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[00:00:00] Angela Kennecke: As we celebrate Independence Day this week, we're excited to reshare an episode that we believe will be helpful to many of you. Our guest is Jessica Lahey, a mom, teacher, and New York Times bestselling author. She struggled with substance use disorder and has been in recovery for a decade. Jessica has not only faced her own battles, but she's also witnessed many of her family members grapple with addiction.

This personal experience and her concerns for her own children led her on a powerful journey to research and write a book called Addiction Inoculation, raising Healthy Kids in a Culture of Dependence. 

[00:00:44] Jessica Lahey: So it's 

both about prevention and it's also about sort of helping them, if they ever do have this problem, that helping them sort of get to the place of recovery faster 

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[00:00:56] Angela Kennecke: Join us on this episode of Grieving Out Loud, as Jessica shares what she has discovered about preventing substance abuse in children. This episode is also a reminder that amidst the holiday celebrations, we must address the complex issues surrounding addiction and parenting.

 Jessica, I'd like to thank you so much for coming on my podcast. Congratulations on the book, the Addiction. Thank you inoculation. First of all, I love the title When my kids Were Little. I learned about the concept of inoculating them from things that were going on around them that they might internalize, right?

Mm-hmm. And so when I saw the title of the book, I was like, I love that. I also, um, as a parent of someone who lost a child to addiction, think that I believe more firmly than I ever have with all the work I've been doing with my charity that. This type of prevention needs to start very young and we all have to be a part of it, right?

Mm-hmm. And that's not happening in our society right now. 

[00:02:00] Jessica Lahey: Yeah. And I think one of the hurdles that, um, one of the important things, I think it's imp, you know, I, I feel the need to put out there whenever I start talking about the book is that, you know, there's mention of, you know, risk factors and things in there, and.

I, I never want anyone to feel like, oh, great, you know, divorce and separation is a risk factor, and, and you're just, you know, what, what am I gonna do with that? And I was doing, you know, and that feeling bad and feeling guilt and shame over the risk factors that are in our children's lives doesn't get any of us anywhere.

And, you know, I think that that's why it was so important for me to talk about my story and the. The risk factors that are in my children's life just as a regular part of life, that it's important for us to talk about. Because if we do it the right way, I hope, then that becomes empowerment. That becomes information, and it becomes something that's useful and helpful as opposed to something that makes us feel bad about, oh, another thing I'm supposed to be doing that I'm not doing.

Um, and you know, I, I'm so respect the fact, especially since, you know, you have lost someone to substance abuse. It's such a difficult place to, it's such a difficult place to start talking about, you know, the things, um, that lie in the path towards, you know, a productive and, and, uh, and healthy adulthood.

[00:03:16] Angela Kennecke: Right? And I, I am divorced from my kid's dad and remarried and I. Often worried and felt guilt and wondered. Mm-hmm. You know, was it because of the divorce? And then I thought to myself, well, you look at all of the millions of children who go through this, and they don't all become Yeah. Addicts, right? Yeah.

[00:03:36] Jessica Lahey: Or, you know, so I. I don't know. It's, it's, 

well, I also, I also have to think about, you know, so one of my parents, um, is an alcoholic as well, and, and now in recovery, and that parent says all the time, you know, I just feel so guilty. I wish I could have done things differently and I wish I could change, turn back time and change it.

And I. Say constantly, you know, I really don't want you to feel that way. That's not productive for you. It's not productive for me. It doesn't allow either of us to look forward and focus on recovery. And so whenever I start to get in my, you know, admired down in my own guilt about the things that I've done, you know, that have put the obstacles, I've put in the path of my own children, I, I remember, oh wait, if this was my parent, I would be telling them to please put that aside and not make that up.

A thing that they, you know, that they focus on because it's just not productive for us. 

Well, 

[00:04:23] Angela Kennecke: and none of us are perfect and none of us have it all figured out. And when we know better, we do better. Right, right. Uh, so I wanna talk a little bit about your journey here and how you got to writing this book.

Mm-hmm. Uh, it started with your own. Or family of origin, the addiction issues there. Mm-hmm. And, uh, you kind of swore that that would never happen to you, or you went in the opposite direction for a while, right? 

[00:04:46] Jessica Lahey: Yeah, I did my, I did my best. I really, really did. I tried so hard and I was so angry about it.

Um, growing up, especially because we weren't allowed to talk about it, you know, like a lot of kids who grew up in a family with substance abuse, we, um, we, you know, we got in. It wasn't like we got in trouble, trouble, we just, we knew we weren't allowed to talk about it. And when we did bring it up, my sister and I kind of tag teamed each other.

It's like, oh, it's your turn now. I brought it up last night. Um, you know, it was very quickly tamped down that that was not something that we were supposed to talk about. And. Um, and, you know, looking back on it now, I, I understand where that came from and I, again, I don't blame, I just understand where that came from, um, because the, you know, the family of origin, that was part of the big process for me is that I was born, I was raised in a house with an alcoholic.

