[00:00:00] Patricia Drewes: Her death just about devastated me. 

[00:00:14] Barb Walsh: There are days when you're like, good, I'm good, I'm good. And then all of a sudden you're not good. 

[00:00:19] Carol Wolfe: My heart hurts. 

[00:00:22] Angela Kennecke: Grief. It's a heart wrenching emotion that most of us will likely have to experience in our lifetime. Often we're unprepared for the overwhelming pain and sorrow.

And we struggle to know how to support friends who have lost loved ones. 

[00:00:35] Natalie Eisenberg: If I would have known even a little bit of what I know now, When I had friends who had loved ones pass away, I would have treated them a lot different. 

[00:00:43] Angela Kennecke: Today's guest on Grieving Out Loud is not only the CEO of one digital marketing agency, but two.

Natalie Eisenberg heads up operations at both Click Reign and Lemonly. But today we're talking to this businesswoman about her very personal passion project, teaching others about grief. 

[00:01:02] Natalie Eisenberg: Grief shows up in all of us, in the totality of who we are. And It changes us and changes us forever.

[00:01:22] Angela Kennecke: Well, Natalie, welcome to the podcast. We know each other, but it's great to have you on to talk about this subject. I mean, it's a, it's a heavy subject, but I'm so happy to talk to you about something different that I haven't talked to you about before. 

[00:01:35] Natalie Eisenberg: Thank you, Angela. Well, I've been a major follower of yours and I think you've been an inspiration to many of us as we're on our own grief journeys and eager to dig into this with you a little bit today.

[00:01:46] Angela Kennecke: And well, the podcast is called Grieving Out Loud because it is one of the things that when I first launched it that I really wanted to address was this subject of grief that seems so hidden and pushed down by our society. And I just thought, I am going to talk about it. And then also, obviously there's all the stigma and everything surrounding the opioid crisis and fentanyl and all of that.

But the grief piece, I think people feel grief is so incredibly isolating. 

[00:02:13] Natalie Eisenberg: I completely agree with you, and if I could have picked a theme for the way I'm feeling about grief, it's just that. It's grieving out loud. It's trying to bring light to this topic that is kind of brushed under the rug still, I think, a little bit, and it's just something that we haven't talked about a whole lot as a society, even though we've talked a lot about mental health.

I think this is definitely an aspect of mental health, and it's definitely a very trying time for our mental health. And so, just trying to bring a little more light to the topic as well. I think 

[00:02:47] Angela Kennecke: the problem is, is that people are afraid of grief. Like, they don't really want to admit that they may have to experience it someday.

They will, more than likely. I mean, more than likely, every single one of us. will experience this emotion, I guess you could call it an emotion, called grief, right? It's more than emotion. 

[00:03:06] Natalie Eisenberg: Yeah, it's this whole experience and I think you're right actually, you know, it's a scary thing, it's something that we don't want to face necessarily, you know, especially when we're young, we think we might get around it somehow.

But as our lives play out, maybe we realize a little more that we're not going to get around it and that we're going to run into it at some point in our lives. And sometimes maybe you could resonate with this, but I don't really want to be talking about grief. I wish I wasn't. I don't want to be. poster child for grief necessarily, but having experienced it over the last year or so myself really personally, it's just something that I feel like, wow, I didn't know a lot of this and I think more people should know.

[00:03:52] Angela Kennecke: Natalie's grief journey started about a year ago in May of 2023 when she lost her mom to pancreatic cancer. 

[00:04:01] Natalie Eisenberg: My mom, Bonnie Cheddar, who was, you know, an angel on earth. and did a lot with youth and with community, with their church. She was really a selfless lady and a really awesome mother. 

[00:04:15] Angela Kennecke: While Natalie is thankful to have had such an amazing role model, it made the cancer diagnosis a All the more devastating.

Her mom died just nine months later. 

[00:04:27] Natalie Eisenberg: It's an aggressive cancer, and so once we knew it was pancreatic, we knew that we didn't probably have a lot of time, and so you kind of begin that process of anticipatory grief, knowing what's coming. In this case, we could see it coming. So that whole nine months, I remember that Christmas was really, really hard for me.

