[00:00:00] Song For Charlie: The song's called Song for Charlie, here 

[00:00:12] Ed Ternan: it is...

[00:00:31] Angela Kennecke: (Song for Charlie plays for :42) 

having a professional artist pen a song about your life would be a real honor. While for Ed and Mary Ternan, who treasure this song as a tribute to their son, Charlie, it's bittersweet.

[00:00:49] Ed Ternan: We know that Charlie takes the occasional Xanax. I mean, we don't condone it, but we kind of know that that's on the menu for kids his age to relax and watch Netflix and maybe take a Xanax the way people might, you know, smoke a joint back in the day. that we were scratch our heads with like, how much Xanax would Charlie have to take to kill him? He's 6 2, 2 35​

[00:01:14] Angela Kennecke: tragically, Charlie became one of the growing number of Americans who've lost their lives due to counterfeit prescription pills laced with fentanyl. Even though the CDC has sent out an alert about the doubling of drug overdose deaths linked to fake pills, many teens and young adults still aren't getting the message.

That's why Charlie's parents have formed a nonprofit aimed at raising awareness and are using their platform to work with social media companies and speak publicly about their loss, including on national TV, like the Today Show.

 (nats from Today Show) 

 We first told the Ternan's story here on Today in February.

They say they want to work with Snapchat. After that aired, Snapchat reached out. And now, they're working with the Ternan Family's foundation, Song for Charlie, 

[00:02:05] Angela Kennecke: On this episode of Grieving Out Loud, we'll hear Ed Ternan's urgent message to all Americans that one pill can kill. I'm Angela Kennecke. Join us as we delve into this important conversation.

 (MUSIC TRANSITION) 

[00:02:22] Angela Kennecke: Well Ed, welcome to Grieving Out Loud, and I am so very sorry that I guess fate, the loss of our two children, your son 22. My daughter 21 has brought us together for this conversation, but I am so grateful to meet you.

[00:02:38] Ed Ternan: And I'm, I'm grateful to meet you as well. Thanks for all the good work you're doing.

[00:02:42] Angela Kennecke: Well, likewise, likewise. I wanna talk a little bit about Song for Charlie. I love it that you called it Song for Charlie, your nonprofit, because all the work I do at Emily's Hope, I always say it's a love song to my daughter. I don't know if that's why, I wanna know why you call it Song for Charlie, but I wanna know about Charlie too, so we can just start off by talking about our kids.

[00:03:05] Ed Ternan: No, that's great. Yeah, I'd love to talk to you about, Charlie and there is a story behind the name for our, nonprofit. 

We lost Charlie when he was 22. I. In May of 2020. So it's been a little over three years for us now. And as you well know, you're a little further along in your journey, but it really doesn't get easier. It gets different, but it doesn't get easier. That's my experience. I. 

And Charlie was our youngest of three. he has two older siblings now, almost both of 'em in their thirties. And so Charlie died when he was a, college senior. So my wife Mary and I, you know, this was Charlie's death was a, a real grenade that went off.

If you can imagine, as a parent, we were three weeks away from having Our youngest child graduate college, and we were ready for the big high five. We did it, we launched all three kids. And

three weeks before he was due to graduate, died from a fake pill. Now Charlie himself, he was a, great guy.

We all say that about our kids. As the third child one of those who kind of lurked in the shadows. He wasn't necessarily always right out front. But when he did speak up, he was very witty and clever and had a great dry sense of humor. 

Um, 

He was a real connector, very empathetic kid. You know, the, term gentle giant is, is overused.

Charlie was like six two or so.

But really just a gentle, nice kind of no drama kind of guy. was like hassle free. He just was not into the drama. When he sensed it coming on, he would be the one that was like, all right, come on, everybody just chill out. Right? just a real loving guy. Tons of friends. Easy to be around. That was Charlie.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:04:43] Angela Kennecke: But in the spring of 2020, the COVID pandemic was just beginning to unfold. 22 year old Charlie initially spent some time with his parents at home, but he made the decision to return to his college campus for a few weeks, driven by the anticipation of embracing a new chapter in his life, one that involved college graduation and promising job prospects.

