Angela Kennecke: 0:07

Grief, a powerful, painful emotion that most of us will experience. The waves of sadness, anger, shock, and numbness can feel overwhelming, sometimes even breaking us down physically. Yet, despite its reach, grief is often met with silence. We shy away from talking about it openly, as if sharing our pain is too much to bear. too much to ask of others, but grief

Nicola Marshall: 0:36

deserves a voice. People don't like to talk about, and I think it's really important that we get comfortable talking about death and loss and grief because it's part of living. Yes. You know, without death you don't have life, and without life you don't have death.

Angela Kennecke: 0:53

Today's guest on Grieving Out Loud understands the depths of grief all too well. Nicola Marshall's world was shattered by sudden, heartbreaking loss that made headlines around the world. Yet, even in the face of unimaginable pain, she found a path forward, one careful step at a time. Now, she's dedicating her life to understanding grief and supporting others through their own journeys, offering hope when it feels the hardest to find. I

Nicola Marshall: 1:24

think it's really important that we remember our loved ones and we feel comfortable talking about them.

Angela Kennecke: 1:39

Well, Nicola, it is so fantastic to see you again. We met in David Kessler's grief educator training. We both went through that program. I did it because I lead support groups for Emily's Hope and you did it because you also help people.

Nicola Marshall: 1:53

Yeah, it's so lovely to see you, Angela. Thank you so much for inviting me on. Yes, because I have a meet and grief cafe, which I have once a month and I'm also a hypnotherapist and grief coach. Yeah. Yeah. What is a meat and grief? A meat and grief cafe. So that's what I called it. And basically it's just a safe space where people come and talk about their grief and how, you know, it takes you to places you possibly don't want to be, places you don't expect to be, where you can talk openly and honestly without people going, Oh, here she goes again, you know, because sometimes when we're in grief, you kind of get that feeling that sometimes people don't really want. To hear about it again, or am I talking too much about my loved one? So yeah, so it's just a safe space where people come who are grieving their loved ones and can talk about it openly and honestly.

Angela Kennecke: 2:50

I think that everyone who has experienced the devastating grief of child loss knows exactly what you're saying. When we talk about how people don't really want to hear about it anymore, and I think there are a couple things going on first I think that people don't want to think something like this can happen to them So they really don't want to think about it too much and also people in our cultures UK and United States both I know you live across the pond, but We have a similar culture and that we don't really want to be exposed to grief all the time And we want people to get over it

Nicola Marshall: 3:25

Exactly. And as we know, there's no getting over it. You know, you really do have to just work through it at your pace and take it a day at a time. And, you know, people don't like to talk about it. And I think it's really important that we get comfortable talking about death and loss and grief because it's part of living. Yes. You know, without death, you don't have life. And without life, you don't have death.

Angela Kennecke: 3:49

100 percent true. But the Horrible thing that led us both to this point where we're talking about grief, I guess we've become grief experts because we've both lived it through the loss of a child, and I am so sorry for the loss of your son, Lucas, just this whole entire story, because I know it breaks my heart and I'd like for you to share it with our listeners.

Nicola Marshall: 4:12

Yeah. Thank you so much. And again, I'm sorry about your loss of Emily. So as we know, we're members of this club. We don't want to be. And Lucas and I and his friend were on holiday. I'm a single parent. So it was just the three of us and we were in holiday in Spain and it was 2019 and it was the last day of our holiday. The night before we'd been out to a restaurant and on our way back, Lucas said to me, mum, this has been the best holiday of my life. And I said, Lucas, really? You've just been to Thailand with your dad, and you had an amazing time. He said I did. But this has been brilliant because I've done exactly what it is I want to do. I've been rollerblading every night to the skate park. So, you know, and you spent days on the beach and we just had an amazing holiday.

Angela Kennecke: 5:08

The next day, the three of them spent a beautiful morning at the beach, soaking up the sun, making memories. Then they headed back to the hotel to pack up and get ready for their trip home.

