Angela Kennecke: 0:04

Welcome to Grieving Out Loud. I'm your host, Angela Kennecke today on the podcast, I'm honored to be joined by Minnesota's very first Addiction and Recovery Director. This new position was created to break down barriers for those struggling with addiction, as well as leverage state government systems to tackle the crisis head on.

Jeremy Drucker: 0:26

how do we make sure that young people in particular don't start using substances in the first place? If people do start using substances, how can we make sure that we're minimizing the harm that that substance use is causing to them and their communities? Jeremy Drucker brings to the position not only years of experience in public affairs and government, but a deeply personal perspective, having battled substance use disorder himself. My dad was a doctor. My mom was a lawyer. I went to private schools. I got a good education. I went out to graduate school in New York City. But even at a relatively young age you know, I felt really uneasy with myself. Growing up is hard under the best of circumstances. You know, your body's changing. Your mind is changing. for some folks like myself, we found a refuge in substances that really helped ease some of the anxiety that helped us cope with some of the you know, the natural issues that you grow up with and then over time, that becomes a habit and it becomes a lifestyle In this episode of Grieving Out Loud, hear how Drucker went from a successful career to struggling with substance use disorder to now helping others battling the disease. He not only has a wealth of knowledge in his field that we can learn from, but his journey is a powerful reminder that even in our darkest moments, we can rise, create a better life and make a real difference with the knowledge we gain from those difficult experiences. What I take into this role is just a fundamental acknowledgement that we're all doing the best we can and whatever circumstances we're in. And. that doesn't excuse us from the responsibility we have to ourselves and to others to, to make change and make progress and to you know, to fight through some of those insecurities or anxieties, but that we're all coming to this issue wherever we are at from a place of humanity of we're all experiencing something similar and we're all doing the best we can.

Angela Kennecke: 2:26

Well, Jeremy, it was a pleasure to meet you in Minneapolis when we both took part in a panel about fentanyl in downtown Minneapolis at the library, actually. So I, first learned about your role as the state's first director of addiction and recovery in Minnesota, and I was just fascinated by What is the state doing and what does this mean? So anyway, it's great to see you again.

Jeremy Drucker: 2:48

Yeah, thanks so much for having me and for the opportunity and really just appreciated being on that panel with you and you sharing your story. And just being able to, you know, have a conversation about this issue that affects so many different people in so many different ways. And it really involves so many different entities to try and really make progress and make sure that no other families have to go through the tragedy you experienced.

Angela Kennecke: 3:11

Right. And sadly, so many people have all across the country. And we also saw the numbers go up in Minnesota over a period of years as well. And always say I think we're at a tipping point We've had so many people affected by this now

Jeremy Drucker: 3:24

Yeah, the increase in synthetic opioids, you know, seeing what we're seeing with fentanyl, you know, really changed the way that we are addressing this issue that we needed to address this issue. Sort of the old ways of addressing it weren't working in the way that they should be. And so some of the new strategies that have come out around medications for opioid use disorder in terms of embracing harm reduction as more of a philosophy and strategy that's showing effects is I think a good direction that we're moving and really you know, happy to talk more with you about some of those specific things, but one of the sort of encouraging pieces of news is that in 2023, at least in Minnesota, we saw a reduction in overdose deaths for the first time in many years, with overdose deaths fewer by about 8%. And so that is some encouraging news that gives us some feeling that what we're doing is working.

Angela Kennecke: 4:14

and they continue to go down in Minnesota, correct?

Jeremy Drucker: 4:16

Yep. And so what we've seen is, the curve kind of shooting up and then it kind of crested and now it's starting to go back down. And so want to see that progress continue. Obviously, any overdose death is 1 death too many and we need to make sure that we create a system in which of those things happen. But we are starting to see things move in the right direction. I think we want to keep that momentum in progress.

Angela Kennecke: 4:39

right when it's your family your child It doesn't matter that maybe numbers are down that fewer people are dying people are still dying Those people all come from different walks of life, teens, seniors, to those struggling to make ends meet, and celebrities. Jeremy understands this deeply, having faced his own battle with substance use disorder.

