[00:00:00] Angela Kennecke: Kay Sumner is an Emmy nominated producer and film director who's received two People's Choice Awards. Her claim to fame includes being the co-creator and producer of the renowned show, the Dog Whisperer with Cesar Milan. But her most recent project aims to change lives. (MUSIC UP!) ​

[00:00:36] Film "Survivor": Heroin is an isolative drug. I like to be by myself with my heroin. Nobody else. It's me and heroin. When I was really in the depths of my addiction, if I didn't have anything to do that day, I would take a shot, five or ten minutes later, another shot. Sometimes I'd prepare two syringes so I could do them one after the other.

I remember having a friend and you go over to his house, it's a very normal house, two dogs, cars, uh, little kids, and the car's not there. What happened to your car, man? Where's your car? I sold it. Why did you sell your car? Because I needed to get drugs?

 (quick music bridge) 

[00:01:15] Angela Kennecke: And thus begins the narrative of Survivor, the latest creation from Kay Sumner and her husband Murray. This compelling documentary ventures into the real stories of triumph over opioid addiction and the heart wrenching tales of loss. However, for the Sumners, the film is more than just a project. It's a channel for grief and a heartfelt tribute to their late son, 

A talented musician, their own son's life was tragically cut short by a drug overdose at the age of 43.

[00:01:54] Kay Sumner: First of all, I am determined that when life has been stolen and it's not gonna steal my life. I am going to try to be, and I think Murray feels the same way, as active as we can to change the dialogue. I produced Dog Whisperer, and we changed the dialogue about dogs. People walk their dogs now, now I wanna change the dialogue about. Kids being addicted. It's not your kids that are wildly partying, that are doing heroin, fentanyl. It's the sensitive ones. It's the really kind, thoughtful ones

 (MUSIC UP and down!) ​

[00:02:33] Angela Kennecke: A story that hits close to home for thousands of parents, including me. I'm Angela Kennecke. This is Grieving Out Loud. I hope today's conversation leaves you informed, empowered, and perhaps even changes the course of this challenging narrative.

 (QUICK MUSIC BRIDGE) 

[00:03:02] Angela Kennecke: Well, Kay and Murray, welcome to Grieving Out Loud. I always say this when I interview parents who have also lost a child to overdose slash fentanyl poisoning that I'm so grateful to meet you, but I'm so sorry about the circumstances that bring us together.

[00:03:19] Murray Sumner: Yes, 

[00:03:20] Kay Sumner: we agree.

[00:03:21] Angela Kennecke: and your son, Josh, he was a little older than many. Parents that I talked to whose children have died. So tell me about Josh and how many kids do you guys have?

[00:03:32] Kay Sumner: we have, four kids and five grandchildren and five great-grandchildren.

[00:03:39] Angela Kennecke: Wow. Wow. where was Josh in, all of that.

[00:03:44] Kay Sumner: Josh was the youngest. He was born on my birthday, which kind of ruins all birthdays. was a jazz musician and he a New york when he started this, from what I I understand. felt we were very close to him. We to him a lot. we made sure we went to New York and he came here to visit us. 

he loved music from the time he was like 10 years old and the saxophone was bigger than him. had to, he had to wait a while to grow, to get bigger and actually play the saxophone. Yeah. And then he, just felt he was obsessed with it. And a teacher from schools said, look, this kid really has talent. You need to invest in special teachers. And so, which we did, 

it was in Toronto in the winter I was taking him to these lessons. It would be, you know, 20 below in the snow driving way the heck out to this jazz musician that taught him so early on. We found that, that's really what he wanted to do. He wasn't interested in sports, he wasn't interested. That much in anything else, it just absorbed them.

[00:05:00] Angela Kennecke: It sounds like he had incredible talent. Also, you sacrificed a lot for your child, which I think we all did as parents, right? And then to have their story in this way seems like such a waste in a way. But I think about the talent that Josh had as a musician. My daughter was a talented artist. 