It was probably harder than the Christmas after her loss, just because I knew it could be the last.

[00:04:54] Angela Kennecke: She says her mom's positive attitude made it a bit easier to bear. 

[00:04:59] Natalie Eisenberg: She had eternity in mind as she was facing this cancer, and the faith that we would once again be together. So that was a big part of her experience. And just, she also is and was a, just a strong woman. She had faced some adversity in her life.

Already, you know, she lost a husband at a very young age and she lost her parents at a pretty young age and she was a single mom for a period of time. And so she went through some hard things and as her daughter growing up, sometimes I would bring her hard things in my life. Her attitude was kind of like, and you can get through this and you will get through this.

And so with the cancer, it was very much, we're going to get through this too. We're going to enjoy every moment we have together and you guys are going to be okay. So, she was pretty encouraging, very strong. We had a couple of, like, more vulnerable moments, she and I, where we just had to sit and cry because we knew she was dying.

[00:06:01] Angela Kennecke: I think one of the worst things about cancer is the suffering that the patient has to go through. Did your mother have to suffer very much? I mean, the treatments themselves can be worse than the cancer and the body shutting down and dying. 

[00:06:16] Natalie Eisenberg: She was a trooper. The whole time, certainly, and I know that the treatments themselves were not comfortable, but toward the end, in fact, it was about Easter of last year, there was some major discomfort, and we had plans as a whole family to meet in Minneapolis where my brother lives for Easter, she just really wanted that to happen, and so she, I know she wasn't feeling good at all.

We all came from different places to meet in Minneapolis, and we actually sat down and had a really direct conversation as just kind of our immediate family over Easter, knowing that we were nearing the end. So yeah, she had some discomfort. I think my dad saw most of that as her primary caretaker. And so, you know, almost a year later, I think he still struggles with the pain that he saw her go through.

Oh yeah. 

[00:07:04] Angela Kennecke: You know, David Kessler, grief expert says that the first two years are early grief, early grief. I don't think society gives us that kind of grace in terms of time. But I can really see that that's the case with myself and almost everybody I work with who is grieving and we have a support group now at Emily's Hope and we're rather large of people who've lost.

It's usually a child, but a loved one to addiction or overdose, fentanyl poisoning. And so a lot of people have just lost somebody recently. And I just say, you know, it takes a lot of time to heal. Then you'll never, you know. be over it. It's not like it's just going to go away. 

[00:07:43] Natalie Eisenberg: How many years has it been now for you, Angela?

[00:07:46] Angela Kennecke: It's six years in May, which astounds me. It astounds me that I have survived six years and I have to say grief gets easier to carry. That is the way I think of it because I still carry it and something will touch me or affect me or a memory, that kind of thing, and I'll let myself cry for like two or three minutes And then I'll just go off my day like as if nothing happened, but I couldn't do that in year one or year two.

It was more debilitating. 

[00:08:16] Natalie Eisenberg: Absolutely. And even just what you're touching on with that good cry. I've learned even just in this last year, how necessary that is, you know, and you kind of, you're due for one almost, you're due for a good cry, and it's kind of like you're just under the surface and you can kind of feel yourself almost going there, but sometimes you're just not in a setting to do so, and so you have to find the right setting, be intentional about finding the right setting, and sometimes, you know, facing the photos or the song or whatever it is that actually brings the tears, because it does help people.

It does help to let them flow, right? It's a cleansing in a 

[00:08:53] Angela Kennecke: way, I think. 

[00:08:54] Natalie Eisenberg: And even though we had all those more positive death experiences, you know, certainly is still a huge loss to our family, a huge dynamic shift for our family and a big loss for our community. So I'm kind of a solver, you know, in business and in life.

