Angela Kennecke: 0:07

Nearly 49 million Americans, or about 17 percent of the population, are battling addiction, according to the latest National Survey on Drug Use and Health. Now imagine 10 of your closest friends. Nearly two of them may be quietly fighting this battle. Yet addiction remains a silent struggle, largely due to the heavy stigma surrounding it.

Gary Carter: 0:33

The stigma is definitely strong. Like I said, until the last year of my son's life, I didn't understand, you know, what the addiction was really all about. It took me that long, sadly, to then realize that he had to be stronger than I ever had to be just to get another day.

Jazmin Pedroza: 0:48

I was just scared to get help. I was scared because, you know, like family members would scare me. Oh, they had their baby taken away and they went to jail, you know, because they're using and I'm just like, Oh my God, like what am I doing?

Angela Kennecke: 1:03

Whether it's the person battling substance use disorder or their loved ones, the weight of stigma and shame often keeps them from seeking help or opening up about their struggles.

Michele Hein: 1:15

We thought he would make it through because he did everything he set his mind to. So unfortunately, we did not share this with many people. We kept it close to home because we had hoped that we would never have to share that.

Angela Kennecke: 1:30

But now, Michelle Hine isn't just sharing her son's battle with addiction with close friends and family. She's speaking up publicly to anyone who will listen. In today's episode of Grieving Out Loud, hear her heartfelt plea to others facing the same fight. Grieving Out Loud is a production of WGBH. Well, Michelle, I just want to say it is great to see you again. I met you at an event in Minneapolis, and also we attended a DEA family summit together. I feel like, All of us moms, we kind of have this bond and we know each other almost immediately, right?

Michele Hein: 2:12

We do. Thank you for having me, Angela. It was such a pleasure to finally meet you because I'd heard so much about you and all the great work you're doing and honored Emily and all of our loved ones, so thank you.

Angela Kennecke: 2:23

Yeah, well, thank you. I mean, we're in this fight together. Sadly, you joined it a couple of years after me. I wish I could have prevented what happened to your son. I wanted to prevent it from happening to anybody else's children. That's still my goal, but sadly it continues to happen. Can we just talk a little bit about your son, Tyler, who he was and what was happening with him?

Michele Hein: 2:46

Yeah. Tyler was born in St. Paul, Minnesota. He grew up on a river town in Stillwater, Minnesota. That's where we raised him and Alex, our daughter. I love Stillwater. Oh, it's a lovely town. Yeah. And my husband was born and raised there too, as well.

Angela Kennecke: 3:09

Michelle says her son overall excelled during his teen years, becoming a three sport athlete and playing upright bass in concert orchestra. But around that same time, Tyler also began experimenting with drugs.

Michele Hein: 3:27

He did start smoking pot in high school, and actually it might have been even in middle school. And we, you know, we did all the things that we thought we were supposed to do, try to get him health, take him to the doctor, get him to a neurologist, a psychologist, a psychiatrist, and all the things that we try to do when we're trying to keep our children safe.

Angela Kennecke: 3:53

Michelle, let me ask you, it's not like you condoned the pot smoking or the marijuana smoking. Absolutely not. Because the same thing happened with Emily. She started with marijuana in high school. Especially with a boyfriend, it escalated after she met this guy who was dealing marijuana. And I was so vehemently opposed to it because I could only see, I mean, I think some parents are kind of tolerant of it as it's legal now in so many states and all of this, but I just thought I could only see this ending in pain. Like this is just going to cause problems for you and for your brain, which we know it does for the developing brain. Right.

Michele Hein: 4:27

Yeah. No, we did not condone it. And so I was constantly, no, no, no, no, but he was a headstrong guy and he hid things really well. He could hide things, but then I'd ask him questions about things that you think most kids would lie about. He'd tell me the truth. Ah. Tyler could do anything he set his mind to. And he did do everything he set his mind to. He became a U. S. Marine after high school. He was an avid outdoorsman, hunting and fishing with his dad. friends and me becoming a yoga instructor. He was in the middle of like a 200 hour training to be a yoga teacher. So we thought he would make it through because he did everything he set his mind to. So unfortunately, we did not share this with many people. We kept it close to home because we had hope that we would never have to share that.