One of my parents was raised in a house with an alcoholic and so on, and so on and so on. And so how do I. Do everything I can do to make this stop with me. And the other thing I wanna make really clear is that while the entire book is about prevention, um, the question comes up all the time, you know, well this isn't, you can't, like 100% in inoculate your kid.

You know, that's not a, you know, you just can't do that. Um, but my vision of this is that, at least for me, um, substance abuse and, and realizing that I had a problem was like a puzzle with like a hundred pieces and. It wasn't until, you know, my dad talking to me about my, my alcoholism was the 100th piece, but without pieces, not one through 99, I couldn't have gotten to that place where it was enough for me that I needed to make change.

And so I kind of hope that if, if one of my kids does end up, you know, going the same way I did, that maybe they have a head start on that puzzle. Maybe they have. You know, 40 pieces in their puzzle instead of starting at puzzle piece zero. 

So it's 

both about prevention and it's also about sort of helping them, if they ever do have this problem, that helping them sort of get to the place of recovery faster is, is sort of a, my dual purpose with this book.

[00:06:46] Angela Kennecke: And I feel like the messages we get, especially as women, In this culture, alcoholism can kind of sneak up on a person, right? I mean, nobody sets out to become an alcohol, the whole wine thing, and moms and wine, I mean, there's t-shirts out there, there's a whole culture around this, right? So, 

[00:07:03] Jessica Lahey: and that really is what happened to me.

I mean, in my forties, you know, I don't know if I let my guard down. I don't know if it became a habit. And then habit became, you know, it got, it hooks into me. I, I don't. Really fully understand how it happened. I just know that slowly over my forties it snuck up. And by the time I, well, in my late thirties, early forties, and after about the decade or so of it sneaking, uh, so all of a sudden I knew it.

I knew it was bad for a long time before I got sober. But, um, and for the life of me, I wish I could point to just one moment, but there wasn't one moment. It just really did sneak up on me. 

[00:07:39] Angela Kennecke: And then it was actually your father that mm-hmm. He helped you realize that you had. Something more than just a habit.

[00:07:45] Jessica Lahey: Right? Yeah. And I, well, and it was, it was my mother's birthday in, uh, June 7th, uh, 2013, and I got really drunk at that party and, uh, don't remember it, I guess. I don't know if that's a blessing or not, but I. And my dad came up the next morning and sat at the end of the guest bed and said, essentially I was at their house and said, you know, I know what an alcoholic looks like and you're an alcoholic.

And I think it was not just that, it was an, you know, someone telling me I had a problem, which, you know, I knew that was coming anyway, but it was the fact that it was my dad and I have so much respect for him because he. Grew up in a home where no, no, no, no, no, you did not talk about this ever, ever, ever.

And so this, he not, and he hates conflict and he hates it when I'm upset with him. Like we are really, really close. And he just doesn't like conflict at all. And so he had to, I, I understood how much he had to overcome in order to be there and sit on the end of the bed and bring this up with me because I knew he was scared to death and it was.

It was the fact that he overcame that in order to do this act of love for me. Um, and, and that meant a lot to me in that moment. 

[00:08:57] Angela Kennecke: So when it comes to this book, this is not your first book, you're an established writer. Mm-hmm. But in order for this book to all come together, it really comes from your perspective as someone who battled addiction and also as a mom.

Mm-hmm. And not wanting your children to go down the same path. How did the idea for the book come into your mind? 

[00:09:18] Jessica Lahey: So like Min. So I was so fortunate. My first book did really, really well. And then there's this sort of fear, you know, what do I do for that second book that can, you know, come anywhere close or top it or you know, there's all these expectations and the with as many authors can tell you, the minute you finish the first book, people are like, so what's that?

What are you writing next? And it was, it's this not only comes out of sort of my story and my, you know, looking for answers for my own kids, but in the middle there, after I had been sober for about a year, um, I started working in a drug and alcohol rehab for adolescents. And so I spent five years with these kids.

Oh my gosh. That I loved, loved, loved so much. I would still be doing it if the rehab. Hadn't decided to, um, make way to not take adolescents anymore to make way for more adults, so they shut down that wing, which was devastating for us. I think it's devastating for, you know, some kids really do need to do inpatient treatment and, um, I.

I love that job so much. So I was spending a lot of time looking at my students and saying, you know what, how did you know? Just thinking in my head like, how did you get here? And because I was their writing teacher, they spent a lot of time writing about the things that got them there. And, uh, So it was, this was really, this was for me to sort of figure out how to keep my kids from reliving what I went through and also figure out what we could have done differently for these kids.

