Angela Kennecke: 0:07

I'm Angela Kenecke, and this is Grieving Out Loud. Chances are you or someone close to you is facing the battle of addiction. It's something we don't talk about enough, even though it does affect so many people. In fact, nearly 49 million Americans, nearly 17 percent of the country, are struggling with substance use disorder, according to the latest national survey on drug use. So why are we so quiet about it? A big part of it is the shame and stigma that surrounds addiction. Sadly, that silence often stops people from reaching out to get the help they desperately need. My

Crissy Cavallo: 0:47

colleagues would be like, you can't give her money. You can't go to her every time she comes. And at first, like, it was such a cycle of shame for me. And so now when I work with people, that's one of the biggest areas I work on with family members and saying that To call somebody codependent and especially a family member in crisis is the most shaming, horrible, unethical thing you can really do.

Angela Kennecke: 1:14

Today on Grieving Out Loud, a father and daughter bravely open up about their family's painful battle with substance use disorder. Through their raw and honest story, they hope to decrease the stigma and shed light on the struggles so many families face.

Crissy Cavallo: 1:31

She loved working and she loved making this business successful. When they sold their business, she didn't know what to do. That was a big part of her identity.

Chris Cavallo: 1:42

lived for a period of time under a bridge that Chrissy and I would go over on a daily basis thinking we know that she's probably beneath that bridge.

Angela Kennecke: 1:55

If you or someone you know is struggling, please don't wait to seek help. I know all too well delaying the difference between life and death. Visit our website emilyshope. charity for a list of resources that could make all the difference. Today, I'd like to welcome father and daughter, Chris and Christina Cavallo to Grieving Out Loud. They have quite the story to share, and I think all of our listeners are going to find it informative, fascinating. It's also very tragic, but what you've done with the losses in your lives has been amazing. So thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you for having us. You're so welcome. I wonder, Chris, if we can start with you from the beginning with your wife, Robin.

Chris Cavallo: 2:53

Robin and I actually met in 1975. We were both active addiction.

Angela Kennecke: 3:06

Chris says he and his wife tried several times to quit using drugs, but they struggled to find recovery. In 1979, despite their challenges, Robin gave birth to their twin daughters, Christina and Stephanie. A

Chris Cavallo: 3:21

lot of mistakes, a lot of neglect. I was not happy, period, for the first few years, for the girls.

Crissy Cavallo: 3:31

I don't have a lot of memories, um, as a child, except for this one very distinct memory, which my sister and I talked about a lot as adults, which was our parents leaving us at a babysitter's house, and just her being a very abusive woman. Um, And us waiting for my nana, who was my mom's mom, to realize that we weren't home, you know, and she would actually know and she would come get us. So, it's not that I really remember the chaos of the everyday life, but that memory is very pronounced.

Angela Kennecke: 4:13

Thankfully, Chris and Robin both found recovery in 1984, five years after the twins were born. A

Chris Cavallo: 4:20

few years in and out of recovery meetings, detoxes, treatment facilities. And then finally, one day, I looked in the mirror, I weighed about 115 pounds. Right now I'm about 168 pounds. And I looked and I said, Robin, I'm dying. And I could see the blackness. My face and my

Angela Kennecke: 4:46

eyes. Chris says another key person who helped the couple find recovery was Robin's boss at the time. Listen to the simple way he made an impact. It really shows you never know how much of an impact you can have on someone.

Chris Cavallo: 5:03

Her boss had actually given her a card, put it on her desk for a treatment facility. And of course Robin was like, why are you giving me this? I don't do drugs and I don't, maybe drink a little. But we called that card and that led us to long term recovery. What were your substances of choice at the time? Cocaine, Quaaludes, a lot of opioids. But it was a lot different 40 years ago than tonight. We definitely would have been dead many times over. Well, we were using how we were using. So, yeah, we were lucky that we made it as far as we did.

Angela Kennecke: 5:49

I always say that people used to get second, third, fourth chances back 20, 30, 40 years ago until fentanyl really arrived on the scene, and now we have even stronger opioid analogs than fentanyl. After they both went into recovery, the husband and wife decided to start a business together, an investigative agency. That.