Angela Kennecke: 5:20

And also it's not something you really want to go around telling other parents. Oh, my kid is smoking marijuana and I'm trying to get him to stop. And when you look back at this now, do you see a correlation between the early marijuana use and what ultimately happened?

Michele Hein: 5:34

Only reason now that I do is because Tyler told me marijuana and alcohol were his gateway drugs. So if you tell me that, you know, legal marijuana and legal booze are not gateway drugs, you're never going to convince me otherwise, because that's what he told me they were.

Angela Kennecke: 5:53

for him. And we know with the developing brain that kids who smoke marijuana are 15 times more likely to suffer from substance use disorder and with alcohol. It's about nine times more likely. So we know. that any kind of mind altering drug is not for the developing brain. To make matters worse, Tyler suffered several accidents that led to opioid prescriptions, including a skateboarding incident where he broke his femur and his tibia.

Michele Hein: 6:28

And I believe when they discharged him from the hospital, they gave him four pills. And then he took to the streets. I'm assuming. We never discussed how he ended up in such a really dark and terrible place. But that last accident is when I saw him do a deep dive down the rabbit.

Angela Kennecke: 6:53

During that time, Tyler was living with his parents. Michelle started to suspect something may be going wrong with her son.

Michele Hein: 7:02

But then you just wonder, is it just him? Is he eating wrong? You know, cause he'd be sick to his stomach for days on end. And that was probably when he was trying to not do it. And then he'd find it again, and he'd be fine, and he'd be up, and then he'd be down, and then he'd be up, and then his friend group changed his block. It is

Angela Kennecke: 7:20

really hard as a family member, especially if you're not being given the complete picture of everything that's going on, to really know what's going on with your adult child, and I think often we also, we want to think everything's going to be okay, right? We believe truly

Michele Hein: 7:35

that it would be because he could do anything that he set his mind to. And he did. And he always had. Well, he's not. He always had in the past. And so that, boy, you know, if I could tell anybody now, don't assume that by any stretch of the imagination. And you can only control a 23 year old and a 22 year old and a 21 year old so much. Right. And he was doing the things. He was going to work and coming home and being present with our family and doing stuff and always around and bringing his friends here. I think

Angela Kennecke: 8:07

that this problem of substance use. is so much bigger than us. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think we think as parents, we should be able to somehow spot something or control something when it is so much bigger than we are, and it is so out of our control.

Michele Hein: 8:23

I did not know that before. I just did not know what I know today, and sure you didn't either, and I hadn't heard the word fentanyl until seven months before he died. What was the context when you heard the word fentanyl? He had overdosed a couple of times and been revived by Narcan. So, I had never heard the word Narcan until seven months before he died. So, I wish that was a household word. I wish everyone knew what illicit fentanyl is and does.

Angela Kennecke: 8:58

So, when you heard that he had overdosed, alarm bells must have gone off then at that point.

Michele Hein: 9:04

They did, and that was in January of 2020. I got a bill for an ambulance ride.

Angela Kennecke: 9:10

Oh, so you didn't even

Michele Hein: 9:12

know that he'd been hospitalized? Nope. Oh wow. So I called him and I said, Tyler, I left him a message. He was at work. I said, I have a bill here for an A ambulance ride. I think we need to talk. And he called me back after work and he said, yep, we do. And he told me work happened and that he was revived on the street in his truck by a St. Paul police officer. Narcan and they took him to a hospital and I was never the wise.

Angela Kennecke: 9:41

Wow. And I think that is the case. I had sat through some drug trials of some dealers where people were testifying against them, talked about being hospitalized for overdose, and their parents were, you know, listening to the trial and they had no idea these were adult children and no idea that their loved one had been hospitalized after an overdose.

