[00:00:00] Angela Kennecke: Should drug dealers face prison time? It's a contentious issue with strong opinions on both sides. For years, law enforcement typically described deaths from drugs as accidental overdoses. However, with a record surge in fentanyl related fatalities in the United States, Attitudes are evolving. Here are just a few of the parents who are grieving after their children, thinking they were taking a prescription drug like Percocet or Oxycodone, ended up consuming a deadly dose of the powerful synthetic opioid fentanyl instead.

Oftentimes, they buy these pills through social media. 

[00:00:46] Bridgette Norring: It was an actual ring of just young adults, Devon's age, in our community selling these pills. via Snapchat. 

[00:00:55] Chris Didier: Zach was at our mall with his friends. They were all connecting through Snapchat because there's a, a geo tag type of mapping feature where you can see your friends.

Well, the drug dealers are also doing that. And what we learned is the dealer was there advertising. 

[00:01:12] Amy Neville: Death blindsided us. Like, death was not on the radar. We thought we were still dealing with the narrative that was still being promoted at the time that, you know, someone is stealing grandma's pills and selling it to friends.

[00:01:22] Angela Kennecke: Today's guest. Matt Capilouto lost his child in a similar way. Not only did he fight for justice in his daughter's death, he is also at the forefront of changing legislation to ensure that those who knowingly sell deadly drugs face prison time. 

[00:01:39] Matt Capelouto: Less than 2 percent all drug deaths result in the conviction of a drug dealer.

There's this notion that locking up drug dealers you know, has no effect on this problem. How can you say that when 98 plus percent of them get away with it?

[00:02:05] Angela Kennecke: This is Grieving Out Loud. I'm your host, Angela Kennecke. I've seen firsthand how devastating the fentanyl epidemic can be. I lost my daughter Emily when she was just 21 to the powerful synthetic opioid fentanyl. By sharing our stories here, I hope that we can shed light on this heartbreaking issue and prevent more lives from being lost.

Well, Matt, thank you for being a guest on Grieving Out Loud. It's great to meet you. 

[00:02:40] Matt Capelouto: Thank you. You too, Angela. 

[00:02:41] Angela Kennecke: I would like to just dive into our conversation because we both have experienced A very similar loss. I mean, there are some details, of course, that are not the same. I lost my 21 year old daughter a year before you lost your 20 year old daughter, Alex, under the same circumstances to fentanyl poisoning.

We actually knew that my daughter was suffering probably from substance use disorder. The signs were there. And we were three days away from holding an intervention. We didn't know what she was using, but she certainly wasn't intending to use fentanyl. And I know that was the case with your daughter as well.

She wasn't intending to use fentanyl. 

[00:03:19] Matt Capelouto: Yeah, and thanks for sharing that with me about your daughter. And one of the sad circumstances of this is, had our kids been part of any other generation, they likely wouldn't have died. They might have taken something, maybe suffering from addiction and went down that road.

But they would be alive. They just happened to end up in this era of fentanyl. 

[00:03:41] Angela Kennecke: You're a hundred percent correct. I always talk with people about, in fact, when I was struggling with some of my daughter's behavior, people used to say to me, Oh, I had a sister who was kind of wild, you know, and she kind of did some things she shouldn't have done, but you know, she, she, she grew out of it.

Your daughter's going to be fine. I had lots of judges and principals and lots of people tell me. Oh, your daughter comes from a good home with family that loves her. She's going to be fine. I mean, everybody thought she was just going to be fine, even though she was engaging in some risky behavior. Right?

And you're right, 20 or 30 years ago, just because you tried some drugs or you did something, it was not a death sentence like it is today. 

[00:04:22] Matt Capelouto: I don't even think that far back. I think we really go back about 10 years and chances are, you know, in my daughter's case, she was seeking Percocet. And you go back 10 years and she likely would have gotten real Percocet instead of the counterfeit pill that she received.

[00:04:38] Angela Kennecke: And I have interviewed so many parents whose kids thought they were taking Percocet. I mean, this is just like, it's story after story after story. They got these pills off of Snapchat. They took one, maybe for the first or second time sometimes, and they died. I mean, and this is basically your daughter's story too, right?

[00:04:58] Matt Capelouto: Yeah.

[00:05:03] Angela Kennecke: Matt's nightmare started during what should have been a joyful occasion. It was 2019 and his 20 year old daughter, Alexandra, was home from winter break from Arizona State University. 

