having us, Angela.

Angela Kennecke: 37:05

And thank you for taking the time to learn about this incredibly important topic. Join us again next week for another powerful conversation this time with Michael Land who lost not one, but both of his children.

Mike Land: 37:20

I'm watching the pharmacist and it was that scene where he found out his son was murdered. And I looked at my best friend and I said, I couldn't imagine if I lost Preston. I've already lost one son. As soon as I said that, my phone rang. And it was Preston's mom. And she said, Preston's gone. And I said, well gone where? She said He's dead.

Angela Kennecke: 37:42

Hear how Michael found resilience after facing the unthinkable? Not once but twice. He'll share the lessons he wishes he'd known earlier and how he's now using a powerful and unique approach to raise awareness and help save lives. That's coming up next on Grieving Out Loud. Thank you so much for joining us. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Wonnenberg King and Marley Miller.