[00:00:00] Chris Raeford: At the bus stop one morning, a friend of mine said, Hey, you want to hit this? It looked like a cigarette. Lo and behold, it was a joint.

[00:00:14] Angela Kennecke: With a record number of Americans using marijuana, cannabis use disorder is also on the rise. In fact, recent research published in the Journal of the American Medical Association finds that more than one fifth of people who use cannabis struggle with dependency or problematic use. 

[00:00:33] Chris Raeford: After high school, so about like 18, 19, you know, I got real lazy and got real depressed.

All I wanted to do was smoke, lay in the bed, barely could keep a job. 

[00:00:45] Angela Kennecke: In this episode of Grieving Out Loud, Chris Rayford courageously opens up about his journey, dealing with grief, turning to marijuana for comfort, and then confronting his addiction. It's not just about personal struggles, though. His story is truly inspiring.

We hope it leaves you motivated to face your own challenges. and extend a helping hand to others going through difficult situations. 

[00:01:08] Chris Raeford: How I kind of tackle every day is the opportunity that I get to wake up every day is an opportunity that I get to be better and do better and stay in recovery.

[00:01:28] Angela Kennecke: Well, Chris, welcome to Grieving Out Loud. I am so happy to connect with you this way. Thank 

[00:01:33] Chris Raeford: you. Thank you. It's a pleasure. 

[00:01:35] Angela Kennecke: And were you in Washington, D. C. as well? Yeah, ma'am. Yep. Yeah, on International Overdose Awareness Day. And we didn't get to meet each other. Like, we only got to meet the people at our table, right?

I was a 

[00:01:44] Chris Raeford: little surprised when I got your email, your initial email. Yep. Wish we could've. 

[00:01:49] Angela Kennecke: Yeah, I'm glad we're meeting and talking now. I'd like to talk to you a little bit about your own personal journey, because you have a personal story about your own mental health and the use of substances to kind of self-medicate is what I think happened to you, but I wanna hear more from you about how that all started.

Yep. 

[00:02:08] Chris Raeford: So life. Life was, well up until I was about 12 years old. That's when I lost my mom. to heart failure actually. And so I was living here in Baltimore with my dad and she was in California where I was born and raised. So it kind of all caught us off guard, would you say? At that point, as young as 12, 13, I can remember when I picked up marijuana and used that to kind of deal with what I was going through.

and just to kind of like fit in and mask the pain that I was in.

[00:02:44] Angela Kennecke: In fact, Chris very vividly remembers how he felt the first day he tried marijuana.

[00:02:53] Chris Raeford: When I came back from burying my mother, we buried her in Puerto Rico. And so when I came back, I was in a real vulnerable state. At the bus stop one morning, a friend of mine said, Hey, you want to hit this? It looked like a cigarette. Lo and behold, it was a joint and that's kind of where it started. And it wasn't until about 14 that I was diagnosed with severe depression, which kind of led me to continuously use, should I say, cause I was just, I was young.

My father wasn't the greatest emotional support system. Should I say that I. didn't know I needed at that age, which caused me to, again, hang out with the wrong people, which led me to my use of marijuana and so on and so forth. 

[00:03:37] Angela Kennecke: You know, I heard a couple of things in what you said. First of all, early childhood trauma oftentimes leads to substance use, right?

And the more trauma you have, the more likely you are to find yourself suffering from mental health issues and substance use disorder. And losing a parent is one of the worst things that can happen to a kid. 

[00:03:55] Chris Raeford: Yes, ma'am. Yeah, and it was surprising, um, nonetheless. You know, my mother was 34 when she passed away, I believe.

Kind of rolled with the punches, for lack of better words, and, you know, figured it out. I did a lot of self sabotaging. You know, caused myself to kind of go into a spiral of situations that I didn't necessarily have to go 

through. 

[00:04:16] Angela Kennecke: The other thing I heard you say is that starting marijuana at age 12 or 13, and I'm sure now you know that when you start smoking marijuana or drinking alcohol or using any kind of mind altering substance, even, you know, nicotine can set the undeveloped brain up, of course, for addiction.

But you weren't thinking of things like that, I'm sure, when you're 12 or 13, but obviously it was easily accessible to a 12 year old. 