I think I take after my dad and I like to fix things. And I was noticing this. experience of grief and that, wow, if I would have known even a little bit of what I know now, when I had friends who had loved ones pass away, I would have treated them a lot different. And so I wanted to try and bring light to that and teach people what it's like to be a griever and what feels good and what doesn't feel so good.

[00:09:36] Angela Kennecke: So did you start researching grief or what did you do? 

[00:09:40] Natalie Eisenberg: Well, I certainly was feeling it. And then I was getting all these grief resources from my church and from friends who had maybe lost a parent. sharing a book or resource that might be helpful to me. And then also had a lot of people reach out to me who had also lost parents.

So you have this new shared bond, just, you know, starting a little bit of a dialogue. And through all that, I just felt like there were some learnings. So I was kind of experiencing and studying at once, and it just got placed on my heart that I wanted to share more about how to best support grievers. 

[00:10:17] Angela Kennecke: I think this was probably a way for you to find meaning in your mother's death.

They say that is one thing that's, I mean, something that obviously I've done with the charity and with this podcast, but I mean, it's all different ways for us to find meaning in the loss of a loved one. Because It's really important that we do that, I think, when it comes to healing. 

[00:10:36] Natalie Eisenberg: Yes, finding the meaning, and part of it is just wanting to do right by her.

And my mom was a very hands on person. If there was something to be solved, she wanted it solved, and she was very giving to others as far as her time and her energy. And so some of that too, yeah, it's meaningful to me to do something around her death because I think it does honor her. Oh, I'm sure. 

[00:11:02] Angela Kennecke: And I really think that your mother also lives on through you.

She's definitely in your DNA. So, you probably have many of her personality traits and other things. And also, it strikes me that you were very fortunate to have such a wonderful mom and to be close to her, because not everybody gets that in life. Yeah. It's 

[00:11:20] Natalie Eisenberg: so true. I've had that realization too. Very blessed.

[00:11:28] Angela Kennecke: Natalie is now hoping to bless others by taking what she has learned about grief and turning it into a valuable resource. 

[00:11:35] Natalie Eisenberg: It actually began when some friends of mine were hosting a conference here at Sioux Falls. The conference is called CultureCon and they're really wanting topics that are relative to anyone in any business setting and culture.

With my work in business and focus in culture, I thought this was an important topic to bring forward. So I asked him if I could speak at CultureCon and that's what I really did the initial research for. And it was kind of a speed talk, I guess it was only about 20 minutes. And I. I hoped that maybe a couple people in the room would feel connected to my message, and I walked off the stage and I couldn't even make it to my table without having people come up to me and say, thank you.

Thank you. Thank you for raising this topic. And so it really opened my eyes to just how important it is to be talking about grief and how common it is in our lives and how so many people have experienced it. And we're thankful that we were looking at it from a griever's perspective 

[00:12:41] Angela Kennecke: to prepare for her speech.

Natalie created a survey to gather people's experiences with grief. About 70 people participated providing some insightful information. 

[00:12:52] Natalie Eisenberg: I asked people essentially, you know, what were helpful things that people did for you when you were grieving? Laurel, what was not so helpful? And any other thoughts you have, pretty much was the survey.

That was really the basis for my content. 

[00:13:06] Angela Kennecke: And the one thing that I see on your website that you talk about first, is what an all encompassing thing grief is that It's not just, like I talked about it being an emotion, but it's not just an emotion. 

[00:13:18] Natalie Eisenberg: Yeah, after I did the presentation, I wanted to kind of encapsulate the content in a little bit of a takeaway.

And so I built the website, learnaboutgrief. com. It just kind of outlines the things that I learned in this process. So grief shows up as, it's not just a feeling, it's actually thoughts, feelings, and actions. When we're grieving, our mind can be focused on just the grief for a period of time. I remember myself being in business meetings and.

Being pretty distracted and kind of foggy, it shows up as feelings, you know, and feelings all over the board. It's not just sadness. It's not just the emptiness. It can be, you know, no feelings at all. You might feel kind of numb. You know, it could be a relief for some people. So a range of feelings. And then in actions, you know, the things you do as you're experiencing grief could be all over the board too.