 (MUSIC UP) 

[00:05:11] Ed Ternan: And so Charlie went back up to campus, which is about five hours away from where we live in Southern California up in the Bay area, to spend the last month of his, you know, college career with his friends his girlfriend, fraternity brothers and so forth. early Covid, so the campus was shut down and when he got back up there he was interviewing for jobs and, getting ready to graduate and all that kind of stuff. And he had to sit around the house and wait for a, telephone job interview one one weekday. And so there weren't many of his fraternity brothers around. And 

The regular people weren't around campus where he might have said, gotten a Xanax or something. His idea was, I'm gonna chill out. Play some video games. Wait for this phone call, I gotta make, 

his friend said, well, nobody's around, but I've connected with this plug on Snapchat. So they went to this guy that, Charlie didn't know, never even met, I mean, he never met the guy who sold him the deadly Somebody else made the exchange. But connect with him and Charlie says, well, if he's got perks, I'll take one of those 'cause my back is hurting. 

So Charlie had had back surgery couple years earlier, so he knew what Percocet was. And then. The last time anybody talked to Charlie that afternoon was around three o'clock. And remember he was supposed to make a phone call at five o'clock to have a job interview and he didn't make that phone call. And his friends went back to check on around 7 30, 8 at night they had walked by his room a couple times and seen him laying on his bed kind of chin on his chest. They thought he was napping with the game control in his hand, doing exactly what he said he was gonna do. I'm gonna kill some play some video games and wait for this phone call. 

They did not know that he had died somewhere between three and five o'clock. So by eight o'clock they go and rouse him and say, come on Charlie, we're having dinner now. Get up. And he was gone. 

So that's how we lost Charlie.

And you know, , we weren't there. Right. So we got the phone call, we got a knock on the door by some neighbors, and then phone call from the sheriffs and hysterical kids on a college campus that Charlie's dead and we don't know why. Right. It was, it was traumatic.

[00:07:09] Angela Kennecke: That must have been so traumatizing to those young people.

[00:07:11] Ed Ternan: Oh. 

[00:07:12] Angela Kennecke: do you keep in touch with them? I mean, have you talked to them about how all this has affected them? 

[00:07:17] Ed Ternan: We, you know, we do. As a matter of fact, Mary and I were lucky enough to have dinner recently with four of Charlie's friends. and I know this, this podcast is about grief. So my experience with that was here are four young men who are 25 going on 26 now, and you know what? They're out of their knucklehead college, frat boy phase.

And they're on to maybe their second girlfriend, maybe their second job. They're exercising, taking care of themselves, moving on with their lives, and Charlie will never do any of those things. He didn't get out of that. You know, he made a dumb decision as a college senior during Covid going, eh, I'm bored. You know, I'm gonna do something dumb. And it killed him. would've gotten out of that knucklehead stage and become, you know, just a fine young person. I'm convinced of that, but we'll never know because of the one pill problem.

[00:08:08] Angela Kennecke: Right. I know exactly how you feel because I keep in touch with some of Emily's friends since seventh grade, and I was recently at lunch with one of them, and she's grown up and a mother now, Emily would've been 26, and yeah. it just hits you like, what would my daughter have been like? What would your son have been like?

And we will never know. we do not have that chance. To ever see them grow into their adulthood, to have families of their own. And I think it's that loss of what could have been that is sometimes the most difficult to take.

[00:08:42] Ed Ternan: it, so there's so much bittersweetness in our lives now, right? Where being with these young men who I've known a couple of them since kindergarten, and just so impressed with the young men they become, and yet I won't enjoy that. Same thing with son and, know, we have a wedding coming up, Charlie's sister's getting married, and that's very emotional, right? it is a joyful occasion for our family, but there's a big hole that we just, there's no way to fill it. these conflicting emotions, that's one of the things our grief therapist has said to us, that you have to start to learn how to walk through life with these conflicting emotions in your head. At the same time, it's, it's difficult.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:09:18] Angela Kennecke: Last week on Grieving Out Loud, we heard from a very inspirational 102 year old doctor who talked about grief and battling those conflicting emotions. 

Dr. Gladys McGarry is internationally recognized as the Well Lived Life, a 102 year old doctor's six secrets to health and happiness at every age. While Gladys says she's grateful for an amazing life, she's definitely had her fair share of hardships, including losing her daughter to cancer.

[00:09:59] Dr. Gladys McGarey: Her life was so important to me. She was such a, a dynamic person she still is call it going down memory lane, you know, because her presence. activates me to this day. , I know that Annie is still somewhere. She used to live in Glen Ellen. I could call her and talk to her.

