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[00:00:00] Angela Kennecke: Picture this, a woman with an amazing apartment, her fashion sense on point, and a mother who's always looking out for her kids. But here's the thing behind all that, there's a secret. A secret that not even Katie Kerr's closest loved ones had a clue about. 

None of them could have possibly seen it coming.

[00:00:22] Deborah Zwicker: Clothing was always nice. Her makeup was always on. She'd go to work. Her kids were well taken care of, so I had no idea,

[00:00:29] Angela Kennecke: Katie, an animal lover, a compassionate medical professional, and the daughter of a law enforcement officer dedicated to fighting drug crimes was about to embark on a dangerous journey down the dark alleys of illicit drug use.

[00:00:43] Deborah Zwicker: She from a very early age, understood that her dad was, going to get the bad guys as she would say, taking, you know, drugs off the street.

[00:00:52] Angela Kennecke: On this episode of Grieving Out Loud, we have the privilege of sitting down with Katie's mom, Deborah Zwicker.

Together, we delve into her perspective on where she believes her daughter went wrong, and how she relentlessly is seeking justice and the steps she's taking to prevent future tragedies.

[00:01:27] Deborah Zwicker: It's murder. It's murder. You're killing people.

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[00:01:30] Angela Kennecke: Deborah , welcome to Grieving Out Loud, and thank you so much for joining me. I am so anxious to talk about Kate and your family's story, and I am so sorry for your loss. 

[00:01:41] Deborah Zwicker: Thank you. Thank you for having me. 

[00:01:43] Angela Kennecke: Tell me a little bit about your family. You live in Canada and the problem of fentanyl, is it as bad in Canada as it is in the United States?

[00:01:52] Deborah Zwicker: We're seeing that it's starting to be a huge increase, especially on the west coast of Canada, but it's now moving into the east coast of Canada where I live. And it's starting to be pretty much laced in almost everything on the streets. 

[00:02:05] Angela Kennecke: I guess that's really no surprise. So you raised your family in Canada, had three kids. Tell me about, your kids and your family.

[00:02:11] Deborah Zwicker: Okay. I have an older son who's 30. Brandon is my oldest son. Then we had Catherine. She preferred to call herself Kate or Katie, but Catherine. And then I have a younger son who's 27. And his name's Riley. So growing up I was a stay-at-home mom. I raised the children. My then husband at the time was an active member of the police force in rc m p in Canada. Worked, you know, shift work quite a bit and I raised the children and Catherine was just out of the both boys. She was a spitfire, like from the get go she was 16 months old, she was climbing out of her crib, coming out the door, like running down the hall. Like she was really, really rambunctious and she was, full of spice and, tomboy, a mixture of, good end, I guess a little bit of rebellion in her 

and as they grew up did everything like other children did. It was a really, you know, middle class type of lifestyle that we had. , my boys played hockey, she did cheerleading, she went to girl guides. She loved animals. She was constantly bringing home stray animals, or especially stray cats. She absolutely, absolutely loved being outdoors in nature and being around water. She was just a typical all around beautiful little girl.

[00:03:22] Angela Kennecke: Sounds like, typical middle class family with a mom that stays home because, you know, you hear a lot of opinions out there about people who end up. Using substances or especially illegal substances. You hear a lot of opinions about how they were raised or. What kind of attention they got or what happened to them. Do you know what I'm saying? 

[00:03:42] Deborah Zwicker: I absolutely do know what you're saying. I went back to work when Catherine was about five or six years old, but the first pivotal years of her life, I was a stay-at-home mom. And they were with me. And as she grew older, her dad would come home and. Her dad worked on the drug section. His job was actually after about seven years, he went into undercover and working drug section work. So she from a very early age, understood that her dad was, going to get the bad guys as she would say, taking, you know, drugs off the street. You know, when she was around, eight or nine years old, she had an awareness of that,   her dad was her hero and she understood that he was, making sure that anybody that was selling drugs or doing drugs, that he was trying to, make sure that that didn't happen.

And so, she always knew from a young age it was something that you should stay away from. That was dangerous. 

