Speaker 2: 0:07

Hello, my name is Angela Kennecke. Welcome to Awareness, action and Hope, navigating the Opioid Fentanyl crisis. This year I had the privilege of hosting a national broadcast dedicated to raising awareness about the opioid crisis during the powerful special sponsored by Walmart. I had the honor of meeting others who are grieving the loss of loved ones to fentanyl, as well as those who have overcome difficult situations and are now helping others in their fight against addiction. That includes today's guest, Jose Rivera.

Speaker 3: 0:40

The reason why I wanted out of my home and in the gangs, because my mother was like extremely abusive. She was into torture, torture, attack to sex crimes that she was an alcoholic.

Speaker 2: 0:49

From an abusive childhood to joining a gang at just 11 years old, Jose's life could have taken a very devastating turn. In fact, most of the people he knew in his gang are no longer alive, but Jose has been able to defy the odds and has made it his life's mission to help those battling mental health issues and substance use disorder. His powerful story on this episode of Grieving Out Loud.

Speaker 3: 1:16

It started with the high school principal. He treated me as if he loved me. That was the first time a male adult, especially imprinted. I love you, brother. I'm gonna look after you. I have your back, and the others who did it, he put them in place.

Speaker 2: 1:38

Jose, it is fantastic to see you again, even if it's just virtually here in our virtual podcast studio. We got a chance to meet when we recorded a special, a special about fentanyl awareness and giving people some advice and some hope, and that's currently online. And we'll put a link to that in the show notes of this podcast. But it is, it's great to see you again.

Speaker 3: 2:02

It's great to see you and it's great to be here.

Speaker 2: 2:05

Were you surprised getting called to be part of that special?

Speaker 3: 2:09

I was a little bit, I was a part of it last year here at the WHNT, but I was totally shocked to get called back in it again and I thought, I thought it was amazing. It was a great experience.

Speaker 2: 2:20

Yeah, it's about an hour long, close to an hour long, and it has just a lot of information and a lot of good advice. I shared my story along with Lauren shared her story, and you talked a little bit about your background as well, and I just found that so fascinating. Your story is fascinating to me. Jose grew up in Brooklyn, New York, within the Lafayette Gardens Housing project. The New York City Housing Authority Development has faced many challenges.

Speaker 3: 2:49

Lafayette Gardens is well known as infamous fraud. You know, a lot of street stuff, drugs, gang violence. I started out in the gang, you know, from age 11 to 14.

Speaker 2: 3:03

11. Did you feel like you had any choice at age? Did you have to join a gang? Is that just how the culture was in this area? Tell me a little bit about how that came about. 11 is so young to be a member of a gang,

Speaker 3: 3:14

right? There were guys who started younger than that and what it was like basically at that age, I had no idea, or I didn't believe I would live to see adulthood.'cause so many of really, so many of us is dying. Between the turf wars, you know, amongst ourselves. And so I had no vision of a future per se, and then I came from a extremely abusive home. And so I didn't have no love, uh, I didn't feel loved and didn't feel wanted. Whereas I turned to the streets. The reason why I wanted out of my home and any gangs, because my mother was like extremely abusive, she was into torture, torture attack to stack crimes that she was an alcoholic. And so she had four boys, two of us, you know, she really worked over. And then the other two is extreme opposite. So I didn't, again, I didn't feel loved, I didn't feel supported. I was always called fat, stupid, and you know, and amongst the other things, you know, being beaten. So I wanted to learn how to fight and, uh, be able to protect myself.

Speaker 2: 4:16

So you found your sense of belonging among the gang members?

Speaker 3: 4:20

Yes, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 4:21

But what was that like? Can you explain to me like. Did they look out for you? Did they take care of you? Did you feel like they cared about you, were your, maybe you didn't feel as if your parents did,

Speaker 3: 4:31

right? No, they friends take care of ourselves. The older leaders don't take care of us whatsoever. It's more of just wanting to belong to something. So I didn't feel like I belonged to a family, so I'm gonna belong to this crew, you know? And it was many multiple gangs within the project at the age of 11. The older guys utilize us by putting drugs on us and their money on us when they're gambling.'cause when the cops would come outta nowhere and search them, it was illegal to search minors. That's why the kids, we would have their guns, their, their drugs, their money, you know, 'cause it'd be like large circles and they playing, shooting dice, that kind of thing, and making 20 bucks for a whole day of carrying their stuff. That's a lot of money for a 11-year-old at that time. And it always end the same way. Arguments start, the shootout starts, and then everyone's, you know, spread like roaches, you know? So, uh, it's more of the camaraderieship between the same age cls, right? So it's like, yeah, I worked for this guy, we worked for this guy, answer this guy, but we survived together. So it's more about that than anything.

