[00:00:00] Chris Herren: (Basketball sound introduction) 

 since I was a little boy, I wanted to be a Celtic. I pretended to be them in my driveway.

fell asleep to Celtics. That was my world.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:00:07] Angela Kennecke: Just like countless of young boys, Chris Herren had an ambitious dream of becoming a professional basketball player. Chris was one of the lucky few whose dream became a reality. He first played for the Denver Nuggets and then achieved his ultimate goal of joining his hometown team, the Boston Celtics.

[00:00:34] Chris Herren: Then all of a sudden became a very, very successful athlete at a young age. and comes with is all glory, you know, it's, the long weekends, it's away from home. It's stress, it's pressure.

[00:00:47] Angela Kennecke: While Chris appeared to have it all on the court, off the court, he was hiding a secret battle with substance use disorder that was wreaking havoc on his mind and body. 

In this episode of Grieving Out Loud, Chris opens up about the challenges he faced, the obstacles he overcame, and how addiction affected his life in some unimaginable ways.

That's not all. He has a powerful message to share with others who may be going through similar struggles.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:01:18] Angela Kennecke: Chris, welcome to Grieving Out Loud. I'm so happy that you could join me.

[00:01:22] Chris Herren: you so great be here.

[00:01:24] Angela Kennecke: I've been doing a little research into your story. I know you had a great basketball career, but you know, to tell you the truth, you're not the only athlete I've spoken with who has struggled with substance use disorder. How common do you think it is among athletes?

[00:01:39] Chris Herren: Unfortunately it's everywhere in every space lot of think the stress. Think the structure can have a when walk away from the You know, I, I see plenty of athletes that come to Herren Wellness. once their, sport has finished and the structure's gone, they have a tough time adjusting.

So it's common, unfortunately where we're at in substance use that people don't reach out and ask help. 

[00:02:08] Angela Kennecke: Right. It's still shameful. It's still embarrassing and you're kind of put on a pedestal as an athlete, and I would think that would also mean that you played for the NBA, and I would think that would also mean that you had access to so many things as well. Like almost everything was at your disposal.

[00:02:23] Chris Herren: Yeah, I, know, I think a athlete and just a really good athlete age, that did to me was extend my, of, of addiction. people say, well, you were probably enabled, and, you know I was, was extended. People gave me opportunity because I was at something. all that did was prolong, suffering.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:02:46] Angela Kennecke: Not only did Chris have access to illicit drugs as a professional athlete, he also has a history of substance use disorder in his family. Growing up, Chris washed his father's ongoing battle with alcohol addiction, a struggle that persists to this very day.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:03:07] Chris Herren: It's heart-wrenching, heartbreaking, you when someone who does so much in this in and, you know, my dad is from drinking himself to death. So I was introduced to alcohol at a age. Again when it comes to substance use, I so effort in the worst we the day. wanna tell our children how bad it is end and give examples of understanding everyone's beginning. day I was, grade, 13 years beer that 

[00:03:41] Angela Kennecke: And it broke your heart because you saw your father drinking and you knew, you knew that wasn't the path to go. Right?

[00:03:48] Chris Herren: it my mom. I saw the pain, the the struggling, sadness that she was going through. Right. 

[00:03:54] Angela Kennecke: Those, who surround the person suffering from substance use disorder, , our lives are just as destroyed. I think, you know, as a mom watching my daughter go down this path and not being able to do anything about it, no matter what I tried, no matter what I did, and I know the people surrounding you all, and your own family of origin, your mother struggling with your father's substance use disorder, yet that. enough for for you to watch your mother. I always thought in my own family's case that that would be enough, because my first husband suffered from substance use disorder and I thought, well, if my kids saw that their dad, and while the pain and suffering that created, they would definitely stay away from it. But unfortunately, you my daughter didn't and neither did you. Can you explain that? Do you think.

[00:04:37] Chris Herren: You know, there's a lot of that came right? I think there a lot of unresolved trauma I carried with me for a time. And it's a tragic story that, know, from the age of 13, I knew there was my family that right. I identified that at 12, years old as alcohol. you rather mother, I became my father in a sense a young age,

[00:05:07] Angela Kennecke: That's really interesting. Looking back on that now, do you know why you maybe picked one route over the other?