Michele Hein: 10:00

That's right.

Angela Kennecke: 10:08

Michelle and her husband grew even more concerned in March of 2020. When Tyler suffered another overdose, they urged him to seek help and immediately tried to convince him to enter a treatment facility.

Michele Hein: 10:23

My husband slept on the floor right next to his bed for 10 days until we could get him into treatment or until he would agree to go to treatment. Didn't leave his side. And he agreed to go to treatment? He did. Went in. It was now March of 2020. The Kapow booth.

Angela Kennecke: 10:39

Uh huh.

Michele Hein: 10:40

that COVID is hitting. He did great. Call us once a week, video chat. His eyes were clear. He's, you just, you saw him coming back slowly, but surely. And 18 days, then he called and said, I'm gonna, I'm gonna come home. Can I come home? If I check myself out, can I come home, right? Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait. Counselors advised against it. We advised against it. We knew it wasn't long enough. And he said, well, I'm checking myself out. So am I coming home or do you want me to go somewhere else? And we let him come home, sat down, talked about what needed to happen, his ongoing meetings in the evenings. Why did he want to leave the treatment center? He said because he didn't see anybody. He saw a nurse a day and his roommate and everything else was via video.

Angela Kennecke: 11:31

Because of COVID. So he didn't really feel like he was getting that personal interaction. He would just rather come home. Another choice Tyler made was refusing medically assisted treatment such as Suboxone. Research shows that MAT can greatly improve a patient's chances of sticking with treatment. So

Michele Hein: 12:02

he was offered it and he didn't want to take it because he was going to be completely off drugs, then you can't make him take it. I had a meeting last week with Dr. Joseph Lee from Hazelden, and he was not in charge of Hazelden when Tyler was there, but he assured me that Tyler was encouraged heavily. to take some Oxone. The success rate is so much better without the Yeah, and if you don't take it, you know, your chance of

Angela Kennecke: 12:33

death goes up

Michele Hein: 12:34

exponentially. And that either. I didn't know that. No,

Angela Kennecke: 12:37

of course you wouldn't have known it.

Michele Hein: 12:38

You know, and all the doctors and neurologists and psychologists and psychiatrists and everybody we took him to, so many people just told us, well, you have an angry young man. Well, he was faking all that. He wasn't always angry. He just knew how to play it and how to just let people let him walk out the door. So when he gets to Hinselden, they finally He sits down on the couch one evening after he had come home and said, They have diagnosed me manic bipolar. Finally! But Ty, you wouldn't take any medication for that? Nope, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be drug free. I don't know if that's part of his marine training. They can just do it all, they're tough and they, I, I don't know.

Angela Kennecke: 13:23

Yeah, and we need to start changing attitudes, obviously, about, you know, when there's a need for the medication, whether it to be free of opioids or whether it for mental health issues, we need to really start changing people's attitudes about that, that sometimes they're very necessary. Despite not taking MAT and leaving the treatment facility, Michelle says her son did well for three months, going to virtual meetings four nights a week. And then what happened?

Michele Hein: 13:54

During that time, his dealer friend was reaching out to him, telling him he had pills and would he like to buy some? He had Percs and Oxys and whatever else they call them. And 11, 12 times in, he said, sure, and he got on his motorcycle after a yoga training session one Friday night. Bought one pill. And took it at some point between the time he got home and the time he was found in the basement of our home at 1230 on July 18th, 2020.