Speaker 2: 5:40

And your activity with the gang progressed beyond the age of 11. Right. What kinds of things were you doing as you got older?

Speaker 3: 5:47

Right. So, um, there was different vices. You know, I'm not proud of being in the gang, but I am proud that I've never sold the drugs. You know, I took orders, I carried it, I carried their weapons, I muled transported, building to building, that kind of stuff. But as small kids, we had different vices like. The older teenagers, especially the girls, they had a thing for with, um, jewelry and wearing, uh, emblems from cars like the Honda Accord emblem, the age or the Mercedes-Benz emblem. So we would break those off of cars and sell 'em to the teenagers. Then they would put it in their sneakers or they were hanging it on their chain, you know, that kind of stuff. Or make earrings out of 'em, you know? So 11 and 12, that was kind of our vices. Stealing pit bulls from junkyards and know wrecking yards and then selling it to the dope dealers 'cause they liked having pit bull fights. So that kind of stuff, you know, dealing from the stores, you know, things like that. So, did you ever use drugs yourself when you were involved with the game? Never. You didn't? I didn't because I progressed to the point where I actually became a leader, you know, in my age group. So I was the boss of my own crew and I had the biggest crew in my age group. We were 17 solid, and I had to fight for that. You know, every day was a fight, you know?'cause you always have someone trying to out step you or like, there's always a coup going on, if you will. So always fighting and always fighting. So I had to be on point at all times and you know, if I wasn't on point, if I'm high or something, I'll get taken out. I've seen a lot of older guys get taken up that way. So I've never touched alcohol, never touched the marijuana, didn't touch the cocaine like the older teenagers did. I didn't do any of that 'cause I'll always looking with my eyes in the back of my head.

Speaker 2: 7:37

Interesting. But there was a turning point in all of this, obviously, right?'cause you're still here with us. Otherwise you wouldn't be. So as you said, the life expectancy is not high for a gang member, for somebody coming from the projects. So what happened?

Speaker 3: 7:53

Well, I was sent to a high school that's far away from my projects. And that was,

Speaker 2: 7:58

why was that? Yeah. Why were you sent far away?

Speaker 3: 8:00

Well, it is interesting. It is like how it's zoned versus how you test. Because we had a problem. We called the project middle school and all of my friends, all my brothers went there. I didn't go there. I went to a different school that was in a different neighborhood, another project rivalry area because of my art. Because that's the only thing that kept me in school. You know, it was my art. I had an art teacher in elementary school who like really looked out for me. I got my art put in the Brooklyn needed gas company and also went to the art institute in Manhattan for display. You know, even though I kept getting suspended for fighting, but I never initiated the fighting. I just always defended, you know, and then wouldn't stop. That's how I made my name. But I always wound up going to special programs and that's located in schools far away. So I always had gotten into fights with other guys, some other locations 'cause they knew who I was and where I was from.

Speaker 2: 8:59

What kind of art were you doing when you were young?

Speaker 3: 9:01

So just basically, the schools will always challenge you, create a portfolio, whether it be off the top of your head, or they'll give you an assignment, you know, something that looks, so, one of'em was the Brooklyn Gas Company. It was a futuristic world. With flying cars and you know, basically Star Wars style portrait I did. And then, uh, the one in Manhattan, that was the Brooklyn Bridge. I drew a large mural of the Brooklyn Bridge

Speaker 2: 9:29

because of his artwork. The Pratt Institute awarded Jose a. Six month scholarship to the prestigious private school. The scholarship also helped him get into a middle school far from home and away from his fellow gang members. But it also came with a new set of challenges.

Speaker 3: 9:47

And I was suspended four times in seventh grade, four times in the eighth grade it went to kick me out for the fighting. But again, that was a rival gangs out there, and they kept trying to get me and so, wow. Yeah. You know, and it, it takes two to fight is how they always said.

