Angela Kennecke: 0:07

The bond between siblings is special. They're like built in best friends. They're for the good, the bad, and everything in between. But when someone loses a brother or sister, that kinda grief can be overlooked. Many people focus on the parents and sometimes forget that siblings are grieving too.

Will Rops: 0:27

And honestly, I think I would push back a little bit on the Grieving when I was younger because at the time I just didn't realize, that I was losing a relationship there, you know?

Angela Kennecke: 0:38

On this episode of Grieving Out Loud, we continue our series on sibling loss by sitting down with Will Rops. Rops not only lost his oldest brother to Fentanyl poisoning, but he grew up watching his brother deal with a difficult battle against substance use disorder.

Will Rops: 0:55

I think sometimes people think that there's not an added difficulty to deal with an overdose death because they blame the addict for dying, but it's. It's harder. It is. It's harder than, say, a health related death in a family

Angela Kennecke: 1:13

I am your host, Angela Kennecke today we're diving into part two of our series on sibling loss. If you missed part one, we've added a link to it in the show notes. The first episode was really personal for me. I'm so proud of my kids. I sat down with Emily's brother and sister to talk about how they coped with her loss. I

Adam: 1:35

think the first couple of years it was a lot more of frustration and was just me being kind of mad at whether it be the world or like God or people involved with like in Emily's life Who helped contribute to her addiction? And also the grief was lot more occurrence. would happen like at least like once a week, I would think about it and kind of fall into that like emotional trap. but now, I think pretty much all of the frustration is gone and the confusion is kind of gone. I, fully understand now kind of what happened. but for me, it's now just trying to make her proud and just trying to live on her legacy and, and just be the best man I can be.

Angela Kennecke: 2:15

Again, you can find the link to that episode in the show notes. But now let's turn to today's conversation. It's a powerful, enlightening and emotional one. You won't wanna miss Well, will welcome to the podcast Grieving Out Loud. It is a pleasure to meet you. I know your mom and I think so highly of her, and I'm so sorry about the loss that your family experienced.

Will Rops: 2:45

Thank you. I appreciate it. It's, it's an honor to be here. I'm excited.

Angela Kennecke: 2:49

Yeah, so Will, let's talk a little bit about the loss of your brother, Justin. Can you tell me a little bit more about Justin and your relationship as a sibling with him and kind of what was going on with him and your family at the time?

Will Rops: 3:06

Yeah. So we grew up in a small town in southwestern Minnesota. Pipestone is about 4,000 people. Small enough. We don't even have a Walmart. So, I think that that's pretty unique to our situation. Justin was a star athlete in high school. He was really, really good at math. And just overall a very kind and compassionate individual. he was really, really good in football. That was kind of his thing. But he also did baseball and basketball as well in high school.

Angela Kennecke: 3:39

the high school gym in Pipestone. Still proudly displays Justin's remarkable records, both for pitching in baseball and receiving in football. But behind those achievements, Justin was beginning to struggle with substance use disorder in high school.

Will Rops: 3:55

there was good moments, you know, it was very off and on. You know, there'd be times where he wouldn't use any drugs for months and then there'd be times where it was really bad for weeks

Angela Kennecke: 4:04

Yeah. tell me Will, , what's your difference in age?

Will Rops: 4:08

Yeah, about six years. So Justin is a pretty big amount older than me.

Angela Kennecke: 4:13

Yeah. And so you're just a little kid really when he's dealing with these substance use issues. And a lot of times, like with my daughter, it started in high school and with a lot of kids it does. You know, before the brain is fully developed, but it's so so hard. I would imagine if you were in elementary school and then middle school, that it was really hard for you to wrap your head around what was going on.

Will Rops: 4:34

Yes, it was. I oftentimes felt a little bit out of touch with what was going on with Justin and I. I've talked about this a little bit with my mom too, but it was probably for the best at the time, you know, so I could focus on myself, but that's been something that I've had to think about and work through as Justin died, not fully understanding and being in the loop about his addiction, what was going on with him.