So many people I talk to whose children either become addicted or die from their addiction, have kids that were very talented and also very sensitive. Was Josh sensitive?

[00:05:29] Kay Sumner: Very. Yeah, and, and I think that to me, it's one the keys that hits them harder. 

[00:05:38] Angela Kennecke: Yes.

Yes 

[00:05:38] Kay Sumner: Everything emotionally can be stronger. to tell you about his personality though, once he could play the saxophone at like 12, we took him to a place where he could, the street busk.

[00:05:53] Murray Sumner: Yeah. Took him to street busking

[00:05:55] Angela Kennecke: Oh, oh yeah.

[00:05:57] Murray Sumner: Yeah. It was quite, comical because, you know, it was clear that he, had a talent and he wasn't gonna get another job. So we okay, we're gonna put you down on the street and you're gonna busk for a living. See no. see what these talented musicians actually do to, to make a living.

[00:06:12] Kay Sumner: Well, we watched him, you know, ? Yeah, 

[00:06:14] Angela Kennecke: Yeah, you, you were nearby. You were nearby. You didn't just drop your kid off. Yeah.

got it. 

[00:06:19] Kay Sumner: Exactly, and he made so much money. I, I think this is like eighties. got like a $20 tip and by the time we left, he'd given it all away. 

[00:06:30] Angela Kennecke: Oh, so a generous, generous as well. 

[00:06:34] Murray Sumner: yeah. 

 (MUSIC UP) 

[00:06:35] Angela Kennecke: Josh's spirit of generosity didn't stop there. When he made his way to the bustling streets of New York City in 2002 to chase his musical dreams, he extended a helping hand to young musicians also finding their footing in the city. He played a role in connecting them with affordable housing, a kind gesture that didn't go unnoticed.

In fact, the New York Times recognized his efforts and showcased his story in one of their articles 

[00:07:06] Kay Sumner: (MUSIC UP!) He was like a social worker. Believe it or not, young musicians used to come into New York to get involved with the jazz world. They didn't have place to stay, so Josh introduced him. To a vegetable seller., who knew all the little ladies in Harlem who had big apartments and not enough people in them cuz their, children had grown up left them alone.

So he between Josh had the kids and the vegetable player had the widows and they teamed up to live together. It wasn't quite Airbnb, but the young men would go and take out the garbage and help widows, so he was 

always helping people.

Mm-hmm.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:07:52] Angela Kennecke: as Josh built up a network of positive connections. He also met a few people who would negatively impact his life. One of his fellow musicians guided him down a troubling path, introducing him to heroin at a time when he was grappling with a difficult breakup.

[00:08:13] Kay Sumner: (MUSIC UP!) the trumpet player was a heroin addict and he went through a rough point, in his life, Here he is in a tiny little apartment with the woman he loves and. It didn't work out. so it was difficult to live under the circumstances and his trumpet players said, well, try this. You'll feel better. And indeed he oh. did. (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:08:36] Angela Kennecke: Yet that initial sense of euphoria quickly faded in a matter of weeks. Josh was dealing with a hectic schedule of three jobs, all while wrestling a persistent heroin addiction. Even with these challenges, Josh managed to keep his struggles hidden from his family. (MUSIC UP!) 

did he come to you at some point and say, I, I have a problem.

[00:09:01] Kay Sumner: No. Um, someone else told me, girlfriend he was going out with said, did you know, cause you couldn't tell. You absolutely tell his behavior. he looked kind of pale, but as a jazz musician, he's up at night all the time,

[00:09:16] Murray Sumner: oh, so we were on opposite coast. 

Yeah. 

[00:09:19] Angela Kennecke: at some some point, did he turn to you for help then?

[00:09:22] Kay Sumner: he didn't want us to know. 