But as she got older she wasn't experimenting, but she was just like a normal teen. She'd go out with her friends and then some of her friends would be a little bit like not the suspect side, but just be kind of a little bit, you know, experimenting. And I would say to her, you know, you have to make sure that you don't do any drugs or anything like that. And she'd be like, no, mom, I'm not. As you know, she became a little bit older. I did, find out that she had experimented a little bit in, weed and trying some alcohol, but nothing to the point where, there was an issue with it.

And it wasn't until around 2018 when she had surgery for her tonsils and she ended up getting her prescription for Percocet and unbeknownst to me after her surgery, she was supposed to come off them after two weeks, but she continued to get them illegally without, safe supply.

[00:05:15] Angela Kennecke: There's so much to unpack there. So first of all, I think that we all hope as parents, if we start and, you know, we have an education curriculum that's based on educating children, young about drugs, hoping, hoping that that will make a big difference and keep them away from substances that can be harmful and very addictive to them. Right? 

And in Emily's case, we had a family member who suffered from addiction and she knew that at a very young age. And we had lots of talks about drugs and in fact, My daughter was the poster child for Dare She read her essay in Dare. And so I think we think as parents, like we can protect them from this by all that education, by all that information, 

right?

[00:05:54] Deborah Zwicker: Yes, absolutely. I look back now and I, say to myself, I. I felt like I was educating her and her father was educating her and by showing her and by talking about it and making sure like who she was around, knowing where she was going by talking about it. Because she also, understood about addiction and we were a very open family.

We talked about, it was no secret. She sees that her dad goes sometimes seven, eight months working undercover to try to get these, heavy drugs off the street.

So she's not gonna do that because she knows the effects that it has, from some of the stories that she would hear, like, you know, from her dad, so on and so forth. So, There was that part of me that I thought, you know what, she's not gonna do it. No, not Kate. Kate wouldn't do that. 

[00:06:34] Angela Kennecke: and you have a whole family full of law enforcement, right? I mean, it really runs 

[00:06:38] Deborah Zwicker: in your family. Yes, it does. 

Yes. My now ex-husband he's still currently actively, he's 35 year veteran, still in the RCMP in Canada. And my current husband now for like 20 years is a retired police officer. And we also, I have a stepson who's been 17 years in law enforcement, 

so yeah, we're very very first responders as well, not even just police officers, So it's, it's something again where I've was just shocked. it wasn't something that I would've saw coming because. We always talked about policing or first respond or the addiction problem or just different things that were happening on the street. It was actually almost an everyday conversation at her dinner table.

[00:07:16] Angela Kennecke: And Kate herself went into the helping field, right? She was in healthcare. 

[00:07:20] Deborah Zwicker: Yes. After she graduated high school, she went right into becoming an L P N, p S W L P N. So she went right into the healthcare system, got a full-time job, great job, loved it. She was great with people, people loved her. She had the ability to impact people with her kindness. She was very loving and caring, and she actually, Realized like, this is for me, this is where I'm meant to be.

 It was something that she got a lot of satisfaction out of helping people. So yeah, she was in the healthcare industry. 

[00:07:48] Angela Kennecke: And did she get into healthcare before her surgery in 2018 then? 

[00:07:51] Deborah Zwicker: Yes, she did. 

[00:07:53] Angela Kennecke: She did. So she probably knew about some of the risks from these opioids, right?

[00:07:58] Deborah Zwicker: Absolutely. She knew the risk because before she was in active addiction. There was a few of people that she knew of that had it succumbed to addiction, from opiates, so she knew she was well aware of it and she knew what it was like in the healthcare system as well. So, yes.

[00:08:12] Angela Kennecke: So she's on Percocet for two weeks. Do you think two weeks is too long to be put on Percocet? I mean, I'm wondering like if that's when the addiction started after the surgery that she had in 2018. If someone does need painkillers, do you think that she should have been on at a shorter amount of time or what are your thoughts regarding that?

[00:08:29] Deborah Zwicker: My thoughts on it is, what happens is I feel like the doctor gave a prescription for two, my, from my recollection, it was two weeks cuz I filled the prescription and I'm pretty sure it was for two weeks. And then the doctor would be like, no more. But I feel like what happens is you actually become, I don't say addicted, but physically dependent, the symptoms of physical dependency before two weeks.