[00:05:13] Chris Herren: I think the. the. Tumultuous relationship home. think, you know, you live in an alcoholic home, , no consistency. You know, there's no steady never knew what to expect. I never knew how dinner gonna I didn't know how my mom dad along for the next couple of weeks. , you know, on eggshells

I'll never forget it. I was 11 years old and I promised mom that I never, ever drink. And of everything we've been through, and I remember at 13 years old first time all about please don't let my mom smell my father's Miller Light's on my breath. You know, because I, I knew what that would do to her. So, it was. a moment in my life that I knew that was going down road that could be extremely dangerous for me.

 (MUSIC UP) 

[00:06:05] Angela Kennecke: Despite going down that dangerous road, Chris talent on the court truly began to shine during his high school days. He set a record at Derby High School for the most career points in school history. Amassing more than 2000 points. He was also selected to be part of the 1994 McDonald's All American team, an award reserve for the nation's top high school players, and he was named the Boston Globe and Gatorade Player of the Year. But amid all the triumphs and honors Chris grappled with the weight of expectations and pressures, hoping to find relief. He tried illicit drugs.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:06:48] Chris Herren: , my. Substance started, with marijuana most. and at at 18 years the world of cocaine in college. And you know, people all the time cocaine had a perverse healing effect to me because it allowed me to be very transparent, honest, emotional, and. I love love being up at night and pouring my heart out to somebody. mean, it you, child, I have the skills. I that's of how I fell in love young age, at And, I transitioned more substances the way.

[00:07:32] Angela Kennecke: Do you think it was mostly your genetic predisposition to this or your environment or a combination of all these things,

[00:07:40] Chris Herren: it was a combination.

And the trauma, think that was with me it unresolved not healing. But then all of a sudden became a very, very successful athlete at a young age. and comes with is all glory, you know, it's, the long weekends, it's away from home. It's stress, it's pressure. I that it played part of, use.

[00:08:06] Angela Kennecke: and the, your use of cocaine often led to negative consequences as well, right?

[00:08:11] Chris Herren: course. Mean, all negative consequences,

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:08:13] Angela Kennecke: As one of the top high school players in the nation, Chris received offers from some of the most prestigious college basketball programs, such as Duke University and the University of Kentucky. He turned those down to play closer to home at Boston College. Unfortunately, though, even before his first game at Boston College, Chris faced setbacks.

He failed a drug test due to marijuana and cocaine use. Not long after that, a wrist injury further compounded his troubles and he failed two more drug tests.

 (MUSIC UP) 

[00:08:48] Chris Herren: I was 18 years old when I was asked to leave college of three failed drug tests And a lot of people when they hear my story they of fast forward to the world of heroin and Boston Celtics But at 18 years old that was probably one of the crushing feelings I've ever had that know an an athletic director College and told me that I wasn't welcome there anymore and I walked out of knowing that I just put substances in front of everything

[00:09:19] Angela Kennecke: were you offered help at that point when you were a young college kid and you failed these drug tests Did anybody offer you treatment

[00:09:26] Chris Herren: No not the narrative think sometimes narrative is still the same with some families with some people It's the help I was offered punishment it was It we're gonna suspend you We'll suspend you three games going to suspend you whole season So they punitive position 

 (MUSIC UP) 

[00:09:48] Angela Kennecke: But Chris says things were different when he transferred to Fresno State on the hardwood, he was like a force of nature dropping more than 30 points per game and leaving opponents in awe. Yet off the court, substance use disorder still had its grip on him.

 During Chris' junior year, he failed another drug test. Instead of trying to ignore the problem, he bravely held a press conference that aired across the nation. His voice choked with emotion. Chris bravely admitted his struggles and announced he'd be taking some time off from the game to go to rehab.