Jeremy Drucker: 5:02

I was really fortunate. You know, I grew up with sort of every advantage. You know, my dad was a doctor. My mom was a lawyer. I went to private schools. I got a good education. I went out to graduate school in New York City. But even at a relatively young age I felt really uneasy with myself. Growing up is hard under the best of circumstances. You know, your body's changing. Your mind is changing. for some folks like myself, we found a refuge in substances that really helped ease some of the anxiety that helped us cope with some of the you know, the natural issues that you grow up with and then over time, that becomes a habit and it becomes a lifestyle and along the way you miss out on some of those developmental milestones or you delay some of those developmental milestones, which really can lead to increasing substance use because you're now avoiding something that you feel you should have done a, you know, five years ago or 10 years ago. And eventually, at least for me, it just kind of spun out of control. And while I, on the surface, I seem to have a very successful career. I was working at the Department of Human Services. I had worked at New York City Hall. I had an all but dissertation and English literature , and all of these things, you know, inside, I didn't feel like I deserved those things and the substance use, was both the solution and, covered up that insecurity, but also perpetuated it until finally, I had to make a change.

Angela Kennecke: 6:26

And you've been in recovery for a long time now. What keeps you in recovery?

Jeremy Drucker: 6:30

You know, I really came to believe and one of the things I really believe strongly in is that concept of momentum of that moving forward of sort of stacking days. I think of what's called recovery capital. So what are those things that support your recovery? And so whether it's housing, whether it's, you know a job or education or physical fitness those are the things that I was really fortunate to have. And so to feel good in my body to work out to be able to have a job that has meaning to be able to have a really supportive friends and family network that know about my journey and support that journey. All of that. gives me that momentum to keep going and to stay in recovery.

Angela Kennecke: 7:11

For Jeremy, like so many others dealing with substance use disorder, recovery didn’t come easy. It all started with one tough but essential step—admitting he had a problem.

Jeremy Drucker: 7:23

I knew that I was using substances abnormally for a while, like when I was out in New York, you know, I was drinking a significant amount more than what I even knew was was normal. You know, and I was seeing a psychiatrist at 1 point for some other issues and kind of brought up my drinking and we came up with a program for me to reduce my drinking, which did not work. But I was like, oh, yeah, I'm doing all the right things. But really what happened was there was a really discreet moment where I was at work one day and my substance use and my drinking in particular had gotten to the point where I was really feeling the effects if I didn't drink for a while. And so it was about four o'clock in the afternoon and I was kind of getting shaky and I was feeling anxious and. Went on to Google because that's a thing you can do now and kind of Googled my symptoms and I realized that I could be in some significant health danger. And so, instead of walking to the bus, I walked into a hospital and. Told them what was going on. And before I knew it, they had me hooked up to a whole bunch of IVs and whatnot. And for me, part of my journey was that it always seemed from the outside, like I had everything together. that night, when I had to spend in the hospital, I had to call my girlfriend and tell her I wasn't coming home. you know, the secret kind of came out. And that night, I just remember such an overwhelming feeling of relief that, like, finally, I could just, like, as if a weight had just been lifted from my shoulders. And that feeling of relief really carried me through the next couple weeks. And then I did an outpatient. That really helped. And then I just kind of kept going.

Angela Kennecke: 9:02

What you've described to me is something I've heard time and time again for people who suffer from substance use disorder. Kind of a deep sense of insecurity or a feeling of not really belonging, that anxiety. People looking for relief and they find it the first time they have a drink or they smoke a joint or whatever it might be. They're like, Oh my God. I feel so much better., but what kind of perspective having been through this yourself, do you take into this role that you now hold with the state?

Jeremy Drucker: 9:32

Yeah, you know, I think, you know, it's hard to be a person. I mean, I think it's just it's hard to be a human being on this earth and deal with all of the things that life throws at us. and I think, you know, what I take into this role is just a fundamental acknowledgement that we're all doing the best we can and whatever circumstances we're in. And. that doesn't excuse us from the responsibility we have to ourselves and to others to, to make change and make progress and to you know, to fight through some of those insecurities or anxieties, but that we're all coming to this issue wherever we are at from a place of humanity of we're all experiencing something similar and we're all doing the best we can.