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:09:23] Angela Kennecke: It's unfortunate, but also very common. Many times family members are the last ones to find out when someone is struggling with addiction. On Grieving Out Loud, I've had the privilege of talking to dozens of people who face substance use disorder head on. What's striking is how many of them felt this overwhelming sense of shame, which made it incredibly hard for them to confide in their own families. Just recently, we had an eye-opening chat in one of our podcast episodes with Chris Herron, a former N B A player. He shared his personal journey of wrestling with substance use disorder for years. What really struck me was how Chris went to great lengths to keep his struggle hidden from his wife and children .

 (very quick music bridge) 

[00:10:08] Angela Kennecke: And at this time you're married You've married this whole time you've got little kids they know what's going on you hiding it What's happening

[00:10:16] Chris Herren: hiding Yes It know I really you know thing I try families all the time my brain never stopped hiding You know everything in in my life had to do with hiding I hard and why sometimes families find out much you know my brain operating all day long on to keep going and not let anyone down that loved me

 (QUICK MUSIC UP!) 

[00:10:45] Angela Kennecke: Once Kay discovered her son was struggling with addiction, she made an effort to have conversations with him about it regularly. They discussed the issue as often as they could, working together to find solutions and treatment. 

[00:11:01] Kay Sumner: And he did go on Suboxone, and then he tried to get off really hard. He tried for a year to get off of it each day, like a little bit less every day 

[00:11:15] Angela Kennecke: Do you think he really needed to get off of it? Do you think? That was necessary because now I've heard that Suboxone is a gold standard for treating opioid addiction. And if you have to stay on it for years, you stay on it for years, whatever, you know, as long as you're functioning well.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:11:29] Angela Kennecke: If you're not familiar with the drug, it's now one of the main medications used to treat opioid addiction. However, it is an opiate as some people are wary of the drug. But Dr. Hannah's Statz DeVries explains that it's a partial agonist of the main opiate receptor. That means it induces far less euphoria compared to other opiates like heroin and oxycodone.

[00:11:59] Dr. Hannah Statz DeVries: It's a treatment that we have. We see people succeed. I see people that get jobs, they get their life back. They go on to be able to do the things that they once loved. Uh, Yeah. It's what are you replacing? You're replacing an opioid and some people can't get past t hat kind of picture of, gosh, I'm just replacing one with the other.

And where I kind of try to counsel patients is, is, hey, we're providing you something that we know what it is. We're helping you, we're getting you through treatment, we're getting you to some sobriety. And in the future, should you wanna try to taper off of this? We can give it a try. I just ask that you're honest with me.

If you're struggling with it. 

[00:12:35] Angela Kennecke: How many people need to be on it like forever? Can you be on it forever? 

[00:12:38] Dr. Hannah Statz DeVries: You know, you can. What I will say is I have seen people come off it and relapse.

You're a sobriety and they're like, Hey, I wanna stop. I'll say, if you're writing, you wanna do this, just. Please work with me, talk with me, let me know how this goes. And then I've had patients stop it that actually did it on their own, kept continuing to see me and they said, Hey, I'm down to a milligram. I'm like, wait, what? And they just didn't wanna be on it cuz they saw it as a crutch. And so, , close follow up and you know, making sure they've got those other supports can be helpful too. 

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:13:07] Angela Kennecke: Kay says she that. Kay says her son hated the thought of being addicted to anything. He worked hard to quit using Suboxone, but looking back, that may not have been the best choice.

 (QUICK MUSIC BRIDGE) 

[00:13:23] Kay Sumner: And the last thing I really clearly remember him saying to me is he knocked on my door. He was visiting us and said, mom, I got through the night with no Suboxone, cuz he'd taken just a tiny little bit less every couple days to gradually. Wean himself up. Then he went back to New York, to the same people started getting panicky that he couldn't play the saxophone without it, or he wouldn't be as talented. I don't know.

The cravings got to him. He tried to go to AA for, drug addicted people. But there were dealers outside. He said the temptation was just, you come out of the meeting, the dealers would be lined up to sell to you 

any

[00:14:07] Murray Sumner: note free samples.