Nicola Marshall: 5:22

Our bags were packed, passports on our suitcases, and I was just making some sandwiches. Lucas was talking to me in the kitchen, and the next thing he walked into the lounge. I carried on making the sandwiches. I walked in, and his friend said, Lucas has gone over the balcony. And I said, what? And he said, Lucas has gone over the balcony. And I ran from the kitchen through the apartment. And we were on the seventh floor and I looked over and Lucas had fallen or I don't know what because I was in the kitchen off over the balcony and he was a big lad Lucas for 12, you know, he was very sporty. He loved singing, acting, all of that. And literally my whole world collapsed in that moment. I remember looking over the balcony. And there was lots of people around him because it was by the side of the pool and I ran down the seven flights of stairs because I remember thinking, I don't want to get stuck in the lift. And there was Lucas. And by this time, I mean, and it was literally a minute, a couple of minutes. There was so many police came from the beach side because we were in Spain on holiday. So many people came from the beach. There was paramedics there very quickly. I was by the side of Lucas. I'd step back, obviously, and I didn't know what was happening. All's I could see was my son was, couldn't breathe, and he was desperately trying to breathe. And then, I don't know how long it was, but not very long, my son died in front of me. And for the first time in his life, I couldn't help him.

Angela Kennecke: 7:07

Right, you were powerless to do anything.

Nicola Marshall: 7:10

I was absolutely powerless. And Lucas is my only child and he was my life. And in that moment, my, uh, whole life just collapsed. I can actually remember my brain literally going

Angela Kennecke: 7:28

like shutting

Nicola Marshall: 7:28

off, just shutting off. Yeah.

Angela Kennecke: 7:30

Right. The shock

Nicola Marshall: 7:32

completely shutting down. Yeah. I understand now it does that to protect me. I understand that. And then I remember hearing that. guttural sound that comes from El Zunwida. I don't know where that comes from your deep soul. And I remember screaming. And the last time I heard that sound is when I told my mom that my brother had died because my brother took his own life at 29. And so I never thought I'd hear that sound again. And the next thing I heard it from me. And then I lay with Lucas for about an hour and a half until they came and took him away in a body pack.

Angela Kennecke: 8:11

Horrific. Horrific. And I can relate to what you're saying that my, my daughter and I got to the apartment where she was, the paramedics were working on her. I believe she was already dead. That sound that you're talking about. I know I made that sound. I laid with my daughter until they came to take her away in a body bag as well. In my case, the police had to come to investigate the scene as I'm sure they did with you as well, but it was a different circumstance. And then when you have something so traumatic like that happened, You relive that. I mean, I don't relive it every day now. It has been six years, but I still, now when we're talking about it, you start to relive it, of course, but I just relived it in my mind over and over again, as I'm sure you did as well.

Nicola Marshall: 8:57

Yeah, you absolutely do, don't you? I can remember, actually, the police said to me, Nicola, and we're in Spain, he said, you need to come back to the apartment. I said, I don't want to leave my son. And at this point, Lucas was still alive, you know, and he was beautiful. Desperately fighting to breathe. So I remember again, going back up to the apartment, he said you have to come. Cause obviously he wanted to see what was going on. We got upstairs, I got him in the apartment, and I remember he walked in and he said, Oh my goodness Nicola, Nicola no. Cause he could see the suitcases were packed. Passports were on top, there were sandwiches half made in the kitchen, the apartment was pristine, two hours we would have been in a cab, going to the airport, and then I remember again just running down the stairs, and I got there, you know, and Lucas was still trying to breathe, and the paramedics were all around him and then, And then he died.

Angela Kennecke: 9:57

Nicola says that horrifying scene replayed in her mind every day for at least a year.

Nicola Marshall: 10:09

I could see myself from above. I could see myself from every part of me and obviously that's trauma. Watching myself run down the stairs, run to Lucas, everything. Like it was in slow motion.

Angela Kennecke: 10:21

Exactly.