Chris Cavallo: 6:15

Business allowed us to have a great life for us and for the girls. Everything was about recovery. Every day a meeting. The girls never sure alcohol in our house. So it was a good life, really good life

Crissy Cavallo: 6:30

in

Chris Cavallo: 6:31

recovery.

Crissy Cavallo: 6:32

So we were always at the meetings with them, and that

Angela Kennecke: 6:35

was a very happy time. And so recovery was something that was introduced to you at a very young age.

Crissy Cavallo: 6:41

Very. Yeah.

Angela Kennecke: 6:42

Yeah. So you knew all about it when most kids wouldn't know anything about it, probably.

Crissy Cavallo: 6:46

Exactly.

Angela Kennecke: 6:57

Robin became deeply involved in helping other women suffering from substance use disorder, sponsoring countless people along the way. Over her 17 years of sobriety, she became well known and respected within the South Florida recovery community.

Crissy Cavallo: 7:16

She was a very hard worker. Her and my dad were a really good team. He's more of the sensitive, nurturing, not to say that she wasn't, but he's definitely the more emotional and sensitive one. And she was just very hardworking. She was loving. That was just like the biggest thing when I think about her is just everything she did, she was all in. So she was just very committed, very committed to her recovery, very committed to the business that they started. She was a good mom.

Angela Kennecke: 7:49

After being very committed to her business for a decade, the family decided to sell it in 1999. The business had done so well that they were able to retire.

Crissy Cavallo: 8:01

Like I mentioned, my mom was extremely, probably that became her addiction as well, like worked really hard. So when they sold their business, she was lost. didn't know what to do, because that's where she found, and I'm very similar to her with that, that's where she found her value. Like, she liked being a mom, she loved us. It was very clear she loved working and she loved making this business successful. When they sold their business, she didn't know what to do. That was a big part of her identity. So, she had got cosmetic surgery and didn't let the doctor know that she was in recovery. She was prescribed pain medication and doesn't matter how long after your addiction will step back in.

Angela Kennecke: 8:56

Chrissy says the prescription opioids instantly pulled her mother back into active addiction. Chris says that at first he had no idea the doctor had prescribed his wife such powerful pills.

Chris Cavallo: 9:10

Eventually I knew because I found that hundreds of pills in closet I said that, listen, Rob, I can't do this. We need to live apart. Time being, she went away to a treatment facility. And right around 9 11, and she actually got stuck at this facility for a month because it was outside the U. S. And they were treating with people at that time with something called ibogaine, which is a psychedelic.

Angela Kennecke: 9:43

Ibogaine is illegal in the U. S. It falls under Schedule I, a category that includes drugs like heroin. That classification means it's seen as having no recognized medical benefits and a high risk of misuse. However, it's unregulated in countries such as Costa Rica, Mexico, and New Zealand.

Chris Cavallo: 10:06

She did not respond well. So this therapist, he came back to the state. He said, listen, I know you didn't get the effects you wanted to, but I can deliver this to you. So now she and I are living apart, probably a hundred yards from condo to condo, and I was unaware of risks. What he gave her. In lieu of Ibogaine, he gave her Ecstasy, that was cut with Thetarin, and she had a massive stroke. She had a heart issue, which was clearly on her records when she went down there. This guy ends up, he wasn't a therapist, he was not licensed. So he was charged with her murder, first degree murder.

Angela Kennecke: 10:52

Because of a plea bargain, Chris says the man's charge was decreased to manslaughter, and he ended up serving seven years in prison. So

Chris Cavallo: 11:01

that's how we lost her. But again, if it wasn't for the opioid, Not place.

Angela Kennecke: 11:08

Wow. Wow. What a horrible story. And you really do blame the prescription opioids for having her relapse into addiction and eventually turn to other drugs as well. Yeah.

Crissy Cavallo: 11:20

It's crazy, but back then I was extremely naive and now I have several credentials in the addiction treatment, but back then I didn't know anything because we were raised so strict around abstinence. Like we weren't even allowed to wear a friend's t shirt that represented bush, beer, whatever it was. I remember getting in trouble for that. growing up. So I was very naive.

Angela Kennecke: 11:51

Struggling with grief and now in her early 20s, Chrissy decided to throw herself into her college studies.