Angela Kennecke: 10:12

right. And I think one thing that your story illustrates is that it can happen in any family. It's not a Parenting issue. It's not an issue of someone being a bad person or I just think there's so many misconceptions across the nation That we still have to dispel As Jeremy's been tackling those myths, his state has seen fewer overdose deaths and fentanyl poisonings over the past couple of years. Sadly, the same can't be said in all states and communities. now in my particular community in my city, not in Minnesota, in a different state, our overdose death rates are actually up this year from year over year by

Jeremy Drucker: 10:57

Wow. Wow.

Angela Kennecke: 10:59

I'm looking toward you and toward what Minnesota is doing. What can I bring to my community and to my state that will turn those numbers around and when we're trying to do, or we are not just trying, we are distributing more naloxone for free. We're trying to get into as many communities as possible. But what do you attribute the drop in overdose slash fentanyl poisoning deaths to in Minnesota over the last couple years?

Jeremy Drucker: 11:26

Yeah, so, you know, I think it's more than just 1 thing and they've talked about experts around the country who have also seen some reductions. And, you know, no, 1 can point to a single sort of intervention or a single activity. That really is responsible for the reduction. But I think generally speaking, sort of the notion of collective impact is at work here. And what I mean by that is, yeah. The advent of naloxone and naloxone saturation, so the idea of getting naloxone into the hands of as many people as possible, especially people who may witness an overdose the increase in access for medications for opioid use disorder. So these are FDA approved medications that have proven to be really effective in helping people who do have an opioid use disorder get off of the drug, but also the broader awareness of the epidemic, you know, the podcasts like yours. the work of really great organizations like, you know, Steve Rumler Hope Foundation just the amount of families out there who have experienced this tragedy, who have used their voices to raise awareness around this. I think all of those things are contributing to a broader awareness and a decrease in the deaths.

Angela Kennecke: 12:31

Right, there are so many organizations like mine. I was formed in 2019, Emily's Hope. But now, in the last couple years, it seems like almost every family who's lost someone has also formed an organization, and that's not a bad thing. I mean, I think that's a great thing to get the word out.

Jeremy Drucker: 12:46

yeah, absolutely. And there's so much power in these families coming together and I've participated in a lot of these events. And they've kind of banded together, at least in Minnesota. Many of the families are supporting each other. They have their own foundations. They have their own events, but they're always well attended. There's always a lot of community members there. There's media and press. They're helping get the word out. There's law enforcement. There's other partners. There's and so I really do think it's making an impact.

Angela Kennecke: 13:13

And also Minnesota is investing heavily in this issue, some 200 million, I believe it's over a four year period that must help fund your position as Director of Addiction and Recovery, but where exactly are those dollars going and where will they be going in the future? I'm sure there's a lot more left to spend yet.

Jeremy Drucker: 13:33

Yeah. So in 2023 the governor and the legislature had an opportunity to make an additional investment over what the state was already spending to address the opioid epidemic substance use disorder broadly. And those investments went into a lot of different places. We call it the continuum of substance use disorder treatment. And so it's prevention. Harm reduction, treatment and recovery. So how do we make sure that young people in particular don't start using substances in the first place? If people do start using substances, how can we make sure that we're minimizing the harm that that substance use is causing to them and their communities? How do we make sure that we're getting those folks into treatment, good, high quality treatment, including those medications for opioid use disorder, but also cognitive behavioral therapy, 12 step programs, whatever it might be, the different modalities of treatment. And then once people do treatment, how are we making sure that they have recovery supports and services to help them maintain and achieve that recovery. So things like housing supports educational opportunities, employment, all of those pieces that people need in order to not return to use, but keep their life moving forward in a positive direction.

Angela Kennecke: 14:45

Is Minnesota one of the first states to make this kind of investment and could other states model? What Minnesota is doing.