Nicola Marshall: 10:22

Yeah. And that first year, I don't know about you, but I. No,

Angela Kennecke: 10:27

I have a lot of memory lapses from that first year and especially right around the time that her death happened. Also complicating both my daughter's and Nicholas son's deaths is the fact that they made headlines. In Nicola's situation, the news reached a global audience with coverage in outlets like the Daily Mail and The Guardian.

Nicola Marshall: 10:56

It was in every national newspaper. It was on the news, on the TV. I stayed in Spain for nine days because I wouldn't come home without Lucas. And I know there was reporters looking for me. Luckily, I had a friend living in Spain and he came. and got me and you know, we all went back to his villa to my friends flew out from the UK because my family wants to fly. Everybody wants to fly out and I was so well out of it. I don't remember, you know, I was like, I didn't know what was happening. I'm trying to come to terms with what's just happened. I had to go to the police station, get interviewed. Oh,

Angela Kennecke: 11:33

I suppose. Yeah, because they wanted to know what happened and were you ever able to piece together in any way why he went over the balcony?

Nicola Marshall: 11:43

I absolutely don't know. I mean, Lucas was always doing, you know, sort of balancing and he thought Lucas

Angela Kennecke: 11:49

being a 12 year old boy, you mean he was being a 12 year old boy?

Nicola Marshall: 11:52

He was being a 12 year old boy, you know, and he got to rule the world. So I was literally in the kitchen and he left the kitchen and then that was it. I never thought in that second that that would be the last time that I would be spending time with my

Angela Kennecke: 12:11

son. And death does teach us that life can change in a second and how fragile and precious it truly is.

Nicola Marshall: 12:19

Yeah, and I really do believe life is so fragile and precious and within one moment your whole life can change. So that's what I always tell people. Please live life to the fullest because you never know when it's going to change. And, and I'm not that person that I was, you know, it's five years now this month, it's five years and I'm not that person that I was, as you know, yourself five years ago. And I

Angela Kennecke: 12:46

would, I guess I changed a little bit reluctantly. I didn't want that. I didn't want this to be my story as I'm sure you felt the same way. This is not supposed to be my story. This is not supposed to be what happens in our lives. And. fighting that, then you have to accept. I think the acceptance is the part that takes so much time.

Nicola Marshall: 13:04

Yeah.

Angela Kennecke: 13:05

And then to almost, as I know, because you're talking to me today, and we're going to talk about some other things that you've done. To embrace it, actually, because in order for me to do the advocacy work that I do to try to end the fentanyl epidemic in our nation, I have to embrace it, right? And in order for you to be doing the work and talking about grief and death, you have to embrace it. And it takes some time to get

Nicola Marshall: 13:26

to

Angela Kennecke: 13:27

that point.

Nicola Marshall: 13:28

Absolutely. And as I said, that first year, I do not know, A, how I survived. Well, three days after Lucas died, I tried to take my own life because I thought, well, what's the point? Right. you know, everything I'd done was for my son. Thank goodness, of course, I'm still here because it wasn't my time. But Nicola,

Angela Kennecke: 13:48

I don't think there is a parent who has lost a child who can't relate to that sentiment or that thought. I didn't take any action, but certainly it went through my mind. I don't want to live anymore. I lost a child and you lost your only child and you're a single parent. You don't have that support of a spouse. And like you said, I can understand that's your whole world. I've talked to other parents who lost their only child. I had a woman on the podcast. Recently, who went through in vitro, was pregnant with triplets, lost two of them, gave birth to one daughter and then lost her only daughter, you know, so it's just, yeah, it's so unfair. And you just think, how can this happen? And

Nicola Marshall: 14:24

how do I go on? Exactly. And I really didn't know how I would go on. But you know what? I think it's about, again, it's finding your friends and I don't know if you've found this, but friends step up who you least expect and the friends you think would step up, they step away or they fall away because they don't really know how to deal with it. And family as well, won't talk about it or are scared to talk about it. Some of them. So yeah, that was a really tough year. And of course, I didn't have a partner, you know, who could support me. So I did rely heavily on my friends. People get on with their lives, you know, and you're left in your messy, tatty life to try and pick up the pieces and get on with it. How do you do that?