So the point there is that grief shows up in All of us in the totality of who we are and it changes us and changes us forever, probably more drastic at the beginning. And then that kind of can change over time. 

[00:14:26] Angela Kennecke: What has grief taught you? 

[00:14:28] Natalie Eisenberg: I think grief has taught me that I'm pretty small. The problems I have in the day to day are pretty small.

It has put so much in perspective for me and turned my focus toward loving more and caring more for other people. the people around me. 

[00:14:49] Angela Kennecke: It's interesting you say that because a fellow grieving mother was talking to me last night about she works in a customer service job and she has like no time for some of these complaints people.

She's like, this doesn't matter. Don't you understand this? How insignificant this is? And I think you sort of touched on that. Like it kind of puts life in perspective of what matters and what, what really matters and what doesn't. 

[00:15:14] Natalie Eisenberg: For a period of time, you know, some of the things that I Was maybe pretty controlling over in my life like the dinner schedule at our house You know, I pretty much managed that and did the grocery shopping and, you know, made sure that we were only having tacos once a week and not three, that kind of stuff.

But for a while there after my mom died, my husband was like, you know, what, what should we have for dinner? And I was just like, I don't care. It doesn't matter to me. Insignificant things are even more insignificant. 

[00:15:43] Angela Kennecke: And it's interesting you mentioned control because I know you're a successful business leader.

Probably I'm guessing a type A personality, which I'm really admit I am as well. And so control is a big part of that. And I heard a really interesting concept surrounding grief and guilt. And I was going to ask you if you ever felt any guilt, and I think most grievers do feel guilt at one point. Oh, I should have said this, or I should have done this, or if only I had done this.

And I heard that guilt during grief is a way for the mind to try to control. the situation because the mind needs control all the time in a situation that was completely out of our control. And it's so hard for many, many people to not have any control. And that that is really where guilt comes from is control.

[00:16:32] Natalie Eisenberg: That's pretty fascinating. I had never thought that way. Certainly had feelings of woulda shoulda done things a little bit differently. Absolutely. You know, one thing I. Wish I would have done was more like video interviewing with my mom. 

[00:16:48] Angela Kennecke: Oh, 

[00:16:48] Natalie Eisenberg: sure. Part of it for us was that, you know, we didn't really necessarily want to talk about the end.

We were focused on the living for that nine months that we had and didn't want to put a whole lot of attention to that reality. I do kind of wish that I had more video of her. I could hear her voice and more. More ways and but we didn't. So here we are. 

[00:17:12] Angela Kennecke: Yeah. And I think acceptance is a huge thing.

Accepting what is right, accepting that that is how you spent your time with her doing other things, right? That that's what is. And so acceptance is such a huge part of the process of grief. But it takes a while to get there. 

[00:17:30] Natalie Eisenberg: Yeah, it does. And some days, do you still have moments of disbelief? 

[00:17:36] Angela Kennecke: Yes. Where I'm like, I can't believe that she's gone.

Oh, but she is. I know she is. But I can't believe that this happened to our family. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think those will probably be with me for as long as I live. But I also think that is the mind's need to control things, you know, that we can't control. And so you also came up with some lists on your website of like how to help the grieving, what not to say.

Every grieving person I've talked to is like, Oh my God, I can't believe this person said this to me. I was so offended that somebody said this. One thing that I always say is that if somebody says the wrong thing to you, you kind of have to give them a pass because they really don't understand. I don't think most people are trying to be malicious.

Some people may be, but I don't think most people are trying to be malicious. Did anybody say anything to you or what things happened that you would say, don't do that if someone is greedy? I know showing up is a very important thing. Just showing up. 

[00:18:32] Natalie Eisenberg: Oh, yes. The showing up. So this is one of those things that I, I know I fell down on before I learned this personally.

So, of course, had people in my life lose parents or lose. Loved ones. I maybe didn't even go to the visitation. You know, I maybe didn't even send a card because my thought process was like, well, I didn't know their dad. You know, that kind of thing. And maybe I sent a text message or something like that.

