Angela Kennecke: 0:06

Welcome to this special episode of Grieving Out Loud, Words of Wisdom, Surviving Grief. We put this together, especially for International Podcast Day. I'm Angela Kenecke, and today I want to share with you some of the insights I've gained on my journey to becoming a certified grief educator. Through the teachings of David Kessler, I've come to understand that grief is not something we can fix, it's something we must honor. Grief is both traumatic and transformative, and while each of us experiences it in our own unique way, we can find solace in knowing that we are not alone in this journey. In this episode, we will explore the idea that those who grieve are not broken. They don't need to be fixed, but rather supported, understood, and respected. We'll talk about the importance of connection to ourselves, to our loved ones, and to our communities, and how this connection can help us navigate the rocky terrain of loss. Through this podcast, we strive to hold space for those in grief, and we can all contribute to creating a compassionate world for those who are mourning. Unfortunately, grief is an inevitable part of life, but so is the potential for healing and growth. Together, we can learn to carry our grief with grace, honoring those we've lost while finding meaning and hope in our lives moving forward. Thank you for joining me today. Let's dive into Words of Wisdom Surviving Grief. Since my daughter's death in 2018, I've had countless conversations about something most people try to avoid, grief. In nearly 200 episodes of Grieving Out Loud, I've had the privilege of hearing from so many who've lost the people they love the most. Each story is different. It's really like a brain injury when you have such a traumatic and shocking death, you're in shock, and it really does feel like a brain injury of brain fog. I think most of us have experienced that.

Deric Kidd: 2:36

I can't really describe the pain. I've watched a lot of interviews with people that have lost, whether it's just normal people or celebrity and people that have lost. specifically a child, and you can literally see the pain in their eyes. You can hear it in their voices when they talk about it, and we're talking years, years down the road. What I have found is, you learn to live with it.

Chris Didier: 3:01

I believe that grief is a unique journey for every one of us. We all grief differently, and that's okay. I've learned that there's no timeline, and there's no right order on grief. It's a unique thing. I've learned that even though you may be surrounded by family and friends, you really do feel alone.

Kay Sumner: 3:27

Well, first of all, I am determined that when life has been stolen, it's not going to steal my life.

Angela Kennecke: 3:36

I want to thank everyone who has so candidly shared their stories. We can all learn from each other and hopefully make the difficult journey of life after a major loss a little less difficult. We're going to start today by revisiting a conversation I had with the oldest person to come on this podcast. She also is one of the wisest. Dr. Gladys McGarry is 103 years old. When I sat down with her, she was 102. Known as the mother of holistic medicine, Gladys journey is nothing short of remarkable. In addition to her fascinating career, she's endured cancer, navigated a divorce at nearly 70 years old, and lost her daughter.

Dr. Gladys McGarey: 4:25

I can spend my time grieving for what I didn't get. As she grew into her 70s and so on, and that's very painful. I, I, I don't want to spend a lot of time doing that. I would much rather spend my time enjoying her energy and who and what she is to this day. You know, she's still, in other words, in my Mind. She's still alive. She passed through the doorway that we call death into another dimension, but she doesn't stop existing. My parents the same. They don't stop existing. They still, that energy is still alive and nobody can take that away from us.

Angela Kennecke: 5:23

While we often think of grief as something that follows a death, It can also stem from other kinds of loss, a job, a friendship, or in Gladys case, the end of a marriage.

Dr. Gladys McGarey: 5:38

When my husband asked for a divorce after 46 years of having what I thought was an awesome life, I mean, I was having a great time. I was so damaged and so hurt, and I couldn't understand, couldn't figure out what in the world had happened, my whole world, my work, everything seemed to have just crashed down, and I was driving to my home, which is now, And I was yelling. I was screaming. I was screaming at God. I was screaming at anything I could scream because nobody was hearing me. And I needed to do that. I just absolutely needed to let the world know how broken I was. But in the midst of doing that, I suddenly, Pulled the car over to the side of the road and stopped and listened to what I was doing and feeling it and The words came down to me. This is a day the Lord has made. Let us rejoice and be glad in it. And I thought, Oh, okay, I'll do it. And so I changed my license plate to be glad. And the rest of the time I was. Driving around here in Phoenix, my license plate, or my message, was Be Glad. My name is Gladys, and that allowed me to realize that I had a choice. I could either continue to at the universe and making myself miserable or I could take what we had done together, the work we'd done, the kids we'd had the wonderful and live with that memory and go on with the work.

Angela Kennecke: 7:59

Brady Harris and Nathan says she couldn't get out of bed for months after her son Jack died from fentanyl poisoning, but it was what 19 year old Jack had started. that Brady realized she had to finish. Jack transferred paintings he created onto t shirts and started a clothing company called Happy Jack, donating back a portion of sales to organizations that help children with their mental health.