Jeremy Drucker: 14:53

Yeah, you know, as far as I'm aware Minnesota is the only state I know of that's really made that big lump sum investment like we did in 2023, to a certain extent, states are doing the bits and pieces that we all kind of talked about with prevention, harm reduction, treatment and recovery, you know, there's a strong national network of folks in states who are talking about how to address this crisis. But really, I think one of the things that's unique about Minnesota is that we are really putting a lot of effort behind putting all of those different pieces together and really linking those different parts of the continuum so that an individual experiences a more or less seamless treatment and recovery experience.

Angela Kennecke: 15:32

And that's so important because if you do like something over here, let's say harm reduction, but you're not doing something over here with treatment or housing, if you're missing something within all that, you're more likely to miss people and to have people relapse and to have more deaths, right?

Jeremy Drucker: 15:50

Yeah, absolutely. And there are gaps in the system that people fall through and, you know, addiction and substance use disorder and opioid use disorder. It's a really messy disease and condition. And so it's not a linear path as much as we might hope that it would be a linear path. And so. People make three steps forward, two steps back. you know, they miss a treatment they lose housing, they go back to use, but you know, they still come back into recovery. And so having a system that can really flex and adapt to the individual journey that a person is on is really key, especially when you're looking at making sure that you have a system that works really for everyone. One of Jeremy's focuses has been on making sure people who are struggling with substance use disorder in prison get the treatment they need. It's important because according to the National Institute of Drug Abuse, 85 percent of people in prison either battle addiction or are behind bars for drug related crimes. Yet despite the overwhelming need, only 5 percent of them receive medication assisted treatment.

Angela Kennecke: 16:59

but yet how do you reform somebody if you're not giving them help?

Jeremy Drucker: 17:02

right, right. And that's one of the things that we did in Minnesota was Medicaid, which is a state federal partnership, which pays for health care for low income individuals, pays for treatment, but there's something called the Medicaid inmate exclusion, which means that if you're incarcerated, Medicaid won't pay for your health care. The previous federal administration opened up an opportunity for states to waive that Medicaid exclusion and use that state federal partnership to help pay for treatment for individuals who are incarcerated. And so many states, both blue states and red states are pursuing that opportunity. Minnesota is pursuing that opportunity as well. But been 1 of the focuses of my position in my role is to really bring together. You know, the Department of Corrections and our jails and then the health care side to really think of how can we address that population in particular.

Angela Kennecke: 17:51

And what kind of success are you seeing or what's working with that population?

Jeremy Drucker: 17:56

So, all of these interventions are sort of in process. So we haven't quite hit go because it takes a while to implement.

Angela Kennecke: 18:03

To come up with the programs and yeah, put them in place.

Jeremy Drucker: 18:06

that's right. Um, But 1 thing we know from research is that, you know, individuals who get access to medications for opioid use disorder, who are incarcerated, they reoffend at a much lower rate. Their successes of treatment are much higher. And so it's 1 of those things where it's good for public safety. It's good for communities. It's good for the individual. And you know, we're really excited to be able to more of that along with other pieces like. peer recovery support you know, helping as people exit incarceration exit into healthy recovery ecosystems with employment, with educational opportunities and all those other things.

Angela Kennecke: 18:44

Yeah, so important employment is such an important thing too, because obviously if someone has a record and it's related to drugs and they can't get a job and, I really think also the other important thing to point out is that you're in a blue state that's taking this very proactive measure by putting a lot of funds and putting you into place. I'm in a red state, but this really should not be. A partisan thing dealing with the disease of addiction and all of its implications on society as a whole really has to be nonpartisan.

Jeremy Drucker: 19:15

yeah, 100%. and one of the reasons I took this role was because I really feel it is bipartisan slash nonpartisan issue. I think you know, there are always different philosophies and different points of view on maybe how to address some of these issues, but I think there's an underlying recognition that. Addiction doesn't care if you're a Democrat or a Republican or you're left handed or you're right handed or you live in a city or you live in the country or and I think, you know, one of the things that we found in Minnesota is we have some really good partners just across the political spectrum who are, you know, focused on this, who understand that it's important. And I hope that we can stay that way. I know this country is Deeply and narrowly divided in a lot of different ways. But I really think this is a space where we can all, as you say, just agree that we all are going to do better if we can't help folks.