Speaker 2: 10:04

Despite the challenges he faced in middle school, Jose's artistic talent opened another door for him this time to the boys and girls high school, miles away from his housing project. It was built in the 1970s as a model education option, which is a school that offers students an alternative to their neighborhood district.

Speaker 3: 10:25

I was scared because it, that's another rival gang projects there. You know, we, again, my products is an infamous projects. We've caused havoc all through Brooklyn, and then some, you know, we travel and get into gang wars, so just surviving that. And so that school was revamped by my principal, uh, who's well renowned now. Frank Micken. What he did was the school had violence like no other, it was drugs, robberies going on in the school, you know, so he 360 did. Basically put chains on the back door so gangs can't sneak in. They had to carry metal detectors. We were checked coming in. We could not bring no weapons and the girls could only have three rings on their fingers. So no excessive jewelry Earrings can't be big and gold. No expensive leather coats. And he wanted us to come to school Monday through Wednesday with a white shirt and tie. And, and he had words or posters or affirmation throughout the school, dress for success, be your best. You know, that type thing. He was helping us transform, so I didn't buy into that in the beginning. I just knew it was a matter of time. These gangs was gonna try to try me. So I did the worst thing I could do and I bought a ra. I carried my razor with me at all times, and I got into it in the hallway at school and the guy snuck me. He was way bigger than me, so I pulled out my razor and I went. Him. But I got grabbed and I turned around. It was the head security guard, so I knew I was expelled. That was it for me, you know? So I was waiting for that to happen. Anyway, so he took me to my principal and I had to wait for him.'cause the principal goes out in the street and he makes sure that the kids get home saved, get on the bus straight and keep the gangs off the kids. So he came in and, um, he, he, I'll never forget it, he said, give it to me fast. You wanna live or you wanna die. You know, and I'm like. I'm, I'm gonna live. I'm, I'm, I'm dirty old from hell, g woo, woo woo, you know? And he is like, shut up. Don't got time for that. Do you wanna live? You wanna die? It was like, well, I want to live. And I'm like, aren't you gonna throw me out? He's like, well, if you wanna live, you wanna stay in this school. That guy you almost try to kill or whatever you try to do. He is the next captain of the football team, and you're gonna be up under him because you're gonna join a team, or you could just go and get out to school. You need character, you need discipline. What's it going to be?

Speaker 2: 12:50

So instead of kicking you out, he gave you the option to join the football team?

Speaker 3: 12:53

Yes, because I had, wow. I had no direction. He was always aware of the kids that was coming into his school somehow. You know, I never understood, like he does his homework. So he knew what I was and where I came from,

Speaker 2: 13:06

and it turned out football was exactly what Jose needed, even though he had never played a day of an organized sport in his life.

Speaker 3: 13:15

We were poor, couldn't afford anything like that. So yeah, it is. It just changed my life between that and dressing up because we didn't have shirt and ties, so he went on TV locally. It was campaigning for support from New York City to donate shirt and ties to the school or the poor kids. And so when you came to school and you didn't have a shirt and tie on Monday through Wednesday, you get sent to the back where you got Polo Ralph, Lauren Red, Hugo Balls, bill bla, Tommy Hilfiger, white shirts, beautiful ties. I would purposely go late just to go get certain ties. So I had a repertoire of white shirt ties. A lot of us did, you know,

Speaker 2: 13:58

but in uniform and, and teaching kids to dress in a way that's nice. That's reflecting. You know something different, right? Yeah. Something it's reflecting if that's what it does. And so you chose football obviously, or we wouldn't be talking and was that hard? Was it hard for you to learn to play football and you had to play with this kid that you tried to cut?