Bradi Harrison Nathan: 8:30

I was tired. I was emotionally tired, too tired to eat, too tired to socialize, too tired to carry on a conversation. And it took every ounce of me just to even Get me to the synagogue that day to hear the rabbi speak. It took me two years to get to the cemetery and I know everyone grieves differently. And for me personally, I become completely exhausted.

Angela Kennecke: 9:07

And your grief is your grief. I mean, it is. And no one should define for you what that means or what you should do or not do. But my heart aches for you thinking of how devastated and sad, because I know that devastation and sadness. I know that tiredness. What eventually got you to get going and get back into life again?

Bradi Harrison Nathan: 9:31

Happy Jack. He had launched a business that I knew I had to continue. I wanted to honor his legacy and his memory. And his friends all rallied around Happy Jack and picked up the slack when I couldn't. And it gave me a reason to wake up in the morning. It, Obviously my daughter, who's now 20, I told her, I promised her that I wouldn't go numb, and it's for her and for a happy day. That's where my strength came from. And I'm grateful to my son that he left us that gift.

Angela Kennecke: 10:14

We've talked to others who've also found purpose through projects in honor of their loved ones. That includes Emmy nominated producer Kay Sumner and her husband, Murray. After their son died from a drug overdose, the couple poured their heart into the film Survivor. The documentary ventures into the real stories of triumph over opioid addiction, and the heart wrenching tales of loss.

Murray Sumner: 10:44

We agreed just early on, look, we cannot wallow in this. We just, we really need to take the talents, our God given talents, and basically come out of retirement and tell the world this story.

Kay Sumner: 10:56

First of all, I am determined that when life has been stolen, it's not going to steal my life. I am going to try to be, and I think Murray feels the same way, as active as we can. dialogue.

Angela Kennecke: 11:17

Other parents I out loud say that what tr the hardest moments was t of loved ones, coupled wi of sharing their story. A can

Carol Wolfe: 11:32

tell his story, my he But yet I think that's ju to bring that shatterness for

Angela Kennecke: 11:50

your shattered heart.

Carol Wolfe: 11:51

Yeah, I'm not going to say it's ever going to heal. No, probably not.

Angela Kennecke: 11:55

You learn to live with it.

Carol Wolfe: 11:56

Yeah, but every time I talk, it gets a little bit stronger. The second talk I did, I did in Hardington, Nebraska, and I did it at the school, and the counselor there told me, you know, you did a very good job. I'd never spoke before. It

Angela Kennecke: 12:14

takes a lot of courage. Public speaking is the number one fear, you know, I just have all these years of training. I'm not afraid of it anymore, but for most people.

Carol Wolfe: 12:21

Yeah. And you just jumped in and did it. I jumped in with both feet.

Angela Kennecke: 12:24

And she said, you did a great job.

Carol Wolfe: 12:26

Yep. He said, I'm going to tell you something and you can believe it if you want to. But when you're standing up there talking, I seen Josh standing right behind you. And then I knew that's it. I'm doing the right thing. This is what I'm supposed to do.

Angela Kennecke: 12:44

You're keeping Josh's memory alive, and I always say, I just want there to be some sense out of a senseless death. Yes. You know, and that's why I speak about Emily and tell her story too, not just to keep her memory alive, but to make some sense out of a senseless death, something that didn't need to happen. Exactly. Exactly. Shouldn't have happened. Shouldn't have happened.

Carol Wolfe: 13:03

Yeah. Faith has a lot to do with how we handle things. Yes. And I was born and raised in a good, faithful area, and I almost lost that faith when I lost Josh, but I've started to find it back. I struggle when people say, well, God chose Josh. Yeah, I don't, I don't

Angela Kennecke: 13:29

believe that either. I will not accept that. I think what happened was because of what people did. Yes. It happened because of freedom of choice. It happened because someone did something. And God wasn't saying it's time for me to take Josh now.

Carol Wolfe: 13:43

Or Emily. No. You know, God don't work in that way. Somebody chose to give our kids the bad, bad stuff. And that's kind of where I live with that.

Angela Kennecke: 13:54

Right. You know, I think it's natural to have somewhat of a crisis of faith because you feel like you've done everything that you were supposed to do to raise this child and there should be some kind of payoff or reward for that, right? It shouldn't be their death. Right. I mean, by any means. Right. And so you feel like you've been abandoned. Yeah, you do. You do. What brought you back or what helped you restore your faith?

Carol Wolfe: 14:19

Right now, my answer to that is I would say probably my grandkids, because if they see me questioning my faith, they're only three and four years old, the oldest two. And I don't want them to never have that faith. I want them to hold on to that faith. So you want to be an example. I do want to be a good example. I do.

Angela Kennecke: 14:57

Talking about a loved one can be deeply healing for many, including Carol and me, but it's important to remember that grief is a unique journey for everyone. What brings comfort to one person may not be the same for another. For Harold Noriega, who lost his son Cooper in 2022, the process looked different. Here's what he shared about his experience. Dads don't want to talk. Men don't want to talk. That's probably why I have so many women on this podcast, as opposed to dads, right?