[00:14:08] Angela Kennecke: Oh, 

yeah. Ultimately what happened then?

[00:14:11] Kay Sumner: he was seemingly doing well, but when he went back to New York, he was around the same old people the cravings got to him We're talking, he was in here in October and he died December 7th, so it wasn't very long.

[00:14:28] Murray Sumner: He had a gig, that afternoon actually. out next day?

[00:14:33] Angela Kennecke: in his apartment 

or

[00:14:34] Murray Sumner: Yes. found in, in, where he lived alone.

[00:14:37] Angela Kennecke: At 43 years old, Josh was at the height of his musical career when he died from taking heroin laced with fentanyl. Here's Josh playing the song, "If Ever I Should Leave You.".

How do you think you've best coped with the loss of Josh?

[00:15:08] Kay Sumner: Well, first of all, I am determined that when life has been stolen and it's not gonna steal my life. I am going to try to be, and I think Murray feels the same way, as active as we can to change the dialogue. I produced dog Whisperer and we changed the dialogue about dogs. People walk their dogs now, now I wanna change the dialogue about. Kids being addicted. It's not your kids that are wildly partying, that are doing heroin, fentanyl. It's the sensitive ones. It's the really kind, thoughtful ones are hurting, and we might not even know why they're hurting it can be so accidental they can just go try some. They needed party and now when you add fentanyl to the mix,

[00:15:59] Angela Kennecke: right,

[00:15:59] Kay Sumner: it's even candy when. Local seven year old who died cuz she was given a candy at school for a friend.

[00:16:08] Angela Kennecke: I know that's one of the things we're trying to teach in our education curriculum is that, for kids, they can't take anything from anybody, you know? It's, terrifying. It's a terrifying world right now with fentanyl in it. But you are really trying to do something about it with filmers. And so it's a natural fit that you would put out a film called survivors, untold stories in America's Opioid Crisis. And I've been watching that documentary, I'm just blown away by it.

[00:16:34] Murray Sumner: Thank you. yes, we have at this point, I think 23 film festival awards

[00:16:40] Angela Kennecke: Congratulations.

[00:16:41] Murray Sumner: from both Europe, north America, and uh, couple places around the world.

[00:16:46] Kay Sumner: But know, from the rank and file people, middle class people, they don't believe it's gonna happen to their kids. I right? it. 

[00:16:55] Angela Kennecke: Me 

[00:16:55] Kay Sumner: And, I, it's hard to get them to watch anything or even talk about it.

They just wanna change the subject. So with that film, we took those middle class people, we wanted to understand how, I mean, in my mind, Doing heroin would be the last thing I would possibly want to do. How could anybody get trapped with that? Why would they want to? So I had to figure it out. Murray and I decided we would go and we would ask, so we asked about 50 people. The people in the film or just examples, 

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:17:28] Angela Kennecke: Examples of people taking that first step of trying a substance, then finding their way through the depths of addiction, and finally, a path to recovery. But let's face it, in some gut wrenching instances, it ends with heartbreak and loss. Here's a sneak peek from the documentary.

 (QUICK MUSIC BRIDGE) 

[00:17:52] Film "Survivor": I was the head of cheerleading and he was a football captain. And we were top of our class. We were very popular. We weren't what you would look and say, Oh, they, you know, they have a problem. We didn't go to any bad part of town to start doing drugs. It came to us. 

It was a very comfortable neighborhood. You know, everybody, you know, working families, but for the most part, you know, it was upper middle class as well. So all their kids went to college, everybody took vacations, and, you know, we had barbecues.

It was a nice neighborhood, a two story house. Our kids went to a great school. We had all that we could, we thought, that we needed in life. 

I was injured at work. I worked in a factory and, um, hurt my back and had two surgeries. I was prescribed pain medicine, Percocet, and um, I went through about a year and a half of being very addicted to that, to the Percocet.