[00:04:39] Chris Raeford: Unfortunately, as crazy as it sounds,

[00:04:46] Angela Kennecke: I spoke with a highly respected psychiatrist specializing in addiction care. During a previous episode of Grieving Out Loud, Dr. Hannah Stott's de Vries says marijuana is definitely not meant for the developing brain. 

[00:05:00] Dr. Hannah Statz DeVries: I won't get started with the legalization also of marijuana, but I have my concerns.

And your concerns about marijuana. So the debate is out there, is marijuana addictive? Ah, well we have a cannabis use disorder, you know, that we have well documented, so, you know, and there's also intoxication and withdrawal syndrome, so. My answer's yeah. You know when People don't like to hear that. Yeah.

No one likes to hear it because it's a, it's a fantasy. It's a cure all for everything. Yeah. That's what you hear. You know? I always 

[00:05:24] Angela Kennecke: say it's not for the developing brain. I try to stay out of it. I use it for adults, but I mean, it just worries me that kids are going to have more access to it now that it's becoming legal in so many places.

[00:05:33] Dr. Hannah Statz DeVries: Legalization to commercialization to advertising to marketing. Not to say that it may be helpful for certain people in certain instances with the evidence base for it. You know what? If you give me the evidence, I'll say, absolutely. Let me help you. 

[00:05:50] Angela Kennecke: Unfortunately, for too many people, including Chris, that recreational marijuana use.

Leads to substance use disorder.

Did your use increase then? 

[00:06:03] Chris Raeford: So it was real lackluster early on. Like it was only whenever I was around. Right. And my dad kept me pretty tight knit for the most part. But I'd say maybe like early high school freshman, sophomore years when it kind of picked up a little bit more. And then, yeah, it was a thing to do.

[00:06:23] Angela Kennecke: You know, we now know that certainly cannabis use disorder is a real thing and, and it can be really addictive. Think that there's been so much debate out there about marijuana because so many people want to use it, want it to be legal, right? And it's legal in a lot of places now. And the debate about, is it a gateway drug?

Is it addictive? All of those things. And, and I've had doctors tell me, Oh, it's certainly addictive and you could attest to 

[00:06:50] Chris Raeford: I can agree with the addiction part, especially, I mean, you can get addicted to anything that you use enough, whether good or bad, but the gateway situation, I don't necessarily agree with, per se, just in my case, because it's never made me want to go pick up anything else, you know, and I think I was real adamant about it.

Even as I got older, you know, around 14, 15, realizing what those substances were doing to people and me just not wanting to play that game. So I thank myself for just having the stability and the mentality to not want to try anything else. 

[00:07:26] Angela Kennecke: Yeah, that's really interesting to me because almost every person I know who suffered from opioid use disorder usually started with marijuana, right?

So for many people, it does lead to that, but for others like you, it doesn't. So maybe the debate is still out there. When did you realize that it was an issue or a problem in your life for you? 

[00:07:47] Chris Raeford: Age wise, I was probably 18, 19. Life wise, just, well, I couldn't sustain a job, right? My depression really crept back on me after high school, so about like 18, 19, you know, I got real lazy, got real depressed.

All I wanted to do was smoke, lay in the bed, barely could keep a job. It was at that point that I knew that like I had a problem that I really needed to address.

[00:08:20] Angela Kennecke: But like most people suffering from substance use disorder, Chris at first had a difficult time finding recovery.

[00:08:31] Chris Raeford: All up until I was about 24, I was using on and off. It never really got to a point where it was like an everyday type of thing, but I was using more than I should have been. And I can just remember the day that kind of like woke me up. And after that I started my peer recovery journey. I started my abstinence from marijuana and it's been, you know, a great journey.

So 

[00:08:57] Angela Kennecke: what was the day that woke you up? What happened? 

[00:09:00] Chris Raeford: So I was working odd jobs all up until that point. More specifically, a puffle of Wild Wings cooking food. It was like two weeks before my birthday. I got into it with somebody that worked there. They wanted stuff from us that we couldn't really provide, and they were, you know, real disrespectful, and so I just, I've always been the one to stand my ground, and you know, not letting anybody really play with me, per se.

So I ended up quitting that job.

[00:09:29] Angela Kennecke: With no job, and a realization that he needed help with substance abuse, Chris sought help from a family friend, Tiffany Scott, who was running a peer support organization.