Now. I can have dreams. I can, actually conjure up and work towards Who and what she was and realize that that is alive. No one can take that dream from me. I can see her in my, what I call my memory lane. As a three year old trying to tie her shoelaces. And I went to try to help her and she wags her little ponytail and stomps her foot.

And she says, I'd rather do it my known self. And I said, oh, okay. And I back off and after a while when she couldn't quite get it, she puts her head back and wags her ponytail again. And she says, If you ever help me, help me now, now, you know, those are real memories that I, I can laugh and enjoy what I had with her.

I can spend my time grieving for what I didn't get. As she grew into her seventies and so on. and that's very painful. I don't wanna spend a lot of time doing that. I would much rather spend my time enjoying her energy and who and what she is to this day. In my.

Mind, she's still alive. She passed through the, the doorway that we call death into another dimension, but she doesn't stop existing. My parents the same. They don't stop existing. That energy is still alive and nobody can take that away from us. 

[00:12:09] Angela Kennecke: While Gladys words can be comforting, learning to live beyond the loss is definitely a challenge. Everyone processes grief and sorrow differently, and according to the National Institutes of Health, up to a third of the people most directly affected by a major loss Such as the death of a spouse or a child will suffer detrimental effects on their physical and mental health or both.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:12:36] Angela Kennecke: that hole will always be there. I've heard an analogy that, you know, beauty can grow around the hole, that's in your heart, if you allow it, and I think that that is true, I think you can have two emotions at the same time. recently heard President Joe Biden, who has suffered great personal loss in his life, say that when you get to the point where you have a thought about that person that you're missing so much and it brings a smile, and then the tears come instead of the tears, you know, because of your personal loss. I just thought, yeah, I'm, getting to that point where I have a memory of Emily and it makes me smile instead of just immediately that tear jerk reaction of what I have lost.

You know?

But it takes, I'm, years out here and it takes . A long time. I mean, you don't get that in the first few years. It's just what you've lost. 

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:13:31] Angela Kennecke: In coping with their profound loss, ed and his wife have chosen to channel their grief into helping others. They established a nonprofit and memory of Charlie named Song. For Charlie, the foundation is dedicated to raising awareness about the dangers of fentanyl and fake pills.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:13:52] Ed Ternan: what struck Mary and I was that if I had ever heard the word fentanyl before Charlie died, I don't remember hearing right. And so we are a very lucky family in that it was chaos the night that Charlie died and I didn't sleep a wink. and the next morning we got a phone call from a law enforcement officer on the scene and he kind of gave me the skinny. He said, look, you have to wait for the toxicology report, but this is fentanyl. 'cause we were saying. We know that Charlie takes the occasional Xanax. I mean, we don't condone it, but we kind of know that that's on the menu for kids his age to relax and watch Netflix and maybe take a Xanax the way people might, you know, smoke a joint back in the day. that we were scratch our heads with like, how much Xanax would Charlie have to take to kill him? He's 6 2, 2 35, that didn't make any sense. 

And this guy the next day said, this is not Xanax, this is Fentanyl. you know, we have what we call in the beginning that w t f moment, like, what's this Fentanyl? we start Googling and we find out a 16 year old girl died in that county, six months prior. There was a news article about that in the paper. There was some local newscasts about these M thirties that had been found. DEA regional website, the local medical examiner, they had warnings on their websites and Mary and I looked at each other and said, You can put that information there for the next 20 years and Charlie and his friends will never see it. 

So we started Song for Charlie with the mission of taking the warning message about these fake pills directly to kids, take out the middleman and go where they are get them directly as fast as can. we started partner with the social media companies and did a whole lot of social media campaigns and we've reached. Millions, tens of millions of young people over the last few years with hundreds and hundreds of millions of views of our content our social media channels.

[00:15:42] Angela Kennecke: And Song for Charlie. The name comes from obviously Charlie's name. Is it what I think it is 

[00:15:48] Ed Ternan: Back to back to that, it's a great story. So Charlie was I. Again, looked like he was probably a left tackle on the football team. But he really was into music and movies. And as the youngest of three, he had a very wide range of tastes. Right. And his mom and I are. Baby boomers, so he knows everybody from Macklemore to Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, right?