[00:10:26] Press Conference Audio: Oh, 

[00:10:31] Angela Kennecke: During the press conference, Herren's college coach sat by his side, offered support, and even got emotional

[00:10:57] Chris Herren: They wanted help wanted to bring therapists and doctors with me it's interesting how two colleges universities had different approaches 

[00:11:08] Angela Kennecke: Yeah One sounds like a more old-fashioned way of doing things and one sounds a little bit more progressive but did it make a difference So when you went to California and you had some more support did that make a difference in your use at all

[00:11:19] Chris Herren: think they both made a difference like to say that

like to that both played factor when I was years old at Fresno I the the seed of recovery was planted You know introduced AA meetings meetings therapy i p outpatient programs inpatient you know when I was years old but I that punitive aspect of Boston College also like to say played a part I became and I got to recovery

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:11:49] Angela Kennecke: after college. Chris's basketball dreams kicked into high gear when he got drafted by the Denver Nuggets in the second round. You'd think this would be his slam dunk moment, right? But instead of feeling excited, Chris admits more than anything he felt scared.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:12:14] Chris Herren:  my confidence as far as me as a person like I I didn't know if I was built for it was so unresolved in my life know I wasn't really committed I wasn't all in with anything know that's how it I all in every facet of my life

[00:12:32] Angela Kennecke: did your issues with addiction continue to get worse

[00:12:35] Chris Herren: Yeah It the changed you know when for Nuggets I was introduced to Oxycontin they weren't really of them on the streets I getting 'em from an that was receiving his from someone had terminal cancer So they weren't very popular that they knew anything about Oxycontin until they really in 2002 2003 when started to become on pretty heavily the media I had taken Vicodin Percocet you had knee wrist surgeries shoulder surgery I was just of the unlucky ones liked the feeling and my a Vicodin gets sick her stomach She wants nothing to do with it comforting a sick way

[00:13:23] Angela Kennecke: Your body and brain respond differently which is so true of anyone who has this disease Right 

And so the switch though I'm thinking about the switch from an upper of cocaine To a downer more of an opioid that you know is an opposite effect you like both feelings or what did you prefer The opioids 

[00:13:43] Chris Herren: the opioids I that down feeling pretty I mean you gotta remember I was playing professional basketball I was taking a thousand milligrams Oxycontin a day 

[00:13:55] Angela Kennecke: Oh wow

[00:13:56] Chris Herren: I think most I ended up getting to was probably around 1600 milligrams day being professional basketball player So know that's routine that the of I wasn't I who just head down and and nodding out was up and go

[00:14:17] Angela Kennecke: That's sort of amazing to me also that you could continue to excel at your career at the same time 

[00:14:23] Chris Herren: call think that um I started going downhill right the of my career rookie year Nuggets of sudden in my world And you know you look career I with the Denver Nuggets and I up professional basketball in iran.

[00:14:45] Angela Kennecke: But But between that time we don't wanna skip over all of that right Because between that time you went to the Boston Celtics was really your dream right

[00:14:54] Chris Herren: was mean since I was a little boy I wanted to be a Celtic pretended to be them in my driveway fell asleep to Celtics that was my world

[00:15:03] Angela Kennecke: And at this time you're married You've married this whole time you've got little kids they know what's going on you hiding it What's happening

[00:15:11] Chris Herren: hiding Yes It know I really you know thing I try families all the time my brain never stopped hiding You know everything in in my life had to do with hiding I hard and why sometimes families find out much you know my brain operating all day long on to keep going and not let anyone down that loved me

[00:15:40] Angela Kennecke: Yeah Something that I really with is my daughter We knew something was wrong with her and I knew she had started with marijuana and Xanax and we were planning intervention We were three days away from holding an intervention when she was killed by Fentanyl but she was using heroin It was heroin laced with fentanyl And I never could have imagined and I'm sure gonna talk about you graduating to heroin from Oxycontin I bet you never could have imagined yourself using heroin I never could have imagined my daughter using heroin so I was the last to know you talk about hiding You know she never anything to me except for Xanax 

I knew like I said I knew about marijuana but that's hard That's really hard for the people around someone who has substance use disorder

[00:16:25] Chris Herren: course And and that's why I don't like word rock bottom think rock bottom prevents people that intervention know there's narrative that They have everything rebuild And it's the furthest thing from truth so I'm big fan of rock bottom And the problem I it from my family for so long that they had no idea you I was