Angela Kennecke: 20:07

And this is about human health, and this is a public health crisis that we're in. If we treated it that way across all party lines and across state lines and everywhere, I think we'd be a lot further than we are now nationwide in getting a handle on these problems. But speaking of controversy safe consumption sites. Is that something that Minnesota is looking into, and do you have them yet? you know, there's a lot of controversy surrounding those allowing drug use. you know, we, um, lobby to have fentanyl testing strips legalized they were. And I don't want to ever encourage drug use, but I want to keep people alive until they can get help. I don't want them to die because they made the choice and maybe oftentimes it's not their own choice when, you know, they're going through withdrawals and all of these things. Physically and emotionally dependent on these drugs, I just want to keep them alive till we can get them help. So let's talk about some of these things that people would say enable drug use,

Jeremy Drucker: 21:05

Sure, yeah, and really appreciate, you know, what you said there. I think, you know, that's kind of how I approach it as well. And 1 of the things that we did that 2023 legislative session, where we made that big investment was we propose something that we call safe recovery sites. And so these are brick and mortar locations that offer sort of a continuum of different harm reduction services. So everything from Naloxone to primary care and behavioral health care. care and access to housing you know, clean needles and syringes. And then potentially safe consumption as well, although they're not required. And the approach that we really took in Minnesota is approach that I believe in is that I really believe local communities have the solutions to local problems. And so we recognize that not. Every intervention works for every community. So what we really wanted to do was to offer an array of tools for communities to choose from. And if the safe consumption component was something that a community was interested in, we wanted to offer an avenue for them to explore that. So we are still working on those. 1 has not opened yet either with the safe consumption component or without as you sort of alluded to. There's a lot of kind of details that we have to figure out in that process, but we are still looking at how to do that.

Angela Kennecke: 22:19

safe recovery sites, you're calling And, What's the timeline for you to open one up and where might that be in Minneapolis because it's the largest city or,

Jeremy Drucker: 22:29

I think, you know, in the next couple of months, we'll probably be putting out a next few months. I'd say we're probably putting out. We call our RFP as a request for proposals you know, what we want to make sure is that, whatever we do is something that community has buy in on and so that law enforcement is engaged. The local government is engaged and folks are able to sort of weigh in whether this is right for their community. So, no definitive timetable, but in the next few months, I think we'll be starting that process.

Angela Kennecke: 23:01

anything from what other states are doing in that arena? Yeah.

Jeremy Drucker: 23:04

yeah, so, you know, we had the opportunity to go out to New York in January of 2024 and visit on point, which was, I think, the United States is 1st safe consumption site really learned how they did it out. There was a really fascinating experience. I know Rhode Island has now, Yeah. Opened 1, it took several years for them sort of get their program in order. Jeremy says one of the things he finds most interesting about safe consumption sites is how they could help reduce public drug use. He believes that's a benefit not just for people using substances, but for everyone. Thinking of again, harm reduction, not just in terms of reducing the harm to an individual, but the harm to a community, if we can help bring people in off of streets to help make. The broader public safety and community well being better. And if this can be a tool to do that, I think that a good reason take a look at these.

Angela Kennecke: 24:01

Minnesota is also preparing to launch its legal marijuana market. Lawmakers approved recreational cannabis use in 2023, but it's faced some legal challenges. Regulators are now planning for the initial rollout this spring.