But so the showing up, I just can't believe the feeling of seeing some people at those events that you maybe didn't expect somebody from, you know, a past professional relationship to show up or friendship from a long time ago. And they show up. It just, it was so meaningful to, to have those experiences.

So now I know when somebody in my life experiences this, I am definitely going to show up. And. I'm definitely going to go to the visitation, even if I didn't know the person who passed. It's all about the survivor, you know, the surviving family and loved ones. I used to think, Oh, I 

[00:19:30] Angela Kennecke: don't like funerals, you know, I don't like funerals.

I used to think, well, why would I go to that? Yeah, I didn't know their parent or whatever. And that has completely changed for me that I will always show up if someone I know has lost somebody, even if I didn't know their loved one. But I think a lot of people feel the way that you and I felt before this thing happened to us.

Yeah. so much. 

[00:19:50] Natalie Eisenberg: It's uncomfortable. You know, it's a little bit of an uncomfortable setting, but it's the most uncomfortable is for the people who lost the loved ones. So just show up, absolutely show up. And a text message is awesome. Every single acknowledgement is meaningful. 

[00:20:06] Angela Kennecke: I think like, I don't remember the texts.

I remember getting texts, but I can't tell you who texts me and who didn't during that time. Of course, this was a sudden death. I wasn't prepared for us. I don't know if you have a better memory than I do since you knew this was happening or if this is for like for everybody. remembering who texts me is not necessarily something.

I mean, I probably appreciated the texts at the time and I knew I was getting that support or those vibes being sent my way, but I did save the cards and I do know, I believe I remember almost everybody who showed up at the visitation and or the funeral. 

[00:20:38] Natalie Eisenberg: Exactly. You do. And you can read back on some of that, like the guest book and things like that.

[00:20:44] Angela Kennecke: Right. 

[00:20:44] Natalie Eisenberg: I don't know. It's affirming that that support was there. And I also had a. Learning around. I had a former boss of mine lost his daughter and this was before my mom's whole stuff and I remember feeling kind of tacky because I had a card and I didn't get in the mail for like a few weeks after the funeral and I thought, Oh, this is really tacky, but I'm going to send it anyway.

And for us, when we received a card three weeks after the funeral, it was like actually really, really nice because it kind of continued that support. So I said, it's never too late to reach out to someone if you. Maybe miss that original wave of experience. So the showing up is huge and you can do it in a lot of ways.

But when I asked in the survey, what was helpful to people? One thing too, was just to hear the name of their loved one. And I can absolutely resonate with that. And a lot of times it happens when we're at family gatherings and I'll hear my mom's name mentioned like across the room, like honey. And I just like, I want to be there.

insert myself and I want to hear about it. What was the memory? What was the story? It just warms my heart to hear her name spoken. And I think maybe to those who haven't experienced it personally, it might feel like, Oh, I don't want to bring it up. Or is it awkward? No, it is not awkward. There's nothing I love more than to hear my mom's name.

How about you? 

[00:22:10] Angela Kennecke: Yeah, a hundred percent. And in our family, you know, I probably told a lot more Emily's stories early on, especially with family and, or with friends. But now we all tell them like my kids are very comfortable talking, telling Emily's stories. And I noticed that has sort of evolved over the course of my children were very young in high school when she died, but as they mature and it's something that we freely talk about in our family, I think it can be a little annoying to outsiders.

If I talk about her too much, they like, Oh, you haven't let that go yet. You should let that go and move on, which is such, those are such false ideas we know. But I think it goes back to that person's uncomfortableness with death in general, or even the anticipation of their own losses. But yeah, saying their name is so important.

Of course, we named the charity after Emily, so her name gets said a lot. 

[00:23:02] Natalie Eisenberg: Yes, it does. Yes. And in great context in that way. 

[00:23:06] Angela Kennecke: Yeah. 

[00:23:06] Natalie Eisenberg: One other thing that I've learned and I tried to implement in my own life is remembering those milestone dates of people. I have a couple of coworkers who I know have lost loved ones over the past few years.