Speaker 3: 14:18

It was tough. It was tough on two reasons. One, I had to go back to the projects and confront the leaders saying, look. I'm out. I'm not playing, I'm not part of the game no more. And I, I just, I'm not down. And at this time, this was the beginning of the biggest drug war that was going on. So my age group was getting poached by different gang members, you know, like to join the cliques. So that's 17 that I was allegedly in charge of. I was the leader. I turned my back on everybody. And they hated me for that, you know? But some supported me for it. The older guys was like, I got your back. Ain't nobody gonna mess with you. But if I catch you going backwards or trying to get down with this gang or this gang and we finna have this war gonna blow your head off. So like, I ain't worry about that. You know, I'm the dude, the football, it was tough because I'd never had to do organize, gathering, running. You know, and then just learning the plays, learning structure, learning to be a real team, a real brotherhood, you know? And then the up, like that guy, um, who was my, now my captain, he was a total jerk. He wasn't from the hood, he was from upper class living. You know, there was a lot of hazing and, you know, it was just, you deal with it, it's not that bad compared to the street hazing, you see? Hmm.

Speaker 2: 15:37

So you were how old at this time?

Speaker 3: 15:39

14. When, uh, when I had to do that transition. Wow.

Speaker 2: 15:44

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Speaker 3: 16:27

Nah.

Speaker 2: 16:28

Yeah,

Speaker 3: 16:28

because that war started a couple of months later. I'd say seven out of that, 17 of my friends, they died in that war. And as the years went on,

Speaker 4: 16:38

oh my God,

Speaker 3: 16:39

there's only three of us left today. Wow. One's in prison doing life. The other one don't know where he is. And then there's me. That's

Speaker 2: 16:48

incredible. I mean, you really did beat the odds. Mm-hmm. I mean, it's unbelievable. Not only did Jose beat the odds, but on the football field, he excelled despite having never played a team sport before. He quickly became a key player and was named Captain his senior year, and

Speaker 3: 17:06

it was amazing. It was amazing. A lot of friends, um. You know, being able to travel all throughout the city and compete against other schools that I've never heard of. There was boroughs I've never been to, and I got to be there

Speaker 2: 17:21

and compete there. Despite leading his team, Jose still didn't feel support from home. His mother never attended any of his games. However, his teammates in school had his back and that support Jose says, ended up changing his life.

Speaker 3: 17:37

The school did so much extra. I had perfect attendance, one because I was an athlete, but secondly because if I didn't go to school, I don't eat. You know, my mother only would feed the younger one. My older brother was always into stealing the streets, so he was never home, and so she made it clear, you know, feed yourself. My principal, because of afterschool programs, he would have boxes. Of, um, heroes, you know, sandwiches and we're talking a hundred of them and a lot of us would like take three, four, and five, you know, and so we'll eat 'em between practice, eat 'em for dinner, you know, take 'em home. That's how I fed myself in the summer. I was summer youth employment programs and that kept me out of the house. And one of those years I earned the scholarship. What they do is each year they pick a thousand employees. They narrow it down with interviews to just 20 and 10, get a a thousand dollars scholarship. The other 10 get a hundred. And so I made the $100 scholarship and got to be with the first black mayor of New York City, mayor Dinkins. So that was another accomplishment. You know, everything just went uphill for me.

Speaker 5: 18:49

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Speaker 2: 19:18

Jose was to find the odds, but it wasn't without challenges that included trying to get into college.

Speaker 3: 19:24

I failed my SAT when I took it. It was the day after I found out my father died, and so I was in a whole nother world when I took SAT and I just wasn't there. I don't even remember taking the test really, and I wasn't willing to take it again. I went to a junior college that had football, you know, to get your grades up and then transfer, that kind of thing. Uh, talk with a lot of other athletes. So it was peer stuff, you know, my peers would say, Hey, I'm going to this school. We learned this. You know, if you don't got the SAT school, you go to a juco, get your grades up and you can transfer. You played for the JUCO and you know, you can earn a scholarship. So that's what I did, you know, and I took out, I did financial aid, Pell Grants loans, and then there was setting us called TAP for New York City kids. I'll never forget it. When I was in college, my senior year, I made line captain in college. I saw Rudolph Giuliani. He was nearby visiting a priest who got attacked on the subway, and so he was gonna cut our college tuitions in the city. So when he was done interviewing with them, he was taking questions from the press. So I jumped in and said, excuse me, sir, is it true that you're gonna cut tap and cause the athletes not to play ball anymore and, and, and have to work? And they was like, well, young man, you gotta get a job like everybody else. I was like, what about us poor inner city kids? We don't even got cars to, to anywhere. And we upstate New York. And he's like, well, I'll figure it out. Bye. It took off and wow. All was, it was like all the microphones came to me, like, team, you know, and I just confronted that joker. And then, you know, afterwards the press was like, I have never seen anyone shuck him up and make him run like that before. Young man what they, and they put it on the news and.