Harold Noreiga: 15:32

Yeah, dads don't want to talk. I don't know, maybe it's how we're socialized, like the mental health thing. Talk. Never been a person of this thought process, but I was getting consumed about suicide, to the point where like, well, how do I actually do this? Like one, you know, the logistics side of me, the guy that gets stuff done, you know, the business guy. Well, how do you do this? Well, I'm certainly not going to put a gun under my chin because that would be messy. I don't want anybody to find that, right? And you don't hang yourself. Cause I know people that have attempted that and sometimes it doesn't work. But I'm like, what am I thinking about? Right. I'm like, this is insane. This is not me. But that dark hole of grief sucks you down because it makes you feel that the guilt and shame of all this, like this wouldn't have happened if it wasn't because of me, I didn't save my son. I couldn't be a good enough father. You know, you go through all this spiraling negativity and You have to have something that keeps you from going there. And I think every parent probably does think about at least like I remember describing, I could see this black hole, you know, like peripherally in my mind. And to me it was death. And again, I'm not going there.

Angela Kennecke: 16:48

On Grieving Out Loud. We've spoken with more than just parents who've lost children. Life coach Lynn Gillette, for example, is raising her nieces after the devastating loss of her brother to cancer. For more information visit www. FEMA. gov and the girl's mother to suicide following a battle with substance use disorder. Lynn is navigating her own grief while also supporting her nieces through theirs. But she's found a way to reframe the tragedy in her mind, offering a different perspective on loss and resilience.

Lynn Gillette: 17:21

You kind of get to a point where it's like this is how it was supposed to be. Because I have to tell myself that this is how It was going to be, Jason was meant to be in their life for 44 years. Annie was meant to be in their life for 44 years. And if they weren't able to continue their lives here on earth, that I'm here to help continue the work that they started. And when I think about it like that, like this is how it was supposed to be. It doesn't mean Jason was supposed to die and Annie was supposed to die and they were supposed to have these awful challenges. but it does bring me some peace that I'm here.

Angela Kennecke: 18:11

When it comes to helping her nieces through their grief, Lynn says she's learned the importance of following their lead by letting them guide the process as they navigate their own emotions.

Lynn Gillette: 18:26

Some of them are very private, they don't really talk a lot about it with me, where a couple of them are very open about it. And so I kind of take their lead. And just the other night I was tucking one of them in and she was having some tears and she just said, I really miss mom and dad.

Angela Kennecke: 18:45

Oh,

Lynn Gillette: 18:46

you know, I want to fix that and I know I can't and it's not about fixing things for them. It's about listening and I read the situation. So when that happens, sometimes it's a matter of just listening. Well, it's always a matter of listening, just listening and seeing what they're feeling. But sometimes it's a matter of talking about, you know, what do you think right now they're most proud of, you know? What do you think they're most getting a kick out of that you're doing or that you've done or something that's happened? But that night my heart my intuition told me just to let her know That I miss them, too. I I can't even imagine What you are feeling right now With your mom and dad passing away, I can't imagine, but one thing I am certain of is that I am so glad that they trust Zane and I to be here for you, love you, and provide for you. I'm so grateful that they have that trust in us and that believe in us. And that seemed to really help her. I mean, I could just see this weight come off her and this light. And it's never about saying the right thing or doing the right thing. but it's just about showing up the best way that you know how to support them and not trying to fix it for them.

Angela Kennecke: 20:10

For those who have lost children, we see their friends move on with their lives and do all the things that our children will never get a chance to do, like getting married and having children of their own, our grandchildren. While we may be happy for them, it can also bring up the deep sadness of our own loss. as Ed Ternan from Song for Charlie explains.

Ed Ternan: 20:37

There's so much bittersweetness in our lives now, right? Where being with these young men who I've known a couple of them since kindergarten and just so impressed with the young men they've become. And yet, I won't enjoy that same thing with my son. And you know, we have a wedding coming up. Charlie's sister's getting married. And that's very emotional, right? It's a joyful occasion for our family, but there's a big hole that we just, there's no way to fill it. So these conflicting emotions, that's one of the things our grief therapist has said to us, that you have to start to learn how to walk through life with these conflicting emotions in your head at the same time. It's, it's difficult.

Angela Kennecke: 21:22

Those conflicting emotions can be especially apparent during holidays. We have an entire podcast episode with a grief expert devoted to this topic. It's episode 143, Surviving the Holiday Season While Grieving. Society wants you to be joyful and celebrating holidays. You may not feel that

Dr. Mark Vande Braak: 21:47

way. You don't feel it, so acknowledge it. It's okay. And I would suggest being present with that loved one that died. And that's when I say that, that's where I've always pushed people to have conversations with their loved ones that's died. And it's a very weird technique, but what I do is I challenge people to literally write, have a written conversation with them.

Angela Kennecke: 22:10

Tell me what you mean by that.