[00:09:44] Chris Raeford: At that time she was family, she was married to my aunt, but I didn't have much of a relationship with Tiffany if I'm going to be completely honest at that point, but I knew that she can help me. How I knew that I don't know because I didn't even know that she was running a peer support organization herself at that time.

So she was just more so of an unbiased person to call and just kind of get some advice from. And lo and behold, she's been with me or I've been with her and she's been helping me a great deal along the way. She was who I was with when I came to the White House. 

[00:10:16] Angela Kennecke: Sure. And so you turned to her and she's running a peer support recovery program.

Yep. And what tools or what did you get there that you hadn't gotten anywhere else in your life? 

[00:10:28] Chris Raeford: Authenticity. Transparency, accountability, to be honest, like she told me, you know, you're about to be 25 years old. What are you doing with your life? Right? And it was that question kind of like sparked it like, I'm only getting older, can't keep chasing, you know, that same high that I got as a kid, I can't figure this out on my own.

I need some extra support. And she told me, she said, you know, if you follow Mali, I'll get you to where you want to go. And it's been very well since then.

[00:11:02] Angela Kennecke: In fact, Chris has not only found recovery, he's also taken it a step further by helping others. He even recently became certified as a Peer Support Specialist. 

[00:11:14] Chris Raeford: Even before I was certified, I was out doing outreach, saving lives using Narcan. I've saved about three different lives using Narcan. In my style of a peer support specialist is I carry things just like Tiffany carried them with me.

I like to be transparent. I like to be real. And that holds some weight with the people that I've dealt with, right? Because I feel like in active addiction, you can tell when somebody is being genuine with you and when they just want to help you for the money that they get for the job, right? But with me, I, I meet them where they're at.

I let them know that I'm an example of what you can reach if you really want to, right? And I'll do everything I can to help you do that. 

[00:11:58] Angela Kennecke: So you go out in the streets, you've saved people with Narcan, but you've also lost people close to you. Can you tell me? What's happened in your own family? 

[00:12:07] Chris Raeford: Yep. So my older cousin, Tiara, which is Tiffany's daughter, she passed away to a pharmaceutical overdose.

She was diagnosed with sickle cell and throughout that battle, you know, I believe to my understanding, she was prescribed more than what she should have been prescribed. And that's kind of what led to that. And then here recently in February, I lost my little cousin. to an overdose, uh, from the street. 

[00:12:33] Angela Kennecke: Was it fentanyl?

[00:12:34] Chris Raeford: So we don't know for sure what the result was, but we know that she took a couple different substances and one may have just overpowered the other. 

[00:12:41] Angela Kennecke: Does your family, how has your family coped with the loss of two of its members? 

[00:12:47] Chris Raeford: Man, I think to be completely honest, we weren't necessarily okay with losing Tierra, which is my older cousin that we lost first, before we got, you know, blindsided by losing my younger cousin Micah.

And so, being as though they were two lights at a party, you know, everybody loved them, they would give you the shirt off their back, just genuine, great people, it's hard, right? And I think a lot of times, or at least for me, we decompartmentalize things. I try not to think about it. as much only because I know how close me and my cousin Micah were.

We raised together. She's only a few months younger than me. And so just losing her really did a lot to me. And so, um, You know, I just take it day by day. 

[00:13:42] Angela Kennecke: Have you lost a loved one to overdose or fentanyl poisoning? I'd like to invite you to share their story on our new Emily's Hope memorial website called More Than Just a Number.

They were our children, siblings, cousins, husbands, wives, aunts, uncles. And friends, so much more than just a number. You can submit a memorial today on more than just a number.org

each day. Chris also witnesses the destructive impact of illicit drugs on people's lives, our cities and our nation in Baltimore. How bad is this problem out there? What are you seeing? 

[00:14:24] Chris Raeford: The fentanyl and now there's Xylazine issue that we're dealing with. has been, for lack of better words, overwhelming, to say the least.

Currently, I work for the Baltimore City Health Department, so I'm actively seeing people in active addiction. And just to see what he's doing to them at face value, as far as like their physical appearance, the wounds that's being caused by Lizalizine, it's really bad. 

[00:14:49] Angela Kennecke: Yeah, we've seen those photos like on the news in different places of people's arms, you know, all Rotted away for a lack of a better word.