Speaker 2: 21:10

You didn't become a journalist. I'm shocked. I'm shocked you didn't end up becoming a journalist. Instead, you went on, you got your master's degree and and now you're a counselor. You work drug, alcohol counseling, childhood trauma. Mm-hmm. How did you end up in that field?

Speaker 3: 21:23

So, I gotta say it was the internship. The internship was for the outpatient drug therapy. And so I took the internship and within three weeks, the director gave me my own class. The clients really connected to me even as an intern. Of my history, how I talked to them, and how I understood them and how I could relate to them, and I loved it, and the looks in their eyes. And there were times where clients would say, man, you're just a student. You're better than the therapist that used to teach this class. I'm just like, don't let that go to your health. Like don't let that go to your head, you know?

Speaker 2: 21:59

How did it help you understand maybe what was going on with your mother? You know, what you learned as you became a counselor, which you learned about substance use disorder. Did you have a better understanding of what had happened to you as a child because of your mother's illnesses? It was

Speaker 3: 22:16

more of along with spirituality. My understanding is that my mother couldn't help herself. You know, it was the spirit that drove her. She did the best she could with what she had. She had her own demons, you know, so I had to, I had to forgive her for that. Were you able to forgive your mom? Absolutely. You know, I, I forgave her for that as a means to find peace within myself. Because I was an angry child, you know, which is why I was on the streets like that, always at risk, sometimes out till four or five in the morning on the benches, you know, with my friends, you know, a lot of us had these backgrounds. I had a friend who, mom and dad would get high on crack and rape him. I had another friend, oh, mom was a, a prostitute, you know, I had another friend whose parents were either just straight addicts, murderers, you know, you name it. We were all from all walks of life. But I was always the kid that they talked to, so it was like, it was like my calling.

Speaker 2: 23:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And is your mother still alive?

Speaker 3: 23:15

She's still alive. She's still alive. I don't have much communication with her, but I have no ill will towards her. It's just that she's still who she is, if that makes sense. Mm-hmm. My grandma has always said it is always okay to love your family from a distance. Just don't have no

Speaker 2: 23:30

anger. Right. Sometimes that's the healthiest thing to do. Right. But you also specialize now in children and trauma. And how is trauma childhood trauma related to substance use disorder?

Speaker 3: 23:43

Well, because when people carry that, they go back and they're triggered by these events. The emotional pain can be so en enduring and so overwhelming that they want to run from it. They want to escape, you know, that pain for that moment. Some start out with self, you know, mutilating. And I feel that substance abuse is a type of self mutilating.'cause you're poisoning self, you're poisoning it, you know? Um, and they work to take themselves out of that moment of I'm triggered, I'm, I'm nothing. I'm a piece of nothing. I was treated like nothing. I'm not loved. I came up with kids and we were all part of trauma, multiple forms of traumas, you know, so I understood that. I really understood it. And why they're working to escape their pain. But escaping your pain, you can never escape it. All you're doing is temporarily masking it and then it comes back. And then by masking it, people put themselves in worse situations,

Speaker 2: 24:39

which is the one more trauma to mask from. It's a never ending cycle that right? Yeah. Because you just experience more trauma, potentially more abuse when you're high and there's all kinds of horrible things that can happen, especially to women, right? Yes. But to all, everybody. And yeah, it's just a continuous cycle that is that shame and the the need to escape the shame and the pain. Right, right. So what have you found is effective because you are a anomaly. I mean, you're exception to the rule where you had that trauma, but you didn't go in that direction. You talked about all your peers who died and the ones who ended up in prison are just disappeared. Right. So what do you think it was in, in you? I wonder if there's something. I wish we could bottle that. You know what I'm saying? Because a lot of people do endure traumas and they don't choose to use a substance or become a criminal or whatever it is. Right. What do you think it was

Speaker 3: 25:34

for one, again, it started with the high school principal. He treated me as if he loved me. That was the first time I. A male adult, especially imprinted. I love you, brother. I'm gonna look after you. I have your back. And the others who did it, he put them in place when football was over. He talked to the track and field coach and got me on that team. So he did everything. Oh, I stayed busy year round to stay out Those projects, you know, stay outta my home.