Angela Kennecke: 5:04

Well, I know my younger kids could be pretty angry with their older sister for the disruption that she was causing in the home and the pain that she was causing me. And so that, that was really hard for them to witness. And I imagine you saw some things or hurt some things, or your parents probably tried to protect you, those kinds of things. But when you live in the house, you know what's going, I mean, you know, something isn't right. Yep,

Will Rops: 5:29

yeah, there was some anger for sure, I think I found myself sometimes blaming him for stuff that wasn't really fair in hindsight, know? But being younger, I just, I didn't know,

Angela Kennecke: 5:40

Right. Well, I'm sure you understand addiction now, I'm sure you understand what substances do to the brain now, but when you were, you know, six years younger than him, and, I'm sure you didn't then and it probably was, sometimes erratic and difficult to understand,

Will Rops: 5:55

it was. Yep. absolutely.

Angela Kennecke: 5:58

and how did it affect your relationship with your brother?

Will Rops: 6:01

That is a great question. That's another thing that I've really struggled with too after Justin's death is regret for not being closer with him and regret for not bonding with him more than I did. And I think part of that stems from his addiction issues in high school. You know, it was. It was hard for me, and I think I did, like you said, hold a lot of anger towards him for the ways he treated my mom and how it affected our family and how it impacted me too. And I held onto that for a long, long time. I.

Angela Kennecke: 6:37

Well, my kids felt exactly the same way, I just don't think there's another way for a younger sibling to feel right. After the sibling, the older brother or sister dies. then you end up with some guilt even, but you shouldn't because you were just a little kid,

Will Rops: 6:52

Yeah.

Angela Kennecke: 6:52

know, and, and you couldn't understand it. And

Will Rops: 6:54

And

Angela Kennecke: 6:55

I'm sure you loved your brother, but kind of behavior, it drives younger siblings away, I think. And that's sad. It's just sad. It's just a sad situation. Nobody's fault.

Will Rops: 7:06

mm-hmm. Yeah, that's, that's very true.

Angela Kennecke: 7:12

On top of the pain of watching his brother struggle with substance use disorder and feeling like their relationship wasn't as close as he wished will was then faced with an even heavier heartbreak in November of 2022. Justin died from fentanyl poisoning at just 25 years old. Will was only 19 So you know you grieve at that age. Do you grieve for what was lost and now you grieve as you mature too?

Will Rops: 7:38

Yeah, It never goes away. And honestly, I think I would push back a little bit on the Grieving when I was younger because at the time I just didn't realize, that I was losing a relationship there, you know?

Angela Kennecke: 7:52

Sure. And now I think this is also interesting with siblings, did you go the opposite way of your brother? Were you the good kid who never got into trouble? I mean, my kids kind of did some of that, you know, that they were not gonna do what their older sister did, which I, I guess was a good thing. You know, were you that kid?

Will Rops: 8:10

I was my brother too was we had some issues with him too. He had some behavioral issues when he was younger too. My middle brother.

Angela Kennecke: 8:18

So there's a brother in between you and Justin?

Will Rops: 8:20

Yes.

Angela Kennecke: 8:21

Yeah. Okay.

Will Rops: 8:22

And so we had some behavioral issues too with him when I was growing up and that was just another reason besides Justin too, for me to just kind of be the golden child on the good kid because I didn't wanna make any problems. You know? I always felt like my parents were dealing with enough with those two. And so I was just kind of the one who was quiet and sat back and I didn't always give an opinion maybe when I should have, because I didn't want to start something.

Angela Kennecke: 8:48

And that's a lot of pressure too, right? So that's a lot. You put a lot of pressure on yourself to be the one that never caused any problems, and it cause any more problems, right?

Will Rops: 8:57

it is.

Angela Kennecke: 8:58

Yeah.

Will Rops: 8:58

I still hold some of that, I don't know if trauma is the right word. Maybe trauma is the right word, that I just, I have a deep fear of disappointing my parents, you know? and that stems from some of that stuff that I dealt with growing up.

Angela Kennecke: 9:15

Yeah, and I don't think most people, unless they hear from siblings, like, My kids are like you. They don't understand. Sort of the ripple effect of just one person in the family suffering from substance use disorder, one person dying in this very traumatic and horrible way, right? That shouldn't have happened. They don't understand how it has so much impact in a ripple effect among siblings and other family members and friends and I just don't think people think about that.

Will Rops: 9:44

No, I a hundred percent agree. I don't think they do. I think sometimes people think that it, that there's not an added difficulty to deal with an overdose death because they blame the addict for dying, but it's. It's harder. It is. It's harder than, say, a health related death in a family

Angela Kennecke: 10:05

Right, and the stigma and the shame. Did you ever, I mean, you talked about living in this small community. Did you ever feel. Stigmatized or ashamed, or did you not wanna talk? You know, you heard people maybe saying something about your brother or whatever it is, especially after his death. Did you ever feel that?