So I feel like the doctor should have titrated her off of it slowly, or at least helped her instead of just being like, no. The drugs are done because from understanding, after when I found out she was in active addiction is she couldn't actually cut the addiction. That's why she went to the streets looking for Percocets.

[00:09:07] Angela Kennecke: You didn't know though, at the time that she was doing 

[00:09:09] Deborah Zwicker: that? 

No. I had no clue. No. She was very closeted, very well put together. Functioning very well. We had no idea until 2021. She was closeted user. 

[00:09:19] Angela Kennecke: So three years.

[00:09:20] Deborah Zwicker: I had no idea she was well put together. Didn't even look, kept her job. Everything. 

You wouldn't have known. 

[00:09:27] Angela Kennecke: And she also had three children. 

[00:09:28] Deborah Zwicker: Absolutely, yes she did. She had three children 

[00:09:31] Angela Kennecke: how old were they in 2018 then? When she started? 

[00:09:33] Deborah Zwicker: , her son would've been five, and her youngest would've been one at 2018.

[00:09:37] Angela Kennecke: so she's juggling a job. Small children and an addiction to opioids. Yes. And she was getting pills, you think, 

[00:09:46] Deborah Zwicker: off the street at that time? Yes, 

exactly. Percocet. 

[00:09:49] Angela Kennecke: And you never knew. And I'm not totally surprised about the not knowing Deborah because. I knew that my daughter was using marijuana in Xanax, and I knew at one point she told me she tried to get off Xanax. Now I think it was probably heroin, but I never knew about the heroin. Like she hid it, she hid it well. 

I never even suspected that she would be doing such a strong street drug. You know, I never even entered my mind. And so I feel kind of dumb after the fact, and I have other people have said, how could you not know?

 And I did actually have a detective tell me sometimes parents are actually the last to know. 

[00:10:23] Deborah Zwicker: Yes. And I absolutely agree with you because people have said that to me. How could you have not known? I saw her and I mean, she looked fine. Like she, at the time I was uneducated maybe in a little bit, thinking like what does a typical addiction look like? I was thinking like, you know, you see someone that looks like kind of, well disheveled and not put together, and it might be unhoused, you know, 

she wasn't that way. She had her apartment. Her apartment was beautiful. Her clothing was always nice. Her makeup was always on. She'd go to work. Her kids were well taken care of, so I had no idea, and I'd go visit her and I didn't have any idea she was using. 

[00:10:55] Angela Kennecke: Wow. And she doesn't live in the same town as you.

[00:10:58] Deborah Zwicker: No. She would be four hours away from me. So when I would travel to visit, I would be like, I'm coming to visit you. She'd be like, okay, mom. I mean, her house was always clean, everything was great. We'd go out to dinner, the kids would come out and I mean, it wasn't, I. Because again, I can spot things out from being in a policing family, like things that are odd.

She never left to go and be somewhere and then come back didn't show signs of using, she just really didn't, she actually had it really under control. She was a really good functioning addict. 

[00:11:25] Angela Kennecke: And don't you think a big part of all the secrecy has to do with shame? Especially if she heard all of this talk growing up and she heard the law enforcement perspective of it.

I'm sure she didn't want her family. To think ill of her or to know that she had this horrible secret. It must have been so hard for her to bear. 

[00:11:42] Deborah Zwicker: Yeah, no, I look now after it, it came out and we had a quite a very authentic conversation. She had a lot of shame and that's why she kept it. She was very embarrassed and. She never thought that it would happen to her, like not me. Right? And then it does happen because just one day you wake up and boom, you're an addict. That's how it happens. And she was shameful about it, and that's why she kept it such a secret, because she felt like she had an image to upkeep. Right? Being from a law enforcement family, 

[00:12:11] Angela Kennecke: When did you find out that she was struggling? 

[00:12:14] Deborah Zwicker: What happened was in December of 2020, which pandemic was on probably like six months, and everything was on lockdown. She started using cocaine in December of 2020. 

[00:12:26] Angela Kennecke: Do you think she switched from opioids to cocaine because she thought it would be better or safer, or do you know?