And. It was after my mom died, and it was actually probably in the process of doing this project that I realized that that really is a best practice to know, like, what are the days that they might be struggling, whether it be Mother's Day or Father's Day or a birthday or the death anniversary. I try and write those things down in my calendar as best I can for the people in my life and acknowledge them.

It's been almost a year now for me, and it's honestly like it's getting, it's getting quieter of people checking in on me. So whenever someone does, like, it really brings a lot of comfort and I appreciate it a lot. 

[00:23:52] Angela Kennecke: Right, because life marches on. We're still grieving, but life goes on and people go on with their lives and they forget.

So I think just writing that down in the calendar, I have most birthdates and death dates of people I know who've lost someone written down in my calendar, but sometimes even then I might not always remember or look at my calendar and think, Oh yeah, I need, but even I think in that case, that's when a text is appreciated because you're not hearing.

from so many people and just text is something like, Oh, thinking of you on this day. Hope you're doing okay. 

[00:24:22] Natalie Eisenberg: So good. So beautiful. So then I asked in this survey and I included on my website or some things that my group of survey respondents kind of had said, like are not so helpful as a grieving person.

So I guess a couple of highlights from that section would be some triggering comments or questions. One that was really common and that I resonated with was. Just kind of like the default. How are you? You know, as you're, as you're walking through the office or, you know, if you run into somebody in a restaurant, and honestly, I even remember it from the visitation.

People would say, how are you? How do you think I am? I'm, I'm horrible. 

[00:25:00] Angela Kennecke: Horrible things for asking. I think that's another podcast. Are terrible things for asking. Yeah. Yeah, it is. 

[00:25:07] Natalie Eisenberg: And it's a whole different thing if someone is asking, how are you Angela? Yeah. You know, and they're truly asking, How are you really?

Yeah. Right. Right. But that flippant default kind of, um, How are you? Yeah. 

[00:25:21] Angela Kennecke: Just, 

[00:25:22] Natalie Eisenberg: it's bothersome. 

[00:25:23] Angela Kennecke: Nobody really wants to know how you are when they ask that. 

[00:25:26] Natalie Eisenberg: Exactly. So that was one of them. And then, you know, God needed them more than we did kind of stuff. Or, 

[00:25:33] Angela Kennecke: Oh, they're with Jesus now. So, you know, you should be happy.

Yeah. Yeah. Right. Don't. 

[00:25:38] Natalie Eisenberg: Yeah, you can have your faith, but those are not helpful at that time. 

[00:25:42] Angela Kennecke: And also like everything happens for a reason. I hate that. Yes, that's bad. There's a lot of chaos in the world. I don't think everything happens for a reason and we, people create a lot of these situations, right?

Not all of them, but a lot of them. So no, there's no like greater reason. 

[00:25:58] Natalie Eisenberg: Not helpful. 

[00:25:59] Angela Kennecke: Right. Not helpful. How do we get people to stop saying these things? 

[00:26:05] Natalie Eisenberg: Oh, I just think people like you and me are going to have to keep educating and sharing what we've learned and just like any other topic, spreading the word on, on what's appropriate and inappropriate and helpful and not helpful.

[00:26:19] Angela Kennecke: Right. Talking about it. And then the other thing that you talk about is in the workplace, because I think a lot In the workplace, things are kind of compartmentalized. You're not really supposed to be a full human being, right? You're supposed to just be a worker, right? So I know you're a leader of an organization.

So how has this experience changed you and maybe what even you do in your workplace? 

[00:26:43] Natalie Eisenberg: Well, we all come to work and bring our problems with us, you know, in reality, and they're in there somewhere, even though if they're not on the surface. So when somebody is experiencing grief in the workplace, I just think it's so important that we acknowledge that and acknowledge them and we don't make them rush through it.