Will Rops: 10:22

yeah, especially initially there was a lot of rumors going around that Justin had committed suicide

Angela Kennecke: 10:28

Mm-hmm.

Will Rops: 10:28

was intentional, but it wasn't, and I felt a lot of that early on. And what I kind of ended up thinking about that is if they don't know the details of the situation and they don't know my brother than who really cares, you know, at the end of the day, they didn't know him, they didn't love him, he didn't mean anything to them, so. if they want to think that's the way he died, they can go ahead and think that it, it truly doesn't have an impact it shouldn't have an impact.

Angela Kennecke: 10:58

Right. That's a very mature way to look at it, I think. But it maybe took a little while to get there.

Will Rops: 11:03

Yes.

Angela Kennecke: 11:05

and you're not shying away from talking about it, which I really appreciate you talking to me. why do you think that is? Why do you think you are willing to talk about it? Not everybody is, especially younger people. You know, you said you're only 21 and so why are you willing to talk about it?

Will Rops: 11:20

Gosh, that's a good question. I, I'm honestly not sure. I would say I owe that to my parents. They've always been very open and Strong communicators. They're both educators too. So yeah, I grew up in a family where communication was easier and it was not feared at all or avoided.

Angela Kennecke: 11:40

Yeah. Well that's great and I'm, so proud of you and I'm glad you are talking about it because I think the more we talk about it, the more we reduce stigma and help people understand addiction substance use disorder as a disease of the brain.

Will Rops: 11:54

Mm-hmm.

Angela Kennecke: 11:54

also that our loved ones didn't choose to die in this way. They had an issue. Of substance use disorder, which they had little control over their use, but they certainly didn't intend to die from fentanyl.

Will Rops: 12:13

didn't. Yep. that's so true. As one of the nation's strongest financial organizations, first Premier Bank and Premier Bank Card have the strength to do good. We support nearly 700 organizations and nonprofits. Our employees give more than 30,000 volunteer hours annually, and we are continually seeking ways to make South Dakota an even better place to live. It's the premier way, first Premier Bank and Premier Bank card.

Angela Kennecke: 12:47

Will has not only chosen to speak publicly about his brother's death to bring awareness to substance use disorder and the dangers of fentanyl, but he's also taking action, working with lawmakers to make sure others don't suffer a similar loss.. in the student senate at Minnesota State University Moorhead I was kind of inspired because I was in a position to be able to meet with state legislators and be involved in politics. And I was inspired by Justin's death to want to do something. It actually took, it wasn't initially after Justin's death. It took me quite a while to kind of just even process what was going on. But then. I think it was three or four months later. Another young man in Pipestone community, Cody Anger passed away from fentanyl poisoning. And that was kind of my moment of realization and I, Pardon my French, but it was an oh shit moment for me, really. And I don't know how else to really describe that besides that way, but like I said, Pipestone is a very small community. We don't have a Walmart and two young people with so much potential to do good things in the world passed away within that. Amount of time, like not even in a half year. And that was my moment where I'm like, I need to do something because this is not a problem. Just in bigger cities, this is not a problem. That's exclusive to people that make questionable choices. This is a universal problem that this country's facing and I wanted to do something about it. As a student senator at his university will took part in a higher education lobby day at the Minnesota State Capitol. He also scheduled time to meet with his Pipestone area state senators.

Will Rops: 14:45

Before I met with them, I just looked up like what has the state of Minnesota done about Narcan and what have they done to solve the opioid overdose that this country's facing? And what they have done at that current moment was they had passed a bill to have. I think it's police officers carry it. Prisons have to have it, and then K through 12 schools. And notably, obviously I was in college at the time and working in student senate and higher education politics and they didn't have any requirements for universities. And that to me was a giant oversight. It still is to me a huge oversight. College aged kids are so vulnerable to opioid use.

Angela Kennecke: 15:36

Right. We know there are parties drinking parties, there are pills being passed around. lot of weed being smoked and we don't always know where that came from. And an illicit weed can be laced with fentanyl. We know it's happened. So yes, college kids haven't necessarily gotten the education needed. Maybe younger kids are starting to get more education now that we're, you know, so deep into this fentanyl opioid crisis, I Right. but college kids probably among the most vulnerable.