Crissy Cavallo: 11:59

Also, that goes along with my own addiction, if you will, that I just buried myself back into finishing my degree. My dad and my sister were both like, it was my last semester of college. You're like, go back, finish your degree and we'll do what we have to do here. And looking back, that's always been my coping mechanism is to keep going.

Angela Kennecke: 12:22

Chrissy says she wanted to focus on helping others struggling with substance use disorder. After earning a bachelor's degree in criminology, she went on to get her master's degree in human services with a specialization in addiction counseling. She also became a harm reduction specialist and a certified addictionologist.

Crissy Cavallo: 12:44

I was never a really big school person at all, but when I started doing my master's and started doing postgraduate. Work, I started to realize it was just because I wasn't interested because I did really well when it came to anything postgraduate, but I did that just because I wanted to understand because there's no logical reason as to why a mom leaves their child. It doesn't make sense. It was really a personal pursuit, wanting to understand. Why somebody would do this. There has to be something bigger than what we're seeing.

Angela Kennecke: 13:15

I could totally relate to you. That's why I had started this podcast. That's why I've done half the things I've done to try to gain some kind of insight or understanding into the why because it doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense why my daughter who had everything that she could have wanted and all the opportunities went down that road and became addicted to substances or why your mother relapsed, right? It just doesn't make sense. Make logical sense. I mean, I think this is why when we try to blame the person suffering from substance use disorder, we need to take a step back and say, there's much more going on here.

Crissy Cavallo: 13:49

There's not one thing that's happening. You know, you have the pregenetic exposure, you know, it's in our genes, right? You have a lot of times underlying mental health. You have any type of adverse childhood experiences, which there was that. And then also, too, what we know now is different from what we knew then. My parents didn't sit us down and make sure that we had certain coping skills to work through if we had some sort of emotional issue or whatever it was. Now, I think there's more intentional parenting. Because when you know better, you do better. And so I understand and respect my own mental health issues that I go through. So I explain to my kids, you know, if you're feeling this way, there's nothing wrong with you. But back then it was a different conversation. There really wasn't a conversation. There was a lot of

Angela Kennecke: 14:34

stigma,

Crissy Cavallo: 14:34

a lot of

Angela Kennecke: 14:35

keeping things quiet. Or you didn't know. You don't know what you don't know. Or you just didn't know. Yes. Right. So what was going on with Stephanie during this time?

Crissy Cavallo: 14:43

So one of the things that my sister always would say is that what affected her Probably more than anything else, even the being left at the babysitters or whatever was that she was always compared to me. We were always compared. I was the smaller twin. She was the bigger twin, you know, and she was always overweight and that was a big struggle for both her and my mom. She was always very introverted and self conscious, very guarded, where I was friendly and social and things like that. So there was already that guard up, and my sister would always say this, and I believe it so wholeheartedly. She'd say, my first drug of choice was anger. And what she would mean by that is that anger is a lot easier of an emotion to feel than sadness. So she felt sad. She didn't like herself. All of these things. But the anger made her feel strong, made her powerful, more in control of her emotions.

Angela Kennecke: 15:47

But controlling your emotions, especially after losing a loved one, is difficult. Chrissy admits it was especially challenging for her sister.

Crissy Cavallo: 15:57

When my mom died the night before, my mom tried to give her a hug. We were at church. It was Christmas y. And my sister was mad at her. They were very much alike. That was another thing. They were very much head to head at all times. And my sister wouldn't hug her, though she lived with that grief right away. And your mother died on Christmas Day? So they put her into a coma. Yeah. So she, it was really when he's

Angela Kennecke: 16:23

sick. And do you believe that Stephanie's grief really caused her addiction?

Crissy Cavallo: 16:29

Oh yeah, I think definitely Stephanie's grief definitely propelled her addiction. I think obviously we have the genetic exposure prior to that, but she didn't know what to do with all of the feelings that she had. And there's more often than not, there's some sort of mental health, like whether depression or could be bipolar, whatever it is, there's something underlying there. And for that chemical imbalance, the minute you try a substance, whatever that substance is, and it makes you feel level, it makes you feel normal. It's hard not to want to speak after that and that's why it's so important that you give people the platform because there's a lot of family members that don't feel like they can share because their loved one died, you know, as a result of addiction and it doesn't sound as bad as cancer in some people's mind because it's like, Oh, you played a role in that. So I think Stephanie definitely, her addiction was definitely fueled by unresolved grief.