 I started on pain pills. It was a Vicodin that I took for the very first time from my boyfriend. And I had, up until that point, bragged, like, that I could not get addicted to anything. And so I, I took it kind of innocently, thinking this is, you know, just another drug I'm gonna do and, and move on with my life.

And I remember the first time that I took it feeling like, this is it. I felt like it was what I had needed. It numbed me enough inside that it was like, this is... I love this. Let's do this. We have this thing called social media, and it's now become cool to post pictures of yourself getting loaded at parties. And high schoolers are doing this on the regular. Getting loaded and the whole drug scene gets looked upon as like a cool thing now. I've had buddies post videos of themselves snorting lines of cocaine and just getting hammered at parties. And then you look at all the comments on there, people would be like, save me a line.

 (MUSIC UP) 

[00:19:48] Angela Kennecke: As the Sumners channeled their own grief into their film making, it became a way to turn their sorrow into something positive. However, there were moments when listening to the stories were overwhelming.

[00:20:14] Kay Sumner: (MUSIC UP!) I would go in the bathroom and choke back the tears and say, Hey, wait a minute. You're professional. You've been this kind of stuff for 40 years. You can get out there can just be professional. And there's, there's many stories that didn't make it, that were chilling. 

[00:20:31] Murray Sumner: We have 50 hours of interviews that we had to cut down to less than an hour,

[00:20:36] Angela Kennecke: that had to be really tough as someone who's had to edit things, I, I don't know. That had to be a really tough job. 

[00:20:42] Murray Sumner: But the thing is they're all good stories and we plan on, putting them up in whole without editing really, because they just, it was people pouring out their hearts about this and where they came from and where they ended up, and they're all very, very interesting stories. And so at some point we'll probably have them up on YouTube.

[00:21:02] Angela Kennecke: And from all walks of life. I found that to be really interesting. You had, professional people, you had young people, you had middle aged people with families, you know, we all have certain ideas in our head, even though this has happened in our family, like, who is gonna do something like that? And it could be anybody. you just don't know.

[00:21:20] Kay Sumner: Well, yeah, some people just got in a car accident and the pain wouldn't go away, and they turned heroin and it destroyed their life. But we talked to A rehab counselor yesterday and he said, I want heroin back cuz fentanyl is killing everybody. Not as many people heroin. 

[00:21:37] Murray Sumner: We kind of feel like we're standing on train tracks and there's a runaway train in the distance coming our way, and we're trying to flag it down, but there's no way that that train is ever gonna stop to not, destroy us and everyone else in its path. So our mission now is to try to get ahead of what is out there. And to do other documentaries or other informative PSAs. But, I think the world really needs to know that these aren't your average, derelicts who are living under the bridge. This is, they could become some our family, our kids, our middle class, upper class, students high school, the achievers. And we don't as filmmakers know how to get ahead of this right now. 

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:22:25] Angela Kennecke: The Sumners, without a doubt, are giving it their all. They've established a nonprofit named Not One More Time, Inc. With the goal of raising awareness about the pressing drug crisis through documentaries and educational resources. To get all the details about the nonprofit and to watch the full documentary just head to this podcast, show notes. While you're there, we truly appreciate your support. A five star review and sharing this podcast with friends and family helps drive our mission even further, decreasing the stigma surrounding substance use disorder, getting more people into treatment, and hopefully preventing future tragedies.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:23:21] Angela Kennecke: did you learn anything while you made the documentary that you didn't know before?

[00:23:25] Kay Sumner: Many things. Yeah. Cause it was, well, why don't you stop doing this? 

But I found out it's practically impossible to stop. that the sickness, how sick they get is terrifying. Even with Josh getting off Suboxone, he said his legs were kicking. He couldn't control it, he couldn't sleep. He'd be sweating, he'd be throwing up. it's just very, very difficult. And then after getting off, the cravings overwhelmed him. So I think we gotta start looking at. Are there any solutions Both changing the dialogue to get away. These are the bad kids to, well, what are the solutions? Because rehab is not working that well either.