[00:16:52] Angela Kennecke: And I also think today with fentanyl in the drug supply rock bottom is death So we can't wait for people to die and they die so quickly I mean it can be just a first first use now 

[00:17:02] Chris Herren: bottom is first use Diane and know unfortunately I know up every day for around years single morning mission to take a chance at dying was the find someone in a parking lot and Knowing I just said goodbye to Christopher said goodbye to Samantha I'm going Dunkin Donuts gonna get you donut but Daddy's gonna take a chance at die in first it that's why the intervention especially is so critical early

[00:17:36] Angela Kennecke: right sooner you can intervene the better

that's always one of my regrets I feel like we waited too long to hold that intervention and who knows whether it would've been successful or not Obviously that's a whole other thing but um wanna wait You don't wanna wait 

So at some point did did were unable to get Oxycontin Is that why you went on to use heroin

[00:17:56] Chris Herren: You know that's the with Oxycontin never received it from a doctor I never got a prescription management I always it on the street and out And the only fix The only way to get outta that sickness was to I always I would never do just do a little heroin And and I'll never forget it a a guy looked at me and said I can take of this It over quick and then go right back to your pills again and never went back to pills in world

[00:18:28] Angela Kennecke: why not Why do you think you stayed with heroin

[00:18:31] Chris Herren: Good question think for it was more accessible was easier for me to get my hands on part my life a little easier and unfortunately when that sick you you rationalize you know when I was doing Oxycontin I I would I can't believe do heroin then it like Oxycontin is worse than and just play that narrative sad 

[00:18:56] Angela Kennecke: right And I think one of the things that disturbed me most when was reading your story is your experience with hmm overdose and the kind of public shaming and fallout that after that because you were a well-known basketball player Can you tell me that story

[00:19:12] Chris Herren: you I overdosed in 2004 again heroin fentanyl the overdose it really wasn't of society the narrative 

and I just remember I was in a Dunkin Donuts parking lot and I woke up police officers over me my world changed everybody who loved me you know I just changed their whole world in a flash lives were different 

I spent a in a jail out and the next I up and the headline in the Boston newspapers were what a Shame  you in 2004 they could get away with that wanted to and humiliate me than help me they did a good job You know it's it's awful  that was my first time experiencing overdose

[00:20:00] Angela Kennecke: yeah it breaks my heart that you had to experience all that shame and stigma and that sort of public outing and humiliation someone who was in the eye that goes along with that you're not the only person obviously to have experienced that especially during those timeframes the headline is awful Awful you was said that the first time that you overdosed So all of this made it worse

[00:20:28] Chris Herren: it did

 Heroin doesn't You know opiates They don't wanna go And no matter how far I went you know what I down I just finding myself back And there was a time in my life that I had plenty of resources could buy whatever I wanted But I never I bought every day what I needed a sense right I didn't meet the drug dealer and I'm gonna in bulk buy for today I really believe psyche I always thought be day I always thought that this was gonna be it you know And how I wanted it I wanted saying I'm gonna wake up tomorrow and I'll be through this

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:21:16] Angela Kennecke: Unfortunately, Chris wrestled with substance use disorder for 14 years. He had not one, not two, but four overdose close calls. He went from, he went from star N B a basketball player to spending some nights out on the streets, dribbling through tough times.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:21:40] Angela Kennecke: It's amazing to me that you're here today to talk about this but there wasn't fentanyl in the drug supply When this to you each time were you found and saved or how did you live those overdoses

[00:21:52] Chris Herren: I was in a vehicle and I a car accident so saved me a car caused on scene and EMTs and they identified pretty quickly I was was overdosing was fortunate a sense you know know I was with people and one called

[00:22:13] Angela Kennecke: oh. 