[00:05:16] Matt Capelouto: She had gotten herself into college on a full academic scholarship. She's a very bright young lady, very intelligent. Her IQ was off the charts, but she suffered from depression.

She definitely had some issues, some mental struggles, depression, anxiety, which we learned of at a early in her teenage years and had gotten her help for that, you know, as she got older, we thought she kind of had a grip on things and everything was going okay. She was doing well in school. She started applying for jobs and thought she was really on the right track.

[00:05:47] Angela Kennecke: I think that sounds like so many, so many people I've talked to over the last few years. I mean, the stories have different names. You can change some of the circumstances around it, but there's. Always so much similarity and the kids themselves often very gifted. You know, my daughter was gifted in many areas, athletics, academics, art.

I've talked to so many parents, their kids were gifted. They were amazing people. And yes, maybe they did suffer from depression or anxiety. It seems to be so prevalent among today's youth. And they're seeking just to feel better, or they're experimenting, or they just make a decision, you know, based on one rash moment.

It can be one or the other, a combination. When

it comes to what happened to Alexandra, Matt believes his daughter was just trying to relax and get a good night's sleep. 

[00:06:38] Matt Capelouto: Just earlier that day, she was talking to her mom about having problems with sleeping, and we really think she just wanted a good night's sleep. Reached out to a drug dealer on Snapchat.

purchased what was represented to her is oxycodone pills and took half of one before going to bed and my wife found her dead in her bedroom the next morning.

[00:07:06] Angela Kennecke: Just two days before Christmas. 

[00:07:10] Matt Capelouto: I had gotten up and gone to work, my typical morning routine. I'm a small business owner in Temecula, California, and I own a print shop. And I was just pulling in my driveway when I got a call from my youngest daughter, Sky, who just said, Dad, get home, Alex is dead. And of course, the worst, you know, thing any parent can hear.

and terrible that her sister had to be the one to make that phone call to her dad. Alex had only been home for a couple days on Christmas break and she had forgotten her phone charger at school so she borrowed my wife's and my wife needed her phone charger back the next morning so she went in her room to get it and and there was Alex just dead on on her bed and you know I came home and right away obviously and there was medics, a sheriff, deputy here at her house and After a relatively short, you know, investigation or whatever they do when they initially show up on one of these scenes, the deputy sat my wife and I down and said, I'm, I'm sorry, your daughter died of a drug overdose.

And he had mentioned that it looked like it could be fentanyl. And my wife and I, we didn't really know anything about fentanyl at the time. This stems back to 2019. We certainly didn't have the awareness that we have now. But he had also mentioned that he found some pills and it appeared she consumed half a pill because he found half on the dresser.

And it immediately triggered with my wife. She was questioning him, like, you know, Overdose, did, did you take the whole bottle of pills? You know, you said it looks like you took half a pill. And that's when he explained it could be fentanyl and the potency of fentanyl. Despite the state of shock we were obviously in, we knew something was different about this.

This was not a traditional overdose. 

[00:08:57] Angela Kennecke: And you're right. When you hear overdose, you think, oh, they took too much of whatever drug or they maybe were in recovery and went back to the same amount they used before. And that's considered an overdose, right? And then here, it sounds to me like Alex was trying to be careful taking half a pill.

[00:09:12] Matt Capelouto: Yeah, that's what I wholeheartedly believe. And she made a poor choice, but not an evil choice. And. I, right away, was wanting to know who provided this to her. There was really no criminal investigation taking place from the get go. It was over the course of the next couple weeks where things were really setting in with me.

And we happened to have three other deaths during this time. Temecula is a mid sized town. We found out about three other young victims that had died in roughly a 15 day period. But this is when I started to speak out and really question what was going on here. We had to go back a couple weeks later to clean out my daughter's dorm where she was living at school.

And I had made it a point that I was going to find the drug dealer who provided this, and I was going to get justice one way or another. When she was at home, she didn't have her car out here. She flew home. She'd only been home a day or two. The only place she went was that day with my wife, Christmas shopping.

For So we thought for sure she had to have brought it home from school. So that's why it was my point to go there and find out who the drug dealer was at her school or in her apartment complex. 