Angela Kennecke: 14:26

He purchased one pill. One

Michele Hein: 14:28

pill for 20. And was it 100 percent fentanyl? Yes, ma'am. And who found him? We had our neighbors come over because we couldn't get a hold of him. Because we weren't here, we were up at our cabin. Oh, you weren't at home at the time. He was in your house, but you weren't at home. Correct. He was the only one here? Yes, ma'am. I ran into a police officer that was on the scene just a few weeks ago, and he said, I would like to introduce myself and tell you that one observation I had because I go out and speak in our community here much like you do. So he came up and approached me and he said, I wanted you to know that the scene that we arrived upon was not normal for an overdose. We walked in and everything was tidy. There was a yoga mat with all of his like, art materials and hiking boots and clothes folded and laid out on it. Washing machine and the dryer were running. There was music on. There was lighting. And Tyler was just sitting on the couch. He said, it's just so shocking that we're starting to see those types of environments that you walk into more and more frequently. Right. Well, just one pill and that is

Angela Kennecke: 15:43

all it truly takes. Right. What happened to the person who sold the pill to him and who had continually contacted him about buying the pills?

Michele Hein: 15:51

We had phenomenal prosecutors and detectives here in our county and they were relentless. They never, ever gave up. And the man is serving 86 months in prison. He's halfway through his two thirds sentence. So in Minnesota, they only need to serve two thirds in custody, and then they serve a third supervised release. He's halfway through his in custody. sentence, but I did receive a letter in the mail the other day that he has been approved for work release. Do you know,

Angela Kennecke: 16:25

Michelle, has anybody else died because of his dealing of these fentanyl pills? I do not know that. You don't know. That's all I can say. But he was charged in connection with your son's death and was sentenced, which is a real victory in and of itself. You and I know that it doesn't happen very often.

Michele Hein: 16:45

It's a victory, but there's another mom crying herself to sleep every night now, too.

Angela Kennecke: 16:51

Right. It's just sad for everybody involved.

Michele Hein: 16:54

And it's a victory because he is potentially getting sober and he can potentially get out and live a good life. And he'll have his baby and he'll have his baby mama and he'll have his mom and his grandma and his sister of his beautiful sister and be a productive member of society. So for right now, it is a victory because he can get sober and he can't sell these poisonous pills to anyone else.

Angela Kennecke: 17:20

And I wish we could just get Americans to stop selling these pills to other Americans. If we could just halt that, I mean, think of where we would be.

Michele Hein: 17:29

Greed and money are the ultimate evil.

Angela Kennecke: 17:33

And also people suffering from substance use disorder. I don't know if this guy was eating his own. Yes, he did. Disease. We know that happens as well. And there's different levels, right, of these dealers. Some are doing that and some are not. And I saw that in my own communities, the dealers who were feeding their own horrible addictions. Absolutely. Helping out their friends by getting them these pills or substances and then the ones who were just selling it out of greed and never using.

Michele Hein: 18:00

And Jamie, I heard the other day in that episode, Tyler spent 20 on a pill in July of 2020. And I heard that on the streets of Minneapolis today, they're going for 2 to 4 each. Oh my God.

Angela Kennecke: 18:13

Yeah.

Michele Hein: 18:13

Accessible to everybody. And they're still making billions.

Angela Kennecke: 18:20

Have you lost a loved one to overdose or fentanyl poisoning? I'd like to invite you to share their story on our new Emily's Hope Memorial website called More Than Just a Number. They were our children, siblings, cousins, husbands, wives, uncles, and friends. So much more than just a number. You can submit a memorial today on MoreThanJustANumber. org. After her son's death, Michelle knew she couldn't keep quiet about Tyler's struggles anymore. She began speaking out, not just with friends and family, but publicly and through the media about substance use disorder and the danger of fentanyl poisoning.

Michele Hein: 19:13

My daughter, Alex and Jerry, my husband and I said right away, we're not going to hide this anymore. And we have to be honest and open about what happened because this is a real threat in our world.

Angela Kennecke: 19:24

Yeah. Why do you think that is? Because I'm curious, because you and I are obviously like minded. Yeah. We're not

Michele Hein: 19:28

curl up in the corner type people. What is the other option? I mean, that's where it would go. Where you just walk around like a zombie, not knowing what to do. You have to put something into action. And I truly don't want other people to go through this. It doesn't matter how a child dies, but many of these deaths, unless they are out seeking fentanyl because they have a fentanyl addiction, they're being deceived to death.

