As the US battles a deadly opioid epidemic, naloxone a life-saving medication that can reverse an opioid or fentanyl overdose is now more widely available. Experts say the increased access is just one reason. Drug related deaths have declined over the past year, nationwide. But Naloxone only works if someone is there to administer it, and that is not always the case. Many people struggling with substance use disorder use drugs alone, either because they don't have anyone they trust, or because admitting their drug use feels too shameful. So how do you save lives when one bad dose could be deadly? And the people most at risk too often suffer in silence. You. Okay, honey, Kimber, Kimber. Kimber, I'm gonna call your name about one more time, and I'm calling an an ambulance, Kimber Kimber. You better answer me. Kimber, that's the call from a substance use hotline that aired on the podcast This American Life. The unique service gives those using drugs, someone to call. So if something goes wrong, help is on the way. Today I'm grieving out loud. We're sitting down with a paramedic who responded to a woman who became unresponsive on the other end of the phone. Plus, we have a remarkable twist in this incredible story. So I really think it was just like my guardian angel tapping me on the shoulder and guiding me to that, to the hotline. Welcome to Grieving Out Loud. I'm your host, Angela Kennecke. Before we start this important conversation, I wanna take a moment to talk to those of you who are suffering with substance use disorder or have a loved one battling the disease. Please know help is available. You don't have to suffer in silence and recovery is possible. I've talked with dozens of people on this podcast who once believed they had no way out yet they not only found recovery, but are now living joyful, meaningful lives. You deserve that too. Don't wait to reach out. For help. We have a list of resources on our website. Emily's Hope Charity. As a teenager, Kimber King dabbled in Adderall and cocaine, never thinking addiction would be part of her story. But at 17, her world shattered when her brother DJ was murdered, sending her down a path she never expected. Nothing in the world prepares you for losing somebody in such a violent way. Drugs really became like my way to cope and what I was using at the time to like stay sane. You know, it wasn't the best coping skill, but at the time it was really working for me. You know? Sure. Well, people use drugs for a reason and grief is probably the most common reason. There's some kind of grief, some kind of trauma, right? That people turn to substances. Yeah, I never thought that I would be somebody that was injecting heroin. You know, there was like a ton of times in my life where I was like, still had my, my boundaries, like, but I'll never do these. And that was like one of those things on that list that you, you, you never think you would do that until the time presents itself and you start doing those things you said you'd never do. Right. I think that's so true for so many people, right? There's this imaginary line, right? They're never gonna cross it or. Or do this thing that seems so much worse injecting heroin. It just, when I was growing up, of course that was like the worst thing you could do and the stigma surrounding it was worse than it is today, obviously. And I, you know, it's just hard for other people, I think to understand sometimes and even maybe yourself, to understand how you get to that point. After her brother's death, Kimber's battle with substance use disorder escalated quickly. She tried to find recovery several times, including going to rehab when she was 29. She made it 40 days without using substances when a simple mistake changed everything. She stopped at a store during a medical appointment breaking a program rule, and was kicked out of rehab, and I guess I was just feeling a lot of shame that rehab. In in particular, like my parents had like begged me to go when other times they really didn't know what was going on in my life. So like for them to actually be involved to the point of them being like, you really need to get some help. Like I felt so ashamed that I got kicked out of the. This rehab and the person that I had come pick me up was a person that sold drugs, so it was like I kind of set myself up for failure. The shame of getting kicked out of rehab, coupled with not getting as much treatment as she needed, led Kimber to use again. She walked to a needle exchange in town to get clean needles and left with something unexpected. A business card for a hotline called Never Use Alone. I knew that. I was so high risk and a big part was I never wanted my mother to bury another child. And for my mom to find, you know, they had no idea I was home. I didn't tell anybody I got kicked out because I was very ashamed of it. And the last thing I wanted was for them to, you know, go looking for me and finding me home alone, you know, dead in, in my apartment. So obviously I didn't wanna be doing substances at that point. I had enough sense about me to actually like be concerned about my safety. Like I wasn't trying to hurt myself. I really was just trying to get high at that point. And I think that is most, most people. And that was the first thought that went through my head. When you said your parents had begged you to go to treatment, was Yeah, they didn't wanna lose another child. I mean, they had already lost one child in such a horrific way and, and I'm sure you thought about that all the time. It is a responsibility and 'cause I know my own kids, the surviving siblings. You know, they feel a great sense of responsibility to not put me through that. Anything like that again. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sibling loss really changes a person. I mean, it, it does. Since Kimber hadn't used in over a month, she knew her tolerance was low. Putting her at a high risk of overdose, wanting to be cautious. She decided to call the hotline's number on the business card. She received the hotline. Operators take the caller's location and stay on the line while they use. If the caller becomes unresponsive, they immediately contact emergency services. Never you go. Hi, my name's Kimber. How are you? Good, how are you? I'm good. And let me catch your name one more time. Kimber. Hi. That's what I thought. Okay. Kimber admits, at first, she was a little apprehensive about dialing the number. I really didn't know what to expect. Like, is she gonna start talking to me about God? Is she gonna start, you know, talking into a rehab? Like, or is it like a police line? Like, can I actually trust this person that they're not gonna send the police to my house?'cause I, you know, they know what I have there. So it. Took me a minute to actually like trust her. Kimra, I've never called you before. I'm glad you called. Have you called us before? No, this is my first time. Oh. I just wanted to rehab yesterday and I don't wanna use that myself. Okay. Where? All right, so what are you going, what are you going to use Kimberly and how you don't use it? Um, I'm injecting heroin. Okay. Probably fentanyl. The first time you hear about these hotlines it's like just such a crazy concept, you know? So I just remember being kind of like a little bit standoffish and roots to her and then we got to talking and, you know, she's just a mom through and through and so I got comfortable with her. Alright. Are you, you're by yourself in your home, in your apartment? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You got your door unlocked? Um, let me check. Hey, hold on. Yeah, it's unlocked. The last thing I remember was I did my shot and then. She wanted me to wait a minute 'cause I only did half of it, which I never did. Like I was just listening to her, thank God I did. And so I only did half of the bag and then I was like, okay, I'm good. I'm gonna do the rest of this. And she was like, maybe wait a minute. And I did the rest of it and that was when I, I went out. You okay honey Kim? Kimber, Kimber. Kimber. I'm gonna call your name about one more time, and I'm calling an ambulance. Kimber, you better answer me. Kimber sensing something was wrong, Jesse. The hotline operator called Emergency Services. What's the nature of the request? The caller became unresponsive while on the line with me. Okay. Do you have any reason to believe they may have taken any narcotics? Uh, we're, we're an overdose crisis line, so it's possible. Okay, ma'am, can you gimme any specifics in terms of the age of the potential patient? The female, her first name's Kim, K-I-M-B-E-R. Okay. We're gonna get help in roof. Ma'am. If you happen to get them back on the line or gain anything further, please call us right back, okay? Okay. Yeah, I've got the call merged in. Yeah. Okay. Can you hear anything in the background, ma'am? No, I've at all. I don't anything up on my end. No, let call her name. Lemme call her name again. Kim Burs. Maybe answer me, Kim Bur No, no. Let's, okay. I'm gonna get multiple agents. You gonna route to us Nest. Okay. Okay. Her front door's unlocked. Okay. Thank you for letting us know. All right. Okay. Bye Kimber, baby. I gotta see some help coming. As Jesse stayed on the line, the ambulance rushed to Kimber's location and administered Naloxone saving her life. So I really think it was just like my guardian angel tapping me on the shoulder and guiding me to that, to the hotline. I. So what exactly is that? Hotline Never use Alone is a US National Overdose Response line created for people who are using substances alone. Stephen Murray started the hotlines in Massachusetts, New York, and Vermont after noticing the need while he worked as a paramedic. I've responded to like well over a hundred overdoses in my career. I, I, I have, unfortunately, I've, I've done more than 30 field pronouncements of people who've died from overdose, and the thing that I noticed was that everybody who died from overdose, the thing that they hadn in common was that they were alone at the time that they had used, and then someone found them dead. People who used with other people weren't dying. It was the people. And then, and actually towards the end, people were dying with narcans next to 'em. Right. So the antidote, right what that could help them was right there, but there was nobody there to help. Stephen's Group eventually separated from Never Use Alone and became its own organization, now