Angela Kennecke: 17:27

To make matters worse. Stephanie was involved in a car crash, and at just 21 years old, a doctor prescribed her opioids. That's before her brain was fully developed.

Crissy Cavallo: 17:39

That's a big thing too, because if I was, I have the same genetic, you know, when I have had my children and had C sections, I noticed that I've enjoyed the pain medication that I'm prescribed, but I get scared immediately and I'm, here, take the medicine after two days and throw it away. So I have that likelihood too. Enjoy and easily be dependent and abuse those opiates. However, I put a lot of safeguards up to protect myself from that.

Angela Kennecke: 18:09

It's interesting to me that twins, and were you fraternal twins then? Yes. Not identical? Correct. Yeah, it's interesting to me that twins can come out into the world and they can have very different personality types, right? So personality does factor into substance use disorder as well. Yes. And how we handle things and how we react to things. And so you reacted to your mother's death by overachieving and studying what had gone wrong and why this had happened. And how did she react to it?

Chris Cavallo: 18:38

But Stephanie, almost immediately you could see, was just spiraling. Either coming in late or not getting up for a day or two at a time. Always justifying behavior surrounding herself, just the worst of the worst. And I'm sure that some of the people that had Stephanie hanging around with them, the parents were probably saying the same thing. Stay away from her. Get her out of jail.

Crissy Cavallo: 19:08

I would also add to something that, you know, I never knew about or understood or anything was, we never had emotional boundaries. And that was a big part of her diving into the drugs, the people that were associated with that. There was no type of emotional boundary. It was whatever we did, we were always all in. We were always helping people, but I guess like my parents, they would always help other people. That's part of their fellowship. But we, on the other hand, There was no limit to that, and for my sister, that was a huge part of her demise, I would say.

Angela Kennecke: 19:45

I'm thinking about that because my daughter was always all in in whatever she did. If it was gymnastics, or if it was art, or if it was drugs, right? She was all in. It was 100%. Is that a personality trait, do you think?

Crissy Cavallo: 19:57

So, I always say, you know, one of my addictions is that I'm a perfectionist. And in society, it's respected. It's respected, you know, when it's in the right way, but it's extremely, extremely self defeating and it's self harm. In other words, it really is because it's never good enough. And then also when you put yourself around people that maybe, for example, with my sister, she felt good about herself when she was around a crowd that wasn't as good as her, so to speak. She felt good to be able to help them and to, offer resources, support. And so when I look at it, it's pretty clear to me looking back, but, you know, again, these are the things that people don't really know to look for or to look at. or even how to address if you did know what to look for.

Angela Kennecke: 20:47

Have you lost a loved one to overdose or fentanyl poisoning? I'd like to invite you to share their story on our new Emily's Hope Memorial website called More Than Just a Number. They were our children, siblings, cousins, husbands, wives, aunts, uncles, So much more than just a number. You can submit a memorial today on MoreThanJustANumber. org When Stephanie first started using drugs, Chrissy says her sister was still functioning. She had a job and even a child.

Crissy Cavallo: 21:26

She wasn't always in the street and homeless. You know, it got progressively worse. As my sister would always say, not yet. And she would say that when people would say, Oh, I would never trade myself for drugs or, Oh, I would never be homeless. I would never leave my child and she'd say, not yet. You'll do whatever you have to do to protect your addiction. This addiction is talking to you in your mind, especially when it comes to opioids. It changes the way your brain functions. Your reward pathway becomes very different where we would say, Oh, you're doing good if you get good grades. Your brain changes after some time and says, go for that. It made you feel better. It made things better for you. So, over time, she'd lose a job. She eventually lost her child, her first child.

Angela Kennecke: 22:23

Despite the challenges, Chrissy says her sister found sobriety several times. But each time, she eventually relapsed.

Crissy Cavallo: 22:34

She would stop taking medication, stop doing therapy, and once her coping skills weren't there and the medication which balanced her chemically, she would end up relapsing. How many

Angela Kennecke: 22:48

years did this go on? About 18 years. 18 years. And there were some real low points for Stephanie, right? Oh, yeah.