Have you seen those kinds of things yourself? Yes, 

[00:14:59] Chris Raeford: ma'am. Yes, ma'am. 

[00:15:01] Angela Kennecke: You have 

[00:15:03] Chris Raeford: It's been mentally like draining if I'm being completely honest just to see that on an everyday basis Knowing why I'm doing this work because it's just I do this work to help other people, but because of the losses that I've taken, it's really hard to see people struggling, right?

And wanting help, but not knowing how to get it. You know, it's, it's definitely a battle. 

[00:15:26] Angela Kennecke: Do you think people are seeking out xylosine? Because what I've always heard is it's laced and people don't know they're getting 

[00:15:32] Chris Raeford: it. Yeah. So I don't know if it's xylosine more so than it is fentanyl, because I've heard people straight up and tell me, no, I want fentanyl.

But like, I don't. 

[00:15:40] Angela Kennecke: I 

[00:15:42] Chris Raeford: don't know, you know, what level they're seeking, to be honest, what the difference is, but we test a lot of the syringes that we get in because I work for the needle exchange program more specifically, which helps with harm reduction and, you know, saving lives that way. And so we, we test a lot of the syringes and none of them, a lot of them, should I say, come back with either caffeine, fentanyl, or, you know, something else was just laced.

So. Unfortunately, people aren't really getting what they think they're 

getting. 

[00:16:12] Angela Kennecke: Never usually, yeah. And the needle exchange program, tell me about that because there's a lot of controversy over needle exchange programs throughout the nation, right? I mean, are you encouraging drug use? Is this something that, you know, some people are really against it.

So what do you have to say about that? 

[00:16:29] Chris Raeford: Uh, well, our program at the city has been running for the last 24 years. I've been there for the last year, some change. And the idea of harm reduction, meeting people where they are and, you know, trying to refer them to treatment. If it works, it works great. But I don't know if that's the ultimate solution, should I say.

Seeing what it does to people, I don't know how personally, like, it's hard to explain personally what it does to me. Knowing that I'm helping somebody continue on with their addiction, but again, allowing them or helping them use it safely, you know, it's kind of like a happy medium, if you will. 

[00:17:12] Angela Kennecke: It's good and it's bad at the same time, right?

So it's just like, I can see what you're saying. Like, you feel like you're helping someone use these horrible substances, right? That we don't want them to use, but at the same time, we don't want people to die. So it seems like there's not a very good solution right now. 

[00:17:26] Chris Raeford: No, not at all. What it's going to take to really get there, to be honest.

[00:17:31] Angela Kennecke: Yeah. That's, that was kind of going to be my next question for you, because we did meet at International Overdose Awareness Day at the White House, and we're there as advocates. We're there as advocates. People out there trying to end this horrible epidemic that we're seeing. Did you feel like you got any answers or any sort of resolution that day or do you think we're headed in the right direction?

[00:17:53] Chris Raeford: I mean, like I said, the idea of helping people use safely, I'm all for because, of course, I don't want you to overdose. But I would feel a lot better if I was seeing a lot more people going to treatment, should I say that. I don't know if treatment is being pushed enough. More so than just allowing them to continue to get high, if that makes sense.

[00:18:15] Angela Kennecke: I don't think there's enough treatment out there, enough availability of affordable treatment, right? Or free treatment or whatever it needs to be. 

[00:18:21] Chris Raeford: Absolutely. If that was to change, I think the whole dynamic around it would change. 

[00:18:28] Angela Kennecke: Right. And we heard about a lot of money going, I think it was three quarters of a billion dollars total.

They talked about that day we were there in D. C. Going toward this problem. I think it was mostly to county and local governments, state, county and local governments. I mean, it's a lot of money. You know, it seems like we could come up with some better solutions. 

[00:18:50] Chris Raeford: You would think it's incredible that they have all the money to do things with, but I'm really itching to see, you know, the outcomes of what that money really does because people need it.

And I mean, not only in Baltimore, I can only imagine in areas I know. Pennsylvania is out of control with this, you know, situation. So we all need help, not just here in Baltimore. 

[00:19:15] Angela Kennecke: Right. I think we see the worst of it in the major cities, major cosmopolitan areas on the coast, right? But it makes its way into the center of the country from both coasts, right?