And he could quote lyrics and he could quote, lines from his favorite movies. So he just was known as being like an encyclopedia for pop culture so he loved that kind of stuff. And the day that Charlie died, a young man who's now on our board, his name is Jack Symes with a Y SYMES, he's a songwriter, and Charlie was his biggest fan and was so thrilled that a kid from the neighborhood who Charlie knew was like, Putting stuff on Spotify and he made a record and you know, so Charlie would go to his shows and he would bring him to his campus and be like a promoter for Jack.

Well, when Jack found out that Charlie had died, He sat down that very day and wrote a song called Song for Charlie, and it's beautiful little tune that he wrote on his guitar and he called us the day after Charlie died and said, I can't believe this happened Listen to what I wrote. And so a couple of months later when we were thinking, you know we need to warn the kids that this is happening because we've connected with some other families and found out we're not the only ones. And it seems like it's picking up. We decided to call the nonprofit song for Charlie after Charlie's Love for the Arts that tune that was written because like your nonprofit. We've kind of nicknamed ourselves, team hope 

we're in this because we think we can make a dent in If we just pick our lane of go warn kids and stick to that, we think we can, you know, do as much as we can as two, just private citizens. A couple here who are mourning and, and. That's kind of what we focus on, doing. And so we're hopeful that what we're doing is reaching some kids and making some difference and changing some hearts and minds, and that really helps us with our mental health and our grieving, to stay in that place of hope, you know?

[00:17:51] Angela Kennecke: Right, one of the reasons why Emily's Hope is named. Emily's Hope is because we want to offer hope for others. You know, I don't have any more hope for my daughter's life, obviously, but I can have hope for the lives of other young people. But also, Emily was named after Emily Dickinson, and my favorite poem and her favorite poem Hope is a Thing with Feathers. And so I speak to kids, I talk to them about that. And very famous poem. And it is a way that hope is always, staying alive no matter what happens. The little seed of hope can be there.

[00:18:23] Ed Ternan: that's right.

[00:18:24] Angela Kennecke: (MUSIC UP!) 

hope may be more crucial now than ever before. A record number, a record number of Americans are dying from illicit drugs with no apparent signs of the crisis ending. According to the latest data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, more than 111, 000 Americans lost their lives to drug overdoses. are fentanyl poisonings over the last 12 month period ending in April. Of particular concern are the counterfeit prescription pills, similar to those that claimed Charlie's life. The CDC has issued a stark alert, revealing that the number of deadly overdoses involving these deceptive pills had doubled in just two years. In some regions, rates even tripled.

 (MUSIC UP) 

[00:19:13] Ed Ternan: Because of these pills that are just everywhere now. And because of the potency of the raw material of choice, which is illicit fentanyl, and the inconsistent dosing the mental health crisis that's going on with our youth and the fact that they're familiar with prescription pills. Tend to reach for them, they're easy. there's a new category victim that has emerged, which are these younger kids who maybe are first, second or third time they're out trying stuff or trying to escape or take the pain away.

get one of these hot pills and that's all it takes.

[00:19:48] Angela Kennecke: And we are a pill culture. Kids are very comfortable taking pills. In my daughter's case, it started with pills. started with Xanax pills. addition to marijuana, which is now very culturally acceptable. And not for the developing brain, but you know, it started with those things and it progressed.

So you're right. It's just kids are not afraid to experiment. They think it's okay, and they think a pill is safer than something else they could do.

[00:20:12] Ed Ternan: that's right. And one of the things that we say is, I mean, just full disclosure, I'm in recovery. I've been sober eight years now. And Charlie has, Alcoholism in the family tree is around, and we don't know how Charlie would've, come to terms with substances as he moved into adulthood. Right. But we'll

never know he didn't

get the chance that, that young people had, say, 10 years ago, where they could experiment a little bit and

try some stuff and then kind of grow out of that risky behavior and say, all right, look, I, I prefer red wine to beer and maybe I'll smoke the occasional joint. He didn't get that chance, like so many other young kids were in that

earlier stage. They're taken out by one of these pills.

[00:20:53] Angela Kennecke: Right. And my daughter was only 21. And I often think, 20 years ago, people had a chance. Mm-hmm. You know, to get better to go to rehab. You don't even have that chance now,

[00:21:03] Ed Ternan: Yes. It's, really changed and, we describe it in terms of the landscape. It's kind of a, a term that everybody understands. We say the landscape has changed, there's been a seismic shift. And when I was growing up, we would describe drug use. And what I was warned about was it was kind of like a journey or a path and the warning you got and you know, and I'm, in my early sixties, right? So this is a long time ago, but it was If you get off on the wrong track, you could eventually be harmed. And now that landscape, it's no longer like a path, it's more like a minefield where the first, second or third time a kid steps out there could be their last because the drug supply is just so unknowable and, and volatile.