[00:10:30] Angela Kennecke: Have you lost a loved one to overdose or fentanyl poisoning? I'd like to invite you to share their story on our new Emily's Hope Memorial website called More Than Just a Number.

They were our children, siblings, cousins, husbands, wives, aunts, uncles. And friends so much more than just a number. You can submit a memorial today on more than just a number.org.

While he was on the college campus, Matt couldn't find any information about his daughter's death, but he managed to get into her phone. 

[00:11:07] Matt Capelouto: That's when we saw the conversation that she had with the drug dealer on Snapchat. And like I said, we had been made aware of three other deaths that happened during this time.

Two other deaths were of young people that went to her same high school. So, with this information, I called the detective back that came to our house, and I asked if he was aware of these other deaths. Also made him aware that we got the identification of this guy on my daughter's phone. He agreed to come back and speak with us, which he did.

He took and gathered the evidence, and he said, you know, I can't promise anything, you know, even if I find, identify the drug dealer, it's highly unlikely that he will be prosecuted because we don't really have good laws here in California to prosecute him under. What about federally? Yeah, so when I had heard that it was unlikely that he'd be prosecuted, I wrote a letter to our district attorney, Mike Hestron.

I said, my daughter didn't die of an overdose. She was poisoned. Had she received the Percocet that she thought she was getting, she's alive today. And he agreed, but then he explained that, you know, we don't have good laws here in California for these kind of deaths. This would be a challenging case.

[00:12:26] Angela Kennecke: Still, Matt was relieved when the District Attorney and Sheriff agreed that his daughter's death wasn't accidental, but murder. They decided to pursue the investigation. 

[00:12:37] Matt Capelouto: They went full force. Our district attorney, our sheriff, they put together a fentanyl task force. Within roughly a year and a half of us having this meeting with our district attorney, they had filed the first murder charges against a fentanyl dealer.

And since then, we have now, I think we're up to 34 murder charges here against fentanyl dealers. And these are state charges. These are state charges in the state of California. Yeah, these are state charges and I want to delve into this because other states that have bad laws can do things similar to how they're doing in them here.

But our case was handed over to the feds for federal prosecution. We were one of the first cases here in Riverside County where a drug dealer was charged with distribution of fentanyl resulting in death. Two years to the week after. losing our daughter. The drug dealer was arrested on those charges and he's in federal prison right now.

[00:13:29] Angela Kennecke: Two years may seem like a long time, but the Drug Enforcement Administration says that it usually takes two years from arrest to sentencing. One of the reasons prosecuting these cases can be a challenge. 

[00:13:43] Matt Capelouto: Here's some key things people need to understand about California and the way it works in many other states that don't have specific drug induced homicide statutes.

Prosecution is left with two burdens. Number one, you have to prove that the drug dealer knew what they were selling, and they have to be able to prove that the drug dealer knew the drugs they were selling could result in someone's death. It's very challenging. Exactly. Exactly. And that's why 

[00:14:13] Angela Kennecke: they turned it over to the feds.

[00:14:15] Matt Capelouto: Yes, because on the federal side, you don't have to prove that the drug dealer knew that the drugs could result in death. You just have to prove that they knew what they were doing was illegal. And that's why they 

[00:14:26] Angela Kennecke: Yeah, I have a lot of experience with this because unlike you, right after, and this was 2018, so actually this is probably pretty progressive of the prosecutors in my state.

The local sheriff's police turned it over immediately to the feds, the case of when my daughter died when she was poisoned by fentanyl, and there were actually four people related to her death that are all charged under federal laws and all went to prison. What was so interesting about her case, and I won't go on too long because I want you to talk more about your efforts and what you're trying to do to change these laws, because we don't have a drug induced homicide law in my state either.

That's why they were so swift to turn it over to the feds, and I guess I'm lucky. I didn't have to go out and find the dealers myself. They did an investigation. They did what they were supposed to do. And I hear from so many parents where nobody's arrested, there's no case, I hear that over and over again.

In the case of the lower level dealer who sold it to, my daughter's had a new boyfriend and sold it to him, he actually overdosed on the same day as my daughter, fentanyl poisoning. But that happened to him in a public restroom, so he was saved. And my daughter was alone in a room with a locked door, so she was not saved.

So he was charged in relation to her death and others, and he received 10 years, but he also, I had some compassion for this guy because he was suffering from addiction. He was selling to feed his own habit, and I just hope that he got help in prison. But it was the higher level dealers above him who were bringing crack, cocaine, and heroin laced with fentanyl into my community from Chicago.