And definitely the problem is everywhere. It just may be a little more extreme in some areas. 

[00:19:32] Chris Raeford: So I'm willing to fight, you know, through it all and help in every way I can.

[00:19:40] Angela Kennecke: Meanwhile, Chris also fights to stay in recovery. His anchor comes from the unwavering support of his family, friends, and those he's guiding on their own path to sobriety.

[00:19:56] Chris Raeford: Ethically, I'd be doing myself a disservice by telling people, you know, don't get high, and I'm still using myself. And two, just from seeing what it does to people from the losses and deep down, you know, I know that that's not what my mother would want, right? 

[00:20:12] Angela Kennecke: That's right. 

[00:20:13] Chris Raeford: She passed away in her sleep, though, how I kind of tackle every day is the opportunity that I get to wake up every day is an opportunity that I get to be better and do better in recovery.

So yeah, those are, those are my whys, you know, to help people not do it all for nothing, right? I take pride in the work that I do and the people that I serve, and so I would hate for it to go to waste by just a thought. 

[00:20:38] Angela Kennecke: Right. It is just an impulse, right? Just a thought, an impulse that leads to an action.

Correct.

That impulse has tragically led to countless deaths in recent years. On grieving out Loud, we've heard heartbreaking stories from dozens of parents who've lost children to illicit drugs. Among them is Chris Didier, who shared the devastating loss. of his 17 year old son, Zach. Zach bought what he thought was a Percocet through Snapchat, only to discover it was a deadly dose of fentanyl.

[00:21:16] Chris Didier: And I opened Zach's door and found him appearing to be asleep at his computer desk. He had his head resting peacefully on his left arm and his right hand was near his mouse and his computer was still on. And at first I thought, Oh my gosh, kid, he's wearing his pajamas. He fell asleep at his computer desk playing Minecraft or something like that.

But when I got within a few feet to check on him, I sensed a void that still haunts me every day. 

[00:21:54] Angela Kennecke: Trauma and grief. That unfortunately, Chris Rayford has also experienced. I think so many families have been affected by one death, or more than one death, as in the case of your family, and I think how prevalent that is today across the country.

[00:22:12] Chris Raeford: I think you're getting the nail on the nose right there. This epidemic that we're in, it's, it's taken cousins, uncles, brothers, nieces, mums, dads, eight people, right? And, you know, when I was in active addiction, even though I didn't care to want to use anything else, I was afraid that, you know, one day I might use something or something might happen where I might be in that situation, right?

It's just, it's sad that families have to, have to really deal with this. Like, we deal with enough as individuals, as people, right? To have to lose loved ones to, to substances. I just wish it was more that we can do. before I got to that point, you know. 

[00:22:55] Angela Kennecke: Right. And have you found other ways to cope with your depression or to alleviate it?

Yes, ma'am. 

[00:23:01] Chris Raeford: So I'm real big on music. I think music is therapeutic. There's a song for almost every emotion that you're feeling. That's kind of how I decompress. I work 14 hours a day, five days a week. And so when I come home from work, I'm like, I sit in my car for a little bit. I turn some music on and I just woosah.

And that really helps me. That really helps 

me. 

[00:23:24] Angela Kennecke: Yeah. A healthy way. A healthy way. Right? Well, thank you so much for sharing your story with us. And thank you for all the work you're doing too. And I really think it will make a difference. 

[00:23:37] Chris Raeford: Thank you so much for having me. Appreciate you.

[00:23:44] Angela Kennecke: We appreciate you spending your valuable time with us. Join us again next week for an eye opening conversation. with a paramedic who has seen firsthand the devastating effects of our nation's drug crisis. 

[00:23:58] Shani Reisnour: We used to keep the Narcan in our, in our drug bags and it had gotten to the point that we were keeping it on the counter of the ambulance because It was being used so frequently.

I just, I never thought it would happen to my daughter. I never thought that because she had seen me come home crying, having to put children in body bags. 

[00:24:26] Angela Kennecke: Unfortunately, the fentanyl epidemic knows no boundaries. Here's Shannie Reisenauer's heart wrenching story, the lessons she's learned, and what she wants every parent to know.

That's next week on Grieving Out Loud. Thanks again for listening. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Wannenberg King and Ana Fy.