[00:12:32] Deborah Zwicker: I really don't know. We never really got to that point. She just said somebody introduced it to her in December of 2020. She tried it and she got hooked. 

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:12:41] Angela Kennecke: Cocaine has a reputation for being extremely addictive. Experts say experimenting with it just once can lead to a whole lot of trouble down the road. In fact, according to the Center for Substance Abuse Research, crack cocaine is even more potent. They say that a person can become addicted after their very first hit.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:13:05] Deborah Zwicker: So within four months of her using cocaine, she lost her job. She lost her children. . So I got a call from c p s that she had forgotten to pick up her children. So that's when I found out that not only was she an active user, and she was an IV user. She had lost her children and she had lost her job. She had already lost her job within four months of starting using cocaine. So she was in full-blown active addiction where it was no longer functionable, it was dysfunction. 

She needed the drug in order to even get outta bed.

[00:13:35] Angela Kennecke: It just really breaks my heart. Yeah. just to think about what she went through and. Obviously at that point you find out because 

[00:13:42] Deborah Zwicker: of cps. Yes. 

[00:13:43] Angela Kennecke: And what was going through your 

[00:13:45] Deborah Zwicker: mind because you didn't know? Well, I'm shocked.

Like I'm shocked because again, I didn't even know that she would've even had like an addiction. Like I thought, okay, she probably does weed maybe or has done weed, like I know that and has a drink. But to find out like, okay, she's lost her children . They're now in foster care, you need to come and get them, or they're gonna be in foster care. We've tested her. She's also an IV user of cocaine. 

I was shocked. I, I was in disbelief. I, I couldn't even believe it. And at first I was angry because of the children as well. But as time progressed, I realized that, She didn't ask to become she, it was from the opioids. She told me, mom, I got addicted to the pain pills and I couldn't get off of them. And I tried cocaine because they weren't really working anymore. I, whatever. She was getting Percocets on the street, tried cocaine, and then like just went down that rabbit hole. Like some people can maybe function, but for her it just spiraled her life completely outta control where she lost everything. 

[00:14:43] Angela Kennecke: it doesn't surprise me that your first reaction would be anger. I think most people would be angry at that person. They're supposed to be, yeah. Taking care of three young children and I think that first reaction is normal and natural.

You know, until you really got to understand more, especially cuz it's came kind of out of the blue for you. It wasn't like there was a gradual buildup of like, oh, she has a problem. in Emily's case, I did think she had a problem. I just didn't realize the severity of the drug issue. Right. Yeah. And we were working on intervention but we didn't get to her on time. She died from Fentanyl before we could do that intervention. 

But did Kate go to treatment then? 

[00:15:16] Deborah Zwicker: Yeah, so what happened was I quickly learn to stop being angry and I got myself with somebody that was with mental health and addictions to educate me on how to navigate. A life with somebody with substance abuse issues.

So that really helped because then that helped open the door for Kate and I to have an authentic relationship. I could hold space for her, not enable her, but also have healthy relationship, but creating boundaries, like not giving her money and trying to get her into recovery, active recovery. We finally were able to get her into active recovery September 7th, 2022, so like a year.

A little year and a half after her full blown finding out. Oh, we thought was good. And she lasted four hours in detox and she called me and said, mom, I can't stay here. And I'm like, why can't you stay there? She's like, there's only me and there's all these guys and I don't feel comfortable and they won't allow me to even have a cigarette. And I don't know how detox works cause I've never been there. So I was just begging and pleading for her to please stay, you know, it's only five to seven days. And then the plan was for her to come here. To get you detoxed. You're gonna come here and you're gonna live with us, and we're gonna get you back on your feet.

Right? And that's what is gonna happen. She was like, okay. She promised me she would stay, but she ended up leaving unbeknownst to me, and the next day I called and found out she had left. And then within three weeks, 21 days later, she didn't make it either. She ended up succumbing to fentanyl poisoning 

[00:16:43] Angela Kennecke: within three weeks of leaving that detox.