known as Safe Spot. About 70% of the operators, including Stephen, had personally struggled with substance use disorder. While the other 30% have watched a family member battle the disease or have professional experience in the field, people call in, they get a peer, they hang out on the phone with us while they use, and if they overdose, we are able to get help to them. And how many lives do you think you've saved? It's hard to count. So we've had, our line has had 22 overdose detections, so that's like one number is that 22 people who would've died are not dead. Have you lost a loved one to overdose or fentanyl poisoning? I'd like to invite you to share their story on our new Emily's Hope memorial website called More Than Just a Number. They were our children, siblings, cousins, husbands, wives, aunts, uncles, and friends. So much more than just a number. You can submit a memorial today on more than just a number.org. That doesn't capture a lot of the overdose prevention work that we're doing, so I have like a new, we're, we're like capturing stats in a new way right now. I hope to have some data by the end of this year, but where we're looking at like what actions do operators take to help people slow down? Space out their use, you know, be a little bit more careful, like encourage 'em to test their stuff. How, just like having somebody there who is like just this nonjudgmental, compassionate person, like how does that turn into people's, like changing their lives?'cause we don't talk about recovery, we don't talk about treatment. We don't, we don't talk about any of that. It's a hundred percent safety focused. All we care about is people's safety. But what we end up seeing is people are used to having very conditional care in their lives. Their family will talk to them when they're sober, when they're in treatment, their provider doesn't want to see them, their, their mental health provider's. Like, I can't talk to you when you're using like, whatever. So sometimes we're like a very unique. Type of support, like an unconditional support that people don't really have anymore. It's kind of like, I had dogs the whole time I was using, but my dogs always gave me that unconditional love that I, I didn't always feel like I had from other people. And they were a huge part of why I felt like I got better is that I always had them and they always were there for me. Like my dogs saw me overdose, like, and they don't judge. Right. Dogs don't judge. That's why they're so great. And we sort of provide in a lot of ways that sort of same like, we're here to hang out and we, we think you're cool and we, we love you the way you are. And that's really valuable to people. I. Stephen's own battle with substance use disorder began with alcohol when he was a teenager. I had a pretty abnormal upbringing in the sense that when I was pretty young, I was in third grade, we moved overseas to Europe. My dad was working for Coca-Cola and ended up in Austria as a third grader and lived there for four years. And then I lived in Hungary for five years. And one of the interesting things about living in Europe is that there's definitely a different culture around alcohol use in youth. It's a lot more acceptable. I remember being able to be served wine as like a, you know, like a 13 or 12-year-old at a restaurant. And when we got to Hungary, Hungary was a little bit more like if you had money and you could reach the bar, you could get something to drink. And so. Yeah, I had a pretty like early exposure to alcohol, which got outta hand really, really quickly. Stephen says he was eventually able to moderate his alcohol use in high school, but then in college he moved back to the United States and started experimenting with cigarettes and marijuana. I. I had a couple of things happen. Two friends of mine died within like a year of each other. One of my friends fell off of a balcony and then the other friend was beaten to death by her boyfriend. Oh my God. I was just like super depressed and isolated from my family. My family was still living in Europe. I'm in Miami. My sister was in Boston and the like opioid. Pill mill thing was going on. This is like 2008 Miami, like where, where things really were getting going. And the dealer who used to come to our house, so I had a, a roommate that was selling weed and the dealer that used to come to our house was like. Oh man, you're like super depressed. You should try this. Like, 'cause it'll make you feel better. And so I did and it made me feel a lot better. At first it made me feel better and then it made me feel nothing and nothing was better than being depressed. And so that like started off several years of using opiates. Stephen, what's so interesting to me about that is that your addiction, although you had the, maybe the personality. Tendencies and that sounds like my daughter all in on whatever it was that she was gonna do. Right? So there's some personality factors, but I have a grief expert who was a friend of mine and I've had on the podcast a couple times, and he says, most addiction is rooted in grief. And certainly I. Your turning to opioids and that addiction was rooted in grief. It is really interesting and one of the things