Speaker 2: 25:59

So it's proof that just one caring adult can really make an impact, right? Which sometimes I don't know that we believe that, that it just takes one caring adult sometimes,

Speaker 3: 26:08

right? So I practically, because they showed me that they care about me, I started caring about myself and then I developed a want and desire to live.'cause I never had that. And then as awesome things kept happening, it was like, I want, it felt good. And so I wanted to feed that and stay in that moment. You know, I. So a lot of sacrifices is made. Like, you know, there's times when someone would try me or something like that, and that old me wouldn't come out and fight, then I would have to humble down, you know, football taught that discipline. So a lot of things was put in my place, in front of me, and I accepted it because I wanted to survive. I wanted to care about myself. I wanted to be different from everybody else.

Speaker 2: 26:53

Then you cared about others.'cause your whole profession is really about caring about others now. Right.

Speaker 3: 26:58

And I learned that, you know, through football, you know, especially becoming a captain, always have to look after the teammates, you know, always teach and stuff. We had lower classmen when they come in, you know, and guiding them, you know, we, going into college, same thing, became the line captain because I had to teach the other guy and we were, it was a family and that was the first time I felt needed, wanted, loved, appreciated, and I played a role. Nothing feels better than that. And I just, I want to help people understand you can do that too if you make the right decisions, but you gotta want to make that decision. They may not have people in front of them saying, Hey, let me guide you. So I want to be that person to open that door and, and track resources for. That's what I always work to do

Speaker 2: 27:45

today. Jose is a licensed professional counselor at a private group practice where he helps people of all ages from young children to the elderly.

Speaker 3: 27:56

The focus is mainly trauma therapy, trauma work, and then for the little ones is, is a lot of just cognitive behavior therapy, helping them adjusted their circumstances.

Speaker 2: 28:06

Do you prefer to work with children? Is that your favorite thing to do?

Speaker 3: 28:09

Well, I can't say that I like a balance, so all through my career, especially the first 10 years, all my colleagues, they had a thing for, I'm only doing one. Whereas I was always that guy, I need a balance 'cause I'll get burnt out upon just seeing a bunch of kids. So I always had the mixture, adults and kids. So I was the only one in the county mental health center who worked with adults and children, substance abuse and mental health. And I had, you know, also taught groups, substance abuse classes, you know, that kind of thing. Weekend programs for the juvenile detention program, that kind of stuff. So I had a variety, you know, teenagers, adults, children, and so I, that's how I stay balanced.

Speaker 2: 28:53

So for kids who are headed down a difficult road as you were at one point, how do you think we turn that around? You've worked with these kids, you've worked in the juvenile detention centers. If they're already starting to use, maybe, how do we turn that around?

Speaker 3: 29:08

Well, a lot of it has to do with each individual's argument or situation or dilemma. And the teenagers is usually marijuana, use marijuana, and then they're, they come from broken homes where the parents are selling drugs. You know, uh, I've had a lot of clients who parents would say they A DHD, but take the medicine and sell it and the kids will tell me that you, that kind of stuff. So they come from homes where just like I was, their mother didn't care about them, but they gotta have a will. And I had to learn facts. You can't help everybody. I've had teenagers die on, on my watch, you know, drug overdose relapse, DUI, wrecks that took their lives, getting back in the gangs, getting shot. You know, in 18 years. I teach you a whole lot that if you could just meet help, just one, you've done your job. So I have no expectation. Just try to help the best way I can guide the best way I can help support the kids the best way I could. Half the time, that means working with the parent because I've had teenagers many times say, if you just get her under control, I'll be

Speaker 2: 30:17

fine. Oh, sure, sure. Because it is a family issue. It is everybody, and nobody knows that better than you with your background, so. Yeah. And I think it, you're right, like you can't save everybody, even if you're a good counselor, even with your own personal experiences and all this wisdom that you have to impart upon kids, you can't save everybody. Right. And I think that could be very disheartening sometimes.