Those guys never used their own product. And I sat through two weeks of federal trial with these guys, with many other parents. There were at least seven people they were charged with killing with their products, but there were many more who they did kill. You know, they couldn't bring charges for all of them.

And I was relieved that they were sentenced one to 20 years and another to life in prison. But these were all federal charges, and I think that's very unusual. And then the boyfriend who obtained Drugs. He was later charged on a federal charge as well, because he had passed on drugs to someone else who had died.

So that's kind of like summing it all up as quickly as I can for you, but I think that's very unusual. 

[00:16:43] Matt Capelouto: Yeah, and kind of a lot to cover there. And, you know, one of the things I want to mention is that, you know, even when somebody is suffering from addiction and they're selling drugs to support their habit, I don't think we can let that be an excuse.

Oh, 

[00:17:00] Angela Kennecke: no. 

[00:17:00] Matt Capelouto: Yeah, when you cross a line from using drugs to selling drugs, you cross a line from needing help to needing to be held accountable. Yeah. An analogy I use is, would you let a drunk driver who killed somebody not have to be held accountable if they're an alcoholic? 

[00:17:20] Angela Kennecke: No, I agree with you. I'm not saying that gives him a pass, but I do think it made me more compassionate.

Actually, I really understood during those two weeks of trial when all these people came to testify who were in prison because they were dealing to someone else. They came to testify against his higher level dealers, and I began to have maybe much more compassion and understand why they were doing what they were doing, not excuse it.

They kept talking about how they were helping out their friend, helping out someone. And we've normalized 

[00:17:50] Matt Capelouto: that. And that's part of the problem too, because we've been really lax on this whole issue for, for decades. And, you know, I, I want to shift that stigma away from drug use to drug dealing. In this age of synthetic drugs that cause instant death, there should be no greater stigma than that if you are peddling this poison on our streets, whether, you know, you're suffering from substance use disorder or not.

But going back to some of the things you said in there that I think we need to touch on is the fact is that most people do not get justice in these cases. Most of these deaths, it's not the feds that show up, it is your local law enforcement, your police or sheriffs. And more times than not, although I think we are making some progress, these cases are just looked at as accidental overdoses and the burden of blame is on the user.

And our kids are not seen as victims. That's what we have to change. There's no doubt our kids are victims. And if they're victims, there's a crime that's been committed. And that's where it all starts, is with law enforcement viewing these cases, when they show up, as criminal. Not mark immediately. You know, just rolling them as accidental overdoses and they need to be investigated as homicides so information can be gathered right away and we have our best chances of getting these people off the streets.

[00:19:10] Angela Kennecke: I often say if people were going around lacing alcoholic drugs in a bar with fentanyl and people were dropping dead in bars because they were drinking a glass of alcohol that we would be dead. you know, shocked and outraged in this country. We put an end to this, but you're right, because of all the stigma surrounding the use of any kind of illicit drug, we're not doing enough.

[00:19:36] Matt Capelouto: Right. And that's changing it. I'm proud to say, and kind of toot the horns of my local law enforcement here in Riverside County, that we're doing that now, but our sheriff has gone on record and said every fentanyl death will be investigated as a potential homicide. And we need other law enforcement agencies to start doing that nationwide.

And despite our bad laws here, with a proper investigation, these people can be held accountable. Remember, not only in California, but in many other states that don't have specific drug abuse homicide statutes, you have to find that evidence of what's legally known as implied malice. That the person knew what they were doing was dangerous.

And they disregarded that knowledge and did it anyways. And with a proper investigation, going through social media records, looking at this person's own background, in many cases they can find this evidence. They find, in many of the cases that are making their way through the court process right now, they have these people in their own words admitting to knowing that fentanyl is deadly.

[00:20:39] Angela Kennecke: Yeah, I have a friend whose son died and the dealer who provided, it was just a couple of what they thought were Percocet pills, he and a friend both died together, they used them for the first time and that dealer did admit that he knew that his pills had fentanyl and that, that case was actually working its way through state court, but the state laws, they're more difficult to prove and I don't think the penalties are as strong, 

[00:21:00] Matt Capelouto: always.