that I find like very unique about my story compared to like other people that I was using with and around was that I felt very like personally impacted by grief and it actually goes way. Back prior to that, and when I was in fourth grade, one of my classmates died in a fire in her house. We had, uh, one of my really good friends, his older sister died from meningitis. She was in high school. I used to be at their house a lot, and one of our friends died in a, a commercial airline accident. So, oh my gosh. I had experienced a lot of death actually of young people. Of young people, of young people, and most young people don't experience that, you know, before the Fentanyl crisis. As Stephens struggled to cope with his grief, he also fell deeply into opioid addiction. However, for the first year, most people didn't realize he was struggling. I was the University of Miami. My grades were okay. For the first year that I was using, I got elected to the Village Council in my town. I was the youngest person ever. Oh, so this is Coconut Grove, which is right next to where the University of Miami is. University of Miami is in Coral Gables. Coconut Grove is sort of like in part of the city of Miami. It's a village. It's right next to it. I was a teaching assistant in the business school, so I was like really busy and so opiates were like a really good antidepressant for me. But the problem is that it made me pretty lethargic and sometimes a bit apathetic towards like what I needed to get done. And so I had used Adderall before when I was a freshman to study and, and whatever. And so I was like, oh, why don't I add in Adderall to like, you know, kind of up my game here a little bit. And what's really interesting is that. It worked. Right. I think we always look at drug use from the sort of like negative side. And like for me, like opiates probably, you know, like could potentially have kept me from, you know, wanting to die. Like they made me like able to function through like some very severe grief that I was not coping well with otherwise. And stimulants helped me to like stay on my game. The hard part for me about stimulants was that I. Sometimes we would like run out of Adderall, like locally, we couldn't find it. So I, I was also using meth, so I was switching sort of back and forth to whatever we had available at the time. And, uh, my major side effect from the stimulants was like crippling anxiety. I would have chest pain all day long that like radiated down my arm and I thought I was having a heart attack. And I, I started using benzos on top of that, you know, to dull the effects of the anxiety. So I'm like, you know, opiates, baseline plus stimulants, plus benzos. Despite his drug use, Stephen says he managed to function fairly well for about a year, but then he began struggling with sleep and experiencing hallucinations. My sister said, Stephen needs to go to treatment because he's scaring me because he's hallucinating. He has weapons, and he thinks that people are after him. No one else had any clue in my family with that. Wow. But my sister was scared. Well, and I do kind of understand,'cause I didn't know everything that was going on with my daughter. She did a really good job of hiding it from me. But I did know about marijuana and Xanax. I would never have imagined heroin. I just, my mind just didn't even go there. And she was always sick. Right. So she was probably trying to stop and probably trying, you know, and I was like. We need to go to the Mayo Clinic. What's wrong with you? You're, you know, so family members can really be in the dark. Yeah. And I think we do that to ourselves in a lot of ways, right? We make it really difficult for people to, you know, be open about what's going on in their lives. And unfortunately, that to me, that is actually a reflection of both drug policy and then also how drug policy reflects the societal views around drugs. Culture. Yeah, culture, right. Thankfully for Stephen, his family realized something was terribly wrong. They held an intervention and convinced him to enter a 28 day inpatient treatment program. It was tough for a lot of reasons, and the thing that I didn't appreciate, and this sort of gets back to grief, is that I would make all these strong connections with people and love them, and then they would all die. So many of my friends from rehab died within five years. And sorry, it was like a whole Thank you. It's like a whole new wave of grief. So that was something that I didn't really anticipate. The other thing is that I'd never been institutionalized any way before, and that is its own, its own trauma of like being kind of like locked up and like you can't leave and there's rules. Well, you could have left right though. You were an adult. I mean, you could have left. Yeah. It didn't feel that way. Mm-hmm. I wasn't there like by court order or anything like that, but there's a lot of pressure because my parents were spending a lot of money and you know, I wanted to get better. I wanted to like see it through. I wanted to stop using, so I was in a different situation than a lot of people who I was there with because I actually, I actually was ready to stop. The reason I said yes is that my anxiety