Yes. Wow. So did you see her during those three weeks or 

[00:16:49] Deborah Zwicker: No. Talking every day? I talked to her on the phone. I didn't actually physically see her just talking through FaceTime and I talked to her actually, the day that she passed, I texted her in the morning. Something didn't, I don't know, something felt off. And it was September 27th and I text her at six 18 in the morning. Why? I woke up and, and felt the urge I needed to text her. I can't tell you just a mother's intuition. I texted her and I said, hi. Are you okay? And right away she wrote back to me, which I thought was odd because she would normally never be up at that time in the morning, but she was like, yeah, mom, I'm fine. I just didn't have minutes on my phone. I'm like, okay, honey, where have you been? Because again, we know with people when they live in active addiction, they can go off the radar for two or three days and then they come back. And that's kind of how we were dealing with Catherine 

And then it wasn't until that night her dad, my ex-husband, her biological dad, who is a member of the RCMP drove in actually off of his shift at midnight and there was a patrol car waiting for him in his driveway.

And so when, sorry, when he got out of the vehicle, he knew, he was like, I already know. I know. And so he called me right away and I just collapsed, you know, so, 

[00:17:59] Angela Kennecke: yeah. Of course. And the drug that she used on the day she, she died was? 

[00:18:07] Deborah Zwicker: Cocaine and it was laced with toxic levels of fentanyl. 

[00:18:10] Angela Kennecke: And this is a warning to everyone that all drugs are being laced with fentanyl. And if people don't think that's the case, Obviously they're wrong and too many lives are at risk because of it. did you know about fentanyl?

[00:18:23] Deborah Zwicker: I'll be honest with you because My husband now has been retired for 10 years. 10 years ago you didn't hear about fentanyl only in a hospital setting, right? We didn't hear about it. And because my ex-husband, I mean, like the kids are adults, so we don't have really reasons to come together. I. So, I mean, he knew Fentanyl was being, you know, is around, but he didn't realize as prevalent as it was, I was more naive to it. So I really did not know until after Kate passed, until her toxicology came in and I was, I was shocked. 

[00:18:53] Angela Kennecke: The other thing I know about your story that's so sad is that Kate was not alone when she ingested this cocaine laced with Fentanyl. 

[00:19:01] Deborah Zwicker: No. She was with somebody, And they left. They left. And then eventually somebody found her alone with a dog. There was a dog there and they called and an the fire department and an ambulance showed up and they tried, but she was pronounced dead. 

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:19:18] Angela Kennecke: Canada, much like the United States has its own good Samaritan laws in place, the law provides crucial immunity for both the person who overdosed and those who promptly call 9 1 1 for help in cases involving minor drug possession or drug paraphernalia offenses. The whole point of this law is to prevent overdose deaths and encourage more people to step up and make a life-saving call.

You can find more information about these laws by checking out the show notes in this podcast. While you're there, we'd appreciate it if you give this podcast a positive review, share it with your friends and family. It helps further our mission of increasing awareness about the nation's drug epidemic and hopefully prevent future deaths and tragedies.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:20:09] Deborah Zwicker: , her case is still kind of under active investigation in some regard.

The person they suspect he did call, but left for quite a period of time before he called. We'll say that. 

[00:20:21] Angela Kennecke: I bet the question you'll never know that goes through your mind is, could she have been saved if he wouldn't have left? 

[00:20:28] Deborah Zwicker: Yeah. There was some nefarious findings at the crime scene with my daughter, and so major crime is still investigating it. They haven't closed her file because That's one of the questions why wait so long, , and her autopsy has not been completed. I actually talked to the coroner yesterday. They're waiting for the autopsy and I feel they're waiting for that is just to see the exact time of death and the autopsy based on when they, you know, did the time of death there because there's too much of a span between the time when she passed and when he called 9 1 1.

that's why there was a lot of suspicion around him. And anyways, so that's all I can say. But yeah, he didn't call right away, put it that way. If he would've called right away, the chances are, but it wasn't done right away. 

[00:21:09] Angela Kennecke: That's hard to live with, isn't it? 

[00:21:10] Deborah Zwicker: Yes, it's very hard because I feel like in some ways it could have been intentional, like not call on purpose.

And so it, it's hard to, to take cuz not only do you lose your daughter to fentanyl poisoning, but it's like, why would somebody do that? 