 (MUSIC UP) 

[00:21:43] Angela Kennecke: Not only is the drug supply volatile, but drug dealers are also constantly changing their tactics to reach new customers. including through social media. 

 (MUSIC UP) 

[00:21:54] Angela Kennecke: I wanna talk to you too about social media responsibility for this crisis of young people dying from one pill or one pill can kill.

We've all heard that by now, but I have talked to several people. I think Laura Didier actually volunteers for Song For Charlie. lost her son by taking one pill. I've talked to Sam Chapman. That's a very famous case. Sammy Chapman in California took one pill. He was 16. I've also talked to Bridgette and Tom Norring.

 (MUSIC UP) 

[00:22:21] Angela Kennecke: I had the opportunity to meet Bridget and Tom Noring at a DEA Family Summit in Omaha.

Their story is just one among many, as they're part of a group of families taking legal action against Snapchat's parent company. Tragically, their 19 year old son, Devin, lost his life after buying what he thought was a Percocet through Snapchat, only to find out it was a deadly dose of fentanyl.

[00:22:50] Tom Norring: They're using the geotracking on Snapchat to find new customers, too.

We found the dealers. Right, in their area. So, the locator, yep. So that's how they're able to prey on these kids. And something that I think is important to bring up That's changed in the sort of way these deals take place. And since one time we were kids is these drugs are being delivered to your doorstep.

They're being delivered by kids who probably look just like your kid. They may be, I went to school with them just because your kids at home doesn't mean they're safe, unfortunately. We felt like, okay, Devin's at home. It's a Friday night. What a safer place for him to be then at home with us and in his bedroom.

Unfortunately, that wasn't the case because of the way that Snapchat and these drug dealers use the platforms like Snapchat. And bring the drugs directly to your home now.

 (MUSIC UP) 

[00:23:38] Angela Kennecke: In episode 104 of Grieving Out Loud, the Noreens shared how they initially tried reaching out to Snapchat's parent company in hopes of revol in hopes of resolving their concerns before taking legal action. They felt unheard. However, Ed describes having a different experience.

[00:24:07] Ed Ternan: (MUSIC UP) We're here in Southern California where Snap is headquartered. They're not in Silicon Valley, . So we had reached out to them and we ended up on the Today Show on a segment with Sam Chapman and Laura Berman about Sammy's death Kate Snow. 

 (MUSIC TRANSITION HERE!) 

[00:24:22] Today Show: This morning we are digging into a darker side of social media. It's aimed at young people. The same place they used to connect is also where they could find just about anything for sale. Yeah, literally. NBC senior national correspondent Kate Snow joins us with more on this one. Kate, good morning. 

 (QUICK MUSIC TRANSITION) 

[00:24:37] Ed Ternan: That was in February of 2021 and by March of 2021 we broke through and we got through the people, the executives at Snap. And we said to them, you have a problem. And we were kind of direct with them and very tough on them. And we said, your platform is being used to sell these pills, and I know that you and all social media platforms believe you have guardrails on your app to prevent drug dealing and drug dealing is not allowed. We get that. What you don't know is Percocets being sold on your app are not Percocets. So the idea of this counterfeiting, these pills was not widely known by anyone in 20 20 21. And so they kind of took that in and came back to us within a week and they said, we've looked across, scanned the horizon your little Humpty Dumpty website that you built pretty much is the only place we can find good information about these fake pills. But we're convinced this is a problem, and so will you partner with us to help us figure this out? 

So we've been working actively with the people at Snap since that time, say March, April of 2021. We do p s a campaigns. We had hundreds of millions of views. We participate with Shatterproof and the C d C and others in a, portal that they've built.