[00:22:13] Chris Herren: one had Narcan

[00:22:14] Angela Kennecke: Amazing They had Narcan you know since this was quite few years ago 

So what was it that made you finally get into recovery and stay in What was What changed Was it something inside of you

[00:22:28] Chris Herren: I'm the school I wanted to think mattered my life It had to me that 1st 2008 I also started working really hard Like I started working really really hard and you know showed up I was committed Recovery's It's it's a big and I work really hard for it

[00:22:52] Angela Kennecke: What worked for you I think different things worked for different people Right In recovery So what was it you 

[00:22:58] Chris Herren: an AA guy you That there when I started I think there's multiple to You know at my center introduced multiple pathways to recovery my way was was through through through book everybody's way

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:23:18] Angela Kennecke: For Chris, there was another game changing fear that hit him hard. The possibility of losing his family if he didn't step up and make a comeback through recovery.

[00:23:33] Chris Herren: (MUSIC UP!) 

toughest my addiction was mother down it was my eyes the most beautiful part of my recovery see it in my children's eyes see sobriety and you know you have something special when see that

[00:23:49] Angela Kennecke: Wife stood by you this whole time I mean which is amazing in itself And you didn't lose your family So many people do 

[00:23:56] Chris Herren: married for years coming up years sober know as I said you know you have something when you see your children and the people who love You eyes and people my center the time like there's gonna that day That whoever you or whoever you love you're gonna see sobriety smiles when you give that to someone because of the work you're in recovery it's an amazing amazing experience And my children 24 21 and 14 and they who they are today because of recovery And I will tell you that

[00:24:31] Angela Kennecke: And none of children suffer from substance use disorder I I would worry about that You being a generational thing

[00:24:37] Chris Herren: So two oldest never drank or used substance you know I think childhood obviously puts some some real and fear them But I also believe they became attracted to recovery you people say much how much about your addiction do you talk to children and say I about recovery than I do addiction they've attracted to that

 (commercial break - visit www.morethanjustanumber.org) 

 (MUSIC UP) 

[00:25:06] Angela Kennecke: Chris not only tells his kids about recovery, but for the past 12 years, he's been talking to thousands of students, adults, and even professional athletes across the nation telling his story, hoping to prevent others from going down the same dangerous path of substance abuse.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:25:26] Chris Herren: probably seven years I felt that I was into walk into a school and tell my story and jarring right And kids sit there with their mouths open and I would receive messages from the saying congrats I'll pray you I'm so happy for your family But they never told their story and I said as a person who has this platform want to kids to tell me their story like to talk about they're going through

that's when I pivoted started talking about the first day day think beginning matters and know when it comes to parents today a lot of parents they their are drunk or doing drugs where'd you get it Who gave it you you with you do do Not why'd you do it 

[00:26:23] Angela Kennecke: Right 

[00:26:23] Chris Herren: know a lot of parents don't ask why And the beginning

[00:26:28] Angela Kennecke: I also think kids don't always know why they can't always articulate You know reason why and maybe they were just thought would I mean that seems like dumb reason right Oh I'm just with a bunch of gonna be fun But I don't know The kids are always introspective enough to look into the what really motivated me to do this What was I for

[00:26:50] Chris Herren: but I don't think introspective enough them 

[00:26:53] Angela Kennecke: Oh 

[00:26:55] Chris Herren: that opportunity You I don't think we're teaching I Every school in America like wellness should a core class today I mean and wellness be a class that kids go to from kindergarten year or high school day should part of their curriculum isn't and it's and to show you how little introspective are you know at some schools and there'll be 2000 students and four guidance counselors we're putting on someone's caseload

[00:27:27] Angela Kennecke: Right And they can't handle everything that comes at them They spend more time counselors spend more time dealing with just the issues and the problems that crop up than actually teaching some these skills life skills Right

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:27:40] Angela Kennecke: That's why at Emily's Hope we're developing a comprehensive K through 12 curriculum. Our aim to provide a solid foundation for making healthy choices during those crucial formative years. We want to equip young learners with the tools they need to resist the temptations of substance use as they grow and mature.