Will Rops: 16:07

Yes, a hundred percent. I agree. It's a time where you're experimenting and trying new things. It's a new environment that leaves college kids vulnerable

Angela Kennecke: 16:17

And the mental health of college students is not always the best either, which can lead to substance use. So yeah, all of these things combined. So you see this huge gap. And what did you decide to do?, our legislators before that though what I did try and do was talk to. The university Moorhead and I met with one of the people that works in public safety at Moorhead, and there was a ton of pushback Really. a ton. Like what? Tell me what was done.

Will Rops: 16:51

There's a lot of false, information

Angela Kennecke: 16:54

but so you, you were just saying, Hey, let's get this on campus, and they're like, no, no. So how did you want it on campus? Tell me a little bit about where you thought it should be.

Will Rops: 17:04

Yep. So I suggested in with public safety officers, public safety officers to carry it 'cause they didn't

Angela Kennecke: 17:10

Okay.

Will Rops: 17:11

And that got shot down pretty quickly

Angela Kennecke: 17:13

I was working with a local university in my community who public safety officers do carry it. However, I had some students at the university ask me to help them get it on campus so that residents assistants, RAs would have it, and so it would be by defibrillators in buildings, which I thought was a great idea. But the university squashed that right away. They said no. No, no way. It's enough that our public safety officers carry it. They can get anywhere on campus quickly. And I just thought that's probably not enough. And why not have it? It's just a safety tool. Just like a defibrillator. Yeah.

Will Rops: 17:47

have it is so true. That's exactly the question we should be asking ourselves. It's not gonna encourage people to use

Angela Kennecke: 17:55

No, opioids

Will Rops: 17:56

more. Certainly it's, it's like a condom, you know, away condoms is not gonna stop people from having sex.

Angela Kennecke: 18:02

Right,

Will Rops: 18:03

it's the same idea with Narcan.

Angela Kennecke: 18:05

right. It doesn't encourage you. In fact, most people who carry it are, it's usually somebody who's concerned about someone have a loved one or a friend, you know, they're worried about, and that's usually who's carrying it. But just having it available as a safety tool in public spaces is just, who can argue with that?

Will Rops: 18:22

Exactly. There's zero harm.

Angela Kennecke: 18:24

Although the university didn't support Will's proposal, state lawmakers welcomed it. They introduced a bill that would require all public universities in Minnesota to stock Naloxone in residential buildings In addition to meeting with legislators will also testified in support of the bill.

Will Rops: 18:42

Testifying was really good. It was super nerve wracking. When you picture testifying at a state capitol, it is quite literally exactly how you'd picture it. It's like the fancy wooden desks and like the microphone that sticks out of it and like the fancy leather chairs and all that. But the testifying went really well. It was, it was difficult for me to be vulnerable in that huge amount of people, but I practiced it and then you know, I was passionate about it, so I didn't really have a huge problem doing it.

Angela Kennecke: 19:12

Did they ask you about your brother? Did you talk about Justin

Will Rops: 19:15

Yes, I did.

Angela Kennecke: 19:16

and what did you say? What did you want them to know?

Will Rops: 19:20

I wanted them to know, I kind of talked about this a little bit earlier, but that this problem is not. to any certain class. It's not exclusive to specifically bad people. You know, there is such good people with really, really big hearts that struggle with addiction, and Justin was a prime example of that, and that was message that I wanted to communicate. You know, he worked in an alternative school, so kids that are really, really having a hard time, he worked as a paraprofessional helping those kids. and he just overall in general, his personality was full of compassion. He treated everybody with kindness. One of the least judging people I've ever known. I feel like I could probably tell him anything and he wouldn't care,

Angela Kennecke: 20:06

those sound like similar qualities to what Emily had, and so many of these kids who are susceptible to substance use disorder, it's almost as if they have such big hearts and are so kind, and caring and compassionate, have so much empathy. It's almost as if the world is too harsh. For them. I sometimes think, and I think that that can lead to the use of substances because it's difficult things that you and I may not be as impacted by really affect them.

Will Rops: 20:34

that's interesting.

Angela Kennecke: 20:35

yeah, I found that to be a, a common thread throughout so many people I've talked to. And so you told your story, obviously you did it well because the bill received support, correct.

Will Rops: 20:46

Yep. So currently support wise, things are looking really good. We've gotten bipartisan support. the authors and co-authors of the bills are bipartisan. Things are looking really good.