So when kids search for a drug term, this heads up portal comes up. Interrupts the search and comes up first and it has information about drugs and drug use. Song Charlie focuses on the Fentanyl crisis. I serve now on their Global Safety Advisory Board, which is a group of experts from around the globe dealing with all kinds of concerns about safety and harm to children online. And I serve on that board, the two people on that board who are charged with keeping the drug issue top of mind with the executive of Snap are. Myself and former drugs czar Jim Carroll. So we attend quarterly meetings and we're in on the progress they're making and the efforts they're taking on to make their app just as hostile as they possibly can for drug dealers. So I have a lot of opinions about what's going on with, so media And in general, I think when you want change, there are two roads you can take and they're not necessarily mutually exclusive, right? 

You can coerce or you can convince I. So I have been able to convince the people at Snap and through them they have made introductions at Meta and TikTok and we know people that, we have someone from Google on our board of directors, someone at YouTube on our board of directors.

We have been able to convince tech companies the social media platforms we need an all of internet solution. And there's stuff going on behind the scenes where they're sharing signals and data between themselves, even though they're competitors, to make it more difficult for drug dealers to exploit kids on their app. 

Now the coerced side, if you wanna sue them, that's fine. That's fair too. We thought we could have a quicker impact by working with them, getting their buy-in, getting them to be part of the solution and to an assertive stance on, the issue. And they've done that.

[00:27:49] Angela Kennecke: Yeah, it's so interesting because is a lot of. Division, even among parents who've lost kids in this way of the best way to handle it. You know, the way, done it is to partner with the social media companies to try to spur change from within. Right. And the way that they're doing it is by suing or in some cases, I, spoke to the founder of Lost Voices of Fentanyl.

It's a mother from the east coast and . We observe Fentanyl Awareness Day, but they won't observe it because of the affiliation with companies like Snap and Meta, you know, where these pills are being sold. So I think that, right. I mean, there's no very way to approach it. There's different approaches, but it would be nice if everybody . Who has lost a child in this manner we're all on the same page. 

[00:28:35] Ed Ternan: Yeah, 

and if you think about it, here's why. When someone loses a child, I think the percentage of them that pick themselves up dust themselves off and say, I want to get involved in change, is maybe 20%. Right. I think

most people, man, they, get on with their lives and they pick up the pieces and do the best they can, so, That 20% who get involved are doers, they are

type a they know what they want. They know how they want to do what they're going to do. And they really don't want to take direction from anyone else. And by the way, I'm talking about myself. Okay. So, you know, I wanna run song for Charlie the way I wanna run it. And I'm very confident in the position we've taken and the strategy that we're putting out there. I make it a personal policy and also an organizational to not criticize other groups and the paths that they have taken.

'cause far be it from me. My grief counselor said very early on, I said, I'm a little concerned about, looking like I'm profiting on my son's death because I'm starting an organization in his name.

And she said, no, no, no, no. 

No, stop right there. If you can find anything to give yourself a sense of purpose through this tragedy, you grab onto that. You run with it because that's the most healing thing you can do.

So I will not criticize whatever path another family takes to heal. I. I just won't do it. Not publicly, not privately. but at the same time, I would like to get the same kind of grace back in terms of what we're doing is having an impact. We're just doing the best we can. We're playing the cards, we were dealt, we were able to get to these people. And we're running with that and we think we're making progress.

And 

[00:30:16] Angela Kennecke: Yeah, it can be frustrating. You know, I've been working on this since 2019. Left my full-time job in broadcasting, getting close to a year ago now, just to concentrate fully on this. And I think sometimes you can feel like you're making a big difference in what we are both doing. But other times it feels like it's never enough. You don't really know often too where your message really resonated. Who really got and who made a choice, not do something because they heard about your son's story or my daughter's story, or they heard you speak or they, you know, they got the message in whatever way it was through social media.

We, we don't know, it's hard to quantify or qualify.

[00:31:01] Ed Ternan: Right. I think that's why it's okay to be satisfied to do your little part, right? So I'm not under any illusion that, and, and I'm not trying to position Song for Charlie as the one who's going to solve this problem. It is a hydra, it's a hydra headed monster with lots of different aspects to it 

we, are trying to get through our day, right? We're wounded people, our hearts are broken. And so we just get up every day and say what I'm doing and everybody brings their own background to it, right? So I'm a businessman. That's my background. So I don't do a lot of political advocacy. My personal opinion is that takes a long time. What I know how to do is build teams and build companies, and that's what I'm doing. I'm building a communications company that creates and distributes informational educational material about drug use and self-medication in the age of fentanyl and other synthetics. 

take that directly to kids through our new initiative for parents. Called the new Drug Talk, connect to protect. We're taking it into the home. 