Dr. Mark Vande Braak: 22:11

Well, I would say, for example, for you, you'd start out, Hey, Emily, met this crazy doctor wants me to talk to you. So here it goes. You start talking about what's going on in the day, talk about her siblings, catch her up to speed with what's going on with work, with what you're doing, those types of things. Cause if you think of it logically. We miss them here, but inevitably we miss them talking. We miss having those conversations. And I'm saying if you trust your heart, those memories, those legacies will still always be there. And that's, you know, the beautiful thing with Emily's Hope is that you carry on Emily's tradition. And what I've emphasized always is never focus on their deaths. Focus on their life, because their life is what has meaning. We have the birth date, then we have the death date, but what's the most important is the middle part, and that's the dash. That's the life that they lived, who they are, and that's a cognitive thing in some ways of saying, well, you know, there are more than their death is really what it boils down to.

Angela Kennecke: 23:15

Yes, definitely. Definitely. And definitely more than how they died while we're trying to help. People in Emily's name not suffer the same kind of fate. I always worry, and I always say this when I talk to groups, that I worry about she's only going to be remembered for how she died because it was in such a stigmatized way.

Dr. Mark Vande Braak: 23:33

But that's, and that's your emphasis. That's her siblings, her, one that was, loved Emily. The, the hope and the, the job then is to keep her a part of your story, to put her on display, so to splay, in your heart, because no matter where you go, she can be a part of your journey.

Angela Kennecke: 23:51

Why is writing the conversation so important?

Dr. Mark Vande Braak: 23:54

There is something that is amazing that happens when you can take and you have a written conversation with your loved one, and what I say is, set it down, go get a cup of coffee or some juice or something, then come back and read it to yourself. When you read it, it actually becomes a filter and you get to determine what is it that I'm going to put in my heart and what is it that I don't need to hold on to anymore. There's something in our, our brain scans and our functioning that says, you know what, that's really not important. If I, if you want to focus on her death, go right ahead. But if you say, you know what, I remember when she was in the dance recital and she did that great dance or when she drew that piece of art is my favorite piece. those positives start to outweigh all the negative images that have in our brain.

Angela Kennecke: 24:45

Do people ever tell you when they write something to their loved one, that the loved one responds through their own writing?

Dr. Mark Vande Braak: 24:52

In some ways, yeah. I, I try to filter even more saying, trust your heart and what would they say? Like if Emily was sitting right here right now, what would she be telling mom? I love you. I'm proud of you. You know if you listen.

Angela Kennecke: 25:04

I do hear her voice in my own head sometimes. I Or I talk to her maybe and she's a mom, you know. But do you see

Dr. Mark Vande Braak: 25:12

what just happened with you? You're smiling because you were remembering the positives. It's so easy to get lost in all the negative imagery. Right. It's so easy. What went wrong. Yeah, what I could have, should have, would have done if I should have, if I would have done this.

Angela Kennecke: 25:28

I think all parents who've lost a child do that.

Dr. Mark Vande Braak: 25:30

Yeah. But. Ask yourself, how is that helping you? If you're that powerful and you could have controlled it, then you would have.

Angela Kennecke: 25:36

Right.

Dr. Mark Vande Braak: 25:37

Guilt is a word that should have never ever been invented.

Angela Kennecke: 25:42

Have you lost a loved one to overdose or fentanyl poisoning? I'd like to invite you to share their story on our new Emily's Hope Memorial website called More Than Just a Number. They were our children, siblings, cousins, husbands, wives, aunts, uncles. And friends, so much more than just a number. You can submit a memorial today on more than just a number.org. We've talked to parents who find comfort in writing letters to their children even after they've died. Here's Justin Phillips who lost her son, Aaron, through a drug overdose.

Justin Phillips: 26:27

I can put my thoughts down on paper and then I can leave them there. I have written to Aaron from almost the very beginning. I have 10 years worth of journals of talking to Aaron, and I sometimes do better, like my measure of better is that I go to the cemetery less, right? I write less than I did in the beginning, but I always would address it to Aaron in various ways, dear Aaron or dear baby boy. And today I'm mad at you, or today I miss you, or can you please show up? I believe 100 percent Angela and signs, and I look for them and I'm desperate for them. And I ask for them and they bring me comfort. I've been learning a lot about how grief is really a form of a traumatic brain injury and how I need to work on retraining my brain. There is some level of PTSD involved and I need to help myself Process like I said, I've really just got to continue to process and be proud or be Graceful with myself is all I did today was get up and brush my teeth and brush my hair and show up in the best Way that I could that is a big win and I'm not always you know willing to accept that but it's the truth, right? Some days are better than others and that whole cliche thing about grief being like waves is 100 percent true and there are the waves that pull me down and then there are the waves that lap at my feet and I know That despite the fact that it's been 10 years and maybe it's better because I go to the cemetery less It's never gonna not be a part of me. It is a part of me and I'm not gonna be ashamed of that I'm gonna carry it as a is part of the journey. Aaron is a part of me and his loss is a part of me and part of who I am today.