was so bad. I said, anything that will take away this anxiety that I feel every day where I feel like I'm gonna die every single day from from a heart attack. That is why I said yes. After rehab, Stephen was able to get on the path to recovery, even though we had a couple of short relapses along the way. He says he couldn't have done it without the support of his family. I moved at Beckon with family three different times, and uh, was lucky to have that. And having parents that would take me back with love and open arms like kept me from having to go onto the street. A lot of people that I'm friends with didn't have that, didn't have that privilege. With his family's support, Stephen decided to pursue a career in EMS in 2014, just as fentanyl was beginning to appear in the drug supply, he became a paramedic. I went on my first overdose quite quickly, like within a matter of days I had been on my first overdose. I was struck by a few things like one, I was struck by the volume of overdoses and then also by the reactions of the people that I was working with and their hatred and disdain for people that use drugs. That they saw them as being subhuman, you know, just like, oh, it's just a bunch of addicts and junkies. And that was the mentality that many folks in EMS and police and the hospital and how they felt. And it wasn't just my air. I mean, we used to go into other systems to bring patients to other places. So I went west into New York, I went east into towards Boston, and there was like this universal disdain for drug users and. Meanwhile, that was me and people didn't know that about me. I was in the closet about it, and so I kind of just like quietly observed for several years as I like worked my way in through the system. I ended up becoming a paramedic. I rose to the rank of lieutenant. I oversaw our shift operations on Saturdays for many years. I was the nice EMT that people like. Enjoyed to like be around, I think like folks that were using drugs, I treated them like humans. Do you think that some of that stigma. Started to change during those years? Or is it still there? Is it always gonna be there? It's tough. There is some level of change happening. Uh, one of the things that I do is, I guess you would call it like a side hustle, is I train EMS around the country and I do stigma reduction training. I have a two hour training that I've done for thousands and thousands of EMS providers in like a dozen states and. The whole idea being to like help reduce sort of stigma towards folks that use drugs by convincing paramedics that they're people that matter and that the actions that paramedics take for people that use drugs matter and to think of them as as whole patients, you know, as the complex medical patients that they are. And that's like why you become a paramedic is 'cause you love medicine and you love helping people. And so these are some of our most complex and interesting patients. So. Yeah, I think it's improved a bit. The reception to me is, is quite good. Well, that's good because I know when I first went public with my daughter's story, of course it was 2018 and I would say 98% of the, and I was in the public eye and social media, you know how that is, 98% of the comments and people were supportive and caring and kind. Right. But it's always those. That was 2%, right? Yeah. The of the horrible, and I remember there was a comment like, your daughter was just a junkie. She deserved to die, or You're a horrible mother. You know, those kinds of things. And I'm like, how can people not understand that these are people's children, these are people's, you know, wives and husbands and aunts and uncles and whatever. I just don't understand how people can dehumanize people in that way. At Emily's Hope, we're working to break the stigma around substance use disorder, so more people are not ashamed about the disease and get the help they desperately need. We also believe education is key, which is why we've created a K through 12 substance use prevention curriculum to teach kids about the dangers of drugs and how to make healthy choices. For more information, check out our website, Emily's Hope Charity. You can find a link in the show notes of this episode. While you're there, we'd appreciate it if you take a moment to rate and review this podcast and share it with your friends and family to together we can raise awareness. And change lives. I came out about my substance use history in 2019. So I had gotten married, I had children. I'm a homeowner. I was a decorated paramedic. I felt like I had the power to finally come forward about my story. I, I was pretty nervous actually.'cause I thought, you know, that 2% that you're talking about, I was like, I'm gonna get eaten alive by the online trolls when I do this. So I gave a speech in uniform and my wife. Videotaped it. Two things happened. So one is. Well, I got really choked up when I was giving my talk, like when I was coming out. But we had like all the on-duty EMS fire and police folks were out that day and, and watched the speech. And when I came down from speaking, a few of the cops were like wiping tears outta their eyes 'cause they like knew and respected me like I had been there with them