Right. And that's what we need to change. We're working on something called Alexandra's law here in California. which will help, you know, fill that gap. Alexandra's Law has also been introduced federally. Representative Daryl Iza has brought it forward at the federal level, so it's making its way through the system there as well.

[00:21:18] Angela Kennecke: So tell me about the law. What are the main core principles of it? 

[00:21:23] Matt Capelouto: Yeah, Alexandra's Law is actually pretty simple. You know, we're talking about how you have to prove that knowledge that the dealer knew, because right now it's too easy of a defense. For a drug dealer just to say, I didn't know. And even if they're lying, it's difficult.

How do you prove their mindset? What you know, they know in their head. How do you bring that forth as actual evidence? Very difficult to do. So Alexander's law is pretty simple. If somebody is arrested and convicted of a drug related offense, they're going to get an admonishment read to them in court by a judge.

And that judge is going to make them aware of the dangers of fentanyl. And if. They continue to furnish it or they're involved with giving it to somebody who dies as a result, they can be held accountable for murder. So, number one, my hope is that it works as a strong deterrent. Once somebody has this admonishment, my hope is that it's not ever being used against them to hold them accountable.

Because by the time we get to that point, that means somebody's died. Somebody's dead on the other end. I want it to serve as a deterrent for this person to change their ways, not continue down a life of drugs, or even if they do, at least make sure you're not selling something that's going to result in somebody's death.

But if they don't, if they continue and somebody dies as a result of their continued action, prosecutors now have the evidence they need to hold this person accountable for that death and put them behind bars. 

[00:22:57] Angela Kennecke: And how is it being received in California? 

[00:23:00] Matt Capelouto: We've had challenges, despite the majority last year of our legislature being in support of this law.

It keeps getting killed in our public safety committee. We have five members on this committee. We have to first get three of them to support it, to pass to the full Senate to vote and weigh in on. And we can't get three members of this safety committee to support it. Why not? We're in California. It's absurd.

I think a lot of it, again, is they put the burden of blame on the drug user rather than the dealer and want to address things from a complete harm reduction point of view, and there are many aspects of harm reduction, which I support, but at some level, you have to hold these people who are furnishing these drugs accountable, and they just don't want to do that here in California.

And, uh, a statistic that is not talked about nearly enough is less than 2 percent of all drug deaths result in the conviction of a drug dealer. There's this notion that locking up drug dealers, you know, has no effect on this problem. How can you say that when 98 plus percent of them get 

[00:24:11] Angela Kennecke: away with 

[00:24:12] Matt Capelouto: it?

[00:24:14] Angela Kennecke: Some states have started charging these dealers who peddle druggly fentanyl with murder. But as Matt mentioned, it's still rare. Many guests on Grieving Out Loud, such as Brady Harris and Nathan from last week's episode, haven't seen justice in the courtroom for their loved one's death. And was anyone charged in his death?

[00:24:36] Bradi Harrison Nathan: No one was charged. Why? We still stay. I don't know where he got it from. Somebody knows. Somebody knows. Somebody knows. 

[00:24:47] Angela Kennecke: Matt thinks that since so few people are actually charged, it only encourages more drug trafficking. He believes the risk needs to outweigh the reward to make a real difference. 

[00:24:58] Matt Capelouto: And right now that's not the case.

People are making too much money off of this. We've seen this explosion of street level dealers who are really driving this problem and they're not being addressed or held accountable. People, I think, misconstrue a street level dealer with being a low end drug dealer. There is nothing low end about causing a death.

And that's where we need to start. We can talk about the cartels south of our border. We can talk about China, you know, manufacturing a precursor in all of this. I don't think we're going to have much luck addressing it in other countries. I think it starts here at home. We need to start holding those accountable here.

[00:25:44] Angela Kennecke: In addition to holding drug traffickers accountable, I believe we need to reduce the demand for illicit drugs. This involves educating people about the dangers of these substances and providing treatment for those suffering from substance use disorder. At Emily's Hope, we've launched a K 5 substance use prevention curriculum to to educate young minds about the risks of substance use.

This engaging, age appropriate program aims to lay the foundation for a healthier future. Just visit emilyishopeedu. org to learn more and help bring this essential resource to your local schools. 

[00:26:23] Matt Capelouto: Yeah, no doubt about it. It's a supply and, and demand issue. But it seems like in California the focus is, is solely on demand.