Crissy Cavallo: 22:56

And I think that also has a lot to do with it because every time that she went back out, her environment and her willingness to do whatever she had to do just to stay high would become that much more dangerous and in opposition to her morals and her values. Mm hmm. And so I think that just makes it worse, and your desperation controls you, yeah. The sad

Chris Cavallo: 23:24

part is that we live in a very small community. It's like west of Fort Lauderdale. A little community called Davey and Steffy lived for a period of time under a bridge that Chrissy and I would go over on a daily basis. We know that she's probably beneath that bridge. Then she was trafficked. She was sent to steal things and then resell them in order for her to stay high. She was sent in the streets to do everything that the streets have to offer when you're in that kind of situation.

Angela Kennecke: 24:04

How hard was that for the two of you? And especially, Christina, with you knowing everything you know about addiction and not really being able to help your sister.

Crissy Cavallo: 24:16

It was devastating being that I've worked in this field for a long time. I would have a lot of my colleagues say, you're enabling her or you're codependent. They would say a lot of different things because the way that we handled my sister, and I'm not saying at times they weren't codependent and enabling behaviors. However, we're able to rest in knowing that my sister, when she died without a shadow of a doubt. My sister knew how much we adored her and loved her because I would still go to her when she would call for me. However, my boundary became, I will go when I want to go. Where before she would say, I'm hungry, I'm thirsty, please. They just did this and this to me, please come get me. And I would run. It would be three o'clock in the morning or whatever time I had her kids and my kids. So there was a lot of different dynamics there. I actually was able to feel good about what I was doing with the circumstances. When I was choosing when to go, what I would give her, what I would do. Whereas my colleagues would be like, you can't give her money. You can't go to her every time she comes. And at first, like it was such a cycle of shame for me. And so now when I work with people, that's one of the biggest areas I work on with family members and thing that to call somebody codependent and especially a family member in crisis is the most shaming, horrible, unethical thing you can really do. It's not even a diagnosis to call somebody, uh, codependent, not even a DSM diagnosis, but providers have made it so normal to say that to somebody you're codependent and you're enabling and so I had to go through my own recovery with that. This is how I love and I just had to find a balance of loving her and loving me at the same time.

Angela Kennecke: 26:06

Don't you think it's just that we're trying to do the best we can and we, are frustrated and feel so helpless in this kind of situation that we make different choices, we try different things as loved ones and some work and some don't work and we sort of learn as we go. And I was really practicing detachment before Emily died because I was so caught up in everything that was going on with her. It was hard for me to be happy in any other area of my life. It was like, I would say a dark cloud as a parent and I don't know, Chris, if you felt this way, but like when one of your children isn't doing well or something is wrong with them, it's like a dark cloud just follows you around. But we don't all get it right all the time. We're human beings. I really do feel

Crissy Cavallo: 26:51

like every case is individual and you know how your child operates. And that was part of my issue is that I couldn't operate in a way of don't call here ever again. I'm not saying that you don't have boundaries. You have to have boundaries and things like that. But I also had to do it in a way that was being real with myself. So it's finding that boundary and really like seeing people as individuals and each family individually. That makes us able to say like that was one thing for sure, even though we could have found ways to blame ourselves when she died, because there was different ways that we could have physically intervened during that week. I know for sure that God removed us because we did everything that we could do. And there's no doubt. And I'm so grateful that I know that she knew that we adore her. I think that everybody has to take that individual approach and. Has to do what works for them and you can't follow a textbook and you can't follow one therapist or one Psychologist because there's a lot of bias involved in that too Just because a therapist is telling you something or a recovery coach or psychiatrist doesn't mean that's what it is

Chris Cavallo: 28:01

There's still you know, I'm sitting here thinking because I read about Emily that in three more days She was gonna be in treatment. We've been there with Stephanie But what happened though that was so impactful is that I had gone away. Subsequently, I remarried to my present wife, Karen. Interesting enough, her last name is Robin, and she and I went on a cruise, and I was feeling very uncomfortable, even though Stephanie was going through her recovery period at that time. Something in my gut told me I'm a private investigator by trade. I took a tracker, put it under her car. The day before I left, I just wanted to be able to see. And I saw that she was in an area that she wasn't supposed to be, so I kept on calling Chrissy and my best friend. What's going on? What's going on? You're trying to manage the situation from a distance. Right. And the guilt part that Chrissy is referring to is that Stephanie had texted me late that night. And I didn't get it till the next morning. And basically she said, I just can't do it anymore. I want to die. Right. And, of course, I felt, had I gotten that, maybe I could have talked her down over that one situation. But it was inevitable in today's environment, regardless of whatever drug that you buy in the street, eventually your time's going to run out. It is.