Angela Kennecke: 19:55

It's poisoning. It's poisoning.

Michele Hein: 19:57

I want to stop all people from dying from fentanyl, no matter what their situation. But I feel like with our organization, we can go out and we can maybe get to those that are not currently in substance use disorder and get them to think twice. Well, that's the key, prevention.

Angela Kennecke: 20:24

After speaking publicly about her son's death, Michelle caught the attention of an assistant county attorney in Minnesota who prosecuted major drug trafficking cases. Together, they teamed up to co found an organization called Fentanyl Free Communities.

Michele Hein: 20:42

He called me in the beginning of last year in January and said, I'm Paul Ostrow, and I'm looking to do something around preventing fentanyl deaths, because I have prosecuted so many cases, and I watched so many families destruct, and I want to do something about it, and that's what I want to do in retirement, so I wanted to talk to you because I saw you in the paper, and I saw what you're doing at the Capitol, and yadda yadda. And so we met and the rest is history, we just immediately were able to put a board of directors together that were very powerful people in our community, most of them retired from their professional positions, along with grieving parents who wanted to do something as well, and the community activists. And we put together the Fentanyl Free Community so we keep on educate, raise awareness.

Angela Kennecke: 21:35

In addition to raising awareness about the dangers of fentanyl, Michelle's organization has been actively working to change Minnesota laws by engaging with state legislators.

Michele Hein: 21:47

Many many organizations and legislators had been working for years trying to get fentanyl to be equal that of heroin for penalties because you could carry more. For more Fentanyl, then heroin and get lesser of a penalty, right, if you're possessing or distributing. So we wanted to help change some of those laws. We wanted to help with the NARCAN laws. We wanted law enforcement to have support and prosecutors. We wanted to know what prosecutors need to actually prosecute, successfully prosecute these cases. Because as you know, they're very, very hard to prosecute if it even gets to that point. I think it's going to take all

Angela Kennecke: 22:25

of us in our communities and beyond, all of us who are doing this kind of advocacy work to really make a dent and turn this horrible epidemic around. We saw a slight decrease in deaths last year in 2023, mostly because of Naloxone or Narcan distribution. We need to see that number continue to go down, but it's not just one group or one person or one family. It's going to take everybody.

Michele Hein: 22:51

You know what enrages me though? Why is it up to us? Because it always is. Because it's always up to the people impacted. And they realize that now and it makes them sick.

Angela Kennecke: 23:02

Yeah. People kind of, I think, live in their own little worlds and politicians are politicians and they also are called in many different directions. I think it's hard for people to really focus on one crisis these days, don't you think?

Michele Hein: 23:16

There are so many. I know.

Angela Kennecke: 23:18

So much going on. And I've met some other moms that have joined your organization that volunteer with you. Has that camaraderie helped you? It

Michele Hein: 23:27

sure has, but we say it all the time, we'd give each other all back. Yes,

Angela Kennecke: 23:32

of course.

Michele Hein: 23:32

To the universe, if we could just Have

Angela Kennecke: 23:35

our

Michele Hein: 23:35

kids back. Not be here and have our kids back.

Angela Kennecke: 23:38

Yes.

Michele Hein: 23:39

But yeah, I couldn't get through without them. Because they're the only ones that really understand. Right? Right. I

Angela Kennecke: 23:46

mean,

Michele Hein: 23:47

husband tries to, daughter tries to, they have their own thing going on in their heads with their relationships with Tyler, but I'm the mom.

Angela Kennecke: 23:59

Right. The depths of grief for mothers, I don't know that anybody else can go there other than another mother. Yeah. Right. Not to say anyone's pain is more profound than another's, it's just different. It is.