Angela Kennecke: 28:22

Well, I would agree with everything you said. I want to dive into it a little bit deeper. I've had a grief expert, a thanatologist on the podcast a couple of times. And one thing he strongly recommends is writing to your loved one, keeping that conversation going. And you just sort of did that instinctually? Or is that something you picked up from somewhere?

Justin Phillips: 28:41

I did. I've always been a journaler, so it's probably because I always had been a journaler. Mm hmm.

Angela Kennecke: 28:48

Does Aaron ever answer back?

Justin Phillips: 28:49

You know, honestly, he has answered back a couple times. Yep.

Angela Kennecke: 28:53

And I think about the other thing about signs, and I feel like I had a lot of signs early on, maybe in the first couple of years. Mm hmm. And I feel like I don't, I don't get them now and I want them. And then at first I thought, was that really a sign or is it just me wanting it to be a sign? And then my grief counselor at the time says, what does it matter? What does it matter if you find comfort in that sign? What kinds of signs do you get from Aaron?

Justin Phillips: 29:18

So it started out with the simple signs, the sort of universal signs. The cardinals and the butterflies, there was a significance for me of a feather. I had a cousin when the day Aaron passed away who was walking on a labyrinth and she reached out to me and said that when she was walking in the labyrinth, that feather floated down. And so for me, feathers, which I know is a fairly common universal sign as well. And then I read this book and forgive me, Angela, I cannot remember the author, but it's called Signs. It's written by a median. And she describes in the book how to ask for your own signs for your loved ones specifically and how to be very specific if you want to be specific, if you want it to be a purple elephant by all means, but then you have to watch for it. So I did that last year on Aaron's day of passing, and I decided I would ask for skateboards. And. Skateboarders are not as common as when Aaron was an adolescent, although it maybe is coming back. So I did, I asked for skateboards and in all the random places, in the terminal of the Dallas airport, not in the terminal like for the, the gate before you get through security, but actually through security a skateboarder, right?

Angela Kennecke: 30:38

Mm hmm.

Justin Phillips: 30:39

And so Those are, are the things for me and sometimes it's very subtle, right? Sometimes it is just the cardinal in a random place, but it's okay. I'm going to take it because I need it.

Angela Kennecke: 30:52

Right.

Justin Phillips: 30:53

Right. And I would need to believe. And I do believe that Aaron is around.

Angela Kennecke: 31:02

Many guests on Grieving Out Loud have shared stories of searching for and finding signs from their loved ones. Megan Judge, a popular podcast host, joined us for an episode where she opened up about her journey of healing and how she's worked through both grief and trauma.

Meghan Judge: 31:24

I have heard so many signs from guests of mine. I always ask, what's your sign that you know somebody's with you? And the things that I've heard, there's no way there's nothing after this.

Angela Kennecke: 31:37

You know, I had a lot of signs from my daughter, especially in the first two years I felt like, and then I thought, are these really signs or am I just wanting them to be signs? And then my grief counselor said, what does it matter if it brings you comfort? You know, what does it matter if it's, you know, is your brain just trying to look for things? And now I don't get the kind of signs that I used to get early on, which kind of bothers me a little bit.

Meghan Judge: 32:01

That just means, and this is just my opinion, because I never get a sign from my sister, never get a sign from my dad, ever, except one time on an airplane. I heard my dad's, I sound like a quack right now. I was a horrible flyer my whole life, hated flying. Got on an airplane, I saw, this sounds so weird, but it happened, I know it happened, unless my brain was, I don't, and I wasn't drinking and I was not on anything. So I looked in the window and I saw my dad's reflection, and my dad used to call me baby girl. And he goes, baby girl, it's going to be okay. That was like one of the only times I've ever had my dad. This is probably like five years ago ever since. And I've been okay flying knock on wood.

Kay Sumner: 32:46

Wow.

Meghan Judge: 32:48

Yeah. Yeah. So like, but I don't feel my dad a lot. I don't feel my sister, but Julie, especially when I was going through the horrific pain of that friend breakup time, her sign has always been a butterfly, a Monarch butterfly. Bye. I would see them everywhere. And one day I was walking up a hill in a monarch butterfly. I was going up this huge hill because I like to go on really long walks by the beach and follow me all the way up this hill, all the way up. I mean, so many things have happened where I just, I feel her presence and I know she's with me. So I think that some souls just are like, far away, but it doesn't mean they're not with us. We just can't feel them. And then other souls, I think, stay really close to us.

Angela Kennecke: 33:39

Yeah. And I just wondered, maybe I needed it more, you know, in the first few years than I do now. I don't know. Definitely felt some days like I couldn't go on and I don't feel that as often as I used to. I think that's a normal feeling. for a parent who's lost a child. In fact, I know parents who've completed suicide after losing a child or drank themselves to death. It's not unusual. I think those feelings are normal. I never, you know, thought of how I would end my life. I never went that far, but I definitely felt like I can't do this anymore. And now I don't feel that way. No, I really cling to my other children and my husband and worry about something might happen to them, but you know, grief is funny that way, right?