Angela Kennecke: 20:58

Yeah. Well, when you have bipartisan support in today's world, you know you're doing something right. Right.

Will Rops: 21:03

No kidding. Yep.

Angela Kennecke: 21:05

The bill is currently moving through legislative committees with will, paying an active role testifying via Zoom and submitting written testimony. I.

Will Rops: 21:15

both of the committees that I. on Zoom and in person with there was no pushback. Everybody supported it. No nays.

Angela Kennecke: 21:23

Awesome. That's awesome work.'cause I was just working on some legislation on Naloxone in our state to have it be easier. To distribute because there were some antiquated laws for when it was still a prescription and you had to jump through a lot of hoops in order to give it out. And so we had overwhelming support pass through committees unanimously. I think there were four votes against it in the house and it was a due pass in the Senate. So it's on its way to the governor's desk. And it just, it's common sense, right? It just makes sense. So when you have somebody spreading misinformation about Naloxone, it can't hurt you if, you don't need it. It's doesn't make you addicted to anything. It's actually is an opioid antagonist. So it stops the receptors in the body from. Getting the opioid effect it's just a, a no-brainer to anybody who knows anything about it. And I just really applaud you for putting yourself out there and being vulnerable and putting your story about your brother and I, I know it can be hard to talk about but doing that for the greater good because you're really not doing this for yourself.

Will Rops: 22:22

yourself. No. Yeah, I've always felt the need to like, want to contribute to the greater good and, reflected in the fact that I'm a teacher, I suppose, but yeah.

Angela Kennecke: 22:30

Well, that's fantastic. And you mentioned you're a teacher now, so you graduated from college and like your parents and even Justin, he worked in education too, right? So you're you're working with special ed kids in middle school and I think that's really awesome.

Will Rops: 22:45

Yeah, it's in my blood, you know. I do, I

Angela Kennecke: 22:48

Yeah.

Will Rops: 22:48

family history in education, so,

Angela Kennecke: 22:51

right. But especially to work with special ed students. I mean, it takes a, I think a, a really patient person to be able to do that. Are you ready to protect the next generation from the dangers of substance use? Emily's Hope has created a comprehensive K through 12 substance use prevention curriculum designed to educate, empower, and equip students with the tools they need to make healthy choices are age appropriate lessons, starting kindergarten and build through high school using science, real stories and interactive learning to help kids understand their bodies, brains, and risk of drug use. We're already reaching thousands of students across multiple states, and we're just getting started. Visit emily's hope edu.org to learn more and share our curriculum with your school administrators and counselors. At Emily's Hope, we believe prevention begins with education. Let's work together to keep our kids safe. Well, thank you for all you are doing and everything you're doing to try to save other people's lives. Does it help you with your grief? Has this effort, this whole process, everything you've gone through, has it helped.

Will Rops: 24:08

That is a great question. I would say absolutely unequivocally, it has helped me kind of deal with my grief and cope with it and manage it. Obviously it's never gonna go away. Grief is something that lasts forever, but it's definitely helped. That constantly pops up into my head is Justin would be very proud of the work I'm doing Yeah. um, sorry. And that, that makes me feel better.

Angela Kennecke: 24:37

Yeah, well, don't, don't be sorry. I think it's a beautiful sentiment and I, I know that Justin would be very proud of the work that you're doing in his name and Cody's name and in so many other people. Across the region and the state of Minnesota who've lost their lives to this. And it could have been avoided, you know,

Will Rops: 24:56

Yes.

Angela Kennecke: 24:56

um, It could have been avoided. Were it not for Fentanyl and were it not made perhaps for the lack of access to Naloxone. We just have to make this tool available to everybody.

Will Rops: 25:07

The fact that it's not already been implemented is a testament to how strong the stigma is surrounding opioids and Narcan even. It's, it's bad. It is bad. And just crazy to me how strong the stigma can be.

Angela Kennecke: 25:23

Right. I had an official ask me about Narcan parties, and I'm like, what are you talking about? Well, I heard that there's these parties where people are using and they have all this Narcan, and so then they can just use drugs because they have all these, this Narcan, and so it's promoting drug use. I'm like, I don't think that's what's going on. I mean if it has happened, I don't know, but I just think, yeah, that stigma is strong I always say we just wanna keep people alive until we can get them help. And nobody argues with that. You know, when I say that, oh no, we just rather have people die. They should just die, you know? No, no. Someone suffering from substance use disorder, it is a disease of the brain. And do you think now that you have a better understanding of what substance use disorder is? I. In what was going on in your brother's brain, does that give you a little bit of, of peace, that understanding?