Michele Hein: 24:11

It is. And we do have, we talk with these moms, we talk a lot about sibling loss Because we know that, you know, it's how's mom doing, how's mom doing, and maybe how's dad doing, but how's Alex doing, or how's so and so doing? Like, they don't really ask that, but she's in as much pain

Angela Kennecke: 24:29

as I am. Right, right. And I think siblings, they want to go on with their lives. They want to have their rich and full lives. But yet, there is this thing that happened in their families. And they are missing that sibling. And I've been wanting to do a podcast. I just need to do it with my own kids to talk about that and maybe talk to an expert, just how much siblings are impacted. I think of this, like your Tyler, my Emily, these one lives, but the ripple effect of the loss of that one life and how many people it impacts, and I think. It's just something that shouldn't be happening times 107, 500 and however many, you know, deaths there were in one year. When you think about that ripple effect, I think about the impact and how far reaching it is.

Michele Hein: 25:19

And some of those are moms and dads and the children are left behind. And then I think about the grandparents. You know how hard it is for my mom to grieve her grandson and watch me grieve and watch her granddaughter grieve and watch, like, That's a whole different aspect of grief. It's, it's horrible. Right. So we just have to keep doing these things and working together and banding together like we do. But I'd like to see some movement somewhere at some time. Like, I feel like we're all get together and it's great seeing everyone. And we, you know, go to these summits and these meetings and it's like, okay, now what?

Angela Kennecke: 26:00

Now what? Where is the real change? And so what do you think needs to happen for that real change?

Michele Hein: 26:06

It really needs to start with our government treating the fentanyl epidemic like the national crisis it is.

Angela Kennecke: 26:17

Public health emergency. It

Michele Hein: 26:18

is a public health emergency. They need to go to the source. And I know the DEA is doing What they can, and they're doing some really good things, but I think it's going to take more than that. I think our government needs to get involved. And I don't know what that means. I'm not a government person. I, I just think that they've been able to tackle many things over the years, successfully, and I think they need to tackle this.

Angela Kennecke: 26:48

And what always strikes me so much is how unnecessary the deaths of our children are. Prevent? Yeah, it didn't have to happen. They didn't have to die because they chose to use a substance that they didn't know, you know, had fentanyl in it.

Jazmin Pedroza: 27:02

Right.

Angela Kennecke: 27:03

Now, you have people addicted to fentanyl and seeking that out and it's just, It's just a game of Russian roulette. It's just a matter of when, right? And I just think that this is so unnecessary, all of it. And

Michele Hein: 27:16

preventable. And preventable. I really do believe it's preventable. I do too. Especially if we didn't allow it into our country in the first place.

Angela Kennecke: 27:24

Yeah, not allow it into our country, not allow Americans to sell it to other Americans and to traffic it. And to teach children, I think also at a very young age, that's one thing we're trying to do at Emily's Hope, just to protect themselves, because everybody has to protect themselves. It is really a war out there. There are casualties.

Michele Hein: 27:42

We need to get away from the pill popping society mentality. And that's going to be really hot because we've been saying it's okay to pop pills, you know, take a pill for any ailment for decades.

Angela Kennecke: 27:56

Right. Right. And kids are very comfortable with pills because they've been given a lot of pills during their lifetime. Right. Right. So just changing our, our entire culture, our entire culture was sort of set up. It's like the perfect storm between opioid crisis. I talk about that a lot. You know how all this started, how people got addicted, how the street drugs came about, now the fentanyl and why it's so powerful and why it's here. And it's just this huge, perfect storm that brewed in this country that's still going strong. But many people would just like to not really have to think about if it doesn't affect them personally. It's

Michele Hein: 28:33

almost like, so we use social media a lot to get our message out because it's cheap, right? You can hit a lot of people. It's powerful. But if you look at the engagements with my fentanyl posts versus the engagements with my grandchildren posts, and I get it, grandchildren are a lot more fun than fentanyl and people, I think, feel like if they engage, they're going to manifest or maybe they're so social media smart, they understand if they engage, they're going to start seeing that on their feed and they don't want it. And I get that. But it blows my mind every time I see fewer engagements on important fentanyl posts, I step back and I say a quick prayer that they read it and they heard it and they listened and they shared. And then I don't care if they didn't engage because that's really what it's about.