in. Really tough stuff. I mean, I've, I responded to more than 8,000 calls in my career. Like I've been through it and I've helped save cops lives and like they trusted me as, as someone who had their back. And, and I think a lot of them were probably thinking about how they had baby treated. Drug users while this drug user was working alongside them, you know, all along. Right. So that was really impactful to see that like, oh wow. Like I, this actually, and then the second part was that the video kind of had went like micro viral of me giving this speech. And there was not one negative comment. And in fact, I had many, many people who were first responders in recovery reach out to me privately to thank me for speaking up. Right after I spoke out too, I had judges and doctors and prosecutors from around the country who'd lost a child in the same way as me. Say, oh, you know, thank you for speaking out and this happened to me too. You know, it, it can happen to anybody. So that definitely happens when you share a very. Painful yet powerful story, right? As one of the nation's strongest financial organizations, first Premier Bank and Premier Bank Card have the strength to do good. We support nearly 700 organizations and nonprofits. Our employees give more than 30,000 volunteer hours annually, and we are continually seeking ways to make South Dakota an even better place to live. It's the premier way. First Premier Bank and Premier Bank card. In addition to working as a paramedic, Stephen began helping with the overdose prevention helpline, then call, never use alone. He wanted to support people struggling with substance use disorder any way he could. Then during one of those calls, his life became full circle. He was the paramedic on the scene when Kimber overdosed. With Kimber waking up and there being nobody there and like her saying that she had been on the phone with the hotline. I was like, oh my God, this could actually work. You know? It's like I actually got to see it work, to see it work in my own community. I. And that was really like the catalyst I needed to like get out of EMS and, and to get into public health. Stephen no longer works as a paramedic. Instead, he's the hotline director and harm reduction program manager for Safe Spot Kimber. Now two works at the hotline as an operations coordinator, but getting there wasn't easy before taking on the role. She relapsed and survived another overdose. You have this second overdose, and then what ultimately made you go into recovery and, and stay in recovery? I'm a firm believer that people will not get sober until they're ready for whatever reason that is, even though death is, you know, I, that's what you always used to hear. People need to hit rock bottom. That's a common thing, but rock bottom today is death. You know, and so I always say I'm just, I just wanna keep people alive. And it's frustrating because I think on one hand you're right, like until somebody is ready, then within themselves. To change no matter what the change is, whether it's it's getting into recovery or whether it's changing some other negative behavior, right? They're not gonna do it till they're ready, but yet the risks are so high. That is a big reason why I, I was done. The drug supply is just so tainted at this point that you can never use safely because you just never know what's in it. And even if you get it tested. You can't tell like what the levels are at home with just a dip test, you know? So that was a big factor. But I did kind of hit like a new rock bottom for myself. I had always been a person that was housed, you know, a person that was able to hold a job, even if it was never long term, I could, you know, keep a job for a little while. So I had my door kicked in. The sheriff came and kicked me outta my apartment. So I was couch surfing, homeless with the guy I was seeing at the time, and my dog, and then the guy I was seeing, he stole my car and totaled it. I, I never saw him again. He disappeared. He had warrants out, he had some escape charges, like obviously not a good person. So then my car got totaled. So then I was really homeless, couldn't stay in the car, couldn't get around, lost the car. My mom was letting me stay on her couch, but she was about to get kicked out because she lived in low income housing. You can't have people like there long term that are on your lease. So she was starting to get in trouble. And then I found myself homeless in a, I had gotten a ride to a bigger city and I got stuck out in that city and. I had nothing anymore. My cell phone was stolen, my purse, I literally had everything I could carry in this backpack. So I had my IDs, my debit cards, even though they didn't have anything on them, no way to make money. You know, I was doing things to make money that, you know, were not things I wanted to be doing. And finally, I, I just kind of surrendered. I just didn't even recognize myself anymore. I really didn't. Kimber went to the emergency room, hoping for a detox bed. Thankfully, she was able to get help and this time felt different. She was ready to turn her life around. And I remember going in there and usually like I'd go in and. Make up a bunch of stuff, like if you say