Will Rops: 26:13

it does. Yeah.'cause I. at the time of his death and leading up to it, sure he was going through a really, really hard time mentally, you know, and, trying to fight those demons inside of him. And, it does help knowing that, you know, it's not, it's not like he just rolled over and gave into those drugs, you know? He was, he was trying to do

Angela Kennecke: 26:34

Good. and it's not about willpower, right? I mean, it's just like we're understanding so much more about addiction in the human brain. It's not about willpower, and he probably didn't get the right kind of treatment. He probably, I don't know if he'd been prescribed medically assisted treatment or not, but. people who don't get that are more likely to die. And so we're learning so much more about the brain and so much more than we were even a, few years ago when Justin died. I know it hasn't been that long. But I, I'm so proud of you Will, for all that you've done and putting yourself out there, putting your story out there to help others and to make real change. That's huge. And who knows how many lives will be saved. When this law is passed and we're gonna be positive that it's gonna be passed.

Will Rops: 27:17

Mm-hmm. Yep. And. With the help of Students United too, I, we did some research on campuses and how opioid use is happening in Minnesota State universities. And there has been two overdose deaths in Mankato, pretty recently, within the past couple years or so. it's needed now.

Angela Kennecke: 27:36

Right. And you say two and it doesn't sound, oh well, two overdose deaths. But those are two young people who we've lost on a college campus and you know how their families were impacted, how their siblings, how their friends, how the entire community, I mean, you just multiply that by so many people impacted by just even one death from this cause. And it's the number one killer of young people. And this has to end.

Will Rops: 28:01

it

Angela Kennecke: 28:01

And the only way we're gonna end it is by, decreasing stigma and decreasing demand.

Will Rops: 28:06

And I do, I do have enormous hope too. I think, think there's been so much movement and progress just since Justin's death, like you said, in the past three, four years, I've seen huge movements. There's a statistic that said that overdose death decreased by, I think 8% from 23 to 24

Angela Kennecke: 28:28

and maybe in the state of Minnesota and nationwide in 2024, they went down 24%. Although

Will Rops: 28:33

Wow.

Angela Kennecke: 28:34

the state I live in is one of five states where they went up. So it's not universal, but we are making some progress. And I say that the numbers actually went down in part because of easier access to Naloxone,

Will Rops: 28:48

a hundred percent. Yep.

Angela Kennecke: 28:50

Right. And then the next step we have to do after we get everybody, every state and everywhere saturated with Naloxone is we've gotta have better treatment options for people and easier access to treatment and all of these things because you can keep people alive, but then you've gotta get 'em the help, the correct help that they need.

Will Rops: 29:08

Mm-hmm. That's right.

Angela Kennecke: 29:09

Yeah.

Will Rops: 29:10

Yeah.

Angela Kennecke: 29:10

Yeah.

Will Rops: 29:11

that that's the next step sure.

Angela Kennecke: 29:13

Well I can't wait to see what you take on next 'cause I know there will be something after this. Right. Have you got the bug now to make more changes?

Will Rops: 29:19

I do, yeah, I do wanna make more changes. Who knows, maybe I'll get a little bit involved with education too and lobbying with that,

Angela Kennecke: 29:26

Yeah, I bet you will. I have no doubt. Well, thank you. Will, thank you for taking the time to talk to me and thank you for everything you've done in this work. It's, It's incredible.

Will Rops: 29:36

Thanks so much. And I wanna say thank you too for doing the work you're doing. We are part of the reason that things are getting better and I think they will continue to get better.

Angela Kennecke: 29:45

Yeah, it's, it's kind of sad in a way that it takes such grassroots movements and families doing so much and that that's where it has to come from. But that's the reality. And all gonna work together to make this world a safer, better place.

Will Rops: 29:59

That's right. Absolutely.

Angela Kennecke: 30:03

And you can join in on the mission too. Head over to Emily's Hope Charity for ways to get involved. We've posted a link in the show notes of this episode. Thank you for listening. And do us a favor. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts, please go to our show and rate and review it. Give us five stars. It really does help increase our reach of this podcast. Be sure to join us next week for a new episode of Grieving Out Loud. Until then, wishing you Faith, hope and Courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Wonnenberg King and Marley Miller.