Angela Kennecke: 29:19

I think part of the problem is that when you use the term fentanyl or any kind of drug terms, sometimes it gets kicked out of the algorithm. So sometimes it's not getting before eyeballs. We even found with Google ads, you know, we're trying to prevent, we're trying to offer people help, but it'll get banned or kicked out because of the language that's being used.

Michele Hein: 29:40

But then the ones that are engaging. When they do see that they engage with them, they see it more frequently because it's always the same people. I just assumed it was because people knew more than I know about social media and that when you start engaging with something, you're going to see it more and they don't want to see it. You know, and it's not that they don't feel bad for us and they care about what happened to our children and they don't want it to happen to other people. It's just that they have enough negative in their lives and coming at them all the time. But this is not really a negative. This is this is something you need to know and you need to share it. So we say it wise. And every kid needs to know.

Angela Kennecke: 30:15

Every kid needs to know. At

Michele Hein: 30:16

a very young age.

Angela Kennecke: 30:25

To raise awareness and save lives, Fentanyl Free Communities is putting together a policy plan for the 2025 Minnesota legislative session. The group is also meeting with law enforcement across the state to understand what they're seeing with fentanyl on the ground. So

Michele Hein: 30:44

when we go out and talk, we can talk intelligently. We're putting together a speaker's bureau that we can go out and do speaking engagements for organizations throughout the fall. Based on the DEA's One Pill Can Kill, we'll be putting together a public forum that we're going to do this fall up here, actually, in my county, in Chisago County, very hard hit up here as well, and it's actually the median age of the people dying from fentanyl up here is higher than 35. Oh. So, the local sheriff and I, he was reading some stats to me one day that I had requested from him, and we both went, wait, what? I thought it was 1835 or whatever, but it was, uh, it was a very interesting because then that's important to know, right? Yes, we still need to get to you, but We better figure out a way to get the message to people that are over 50. Yeah, to everybody.

Angela Kennecke: 31:43

Fentanyl free communities is still making teens a big priority through its new PAWS communications program. Why is it named PAWS? It targets the PAWS. That split second when a young person may stop and think before trying an illicit substance. They're also betting that teens are more likely to listen if the message comes from other teens, especially through social media. That's why they're recruiting influencers.

Michele Hein: 32:14

And they're not the social media influencers of one million followers. We're finding local people that have been impacted who are on social media and who want to help make a difference. Well, that's great. And we feel like there are people are going to listen to them. And we've also enlisted the Bridgemakers, who are a youth led group here in Minneapolis, who are young entrepreneurs that are here to change lives for the better of young people in their neighborhood. So we've enlisted them to help as well. They're a great

Angela Kennecke: 32:45

group of people. Well, that's great. I think the more partnerships that we can form, With other organizations, the better, the more that we can work together, especially when it comes to anything mental health and or substance use disorder, just we have to partner together to get the word out. And I love everything that you're doing. It's been such a pleasure to get to know you the last couple of months.

Michele Hein: 33:06

Yeah, and it's been so nice to

Angela Kennecke: 33:08

get to know you as well. And your daughter. Yeah, she helps with Emily's hope as well. That's awesome. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I'm so sorry for the loss of Tyler, but I'm so grateful for all the work that you're doing.

Michele Hein: 33:21

Insane here. We are so grateful we met you and always think of Emily, him, Tyler, and all those that have gone before us and we will meet again. And while we're here on earth, we have to do the work and try to make sure people are safe and understand what the, what the real dangers are of this wobble germ. So thanks for what you do.

Angela Kennecke: 33:43

You too. And thank you for taking the time to learn about one of the biggest crises facing our nation, the fentanyl epidemic. For more episodes, to read my blog, and get the latest news on substance use disorder and the opioid crisis, just visit our website, emilyshope. charity. We'd also love it if you subscribed. If you'd leave us a five star review on this podcast until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Wannenberg King and Kaylee Fitz.