[00:24:09] Angela Kennecke: No . why I'm so committed to prevention. I think we've gotta make sure people as many people as possible don't ever start in the first place. Right. 

But you haven't had all happy outcomes with some of your interview subjects in the documentary either. Right?

[00:24:23] Kay Sumner: yeah, unfortunately early on we found out about Chris and he was, uh, poster child of recovery and somehow something happened and he went back and he died. And then we found out two weeks ago, that Shayna died. And she was, throughout the whole story, she was so bold about talking about she was a drug counselor as well.

Mm-hmm. . So I'm kind of heartbreak, broken for all the kids that she was working with. she had so many friends and she was such a delightful person. But again, it was. Her heart was broken over a romantic situation, so when the emotions come in and they don't have a way of solving it, I think they turn to drugs again. 

[00:25:10] Angela Kennecke: yeah, think that the fentanyl out there would be enough to stop people, but nothing stops. People who suffer from this disease of the brain sometimes. You know, and you, talk a lot about, recovery as well in the documentary, because you do have people in recovery. Yes.

They can relapse and die or they may stay in recovery. Was there a common thread that you found? I, I know they always say that connection is the solution to addiction. Was there a common thread that you found in recovery?

[00:25:38] Kay Sumner: I think faith the people who really believed in God and turned themselves over, went to church and, had people support them because your social life to this process gets killed initially. If you start drugs, you're. Normal friends wanna shy away from it. And then you have your okay. drug friends and then once you wanna get off of it, then you lose your drug friends. So the different programs people got into some, the church through aa, numerous ones I think that engagement with. AA and the 12 step program is very positive.

[00:26:20] Murray Sumner: We interviewed a rabbi, we did test screenings of our film and people said, you know, it's just a little too slanted on the faith-based stuff. 

[00:26:28] Angela Kennecke: Oh, but this is what people were telling you, right? I mean, a journalist who interviews people, I would say what they're saying is their story, and that's what I would report, right? 

[00:26:37] Murray Sumner: Exactly. So, you know, in order to it a little bit, we wanted one more perspective, and it is faith-based, but it was a, a rabbi who runs a recovery program down in Culver City, California here. Very successful. an 80% success rate actually of recovery, which we found, outstanding because, Mm-hmm rehabs, which. Are all prevalent here are probably reporting about 20%, and it's all motivated by, insurance, money, et cetera, et cetera, but we won't go there. the point of me is the rabbi said, I'm not concerned about sobriety, I'm concerned about recovery. He said, I know lots of people who are sober who do terrible things, but what I'm concerned about, he says, is, I'm recovering my spirit, recovering my soul, recovering my life again. So it's a spiritual problem. It's a hole in our heart that everyone tries to fill with all of these other things other than what in our opinion, their faith.

 (commercial break - visit www.morethanjustanumber.org) 

[00:27:37] Angela Kennecke: Our love or a greater power, or whatever you wanna call it, but something other than food, sex, drugs, whatever people might turn to. To fill that emptiness.

[00:27:48] Murray Sumner: Yeah. 

[00:27:49] Kay Sumner: We've actually had people want to edit any reference to Jesus out and we're like, I'm sorry, it might be more popular movie, but this is their story and I'm not change anybody's story make a film more popular. Mm-hmm. . So we've been very firm about that.

[00:28:09] Angela Kennecke: Well, and just as no two people are the same. No two addictions are the same. And what may work for someone may not work for somebody else, but if there is a common thread, people need to know about it and because it might work for them. right. And so where are you taking this from here? What's next for you?

[00:28:26] Kay Sumner: Well, one of the most interesting things we're doing, we've teamed up with a college. Santa Monica College has the film program and we're doing an Ethos Film Festival and we're doing a contest for shorts, like one or two minutes, which would be anti-drug messages produced by college students, hopefully across the country. All for TikTok Instagram, because that's where the kids are.