Angela Kennecke: 15:10

Life goes on, life marches forward. Yeah. But for you, for me, there is a certain part of our lives that will never move forward. Right. Because not that you're stuck in grief. I don't want to say that I'm stuck, but it's something that we always will have with us. Through her grief work, Nicola learned just how important it is to let emotions come and go as they need to, without holding back. She wants people to know it's okay if they suddenly feel overwhelmed, even if it happens in the middle of a crowd.

Nicola Marshall: 15:54

I'm sure you've done it in the supermarket. I've started clients. I've just walked out and sat in my car, got myself together for things like that.

Angela Kennecke: 16:03

I actually wrote a blog called Crying at Costco, so, because that's where I started crying because I saw a young woman who resembled my daughter walk with her parents, you know, and I just thought that I'll never have that and it's hard. Yeah. A couple of months after losing Lucas, Nicola reached out to a grief counselor. She was searching for any guidance to help her through the overwhelming pain.

Nicola Marshall: 16:39

It was too early really when I look back now, but it was, it was horrendous. I didn't feel that the counselor was very good and very supportive for me. And basically she was like, well, there's the stages of grief. Now go and get on with it.

Angela Kennecke: 16:53

That's so unfortunate. Sadly though. I mean, cause I went through, I had a good grief counselor, but when I was searching for a counselor for my daughter, when she was a teenager, we were struggling with some of her behaviors. It can be difficult to find a good counselor sometimes. You can't just go to a counselor and assume that this is going to be the right person for you. You really have to, I would say, shop around, try it out. And to someone who's grieving, maybe you don't have the bandwidth even to think, Oh gosh, this person isn't working. I have to go find someone else.

Nicola Marshall: 17:20

Yeah, exactly. So I had that bad experience and I thought, you know what, once I'm strong enough, I'm going to retrain and I'm going to become a counselor and I'm going to help as many people as I can. So I'm currently in my third year of psychotherapeutic counseling. I'm studying. I'm a hypnotherapist. I do EMDR, so it's rapid eye movements and NLP and I've retrained all of that. You know, I'm 56, so it's taking, you know, a little bit longer, and I've retrained since Lucas died because I just want to help people and that helping people has really helped me.

Angela Kennecke: 17:58

Well, we're kindred souls in that way, and I think there are many more other parents out there like us, but we have to find some kind of purpose or meaning in this. And you found it. Yeah. You had a grief counselor that wasn't so great, so you thought, I'm going to help people. I have experienced this devastation. I'm going to do it myself.

Nicola Marshall: 18:16

Yeah. So, and I absolutely love it. I love it. And I've also set up a meat and grief cafe again, because I thought, where am I going to go with this? I just create a safe space and I just put it out on my socials.

Angela Kennecke: 18:37

During these Meet and Grief cafes, Nicola rents a space where people can gather over food and openly share their experiences with grief.

Nicola Marshall: 18:51

People come from the Midlands, which is about two hours away. There's local people. It's really lovely. And it's just coffee, cake or pizza, whatever, you know, we decide that night. And it's a couple of hours where we all just talk. vent, tell, you know, kind of the things that people say to you when you're grieving and you think, really, did you just say that? And it's a safe space where people can go through all the emotions that grief brings.

Angela Kennecke: 19:24

As Nicola continued sharing her story and connecting with others, a new opportunity emerged. One with the potential to bring her message to hundreds of thousands.