Speaker 3: 30:42

Right? Right. You know, one, some of the worst cases have to do gonna be the trauma sexual assault victims. It's gonna be the girls who had to learn that the boy, you know, whether be their brother or their uncle or the father who did it, the stepfather that the mother and other relatives will support that male over her. And so that feeling of not feeling love supported or protected, you know, it is, it's so tough trying to get them to see, hey, just you can love yourself.

Speaker 4: 31:15

That they're valuable. That they're valuable, yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's

Speaker 3: 31:19

awful. Those tend to be the toughest ones. And for the past five and a half years, that was focused exclusively on that. You know, I was working with trauma children at the National Children's Advocacy Center here in, uh, Huntsville, Alabama, and it just, it was just a heartbreak.

Speaker 2: 31:36

Yeah. Yeah. I bet it was because I'm sure you helped some, but as you said, everybody, probably not, I. Did you sometimes do you look at your life and think, I can't believe it turned out this way. Considering where you came from and everything that you went through.

Speaker 3: 31:50

I did. But it, it took other people like you asking that and then I'd be like, yeah. You know, because I, I try to stay in the present, you know, the present, the here and now. And that's why I teach my, all of my clients. Stay outta the future. Stay outta the past.'cause it's all anxiety and some depression. And so the goal is just to be present and live for today and tomorrow will work itself out because we're taking care of ourselves today. But when I'm asked that, you know, and then I'll find myself reflecting, but I try to stay outta that. When I used to do that, I would start remembering old friends that that's not here, and especially the ones that died when I was still a teenager, and because I used to blame myself for that. I would always say if I was there, that would not have happened. You know, I had one best friend, kill another best friend. Because the one best friend assaulted him first. But if I was there, that would've never happened. You know? Everyone listened to me and so I, I would, I always blame myself for that, you know? So you have a lot of grief and guilt that

Speaker 2: 32:50

you carried with

Speaker 3: 32:50

you. I carried it and then I made peace with them. Yeah. You know, and it took, being in this field, especially those first 10 years, working with the versatile clientele, my first 10 years, so I had to practice what I preached.

Speaker 4: 33:02

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 33:03

And so sometimes talking to them, I was talking to me too. I bet I had to, you know, give up the anger. Forgive my mother, forgive old enemies from my early childhood, you know,'cause those, those older guys, it was rough, you know, when they get drunk or high, they had a thing for beating up on the little kids. And so I was always big for my age. And a couple times they really laid it on me for, for fun, you know, like they would have punching matches and. One time I couldn't walk for hours, you know, all my friends, we were little guys, you know, I was 13 when that happened. These guys were like 30 5-year-old diesel dope loads and stuff like that. You know, just giving them even.

Speaker 2: 33:45

It is amazing. It's amazing that you survived. It's amazing what you took and made out of your life, because so much of this had to be self-initiated. I mean, I know you had that support and that was huge from the principle. But the rest of it, that was a spark that was lit inside of you, and you did the rest of it yourself, which is amazing.

Speaker 3: 34:07

Right?

Speaker 2: 34:07

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 34:08

I also, you know, when I was in college, I got to play for a legendary football coach, Lou Saban, which was OJ Simpson's coach, when it was with the bills, when they won the championship. Now I did two years with him, so that's amazing, you know, so it's been great. I met that with the best decision I ever made was to reinvent myself and love myself. Learn to love myself. You know, I had to learn that. So, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:33

Well thank you so much, Jose. I so appreciate this conversation and it's been wonderful getting to know you better. You

Speaker 3: 34:39

see here, it's always a pleasure. It's always a pleasure talking with you.

Speaker 2: 34:46

And thank you for listening to this episode of Grieving Out Loud. If you found it helpful, please take a moment to rate and review as well as share it with friends and family. You can find more episodes. Read my blog and discover the latest news headlines surrounding the Fentanyl, crisis and Substance use Disorder on our website, Emily's Hope Charity. Tune in again next week as I sit down with a grieving mother who has made it her mission to raise awareness about the dangers of marijuana to the developing brain.

Speaker 6: 35:18

He said, you probably don't remember, but you told me many years ago that marijuana would hurt my brain. I. And it's ruined my mind and my life and I am so sorry. Mama. I love you.

Speaker 2: 35:30

That's an eye-opening conversation you won't want to miss next week on Greeting Out Loud. Until then, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Wallenberg, king and Marley Miller.