Angela Kennecke: 29:34

So whether you could have intervened that one time when you got that text message, or if I would have gotten my daughter into treatment and it could have been six months later, or We have to look at the reality of the drug supply today, how deadly it is, and the chances of survival with relapse are not

Crissy Cavallo: 29:50

good. And relapse is definitely a part, and that's another thing, you know, I don't think people talk about it enough, relapse is part of the journey. It's very rare that you find somebody that doesn't relapse if they don't, that's great. But I would say two important things that I thought of when my dad was speaking is, one, my sister had just gained her visitation back with her son, which, you know, and the judge told her, you come back in two months and you're still where you are, I'm going to give you back your 50 50 custody. And so that brings up this whole idea about self sabotage. And despite that she was nine months clean and doing so well, she kept saying to my dad and I during that time, I just have to get Christopher back to you guys, and then you don't need me anymore. And one, she was definitely struggling with her mental health this time around, like getting on the right medication and stopping and starting, that was part of it. But it's this whole, this belief that, you know, you guys don't need me, as long as I can get him back to you, you guys will be okay. And that's her real belief.

Angela Kennecke: 30:55

While Stephanie was struggling with her mental health and had relapsed, the family doesn't believe she intended to die. She purchased heroin that was actually a deadly dose of fentanyl.

Chris Cavallo: 31:08

Like Emily, just as soon as she put the needle in her arm, she was done. She was done. And she was at a hotel. And for Chrissy to have to witness seeing her sister, her twin, the love of her life, her soulmate, and then have a law enforcement officer tell her, what did you expect? Chrissy your sister's been a junkie for 18 years. It just doesn't make sense. Mind boggling. And that's why when we talk about education, everyone needs to be educating from the law enforcement officer down to the addicts that are still using.

Crissy Cavallo: 31:46

I remember the first time my sister ever picked up a one year medallion, previous years prior. And we happened to be in a meeting hall where my mom used to attend meetings. And I will never forget when I saw my sister go up there, I heard my mom say, I died so you could live. And it's like, I feel the same thing when my sister died, I felt like she was saying that to me, which I'm like, I don't want to live without you, but it's like, you're reaching so many people through Emily's death. And it's like, of course you wouldn't want to lose her to then go on and do this, but with our foundation and with the work that you're doing, when we use our pain for purpose, we're changing the course for generations. A lot of people have kids, my sister had kids, you know, and it's really important that they understand. The person who died wasn't their choices. You truly do become a hostage and you couldn't have loved them anymore. I used to tell my dad all the time, we can't add a day to her life or take away, you know, there's nothing that we could do to love her anymore to life. You know, everyone has a time and a purpose on the earth. And while we don't like it, you know, it's our responsibility to be there for other people and to share what we know. I'm

Angela Kennecke: 33:03

so sorry that you were treated that way by law enforcement, that someone said something so horrific to you after you lost your twin sister. I know this happens. I had another mother tell me, well, what'd you expect? You know, it's just another junkie. And I think when we discount human beings like that, and when we fail to understand the disease of addiction, it is so shaming and unfortunate for everybody, for all family members. So. I'm horribly sorry that that happened to you, and I wonder, how have you coped with your grief?

Chris Cavallo: 33:41

I thought, when I lost Robin, that it couldn't possibly get any worse. But when Stephanie died, it's a whole different thing. No matter how old your child is, 21, 42, they're still your child. So that was paramount, and Chrissy says to me, we have got to do something.

Angela Kennecke: 34:13

The family created a foundation in 2003 to support those struggling with substance use disorder. But after Stephanie's death, they redoubled their efforts. Their focus shifted to saving lives at risk of overdose by providing Narcan and proper training. Their long term goal is to build a facility dedicated to helping women and children facing both substance abuse and mental health challenges.