Meghan Judge: 34:21

And maybe that means that she felt like she could have like released you a little bit. Maybe. Because sometimes I don't feel like if I'm, if I'm not going through a hard period. It don't feel like she's close to me, but then other times if I, you know, like I said, grief is that backpack we just said that we carry all the time. And sometimes the backpack is too heavy. And other times you're perfectly fine and you almost like not forget about it, but you put it in a place where you're like, I'm having a good day. I'm happy.

Angela Kennecke: 35:08

Along with searching for signs and journaling, guests on Grieving Out Loud have emphasized the healing power. of speaking out loud to their lost loved ones. Here's Carol Wolfe sharing her experience.

Carol Wolfe: 35:23

You know when I drove here, I drove by myself. And it's a long way. It is a long ways. And they asked us to bring a picture. So, when I got in my car and I put my seatbelt on, I had Josh sitting right there beside me with his picture, looking at me the whole way. So, I had his undying attention.

Angela Kennecke: 35:44

So, did you have a conversation with him? We

Carol Wolfe: 35:46

did. All the way. All the way. You know, and I told him, I said, Josh, I'm doing a lot of this for you, buddy. And I have yet to see a sign from him. But my kids have. So I think we're doing the right thing.

Angela Kennecke: 36:01

And there is a grief counselor that we've had on the podcast a couple of times who has repeatedly said, You need to still have those conversations with your loved one. Yep. Just because they're not physically here. And he stresses to write to them, but whether you just talk to them while you're in the car and their picture is next to you or you write to them or whatever it is, he says it's very positive and a very healing thing to do. It

Carol Wolfe: 36:23

is. It is. And that's part of my faith is not letting go of him. Have them conversations. And my sister, she lost her husband and she said, you know, he has to listen to me now. And I'd looked at Josh and on the way here I said, you have to listen to me for hours. So it did help make the ride a little bit better.

Angela Kennecke: 36:50

Whether it's talking out loud or quietly journaling, life coach Lynn Gillette emphasizes the importance of finding personal ways to stay connected.

Lynn Gillette: 37:05

And so what's been helpful for me and the people that I serve is finding the ways to stay or be connected in new ways. So for instance, I love to ask my brother to give me a sign. Just give me a sign that you are here, that you see how well the girls are doing. And sometimes I'll ask for a specific sign and sometimes I don't. I just ask him for a sign. And this is no joke. Yesterday, you know, the podcast has been on my mind. It's my first time doing a podcast. Well, you're doing great. Oh, thank you. But here I am sharing about my brother and Annie and the girls. And so I feel a great sense of responsibility to make sure that I honor them and as I also want to honor and help people. And so. I just said to him yesterday, you know, show me a sign that you're with me and, and help me to do a really good job of, of telling our story and also helping others. And I was in a store and I had just come out of the store and this is no, no kidding. I was walking to my car and there was a car parked and the license plate said four, the number four, auntie. And I was like an aunt of four. I just was like. It just made me smile, and it makes me feel a connection. That's how I choose to stay connected to my brother, and it helps my heart heal. And that doesn't mean that I don't have those moments of overwhelming grief. I was doing laundry the other day, and I was pulling out one of the girl's clothes out of the dryer, and I pull out one of my brother's shirt, because she likes to sleep in his shirt. And When I pulled the shirt out, I could see him wearing the shirt. I remember him wearing a shirt and the tears just came and I let them fall and I, I went into the family room and I just held his shirt and I just kind of curled up and I, I cried and I let those tears out and I honored how I was feeling. It's not about pressing these feelings down whatsoever because Right. What we resist will persist.

Angela Kennecke: 39:19

Well, and it comes out in different ways. It comes out in the form of disease. It comes out, you know, in all kinds of different ways. So when you do have that, and I agree with you, cause I'll have those moments, I call them waves of grief, right? Where you just see something or you look at something and remember something and it just hits you. The loss hits you all over again. And I have learned just let myself cry. And sometimes it's just for a couple minutes and then I'm like, okay, I'm okay. Now I can go and do this thing or do that other thing. But I think we all in this culture, we're told just to move on, to not think about it, talk about it anymore. Historically, Americans have dealt with grief in this way, and I think that's completely wrong. I like to talk about her, and I'm thinking about her holidays, and so I'll talk about her. And sometimes that makes people uncomfortable. But I think it's so important that you don't worry about what other people think or don't worry about what you're supposed to do, but you just feel those feelings.