Nicola Marshall: 19:38

A friend of mine introduced me to a friend of hers who had done a TED talk and I dropped her an email. It was my birthday, my last birthday. So it's in January and I was getting ready and I'm the designated driver cause I don't drink. And the girl contacted me Cordelia and she said, you've got to do a TED talk. I've read your email. I've looked at your Insta. You've got to do a TED talk. And I was like, how can I do that? There's the form. She said it closes by midnight tonight. She said they're not taking anyone else on, so you've got to fill it in. I said, I've got to be out in half an hour, fill it in. So I filled it in, quick video, filled in the form and sent it off and thought, I'll never hear from them again. And then I heard from them and then I had to do it. I had to do it. And it was one of the most amazing experiences. It was hard work. It's not easy because I'm talking about myself, my life, my son, and I had to keep Associated and disassociated. And that was really hard. So it was really difficult and you have to write a script because Ted like a script. So that was my, I think that was about my 10th rewrite. So they're all my words, all my feelings, all my emotions. And then you have to stand up and deliver it with no auto cue or anything like that. And your mind's racing. And of course, and I'm dealing with all the emotions of it. the death of my son and reliving that.

Angela Kennecke: 21:02

That alone would be difficult enough, but for Nicola, the location made it especially emotional.

Nicola Marshall: 21:10

And that stage that I got up on, the last time I was in that theater, I was watching Lucas perform. He was a singer, that's right. Yeah. And he was about to try out for The Voice, is that correct? Yeah, he was about to, the day we arrived back, he had an audition for The Voice Kids. And then he would have been going off to Holland with the school because he was in the acapella and the chamber choir and he had a band.

Angela Kennecke: 21:35

All of those lost dreams, all of that lost potential, it's lost upon loss. Here's Nicola on the TED Talk stage.

Nicola Marshall: 21:50

Having grief witnessed, it validates feelings. and eases the pain of those of us grieving. I needed a tribe. Lucas was such a kind, beautiful soul. You know, he would always make people laugh if he saw that they were down. And I was sending the most amazing man into the world. And I think that is, you know, I think, gosh, you know, he would have. brilliant things and help so many people. And I only hope now or I believe that he's helping even more from the other side.

Angela Kennecke: 22:32

So how did you get from that point of being overcome by grief to being able to go to that particular stage, which would be painful, and talk about it in the way that you did?

Nicola Marshall: 22:43

Well, it took a long time. It took five years almost to get there. And that first year, I knew that I just had to heal and let myself heal. But what was really hard, Angela, was looking back at how broken and how low and fractured I was, you know, and we do say we're not broken. We're grieving, but I literally, I didn't know how I was going to pull myself up out of that. And that was really hard where I am now to keep going back in and looking at that. That was very difficult.

Angela Kennecke: 23:20

It

Nicola Marshall: 23:20

was very

Angela Kennecke: 23:20

emotional. You did express it beautifully. Like I said, that brokenness and that devastation. I thought the language that you used and the way you said it was wonderful, but also your point about certain people falling away, people you never expected coming to support you. But the fact that you do need a tribe and the way that other cultures approach death that you addressed in this talk, I thought was so interesting and relevant because there is something about. our Western culture that we don't want to face it. We don't want to talk about it. We want to pretend like we're going to be young and alive forever. And other cultures are not like that. And you did some studying of that.

Nicola Marshall: 23:59

Yeah. Well, I actually met the Maui and healers. They were in the UK from New Zealand and I had a treatment from them and that was amazing. What kind of treatment? What was it? It was a really deep energy healing and I do energy work. You know, I'm attuned to Reiki, but it's deeper now. And when she was healing me, I felt that they dealt with a lot of unresolved childhood trauma and also ancestral trauma. And again, that sound, as she was working on me, came out of my mouth again. And I did this

Angela Kennecke: 24:31

mouth

Nicola Marshall: 24:32

scream.

Angela Kennecke: 24:33

That's so interesting though that you talk about another culture and their healing practice because I had an experience with the Native American culture in my state. We have nine reservations in the state I live in and I went to one of them to talk because they deal with fentanyl and the drug crisis like much of America, even worse. And they did a wiping of the tears ceremony with me and my husband afterwards, and I felt a sense of healing, even though I'm not part of the culture, it was their intention and how kind and beautiful it was. It was amazing. I would never have gotten anything like that from anybody else. Yeah.