Jeremy Drucker: 24:22

We're in the process of standing up our office of cannabis management, which is in charge of creating a regulated market., you know, the CDC estimates about 3 and 10 individuals who use cannabis exhibit signs of cannabis use disorder. When the Minnesota legislature and the governor did legalize adult use cannabis, part of those negotiations resulted in the recognition that there will be unintended consequences from this. And so there was a significant amount of funding. That was also allocated to prevention, treatment and recovery to help deal with what we could anticipate would likely be some of the unintended side effects of cannabis legalization. And so we are still in the process of standing up that office, but I will say, In the recovery community, there's a broad spectrum of opinions around cannabis. everything from it's a natural corrective to the war on drugs, which many of you has been a failure. Some see it as a helpful tool for managing other issues. Others see it as very dangerous.

Angela Kennecke: 25:19

Right.

Jeremy Drucker: 25:20

You know, the people of Minnesota have spoken. And so that was clearly the direction they wanted to go. I think, from my perspective, I really look at how can we try to keep everyone as safe and healthy as possible, particularly young people.

Angela Kennecke: 25:33

And I think delaying the age of first use is incredibly important, especially when it comes to cannabis, even more so, I mean, it's important when it comes to alcohol, but even more so than alcohol. The studies show that addiction rates are up about 15% you know, depending on the age of first use with cannabis and 9 percent with alcohol. So we know it can be troublesome for a kid if it falls into the hands of kids and we know if it's available everywhere, just like alcohol, it will,

Jeremy Drucker: 25:59

Yes, yes, and I think the other thing that I'm really paying a lot of attention to that is an item of concern for me is would put it in the category of kind of technological innovation, which is, you know, what happens when the full force of the ingenuity and innovation of America's business climate. Gets a hold of this product and says, okay, how can we develop a substance that gets people higher, faster, longer? And what is the effect of that? You know, just as how does online gambling change gambling and how does synthetic opioids change illicit drug use? I think we just need to be mindful of what the technological innovations are around cannabis and what that might mean for especially young people.

Angela Kennecke: 26:38

we already know the THC levels are so much higher than they were. 30, 40 years ago, you know, and, that's why I think we see more cannabis use disorder, you know, cases than ever before too, just the potency of it. But you have a very good point, what's next, what's the next innovation when it comes to that? Yeah, it's a little frightening, I think, to think about. So what's ahead for you in the state of Minnesota in 2025?

Jeremy Drucker: 27:03

you Know, it's hard to say what the next few months will bring, you know, I think, you know, we're in a really interesting time in American history and we've got a change of federal government coming in, which, so we're going to be alive to what changes those might bring. I think we, though, in Minnesota really think that for the most part we've got a good approach in terms of Medicaid, expanding access to medications for opioid use disorder, working on implementing some of these things we passed in 2023, expanding more access to naloxone. We call it naloxone saturation. How do you get more naloxone out there for folks, but also really focusing on improving the quality of treatment. doing more in the prevention space, especially with cannabis Then again, how do we connect our services and supports together so that we can get people into good quality treatment? And as they're exiting, how do we get them to exit into healthy recovery ecosystems where they can build that recovery capital and really get momentum recovery and start carrying that message?

Angela Kennecke: 28:01

Well, and Minnesota has a chance to be the blueprint, the leader in this area for the rest of the nation, right?

Jeremy Drucker: 28:09

certainly think we have a lot of good things going on here. And never gonna say that we're the best because, you know, there's a lot of good things happening other places, but I'm really proud of the things that we've done under the governor's leadership and we can ever be of assistance to another state, we certainly want to do that as well.

Angela Kennecke: 28:24

Yeah. Well, best of luck to you and all of this that you're taking on. It is a lot. But I know you've got a lot of people also that you're working with a lot of different organizations and, and people within government as well. So it's just been really interesting to talk to you about this subject and I really appreciate you coming on the program today.

Jeremy Drucker: 28:42

You bet. Anytime. And thank you so much for the opportunity. This has been great.

Angela Kennecke: 28:45

And thank you for listening to this episode of Grieving Out Loud. To hear more episodes, check out my blog, and read the latest news headlines surrounding substance use disorder and the opioid epidemic, go to our website, emilyshope. charity. There you'll find resources for help for you or a loved one who is struggling with addiction. Thanks again for listening until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Wonnenberg King and Marley Miller.