Lynn Gillette: 40:13

Right. And I think we've all heard, or most of us have heard that saying, it's okay to not be okay. And I love the sentiment behind it. It's, it's really about not judging yourself or judging others and, and being able to have those emotions and it's okay to not be okay. But I'm also learning that it's okay to be okay. It's okay to live and enjoy life because again, both things can be true. I can miss my brother and I can love experiencing milestones with his girls. And I had to learn that because I think about one of the milestones and it just, it was really tough. And that's when I really started realizing I need to figure out a way that it's okay to be okay and not feel guilt. And I had taken his youngest daughter to her first day of school here. And she was in fourth grade, and it was still cool and okay for her to give me a hug and, you know, a peck on the cheek at her classroom door. And as soon as she got into her classroom, I went to turn around to walk back to my car, and at that time I was a principal, so I, you know, I needed to get to my school. And all of a sudden, I felt this enormous, it was not even a wave, it was a tsunami of complete guilt that this should be my brother. It was her. bringing her to school, not, not me. This should be him getting the hug and the kiss. And, and I was like, Oh my gosh, I could just feel it coming. And I thought I just need to get somewhere private. Cause I could just feel it coming on. I knew if I could get to the school office, I had a friend who worked in the office and I walked in and she saw me and got up and put her arms around me. And I didn't have to say a word. She said to me, you think this should be your brother? And I said, yeah, I do. And. I think about our oldest, her first birthday with us was a monumental birthday. It was her 16th birthday. And again, the, the guilt. The missing out, what he's

Angela Kennecke: 42:12

missing out on and you get to enjoy it, right? Yeah. And you feel like you shouldn't enjoy it. And I, I have another mother that I know who lost A daughter about five years ago and has been so like she just will not allow herself to enjoy anything, right? It's always she's always sad. It's like the funeral is happening every single day And I think that's very unhealthy place but I think part of that is out of guilt like I can't go out and Laugh and have fun if I don't have my if my daughter's dead You know, I think that you have to continue to live because your loved one would want that. Your loved one would be glad that you were experiencing these things, right? Absolutely. Just like you would be if you were gone. I mean, if I was gone, I'd want my kids to keep living and enjoying life and fulfill their purpose. But it's really hard. Conflicting emotions are so hard.

Lynn Gillette: 43:02

They are. And that's one of the things that I help people with is, first of all, just even understanding And then eventually accepting that, Oh my gosh, both can be true.

Angela Kennecke: 43:14

Right.

Lynn Gillette: 43:14

Absolutely. Both can be true. And when I allowed myself to sink into that new thought of it's okay to be okay, again, it allowed me to show up for the girls in a way that they deserve. They deserve me to be happy and energetic and thinking about them and creating a wonderful memory for them.

Angela Kennecke: 43:41

Well, and you are showing them how to live after loss as well. You're role modeling that for them. And they won't know how to do it if you can't do it. Right. Absolutely. Heather Stang specializes in teaching others to live after loss. The thanatologist, or grief expert, founded the Mindfulness and Grief Institute. She has also written books on the subject and uses yoga and mindfulness to support people through their grief.

Heather Stang: 44:16

The real heart to me of mindfulness, when you are deep in grief, is to be able to say this really hurts, I am suffering. I'm going to hone in on the places that hurt. not go to the past and figure out what I could have done differently or the future, not go to these delusional places that you can't change. And I'm, I'm using delusional in a loving way. I do it. I'm not saying that's pathological. That's normal. That's the normal human brain. In fact, mindfulness, we're asking the mind to be abnormal and stay present and just sit and hold the space without adding fuel to the fire or adding suffering on top of suffering and look at the truth of what really hurts. And there's a technique I want to, rather than being kind of, you know, just giving these words out, the technique that I think is one of the most powerful techniques, if and when you are feeling like you can do it, because it's important to say that there are times where looking at your suffering is too painful. And there are meditation teachings for that. I think when you dive into that grief, it feels like you just might die yourself, right? It absolutely does. And that's when you need a stabilizing meditation, something that doesn't make you think, something that gives you a break. But what you were going to talk about is when, when you are ready to face that grief, face

Angela Kennecke: 45:48

that emotion

Heather Stang: 45:49

and pain head on. Yes. And so this surprised me when I first learned it, but it was to go to the body. Okay. And it kind of, I think, alluded to that a few minutes ago, instead of going to the mind or trying to solve something that can't be solved, is you say, you know, what, what is my physical experience of anxiety? I use anxiety a lot because I think that's like a real big one with, with grief.

Angela Kennecke: 46:18

Grief is a universal experience that almost all of us will face, whether through personal loss or supporting loved ones in their sorrow. Businesswoman, Natalie Eisenberg, started a passion project to educate others about grief following her mother's death.

Natalie Eisenberg: 46:39

So this is one of those things that I, I know I fell down on before I learned this personally. So, of course I had people in my life lose parents or lose loved ones. I maybe didn't even go to the visitation. You know, I maybe didn't even send a card. Because my thought process was like, well, I didn't know their dad, you know, that kind of thing. And maybe I sent a text message or something like that. But so the showing up, I just can't believe the feeling of seeing some people at those events that you maybe didn't expect somebody from, you know, a past professional relationship to show up or friendship from a long time ago and they show up. And it just, it was so meaningful to, to have those experiences. So now I know when somebody in my life. experiences is I am definitely going to show up and I'm definitely going to go to the visitation. Even if I didn't know the person who passed, it's all about the survivor, you know, the surviving family and loved ones. I used to

Angela Kennecke: 47:34

think, Oh, I don't like funerals. You know, I don't like funerals. I used to think, well, why would I go to that? Yeah. I didn't know their parent or whatever. And that has completely changed for me that I will always show up if someone I know has lost somebody, even if I didn't know their loved one. But I think a lot of people feel the way that you and I felt before this thing happened to us.