Nicola Marshall: 25:11

Yeah. And I think it's really important that we do look to other cultures. Because, you know, this life that we have, it is a gift. It really is a gift, and we don't know when it's going to end. And so I do think it is about celebrating our lives. And, you know, the reason that I do what I do is because it's what Lucas would expect. You know, he would expect me, come on, mom, you know, go and help and, and all like this. It's what he would expect. So, you know, he taught me so much in his short, short amount of time that he was here.

Angela Kennecke: 25:44

So you talk about energy healing, you talk about EMDR, we've covered some of that in this podcast, that rapid eye movement therapy, and you also do hypnotherapy. Yeah. Yeah. I have not covered that with anybody,

Nicola Marshall: 25:57

you know, I had hypnotherapy and that's how I got into it. I had hypnotherapy and it works so well for me and it's just basically a change state of awareness where we bring the subconscious mind forward. You know, you don't need to talk about past experiences. Your brain is amazingly clever and it can do the work for you. And it's just about basically getting you into a state of relaxation so that you can improve your focus and concentration. And then that's when we do the work and it's, it's quite rapid actually.

Angela Kennecke: 26:29

What did you notice when you did hypnotherapy yourself?

Nicola Marshall: 26:32

Well, I noticed that it really helped me with my grief and I was able to start to then move forward with it. And I just felt strength. I felt strength because I always say as well, when you're grieving, it's kind of like there's an umbrella and there's things like, you know, you lose your confidence, you have stress, anxiety, you can't sleep, panic attacks and things like that. And hypnotherapy helps with those things.

Angela Kennecke: 26:57

Oh yeah, I experienced those panic attacks in the weeks after Emily died, which I never had before. Have you lost a loved one to overdose or fentanyl poisoning? I'd like to invite you to share their story on our new Emily's Hope Memorial website called More Than Just a Number. They were our children, siblings, cousins, husbands, wives, aunts, uncles, friends. So much more than just a number. You can submit a memorial today on more than just a number dot org. Despite her grief work, Nicola admits that five years after her son's death, some days can still be very difficult.

Nicola Marshall: 27:52

It's a rugged, long road. path that we tread and we, we kind of get used to maneuvering our way around the obstacle. You know, the pain for me, it has softened, but it's still there. It's still there. And as I say, I can maneuver around it as I let it flow through me.

Angela Kennecke: 28:14

To prepare for hard days, Nicola makes self care a priority, especially around times like holidays and her son's birthday. When the weight of grief tends to feel heavier.

Nicola Marshall: 28:28

The body keeps score, doesn't it, as Bessel van der Koff says? And my body started to ache or something just before the 20th of August. And then it was difficult as well because all his friends are learning to drive or driving now. They've just done all their mock A levels. They're all going to the festivals after their mock A levels. You know, rugby tours. And Lucas would have been doing all of that and I see all of his friends doing this, which is so beautiful, but it's also so tough because I think Lucas should be doing that as well. But I just have to keep focused and also, as I said, self care for me is primary. You know, I really do look after myself.

Angela Kennecke: 29:08

And I think the anticipation of these anniversary dates is often much worse than the actual date itself because, you know, we're just thinking about like, Oh my gosh, I can't believe this is coming up. And. What am I supposed to do? We don't often know what to do and we don't have to do anything. But, you know, we feel sometimes we feel like we should know what to do or how to market or how we should be feeling. Or, you know, we have these crazy expectations sometimes. And I understand completely what you mean when you say you see his friends moving on to things he should have been doing. And it's the same. My daughter's friends get married. They have children, careers, and that will never happen for her. And it's that you're reminded of what you've lost when you see those things.

Nicola Marshall: 29:52

Yeah. Yeah, really. I mean, I'm lucky because Lucas's friends keep in touch with me and I see them. I just saw one this evening, but it's really difficult because I just think, you know, what a life he would have had. He would have been amazing. And that's heartbreaking. I think for all of us parents.