They're not watching TV the place they're gonna be, it's on TikTok or Instagram, so mm-hmm. or the other ones. So that's the contest we're going to be running. And then the shorts will be featured at the Ethos Film Festival in November and Santa Monica 

[00:29:12] Murray Sumner: and our foundation is offering a $1,000 cash prize for the winner.

[00:29:17] Angela Kennecke: Well that's awesome 

[00:29:17] Kay Sumner: yes. Mm-hmm. . And Hopefully it'll motivate. Kids to make these. I think if they make the message, you have to do a certain amount of research in order to do a film, as you know. And if they do the research, they're gonna learn in the process, more about drugs.

[00:29:36] Angela Kennecke: Has this all helped you too, with your grief over the loss of your son, the work that you've done with the documentary, the Foundation, has it helped you?

[00:29:44] Kay Sumner: I'm more mad in a way than grieved because I've had some really wonderful dreams about him. so now I'm just sort of mad. I'm mad at people for not waking up. I'm mad at people for avoiding the subject.  kids that have done this. The grief. I mean, I find myself looking at pictures when he was five years old missing, looking at pictures when he was 20. You know,  I miss him at all different ages. It's,

[00:30:15] Angela Kennecke: Right. How about you, murray? I mean, know people grieve differently. and dads grieve differently.

[00:30:22] Murray Sumner: they do. And Josh's stepfather that that's a different. Level of connection. I mean, I, came into Josh's life when, he was literally in my wife's belly . And, uh, so, you know, I knew him his entire life and, his first words were said to me. So, but, , it is different with mothers, I think, than it is with fathers. No matter whether stepfather or a father. I mean, you know, as men we grow up, conditioned to boing up your emotions and not expressing them well. I happen to be a very sensitive person and, I don't work that way, but, my grief is just different than hers and I express in different ways. And we agreed just early on, look, we cannot wallow just, we really need to take the talents, our God-given talents and basically come outta retirement and tell the world this story. So that's what survivors is.

[00:31:18] Angela Kennecke: Well, thank you for doing that. On that note, we'll up the podcast, but we'll put the, documentary write on our webpage. We'll share links in all the show notes and we'll spread the word cuz I want as many people to watch this as possible. It's very powerful. Thank you for making it.

[00:31:34] Murray Sumner: Thank you Angela. Thank you for interviewing us.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:31:37] Angela Kennecke: Thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode of Grieving Out Loud. Don't forget to explore other episodes and make sure to join us next week for an impactful conversation, we'll be sitting down with one of the millions of grandparents who've taken on the role of raising their grandchildren due to the fentanyl epidemic. As we wrap up today, we're leaving you with a final glimpse from the documentary survivors. Until we meet again. Wishing you faith, hope, and courage.

[00:32:06] Film "Survivor": One of the things that I see a lot of the time is kids that started using medication that wasn't prescribed for them out of their parents or a friend's parent's medicine cabinet and they're going in and they're looking at the prescription bottle and they're saying may cause drowsiness, do not operate heavy machinery and they go, Oh, that's it right there. That's what you're looking for. And that's where a kid starts. 

When I started using drugs, it was just whatever was available at the party I was at. And it really started out for me with ecstasy because that was a party drug. You would go to a party, you would take some ecstasy, you would feel amazing and have energy and you would be loving everyone there.

It has nothing to do with how smart you are. It has nothing to do with how athletic you are, how popular you are, how wealthy or poor you are. It has to do, uh, with the want to fit in that group mentality. We like company as human beings. We like to be accepted, and we quest for that throughout our lives as acceptance.

So, especially when you're young, you don't really know anything about the world, and you're just kind of growing up, and you have all these hormones surging through your head and your body, you don't really, and you don't know anything, you have no experience. You're gonna do whatever makes you accepted.

And that's just human nature

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[00:33:22] Angela Kennecke: This podcast is produced by Casey Wonnenberg King and Anna Fey.