[00:21:23] Angela Kennecke: It feels like homicide all the way around between the drug being laced with Fentanyl and this person not calling for help. It feels like a crime to me.

It feels like absolutely. Kate was killed. I mean, she was killed. She didn't choose 

[00:21:36] Deborah Zwicker: to die. She didn't choose to die. She went to get high. She didn't choose to die. And I agree. She was killed. And they knew she was a police officer's daughter and she was trying to get out.

She was trying to get out. We have the text, she was trying to get clean, get out of that scene. And my belief, and you can't tell me anything different, is I feel they knew that she knew too much and she was a risk. And that's pretty much all I can say. But yeah, 

[00:22:04] Angela Kennecke: I hope that you are able to get some justice.

But it doesn't ever bring your child back. Do you know what I'm saying? Like even if all the pieces of the case fall together the way that you'd like to see them and someone is arrested and charged and goes to prison. And in the case of the people who supplied my daughter with the drugs, there are several people in prison.

She wasn't the only one to die. But there are several people in prison with these cases, but it doesn't. Ease that pain, that loss, you know, it doesn't take it away. I mean, I'm glad that there's some punishment so that at least temporarily they're not doing this to other people. 

But do you know what I'm saying about the healing of your heart? Just a court case 

[00:22:45] Deborah Zwicker: doesn't heal? No. No, it doesn't. For myself, what I've been doing since. She passed is immediately I, I needed justice. I needed to speak. I couldn't be silenced. I just got on TikTok and I started talking about fentanyl and I just wish I would've known a lot of things that I know now, like as far as fentanyl and stuff, and educate.

So I created a TikTok platform. I speak about Fentanyl awareness. Trying to help other moms. So they hopefully, or other parents, they don't happen to go through the same pain that we both have gone through. And I also through my lives on TikTok, where usually every Friday night I talk with other moms who are grieving, just how we're navigating moving forward after the loss of our child, whether it's through fentanyl or they've just lost their child.

But generally it tends to be most parents who have lost a child to fentanyl poisoning or substance. Related issues. 

[00:23:34] Angela Kennecke: Right. Well, because it is such a stigmatized death and it's also a death that's hard to accept if your child. Has cancer, you know, it's something that's completely outta your control. It just happened.

It's nobody's fault if your child dies from fentanyl poisoning or overdose. You know they're judged because of their use. Absolutely. And also there's no reason why they had to die, because most of the time, most of these cases, they're not. Intentionally seeking fentanyl. Now I know there are some people out there now.

Yeah. Using fentanyl, which just kind of blows my mind. But they didn't choose to die. They were just choosing, like you said, to get high. And so it's very hard to reconcile all that in our society. 

[00:24:13] Deborah Zwicker: Yes. There's so much stigma around it and I know people ask me, and I am not embarrassed in the least little bit I do when people say, how did your daughter pass away? And I say my daughter was poisoned by fentanyl. My daughter suffered from substance abuse issues and unfortunately she happened to get a batch that was laced with. A substantial amount of fentanyl. And, that's how she passed away.

And like I said, she had hopes and dreams. I have the text. It's hard seeing the text, seeing that she was like, You know, mom, I wanna see the kids more. She was still seeing her kids with supervised visits, but I wanna see the kids more. Mom, you know, I, I have plans when I get over there. I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that, and then just find out like, boom, she's taken away because of, fentanyl being laced in drugs. And I know it's out there now, but I just don't understand why they're doing it.

 You know, with the dichotomy with the drug dealers, and why they do what they do. I. 

[00:25:04] Angela Kennecke: Right. Well, I mean really it's about money. It's about money and it's about making money. It's about getting people hooked.

 Fentanyl is cheap. You don't have to grow crops. Yeah. Those kinds of things like with opium you don't have to grow crops. It's synthetic. It's cheaper. If you do give it to people, it's highly addictive, so they're gonna wanna come back more for your drug because if they don't die and they don't care if people die, I mean, honestly, they don't. Care. 