And I talk a little bit about creating a safe space. I mean, like, check in on them a little bit more than you normally would, and You know, let them know that like, if you ever want to just walk around the block or if you ever want to talk while we're at work, just send me a message and we'll make it work, you know, just letting them know that you are a safe haven that they can turn to during the workday.

[00:27:23] Angela Kennecke: And I really think that the only people that really do that, at least in my previous workplace, were the people that had been through loss. Right. Because I made it a point to do that after I lost Emily, and then other people had losses of children, parents, those kinds of things that I would always go check in on that person.

You know, how's it going today? You know, I'm here. Here are some resources for, or just anything I could think of, but I think I might've been the only one. I think other people are a little afraid to approach the grieving person at work. 

[00:27:50] Natalie Eisenberg: Right. I think you're right. It's kind of like I don't want to bring it up.

I don't want to bring up a sore subject and I, you know, I don't want to make him cry or whatever it is, but we know his griever's that. It's already in there. You know, they're not bringing it up. It's always on our hearts and minds anyway, so if they notice us kind of unable to perform or spaced off in a meeting, like those are some cues that maybe we should check in on them a little more closely.

And what I really appreciated when I came back to work was that coworkers just kind of like picked up pieces of my job and proactively said like, I'll do this for a while. I'll just do this for a while. Let me know when you're ready to. Take it back. I'll take care of this. I'll cancel whatever meetings as we're going all through things, you know, not everybody is going to be the leader in their office and maybe have more people around them to support on those types of things.

But even with a peer, you know, the types of work that they do and say, like, I can do that for a little while. Just take a little extra 

[00:28:54] Angela Kennecke: off of your plate. Right. Because the grieving may not feel comfortable asking for help. We all feel like we have to handle everything ourselves. I think that's just the American way.

[00:29:03] Natalie Eisenberg: Right? Yeah, especially the South Dakota way. We're hard workers and we want to get things done and I didn't want to ask for help. I'm not good at asking for help in general, but I didn't want to ask for help. And also my mind was just really foggy for a while. 

[00:29:20] Angela Kennecke: Grief, especially sudden loss, has been compared to a traumatic brain injury.

So I felt like I had a brain injury. I felt like I was not myself. I wasn't thinking as quickly. I couldn't remember things. It felt that way to me. 

[00:29:33] Natalie Eisenberg: Absolutely. And it makes sense because it is such a holistic impact. So, Anybody can give some grace to somebody going through grief at work. Give some grace and know that, you know, they're probably not going to perform like they did a few weeks prior to the loss.

And that's important. And then also I recognized that I needed a lot more encouragement because my confidence was not as, as high, you know, in the midst of the mind fog and the trauma and all of the other life responsibility things that we have to take care of when we lose someone close to us. That's a big load.

And so I did feel a lack of confidence in doing my job as well as I had in the past. Maybe a sense of overwhelm? Certainly. Overwhelmed. I tend to feel pretty capable of carrying whatever load is thrown my way. And this was, this was overwhelming. And As I got back into the swing of things at work, it meant even more to me to have somebody tell me good job on that, you know, that was really spot on, or like, that was really cool what you did.

Whatever the encouragement is, like, it meant more to me then than it ever had before. 

[00:30:46] Angela Kennecke: And then another subject to address on your website is bereavement leave. And this is something in this country, you know, we give people three days if they lost a child or a parent. I just think that's insane that anybody is going to be ready to jump back into work and do a great job after three days.

Did you have a bereavement policy at your company? Did you change it? Tell me about that. 

[00:31:10] Natalie Eisenberg: Actually, yes, we've always offered three days paid bereavement standard. Yeah, so we went with a standard and through this, you know, doing research and talking to lots of people and exploring the topic, we did increase it to five days paid and then, of course, we offer extended leaves if needed that are just unpaid.

So, we're doing better. It's not perfect, but, you know, certainly recognizing that three days is not enough and giving people the space to take the time that they need without worrying about their job. 

[00:31:41] Angela Kennecke: Why is it so hard, do you think, for companies to give people more time? 