And we need to address this from the supply side as well. But I also want to mention, Alexandra's Law looks like it's actually going to get to be on the November 2024 ballot here in California for people to vote on. We gathered signatures, just turned in last week, over 900, 000 signatures. We need 587, 000 to get it qualified.

Alexandra's Law is part of a broader measure known as the Homelessness, Drug Addiction, and Theft Reduction Act. That's the ballot measure that addresses a handful of California's problems. The people behind this measure saw the importance of Alexander's Law, so they brought this into the measure. 

[00:27:10] Angela Kennecke: Well, congratulations on that.

You've got to find another door in, right? So if it's not working getting through the legislature, this is, uh, bring it to a public vote and good for you. I really hope that it passes. 

[00:27:21] Matt Capelouto: Thank you. Yeah, it'll make a difference and I'll be much more satisfied with this passing by the people than those who are running the state who just seem to be, continue to kick this can down the road without doing anything.

[00:27:35] Angela Kennecke: Along with working to change the law, Matt is also president of the Drug Induced Homicide Foundation. The organization helps people who've lost loved ones to illicit drugs, push law enforcement and prosecutors to hold the dealers accountable. For more information visit www. FEMA. gov You can find more details about the foundation in our show notes.

While you're there, please take a moment to rate and review this podcast. 

[00:27:58] Matt Capelouto: We're here to support parents who are having trouble getting their cases handled criminally. We have a lot of experience in this. We have members all across our nation from different states who understand the different state laws, and we can be really an organization of support.

[00:28:14] Angela Kennecke: And has all of these efforts, have they helped you with your grief? I find all the things we're doing at Emily's Hope, it has really helped me in my grief. I always say helping others helps me so much. And you've lost your child. I mean, you cannot bring your child back. But hopefully you can prevent the deaths of other people's children.

I do 

[00:28:35] Matt Capelouto: think, you know, turning our pain into purpose certainly helps us deal with grief. There's nothing more debilitating than child loss, but on the flip side of that, there could be nothing more motivating either. It helps us to move forward, and the mission transcends our grief, and I, I believe, I, I don't know about you, I'm a person of faith.

I don't claim to have all the answers, but I wholeheartedly believe we're gonna see our kids again. We're gonna see the greater picture here, and this will have been done for a reason. 

[00:29:10] Angela Kennecke: Yeah, I, I, I hope so. I don't know that everything happens for a reason, but I think you can make meaning out of it. And you can choose to take these steps to try to push for changes and to try to make a difference.

So that this kind of pain and loss doesn't happen to others. And I think that's what you're doing. 

[00:29:30] Matt Capelouto: And vice versa. And there are so many parents, as you know, and you've interviewed, I'm, I'm sure, but I really commend the other parent warriors that are out there because it is because of us that change is happening.

[00:29:43] Angela Kennecke: That's right. That's right. I always say it takes all of us joining hands. you know, maybe we're in our own little parts of the world or parts of the country, but it takes all of us and all of our efforts and all of us working together and support each other and to try to make a difference. And this is where change usually happens, right?

And I always say we're at a tipping point now. Enough people's children have died, sadly, that we are at a tipping point where people have to be aware of this at this point. In 2018, 2019, when we lost our daughters, That may not have been the case. It was the number was going up. I remember when my daughter died.

It was 72, 000 people a year at the CDC. termed, had died from overdose, and we know most of those are fueled by fentanyl, and now that number is up to, uh, 112, 000 in a one year period of 2023. 

[00:30:32] Matt Capelouto: It's going to be odd, you know, probably shortly here to come across a family that has not been affected by this.

Right. I agree with you. 

[00:30:39] Angela Kennecke: I 

[00:30:39] Matt Capelouto: agree 

[00:30:39] Angela Kennecke: with you. Well, thank you for all the work you're doing. Will you keep me posted on what happens in November? I'm going to be trying to watch too to see what happens in the California election in November, but good for you. And I'm, I know Alex is very proud of you. 

[00:30:52] Matt Capelouto: I appreciate that.

And thank you for having me.

[00:31:01] Angela Kennecke: And thank you for taking time to learn more about one of the most pressing issues facing our country, this deadly fentanyl epidemic. For helpful resources and to listen to other podcast episodes, as well as read my blog, just head over to the Emily's Hope website, emilyshope. charity. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage.

This podcast is produced by Casey Wunderberg King and Anna Fye.