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:25:27] Angela Kennecke: According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, around 110,000 Americans died in 2022 from illicit drugs, and Canadians are also seeing a rise. The BC Coor says Fentanyl is now detected in nine out of every 10 deadly drug overdoses, including Katie's. Katie died on September 27th, 2022, just a few months shy of her 29th birthday..

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:26:00] Deborah Zwicker: she'll be actually on the 29th and two days will be her champagne, birthday, as she would call it. And she was excited about that, you know, so Yeah. a 

[00:26:08] Angela Kennecke: golden birthday we call it. Yeah. A golden birthday.

Yeah. I know Emily wasn't here for her golden birthday, which would've been 23 two years after her death, and that was really hard for me. How are you getting through these dates? Because, I'm farther out in this grief journey than you, and I have a lot of dates in the spring. I have her birthday, I have Mother's Day. The last day I saw her alive. I have her death date those are still so hard. I just kind of wish I didn't have to go through 'em every year. Yeah. How are you doing? How are you doing with those anniversary? It's 

[00:26:38] Deborah Zwicker: hard because as you know, Angela, it's the first of everything, right? Like it was Thanksgiving and then it was Christmas. And then it was just Easter and now it's her golden for her birthday. It was rough. It was rough. It comes in waves where I'll have two or three really, really bad days and I'm, you know, it's kind of, could be debilitating. And then there's other days where it's like, no, and I have my mission, my voice, and I use my TikTok and I work, with harm reduction.

And I try to spread awareness and just try to create change, so people don't, Hopefully have to go through what we went through. I mean, like you said, I don't know how it's gonna change. I wish that Canada had drug laws like the states where they have that drug-induced homicide and, death by delivery.

We don't have that in Canada and that's something that I'm moving forward. I'm looking at trying to advocate change for, because we need that. We need that. They need to be held accountable,  it's murder. It's murder. You're killing people.

You know, and that's how I, that's how I looked at it. Yeah. So myself and some other moms here in Canada, we're trying to push for that and try to get a group started where I currently live now, so, 

[00:27:39] Angela Kennecke: Well, if anybody can do it, a bunch of angry moms absolutely can do it. I think. So that's how change happens and you have to work together, band together. And I, I look forward to seeing what you can do there in Canada to change that, because I agree with you and we don't have a drug induced homicide law in my state, but there are federal laws that applied. You know, in many cases. And not every state has that. Some states do, some states don't.

But I think it should be everywhere, and I think that will be a deterrent to some people for dealing. Right? Some people are dealing to feed their own habits and, you know, it's just such a messy thing when you start. Delving into all the layers of this, but how were the other members of your family doing 

[00:28:18] Deborah Zwicker: with Kate's loss?

Well, she has step siblings, but her brothers that she was really close to, her 30 year old and 27 year old. They're finding it tough. They miss her, you know, because they were close, but they're doing the best they can to navigate her dad, you know? He works, he keeps busy, but you know, he misses her too terribly. Like she was just, I can't explain it. But Kate was always the type that would just pop in and hey, how you doing? And you know, whether it was with her dad or with us or with her brother, she always was always popping in or like telling jokes or would be funny.

She just always kept everything fun. And now I find it's like the boys are trying to find their way, but they missed their sister because, you know, she was the one that always was the one checking in on everybody.

[00:29:00] Angela Kennecke: Sounds like she was a bright light, which actually, so many people who end up suffering from substance use disorder Yeah. Who end up finding themselves addicted, we're bright, big lights, you know, beautiful lights and really snuffed out by drugs and it's just so, so sad.

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[00:29:16] Deborah Zwicker: I feel like with Covid didn't help at all because now I know when she was reaching out to me all the time saying, mom, I wanna come home. I wanna come home. I wanna come home. 

But I live on an island, we have a bridge to get over to, and they locked it down. So she couldn't get here. And I'm like, Kate, I can't bring, yeah. I said, you can't come honey. And I couldn't go there cuz I'm on an island. So I couldn't get out and nobody could come in.