[00:31:45] Natalie Eisenberg: Well, I think, you know, especially in a smaller business, um, like yours or, you know, mine's maybe a little more medium sized at 65 people.

The absence of a person is really felt drastically, you know, and in a lot of our companies today we're pretty generous with PTO offerings and other offerings. You know, in our business, we do a birthday holiday and we do where everybody gets one day off just for themselves on their birthday. Some things like that.

So we're pretty generous with time off anyway. And so then if you're adding to the absence, but you know, I guess what I've seen and learned now is bringing people back too soon as is, you know, they're kind of still absent anyway. So we need to really give people the time that they need to heal. 

[00:32:26] Angela Kennecke: I do know of three other mothers who lost their children that had to get back to work, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so they went back too soon and then they, all three of them ended up getting fired because they weren't performing on their job the way they were previously, which I just thought was just like another loss upon, then you lose your job, you lose your child, you lose your job. But I think it just goes to show for the lack of tolerance that American business has for grieving and bereavement and all of that.

Yeah. 

[00:32:53] Natalie Eisenberg: Yeah. Can do better. So it's a topic that is really important to me, to you, and the more awareness and education that we can do on it, the better. 

[00:33:02] Angela Kennecke: Right. I ended up taking short term disability because I was so riddled with anxiety and panic attacks after I lost my daughter. It just took a while.

Thank goodness I had purchased that policy because if I hadn't, I had a performance job at the time, you know, it was going on television every day. And I, I don't know how I would have done that. Of course, every case is different, every person is different, but I think we should try to, in this country, expand bereavement leave from three days.

And I'm glad that you have. That's wonderful that you 

[00:33:36] Natalie Eisenberg: have. I think we can keep working on that. Yeah. Absolutely. 

[00:33:40] Angela Kennecke: I know you spoke at this conference and then you put out the website. What's next? What are you doing with grief and this subject next? 

[00:33:48] Natalie Eisenberg: Well I'm still talking about it. I'm still going to be promoting it.

I'm not exactly sure where else it will go, but I'll keep building out some content around it as I learn more and read more and experience my own experience more. We have, you know, ways to go. And like I said, I never pictured myself here. I didn't really plan for it, but. Of all of the professional projects and accomplishments that I have done over the years, this has certainly been the most meaningful and I've gotten the most response to, like I said, at the conference, you know, people kept coming up to me.

I've gotten personal notes over the last nine months of just people who've seen the content here and there and said it's been super helpful to them. I guess that's what I'm doing is trying to make a positive difference. Thanks. 

[00:34:37] Angela Kennecke: Well, that's wonderful. And that's plenty. That's certainly enough. And as you are approaching the year anniversary of your mother's death, do you have a plan of how you're going, you know, to recognize it?

Do you know what you'll do? 

[00:34:51] Natalie Eisenberg: We haven't really made a plan as a family specifically, but I know we will, and you know, this whole year has really been a lot more close knit time together, quality time together as a family, which has been amazing, so I expect that we'll do something like that. We still have some tribute projects that we want to complete for her.

Like a bench somewhere and some things like that. And so maybe that would align. It also happens to be my 20 year wedding anniversary right at about the same time. So my husband and I are taking a trip and I'm really looking forward to that. And so I know that's what she would want is for us to continue celebrating life.

And I know she'd be pleased with, with what we're doing with her legacy as well. 

[00:35:35] Angela Kennecke: Yeah, I'm sure she would be. I wish I could have known her. She sounds. Like an amazing woman, but I really appreciate you delving into this topic of grief and sharing what you've learned with others. I think the more we can talk about it, the better.

[00:35:49] Natalie Eisenberg: I agree. Thank you so much. 

[00:35:51] Angela Kennecke: Thank you. Thank you for coming on the podcast.

And thank you for listening to this episode of Grieving Out Loud. We've covered the topic of grief in several other episodes. You can find links to them in the show notes. Thanks again for spending your time with us. Until next week, wishing you faith, hope, and courage.

This podcast is produced by Casey Wunderberg King and Anna Fye.