Natalie Eisenberg: 47:55

It's uncomfortable, you know, it's a little bit of an uncomfortable setting, but it's the most uncomfortable is for the people who lost the loved ones. So just show up, absolutely show up. And a text message is awesome. Every single acknowledgement is meaningful.

Angela Kennecke: 48:10

I think, like, I don't remember the text, I remember getting texts, but I can't tell you who texts me and who didn't during that time, of course, this was a sudden death, I wasn't prepared for this, I don't know if you have a better memory than I do, since you knew this was happening, or if this is for, like, for everybody, remembering who texts me is not necessarily something, I mean, I probably appreciated the texts at the time, and I knew I was getting that support or those vibes being sent my way, but I did save the cards, and I do know I believe I remember almost everybody who showed up at the visitation and or the funeral. It's important to remember that everyone's grief journey is unique and it is truly a journey. Healing takes time, so be patient with yourself. Here's Derek Kidd, whose 17 year old son died after he took half of a pill of what he thought was a Percocet. It ended up being a deadly amount of fentanyl.

Deric Kidd: 49:09

What I have found is you learn to live with it and the more experiences you have, the easier it is to cope with it. There are certain things it took doing things that first, second, and third time for me to finally feel like, okay, I can do this. And this might be a poor example, but even listening to a song, I couldn't do it. I had to turn it off and then I'd listen to a little more and a little more and I'd cry during the first few times and eventually I got to a point to where I could get through it and my experiences are the same with that as well. There are some things that I haven't been able to do yet and there are some things that little by little I've been able to try to get out there. You know, fishing was a passion of mine with our son and I haven't been fishing since. I'm just not there yet. But the day to day stuff, you know, little by little, you just learn how to, hopefully you do. Not everybody's the same, but hopefully you learn how to cope with it and deal with it on a daily basis.

Angela Kennecke: 50:06

Mm hmm. Right. Everybody's grief journey is different. It's unique to them.

Deric Kidd: 50:12

I remember an interview that they did with Billy Bob Thornton, and he talked about his brother passing away. And he talked about the pain that he lived with and that he endured. And he said, if I have to be 50 percent happy and 50 percent sad all the time, I'm going to do it because he was worth it. And I agree with that.

Angela Kennecke: 50:38

Jenny Orr, who lost her 15 year old daughter, Kelsey, to fentanyl poisoning, read a poem that touched my heart. It's called Still Shining by Jay Raymond from The Kindred Project, Volume 2. I'd like you just to take a listen and see if it also touches your heart. I could allow the grief to bury me alive. Just let the loss of you crush whatever's left of me. But you're not a memory. You're a light still shining, burning bright, and something I carry with me. When I speak of you, I do so without remorse. I beam with pride. I speak of your exuberance. I give them your energy. I tell them you were art embodied, dancing avant garde, bold and beautiful. Where you went, sunshine followed. I tell them you made life musical. Every smile, a song, every laugh, a celebration, your life, your light, changed me in the greatest of ways. All the love shared between us doesn't cease simply because you're not beside me, you're within me. My skin and bones, my heart and soul, the air I breathe, the sun I stand beneath. You are all around, you are everything that made me. And that sort of light never fades. I'll take all the love we share and continue sharing. As we wrap up this special episode of Words of Wisdom, Surviving Grief, I want to express my deepest gratitude to everyone who has shared their personal stories of loss and healing. Hearing these voices, reminds us that while grief is a deeply personal journey, it's also a universal experience that really connects us all through their courage and vulnerability. We're reminded there is no right or wrong way to grieve, only our own way. The wisdom shared today speaks to the heart of what it means to live with loss, to honor our loved ones by continuing to live, to find meaning in our memories. and to allow ourselves the space and time to heal. Grief doesn't get smaller, but as we've heard, we do get bigger. We grow around it, we integrate it, and eventually we find a way to move forward with it as part of our story. I hope that this podcast has offered you comfort, connection, and hope. Remember, grief is not a journey we take alone. Please reach out, share your story, allow others to walk beside you. Healing comes not from forgetting, but from remembering with more love than pain. You know you have begun to heal when the thought of your loved one brings a smile to your face before the tears begin to flow. Thank you for listening. For being part of this conversation and for allowing me to share these words of wisdom with you today. May we all continue to find strength and meaning as we navigate the complexities of grief. Until our next episode of Grieving Out Loud, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Wannenberg King and Kaylee Fitz.