Angela Kennecke: 30:11

So you'll have this new certification and you'll continue to lead your grief groups. What else do you want to do with all of this work that you've been doing? Um,

Nicola Marshall: 30:21

Well, I see clients, obviously I'm building my practice up and I love it. I'm writing a book as well. Oh,

Angela Kennecke: 30:28

wonderful.

Nicola Marshall: 30:29

So, I'm excited about that. And also, I'd like to do more speaking gigs because I absolutely love speaking on stage and I feel it's really important, you know, that we get our message out there and that we don't need to be alone with our grief. And it's normal. The feelings we have, the emotions we have, the anger, the sadness, the frustration, it's normal. Right.

Angela Kennecke: 30:53

If we could just normalize grief rather than shun people who are feeling grief or make people feel like there's something wrong with them, I think that would be a huge move forward.

Nicola Marshall: 31:04

Yeah, definitely. I remember at Lucas's funeral, I stood up at the end and spoke and again, Angela, I do not know how I did that, but I, I did. And I said to everyone there, and there was just under a thousand people, you know, in the church. And I said, please, if you see me in town, please Don't cross the street. Come over to me. Give me a hug because I may really need it. And tell me a funny story about Lucas. Tell me something that I would never know about him unless you told me that story. And so people actually do do that. And I had a bench sculptured for Lucas as well. And you can see that on my Instagram, and it's in the center of town in his favorite park. And I often go and sit there, and so many people come and talk to me. And sometimes when I'm going, I'll see his friends just sat there as well, and it's so lovely. So lovely. Because

Angela Kennecke: 31:54

you want him to be remembered, you don't want your loved one to be forgotten.

Nicola Marshall: 31:57

Yeah, I think it's really important that we remember our loved ones and we feel comfortable talking about them. You know, if somebody comes up to me, they say, how are you? I say, you know what? Today's a good day. Today's a really good day. And I will tell them exactly how I feel. And if I'm feeling bad, I'll tell them. And I'll also talk about Lucas because as soon as I start talking about Lucas, then other people will talk about Lucas as well. They're kind of like, Oh, you know, it's okay to talk about him. I really encourage that.

Angela Kennecke: 32:26

Well, we have a lot of listeners, a lot of people who probably are newly grieving listening to this podcast. What advice do you have for people?

Nicola Marshall: 32:35

Well, my advice is it's okay not to be okay, and to be really kind to yourself, because what we're dealing with is, you know, something that we never expected would happen to us. So be kind to yourself.

Angela Kennecke: 32:52

That's wonderful advice, because so often I would say be gentle with yourself, be kind to yourself, because we are the harshest. on ourselves, just routinely anyway, I think in day in day out life, many of us are. And then when you feel these expectations that you're supposed to move on, get on with life and you're not able to do that, there's really nothing wrong with you. Grief doesn't have a timeline. Yeah,

Nicola Marshall: 33:16

it really doesn't. And you have to just allow it to take you where it needs you to be at that time. And at that moment, you know, and that's so, so important. important,

Angela Kennecke: 33:27

you know, in your Ted talk, you were talking about life and death and you ended with this line and I'm going to read it back to you because I thought it was really beautiful. Life doesn't just begin and end. It changes and transforms us. And I thought that that's amazing.

Nicola Marshall: 33:45

Yeah. And it really does, doesn't it? Because we are not the person that we were five, six years ago. We're not that person. You know, and it does change you because it's, it's shocking and it's something you, you don't expect your child to die. You know, you expect, we're the parent and I think, well, it's very sad. difficult, you know, to bury your child.

Angela Kennecke: 34:07

It's one of the worst things I think that can happen to a parent. So,

Nicola Marshall: 34:10

yeah,

Angela Kennecke: 34:11

I do think that we can choose also if that change in us is going to be positive or negative. Right. So that's where we have a choice. And some people don't feel like they have a choice because they're so overwhelmed by feelings of bitterness and devastation and they can't seem to pull themselves out of those feelings. Spread. Yeah. But we do ultimately have a choice of what path to take.