Curious to learn more about this program, just head over to our education website, emily's hope edu.org.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:28:14] Angela Kennecke: We're trying to teach kids from a very holistic. Whole child and also scientific way about how their bodies and brains work and how substances work and how substances affect the brain And I they're getting that right now And it's so important that we do So that's of mission So I love hearing you talk about this because trying to give kids also some coping skills for when they do get into situations how handle that Because they they will be in situations where they're offered drugs or they're around them or alcohol

[00:28:42] Chris Herren: I think if we give 'em yeah use 'em I just think we've a job of handing over those tools kids that I work with they'll say like they 12 school just they introduced to drugs and alcohol sophomore year of high school You know that's that's

[00:29:04] Angela Kennecke: Right And kids vaping now sometimes in third fourth grade you know and that be where it starts so we we have to get kids younger believe

 (MUSIC UP) 

[00:29:12] Angela Kennecke: In addition to his powerful in-person talks and his wellness program, Chris has also poured his heart into a book and brought his experiences to life in a powerful film titled, The First Day. You Can find information about all of this under our show notes in this podcast.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:29:36] Angela Kennecke: if could just kind wave a magic wand and change something about society or how we View disease of the brain and how we treat it what would be What would you what changes would you like to see

[00:29:49] Chris Herren: to me would all be an education I really would I would double down on education I throw the resources our children and let them start learning this at a very young age I'll and honestly middle school kids are probably the most receptive and will say middle kids too young the most receptive the ones who are raw and are through that process of wanting to kind of again be introspective see kind of where who becoming you know that's why whole wellness piece the holistic it would all go into the school system

[00:30:29] Angela Kennecke: Well I'm right there with you that's main mission We do a lot things at Emily's but that is our main mission because think prevention is key and we have to figure out ways do a better job with that Because as you know you've been down this road once Once is suffering substance use disorder recovery a it's hard path And you could have relapses You had relapses right And now today it's deadly It's deadly So you know it's a scary time

[00:30:57] Chris Herren: would change too that because you just touched it I there's much into the time it's a little in a oh I'm 15 years I'm years I'm I think the time it can almost have the reverse effect of someone who does relapse because they're ashamed of coming they don't at zero they don't wanna start at day one 

So we're sober and we're doing together today for me

[00:31:27] Angela Kennecke: Oh the key I to cope with just about anything in life is to not think too far in the past and too in future but to live the moment and think about what you is in your control that moment Right The choices you make in that moment

[00:31:41] Chris Herren: beauty of living one day time Like I put time in between rear view mirror of children there's some space from August of 2008 one day at a time I'm of getting further away from that time of their life and over the last 14 years I've created a different has us everything needed a family

[00:32:04] Angela Kennecke: Well it also it's amazing to me it from really being at top financially Publicly all of these things took deep fall and you've been able rebuild your life and do much I mean that is very commendable I I really have to say it's amazing the things you've doing putting your story out there and the ways that you have helping other people get into and stay in recovery I that's amazing

[00:32:29] Chris Herren: I mean right when I started Herren Project years know that have helped over 3000 people into treatment know we've supported 10,000 families the only reason is someone supported me Like when at moment someone was there for me if wasn't for don't know where I'd be today And I just wanted to be that person to extend to say I want to help you and over the last 12 years thousands and thousands of people have been given the opportunity walk recovery I everyone deserves it

[00:33:08] Angela Kennecke: everyone deserves it 

And our system is set to make it really difficult for people is Financially and the amount of time it takes for the brain to recover We don't give enough time but We some of these things think collectively we can change for all of us who are working in this area to make 

[00:33:25] Chris Herren: know the insurance company and years I think I mean five 28 days 90 days outpatient is no number right I mean it takes detox Some people feel within 72 hours Everyone's different at Herron Wellness the people who longer stay sober mean that's just the way it is the people who stay 70 days or more here as 70 days or less it's vastly different celebrate in years of recovery.

[00:33:59] Angela Kennecke: Well I mean science tells us now it the brain needs to recover and takes a long time for that to happen for those pathways to rebuild themselves So we know that scientifically we know it but yet takes a long time for Um, society to change. But you again for all you're doing. Thank you for being part this podcast. I really appreciate it. much.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:34:20] Angela Kennecke: And thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode. If you found it informative and helpful, please leave us a positive review and share the podcast with family and friends. It helps further our mission to raise awareness about substance use disorder, hopefully decreasing stigma, educating the public and getting more people into treatment.

We believe that by sharing stories of our suffering, we can lessen the suffering of others. Thanks again, and until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Wonnenberg-King and Anna Fey.

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