Crissy Cavallo: 34:39

Stephanie was a big writer. She would write constantly. My mom was the same way. And so not only would she verbalize it, but it's really nice that we have her journal. She always wanted to have a recovery residence for women and children, because there was a time where she was able to go to treatment with her son. And that was also a very pivotal point. When she lost her son, she didn't feel like she had anything else to live for. So that really was a big issue. So. That initially what we set out to do is to be able to keep that bond as moms. It's our innate desire to want to nurture and take care of our children. So when we're not doing that, obviously something's not right with the person rather than just saying they're selfish or whatever. Our long term goal is to be able to support women and children, but we've had to put that on hold because the fentanyl crisis has become so severe. We've needed to provide Narcan training and distribution, so it's still our long term goal to be able to make that a resident happen in honor of her and all of the moms out there who want to be with their children and can't, but right now we're really just trying to be boots on the ground and save people from fentanyl.

Angela Kennecke: 35:51

We're doing some of that work too at Emily's Hope, free Narcan distribution, fentanyl testing strip distribution. It is important we get those life saving tools out there everywhere. Well, I wanted to know also about Stephanie's children. Where are they today and how are they doing?

Crissy Cavallo: 36:07

So we actually finally just were reunited with her son. Her son was with his father. He was taken from my, when he was about 14. The father was not supportive of keeping him in our lives. So that was a whole nother part of our greet.

Angela Kennecke: 36:26

Another loss for you. Tremendous

Crissy Cavall: 36:28

loss. So recently he actually, now he's 19. He actually just came to live with my dad. which has been incredible, but she also had a daughter when she was homeless. She got pregnant and she had a daughter who I have raised since birth. There's been a lot of complications there, if you will. She's now 12 and very involved with the world, having access to information, so I'll be mindful what I say there, but, you know, you can see the effects.

Angela Kennecke: 37:00

Right. So her children are deeply impacted. Their lives. being disrupted. There are connections that are severed, as in the case with her son. And I'm sure if her daughter was born during a difficult time in her life, those have a lasting impact on her as well. And just being raised by your aunt, you know it, right? She knows it. Yeah. No,

Crissy Cavallo: 37:21

yeah. She definitely, she understands it to a good extent. And my children, that's what people don't understand. They called her Nini. And so my sister was ama just like Emily and all these other people. They're amazing people. When they're not in addiction. So my kids were devastated. They started failing their great, you know, elementary school So, you know, it's so important that we remind everyone that these are people that were very loved that were amazing and integral parts of families Despite their addiction, you know, it's not a relief when they pass away By you know,

Angela Kennecke: 37:53

and there's so much collateral damage and people do forget about So many millions of children being raised by aunts or grandparents or whatever it is because of this. And I think the time for judgment should be done and the time for solutions here. And I think the only way it's going to happen is for organizations like yours, people like you who get impacted and devastated by this and me and all of us. to join together and do work in our corners of the world, but also to come together in that work. Absolutely. I am so sorry for the loss of Stephanie and thank you for the work you're doing to try to save lives in Florida and beyond, I'm sure. And I think by people just hearing your story and the loss of a wife and mother, a daughter and sister, a twin sister, I mean, it's just, it's unbelievable what some families have endured.

Crissy Cavallo: 38:48

Yeah. Addiction has no favorites, so when they see the different ways that each of us look and the different backgrounds we come from, it's so important that they understand, like, addiction can happen to anybody. It doesn't matter.

Angela Kennecke: 39:00

And whether you've been successful, whether you've been in recovery long term, these losses are mounting, and it's terrifying. And thank goodness Narcan is out there, and you're doing your work with that, because overdose slash fentanyl poison deaths are a bit lower in this last year. We hope we continue to see that downward trend. I believe it's because of Narcan that's available. We've got to get to the root of the problems that cause these addictions, substance use disorder in the first place. Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for all the work you're doing and thank you for spending time with me today.

Crissy Cavallo: 39:38

so

Angela Kennecke: 39:38

much. Thank you for taking the time to learn more about this critical issue affecting our country, substance use disorder and the deadly fentanyl epidemic. If you found this episode helpful, please subscribe. Give us a five star review and write something about it. Plus share it with people, you know, who could benefit from listening to it. We so appreciate your support until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Wundenberg King and Kayli Fitz.