Nicola Marshall: 34:38

Yeah. Yeah. I remember, you know, and you've probably sat in the why me bucket as well. And I was like, why me? Why me? And then I said, you know what? Why not me? What's so special about me? What is so special about me?

Angela Kennecke: 34:51

You're saying all of my words because I have said why not me and I've said I'm not special and neither are you you know None of us are really special. Maybe we raise our kids to think they're so special that none of us are immune from loss And grief and death

Nicola Marshall: 35:07

for me personally I feel I've had many lifetimes with Lucas and I just didn't know that this side time was going to be so short But I learned so much from him. He taught me so much about him, other people, about me, and I continue to learn about other people, me, you know, and I feel for me personally, I do feel Lucas is guiding me. And again, it's what he would expect. And the times, you know, that I've fallen down, he's gone, come on, mom. You're my mom. Get up. You can do this. So I'm like, you know what, son, I can. So I do.

Angela Kennecke: 35:43

Well, thank you for doing it. I know you're helping a lot of people and that's so important. And I always say I would go through all of the devastation as bad as it is and can continue to be. I will go through all of it again to have the 21 years I had with my daughter. You know, it's not lost on me that I had additional years with my child that you didn't get with yours and I'm sorry for that, but I'm sure you feel the same way, that you would always want to have him.

Nicola Marshall: 36:13

Yeah, absolutely.

Angela Kennecke: 36:14

Yeah.

Nicola Marshall: 36:14

Always. And you know what? I always say that we have to remember our children chose us. We didn't choose them. They chose us and they choose us to teach us and I think it's really important to listen and to understand and to give your child. That time and that space to let them tell you what it is they want to tell you and want to teach you,

Angela Kennecke: 36:37

right? If we can be open to our children teaching us not every parent can be right because we're supposed to be the teachers But I agree with what you're saying that our children can teach us a lot and certainly all of my children have taught me a lot Not just Emily, but all of my kids and I really appreciate everything that you're doing to help others I think it's a very noble thing to do That you're doing, and I know it helps you. I get it. But I do think not everybody could do that. And thank you for what you're doing. And I look forward to that book when it comes out, to hearing you speak more. We're going to share, like I said, your TEDx talk with our listeners.

Nicola Marshall: 37:12

Thank you so much. And thank you so much, Angela, for all the work that you do. You know, to bringing to light the problems with addiction and fentanyl and everything that's going on over there. I really send my love and strength to all of you and all your listeners.

Angela Kennecke: 37:26

Yes, I know Europe has not been hit as hard. I've talked to people in Europe and I hope it continues to stay that way, but I'm afraid it may not. Yeah. But we do have a big problem in the United States that well every day chipping away at, so the latest numbers that I just heard from the White House are that overdose death are down in the last 12 months by. Nearly eight percent. So I'll take that as a light, you know,

Nicola Marshall: 37:49

yeah.

Angela Kennecke: 37:50

Well, you're doing amazing work Thank you. And I you make me wish I could have known Lucas and again I'm horribly sorry for what you've been through and I'm so grateful for the work that you do Thank you.

Nicola Marshall: 38:01

And you know, of course, I'd want Lucas to be here, but you know because of everything that's happened I'm now doing All these things, amazing things, and I have found purpose through my pain.

Angela Kennecke: 38:13

Yes. Well, thank you.

Nicola Marshall: 38:16

Thank you so much, Angela.

Angela Kennecke: 38:18

And thank you for listening to this episode of Grieving Out Loud. You can find a link to Nicola's TED Talk in the show notes of this episode. While you're there, we'd appreciate it if you took a moment to rate and review this podcast, along with sharing it with your friends and family. Thank you so much. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Kasey Wannenberg King and Kaylee Fitz.