So I was like, you can't come looking at hindsight, that was her. I need help. I need help. I need help. Because she was spiraling number two. At the detox they need to have at least where she went to. Um, Because Kate did suffer some, in some of her relationships. She had, domestic violence issues. So that also is why she didn't like to be around just having men only and she was the only female. I feel they need to do something when it comes to that because just having guys and girls mixed together, or men doesn't matter, men or women, they need to do something where they can make a woman feel safe if they have issues, if they've had domestic violence issues in their relationships, 

as well as like to not let her smoke cigarettes. Why don't you have a smoking room if there's where that you can be glass. You know what I mean? If you don't want them going outside because potentially somebody could bring you drugs. Well, you could have a smoking room where you're kind of isolated and you'd go and smoke because that was one of the things, if she at least could have had a cigarette, I felt or calm her down, she might have also stayed potentially. I'll never know. But that was another big factor for her as I couldn't smoke. So yeah, I think those were two big things. 

[00:30:38] Angela Kennecke: And also she was 28. You know, she is an adult and the thing is like we can only do so much for our children, and especially when they live in a different city or they don't, they're not living in our home. You had the unprecedented circumstances of Covid. It just seems like everything was going against her to be able to survive this. Right? 

And so many people, so many more people died in the United States. During and right after Covid. And we have all these mental health issues because of the lockdowns, but you know, it just created this huge problem in our societies, and it just is so unfortunate and I think, yeah, as a, parent of an adult child, You only have so much control over what that adult does. 

[00:31:18] Deborah Zwicker: And that's what I try to tell myself. So I don't have that guilt and shame because as moms, you understand like we beat ourselves up, especially at the very beginning. You know, I should have done that. I should have known this cuz you're supposed to protect your children. But then at the same time, she's 28, right? She's an adult. And you know, the times when I would say to her, let's get you into rehab right away. She wasn't ready then. And you know, I look at the things, the steps that I did, and now when I look back, I mean, I did everything I could. There were certain things that were outta my control, such as the covid and like, I mean, the detox center. I couldn't control that. But anything that she needed, she knew we were there as a support system.

She knew that we loved her, and if she wanted to get well and we would be there. I even said, I'll pick you up. Do you want me to drive you to detox? Do you want me to pick you up from detox? I'll let you know, mom. so I look back and I did everything that I feel that I could. I just wish I would've known a lot more about the Fentanyl. But again, I shouldn't say, why would I? if you only have one child, that just becomes in active addiction and fentanyl wasn't there 10 years ago, I didn't know it was being laced, but now I do know, that's why moving forward for me, it's important like you to educate people on awareness of how bad it is, you know, with the fentanyl poisoning.

[00:32:29] Angela Kennecke: I would say the same thing about my daughter. She knew that we loved her. She knew she had a support system. I offered help time and time again. You know, we were actively trying to get her help when she died. And so that's all we can do. She was an adult. She wasn't living in my home. I mean, that really is 

[00:32:45] Deborah Zwicker: absolutely 

[00:32:45] Angela Kennecke: all we can do.

And we can't control what's going on in the world right now. We can't control the fentanyl that's in everything, are the actions of other people. And it's just so unfortunate. But I'm so glad that you're taking this grief and you're so, you know, only seven months. That's, that's not very Yeah. Long. to be on this journey. And the pain is so intense, especially that first year. I think that it starts with shock, you know? And then the pain is just so intense. And the intensity of the pain does lighten a little bit. I would say it, it never really goes away. You just learn to live with it really.

But I love the fact that you're doing this advocacy work. I think you're right about Canada and I. You need to get all those moms together and get those drug-induced homicide laws in place. And also what you're doing on TikTok to educate the whole world is wonderful. So thank you for taking your grief and finding purpose in your pain. 

[00:33:37] Deborah Zwicker: Thank you. It's my pleasure. Thank you so much.

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[00:33:41] Angela Kennecke: And thank you for listening to this episode of Grieving Out Loud. I hope today's discussion sheds light on the pressing issue of fentanyl and substance use disorder. Remember, you're not alone and help is within reach. To learn more about this crisis, find resources for yourself or a loved one. Just visit our website, Emily's Hope dot charity.

I believe that by bravely sharing our pain, we can make an impact on the lives of others and foster change in our nation. Together. Let's strive for a brighter future. Thanks once again for tuning in. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. 

This podcast is produced by Casey Wonnenberg-King and Anna Fey..