that you have an alcohol problem, they'll give you like Valium and stuff like that to come down, get through the withdrawals, and usually I would like tell 'em all this stuff so that I could get anything extra. I could get to like do the detox and like they would give you methadone in there so you can start getting back on that and tapering off the heroin onto the methadone. And I just remember walking into, and they called me back there to do my, um, intake, and I opened my mouth to start lying to this woman. And I just started like crying, like, like sobbing. I couldn't talk to her. I couldn't, I couldn't get anything out. And I just like, she's like asking me all the basic questions and she's like, do you wanna hurt yourself? And I, at that point, like, I would never say that out loud because I don't wanna, I. You just, there's things that you don't say, so certain things don't happen. And I just remember saying that I didn't wanna live anymore, and so I was just completely honest. In July of 2022, Kimber was placed on a psychiatry hold and sent to detox. That moment marked a turning point, and she has been drug drug-free ever since. Although Kimber says going through withdrawal was an extremely painful experience, both mentally and physically. I was in like a full psychosis. I was convinced that I could like hear people talking through the walls. The emotional part. You just sit there and cry 'cause you haven't felt any emotions for so long, like you were so numb. You know, I was smoking crack regularly along with all of this and. Just the complete, like lack of dopamine or any of those feel-good chemicals like you, you wanna die. But all I could keep telling myself was like, it was like my brother was there with me the whole time. This guardian angel and I, I really feel like that's a big reason why I'm still so today. This voice kept saying in my head, like over and over. It wasn't me saying it. It was everything you need is inside yourself. Like, you got this, you have everything you need to do this. Throughout her journey, Kimber never lost contact with Stephen After she found full recovery. Kimber first started volunteering with the hotline and eventually became a full-time employee answering calls from people who were concerned about overdosing just like she once was. I was. Answering calls and instantly, this just felt like so natural to me because A, I have such a strong connection, like it worked for me. So I loved telling people about my experience if they were open to hearing about it and being able to share that. And I think people appreciated that too. Like knowing, oh, this is like a person, that this actually worked for them so I can trust that it works for me. Wow. Life has come a full 360. Yeah, all of these different things, like the way, everything, I just don't believe in coincidence anymore. Like, it's just very, very crazy to me that the only thing that I've known for a long time is using drugs and like being held to turn that into a career. Like all of my knowledge about that life. I work with a lot of researchers and obviously I'm, I'm presenting to a lot of doctors and all these people from different walks of life, but. The one thing that they're always like looking for are people with experience firsthand. And you know, I feel like such of an an imposter sometimes, but I realize that I'm in those rooms for a reason. I. In addition to the hotline, Kimber has a lot of other things on her plate. She's going to college for public health, planning a wedding and raising a one-year-old daughter. On top of all that, she's caring for her mom, who's terminally ill with cancer. The reason why I can do all these things now is because I've found, you know, some sobriety for myself and found community and my job at the hotline is, is so important to me and. My life, like everything I do pretty much revolves around that now. Yeah. That's amazing. Do you have any parting words or anything you want people to know? Yeah, I mean, I just want people to know like, if I can get sober, so can you. I am thrilled with your story. It is just, it's one of those stories that we all wanna hear, right? That somebody can survive, maybe go through even horrible things, even after their survival, but turn their lives into something completely different. And help others. I mean, that's truly amazing. Thank you. Well, we, what you're doing is amazing too. Losing a, a child, I'm so sorry. And what you're doing is so important and so valid. I think the voices of the parents is so needed right now with how many people in my generation we've lost. Yes. There is a parent out there that that needs to hear you. So thank you for what you do. Oh, you're welcome. Thank you so much. And thank you for listening to this episode of Grieving Out Loud. If you'd like to learn more about Safe Spot, we posted a link in the show notes of this podcast. There you'll also find a link to our website, Emily's Hope Charity, where you can get more podcast episodes. Read my blog and check out the latest news headlines surrounding the Fentanyl epidemic and substance use disorder. Thanks again for listening. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Weinberg, king and Marley Miller.