That's what I do. I get up in the morning, I put one foot in front of the other, and I do that every day and I try to go to bed tired and get a good night's sleep, and that's about all I can handle, right? So Other people, we need to change laws. The fact that I work with social media companies doesn't mean that I don't think everything's great with social media. I do not. And and so I salute people who are trying to do internet reform. I don't have the bandwidth to do both, right? I can't go to every meeting. I can't go to every rally. I'm just trying to get through my day. 

So I think people like you and I maybe can take a little comfort in saying just doing our own little bit within what we're capable of has to be enough. And you know what? It is enough, Angela, because you've reached a lot of people, and I know people say this to you, like they say it to me, you've saved lives. You may not know it, but you have, right?

[00:32:48] Angela Kennecke: You hope Yeah. You hope Right,

So what do you think is going to make the most difference and save the most lives? In this effort that we are all doing our little parts in , you know, across the country, those of us who have chosen to do so or who have been forced into this situation through loss, what do you think is going to end this overdose epidemic or fentanyl?

I always say overdose slash fentanyl poisoning We know about 80% they CDc labels as overdose from fentanyl.

[00:33:20] Ed Ternan: Yeah, that's right. 

As I got into this, I see the kind of stakeholder groups and the lanes people go down, broken up into three general areas. And again, I think like a businessman. So supply and demand, right. I. Supply reduction is interdiction at the border arrest. Drug dealers get it off the street once it's here. Law enforcement, demand reduction, drug prevention and education and harm reduction, which are tactics for people who are further along in their, journey. 

There are good ideas and necessary strategies in every one of those areas. Not one of them can stand tall and say, if you had all just been doing it my way all along, none of this would be happening. No wrong start from a level playing field. We have not figured this out as a society yet. Right. So we need the good parts of all those three working together to address this. Now, I, focus, and my organization focuses kind of in the similar space to you because it's where I can contribute as a private citizen and have the biggest impact most quickly. that is demand reduction through education and awareness. 

And so that's where we. Really focus is if we tell young people, and now like I said, we have this new initiative for parents. If we tell young people and families, It's not the old drug talk, it's the new drug talk. And that is the drug supply is tainted. Things are different now. They're all chemical based because it's more profitable for the drug traffickers and therefore when you're out there, you're not dealing with plant-based substances whose potency is somewhat limited. dealing with Really potent stuff of unknown dosages, and a lot of them are fake. We play up a lot of that deception in our messaging. And we say like, just like there's no real chicken in a nugget, there's no real Xanax on Snapchat, right? 

 So I don't think that There's any one thing that's gonna end this. I think it's a combination of those three areas working together. again, the work we do on social media and online, the way I look at it is our fellow family advocates at the grassroots level, even though we're not joined together in unison, we're driving this change. It is happening bottom up. I'm convinced of that. So what role, can I play? This is the way I put it. If we stick with the war on drugs analogy, a lot of people are fighting the ground game. Legislative advocacy. get laws passed. Convince the government to do more of this or that, or the other thing. Have your rallies. 

That takes time. It's important work. It has to be done. I support it right now. Where can I help? I'm like the Air Force. can use my connections in social media to carpet bomb the country with awareness, information. right. To buy my comrades on the ground time to get the work that they need to do done. And that's, in a way, I think what we're doing compliments these other family groups that way.

[00:36:14] Angela Kennecke: Right. I think we all have our roles. think you're correct. And I always say, and I'm not gonna leave dads out, but it's gonna take a bunch of angry mothers and fathers, to really make a change in this country and a change in how we look at substance use disorder. The drug supply teach our children. All of it all of it, right? So, and, and people scream about the border. And every social media post I make, there's a post about the border. And yes, there are things we have to do concerning drugs coming across the border, but it's a much more complicated problem than that.

And you have to remember that about 80% of the drugs, . They're being dealt by fellow Americans. So you have Americans killing other Americans, and I keep repeating this because I want people to understand Yes, the drug cartels in Mexico are bad. They're, found a cheap, easy. Thing to use and to saturate the market with this. And they don't have our best interests at heart. and China's role in it as a whole other thing. But you have to remember, once it gets into this country, it's being dealt mostly by

[00:37:15] Ed Ternan: right, and oftentimes Americans with US driver's license and license plates driving south across the border and coming back. Right? and The way I think about this a little bit on the global picture is when I hear things like, China's killing us, the cartels are killing us, what can we do about it? Well, the first thing we could do is stop helping them, right. Because we created this self-medication escapist culture. Young kids just reach for a pill, instant gratification. You know, the, the drug education has fallen off in the schools.

We've You know, dare didn't work. morphed into drug education doesn't work, which is just not true. If it's done right, it's very effective. So within our own borders, there's a lot we can do to really put a, dent in this much as we'd like to, we do not control policy or law enforcement in Mexico or China. don't, and we're not going to anytime so what can I do here within our borders is my focus.

[00:38:11] Angela Kennecke: and you're right. Studies show that DARE didn't work. That's why at Emily's Hope we've developed a new prevention education curriculum K through five, and we've launched that this year, along with a new um, education website and portal emily's hope edu.org, and I'll put some . Links to that if people wanna check that out. That's our little corner of the world, you know, that we're working on. And I really think we need to get to kids at a younger age before I always say, while their teachers and their parents have more influence on them than their peers and social media and so, we need to get that message across about how dangerous drugs are in age appropriate ways, and what they do to the brain.

[00:38:50] Ed Ternan: What I love about that, Angela, is you're starting so young because our focus so far has been kind of like The kids who are on social media. Right. So 13 to 25. Right.

But kind late. and I think about another thing here that we have in our heads that there's this kind of specific dividing line between, on the one hand, like legal, therefore regulated, therefore safe medicines. And on the other side of that line, illegal, therefore unregulated unsafe drugs. Well, Two things, right? the opioid crisis in Purdue Pharma dispelled the myth that the legal stuff are not harm free, number one. Number two, the counterfeiting. Of illegal substances masquerading as the safe legal ones has completely blurred that line. We need to rethink how we talk about drugs, especially to kids, especially to young kids. I love what you're doing. You teach them between is a medicine, what it for, right? Johnny gets this because he has a cough. Sally, you don't get any, 'cause you're not sick. And when Johnny feels better, he's not gonna have any more. It's that kind of cultural shift in mindset around medications, drugs, substances needs to start right where you're playing. It's super important in my mind.

[00:40:08] Angela Kennecke: Yeah. Well, I love everything you're doing as well, so thank you for that. And I wonder if you might leave us with, you know, how Charlie plays a role in all this, yet today, how Charlie stays with you in your heart. as you're doing all this important work to educate young people to get on social media, to get the messages out there.

[00:40:29] Ed Ternan: Yeah, we, feel Charlie with us every day. Mary feels it differently than I do. And to be honest, we're on a spiritual journey. I think all of us that have suffered a loss like this. Uh, One way I like to think about is our hearts are broken, but if, if possible it it's better if our hearts are broken open. 

And so a lot of parents go through kind of a spiritual awakening with the loss of a child. we're experiencing some of that. My head is too thick for anything to get through from the other dimension, I think, but Mary will tell me all the time, ed, you are not smart enough. To do everything you're pulling off with Song for Charlie without some help from Charlie.

Right? And so we kind of that. We honor Charlie every day by trying to like, you stay hopeful because Charlie, like I said, was a no drama guy. He wasn't Confrontational. And he would want us to Be concerned about protecting kids and giving them some alternatives for healthier ways to cope. he would be pleased, I think, with hopeful strategy that we've taken.

[00:41:28] Angela Kennecke: Well, thank you for everything that you're doing in Charlie's name.

[00:41:31] Ed Ternan: Thank you, yeah, it. for having me on. Thanks

 (MUSIC UP) 

[00:41:34] Ed Ternan: Thank you for listening to this episode of Grieving Out Loud. You can find out more information about Song for Charlie, along with our Emily's Hope K 5 curriculum, by checking out the podcast show notes. While you're there, we'd appreciate it if you'd give this podcast a positive review and share it with your loved ones.

It helps further our mission to increase awareness about our nation's drug epidemic and decrease the stigma surrounding substance use disorder, hopefully getting more people the help they desperately need. Thank you again for spending your valuable time with us. We'll leave you now with the song for Charlie by Jack Symes.

Wishing you faith, hope, and courage. 

 (Song for Charlie by Jack Symes 42:21-) 

[00:42:17] Ed Ternan: This podcast is produced by Casey Wonnenberg King and Anna Fey.