Um, coming from all different backgrounds, coming from both group homes, foster homes, uh, coming from, uh, Affluent families with every protection and every support in the entire world. Um, coming with low ACE scores and high ACE scores and figuring out how all of these kids, sorry, adverse childhood experiences, um, you know, trauma in their backgrounds.

Yes. Um, figuring out how to. What we maybe could have done differently and moving forward from a place of being proactive, what we can do to help more kids. And, uh, there's a, I'm really optimistic because there's a lot of things that we could be doing differently and they're not that difficult to change.

Some of them are very difficult. I mean, obviously systemic racism and poverty and intergenerational stuff that's really, really difficult. But, um, there are some places where the. The move wouldn't be that hard, actually. So 

[00:11:26] Angela Kennecke: I think that's what so many people find surprising about my family's personal story is that.

You know, my daughter was, um, bright and she had all the advantages, and so this really shouldn't have happened to her. Mm-hmm. People have in their mind this preconceived idea of who Yeah. Becomes an addict. Right, 

[00:11:47] Jessica Lahey: right. That's one of my favorite things about when I would introduce myself. My students were constantly, um, changing over because people were coming and going all the time.

And so I had to reintroduce myself to the new kids every week pretty much. And, uh, you know, I would introduce myself as an alcoholic and they'd say, oh, you don't look like an alcoholic. And in front of me, I'm looking at kids, um, you know, all over the place in terms of where they're from and. You know, some of them didn't look like our preconceived notion of who should be in that room either.

And I think that's the problem. I think we have a lot of preconceived notions and for better or for worse, you know, with the opioid epidemic, it wasn't until, you know, white kids, um, started, white kids of privilege started dying, that we started taking things seriously. And that's unfortunate, but fortunate at the same time, in that at least we're understanding that, you know, substance abuse doesn't.

Abide by any socioeconomic or race, uh, lines. Right. 

[00:12:41] Angela Kennecke: Well, yeah. I grew up as you in the eighties when, um, it was the crack issue and it was all mm-hmm. It was a, it was a African American black problem. Right. So Right. People didn't think that that could happen. Yeah. 

[00:12:55] Jessica Lahey: It actually popped up. It's so funny you say that.

It popped up during the George Floyd trial. Um, there was this myth during the eighties that number one, that crack, you know, bypassed the gateway. It broke the gateway hypothesis of drugs, and you could get addicted from your very first use. There was also this myth that, you know, um, especially black men on crack could turn into these like invincible.

They could withstand bullets and tasers and they would keep coming at you. And, um, there was a, you know, during the George Floyd trial, there were all mentions of drugs in his system and how that makes, you know, can make people just, you know, super strong and with, and that's, that's a racist stereotype that came out of the crack epidemic and, and way before that as well, obviously.

[00:13:36] Angela Kennecke: And, and to me, uh, what happened in George Floyd's case certainly has to do with the fact that he was a black man, but also has to do with the fact. That he was under the influence. Mm-hmm. And seen as an addict. Right. So, right. Because addicts are so stigmatized in this society. Right. Which is, if we could just get people to understand it's a disease of the brain.

Yeah. And some people are more susceptible to it than others, but it's a, it seems like a long road for so many of us. But I do think a couple things I was thinking about as I was reading more about you in this book. One thing I really believe is that, and I see this among my peers, parents, you know, of teenagers or young adults, drinking is a rite of passage.

Oh, we did that when we were young and they're just gonna do it, and I'm not gonna say anything. It's just a phase. They'll be fine. You know that that exists everywhere, right? In this country. Right. So how do you address that?

[00:14:31] Jessica Lahey: So, uh, I actually almost didn't include the chapter on college in the book because going into this, I learned so much going into this book and I learned so much about, so many myths were busted in my head.

It was just, it was crazy. Um, I've changed the way, I have a 22 year old and a 17 year old, and I've absolutely changed the way I've raised my kids around substances, um, coming out of this book. But like I said, I almost didn't. That college chapter because I'm like, oh, well everyone in college drinks and you know, I mean, I didn't really, but I'm an exception.

I'm a weirdo. Turns out the numbers of kids who drink in college is so much lower than we might expect, and it's a very, very small sliver of the college population that drinks a. Almost all of the alcohol, uh, on a campus. And so moving backwards from that myth, you know, if we look at, you know, the number of kids that, that try substances during adolescences lower than we would think.

Um, we have this, there's this, and I discussed this in the book. There's this, um, uh, Phenomenon called, uh, pluralistic ignorance, where we tend to overestimate, uh, our societies, our friends, our acquaintances, interest in alcohol, and, um, interest in having it around and the amount they tend to drink. So it was really interesting to sort of use the data in order to say, oh, here's reality, and we can use that to combat our.

Misunderstanding. And at the same time, you know, we also have to understand marketing and we have to understand the fact that because of the 24 7 media saturation, you know, mommy wine time is a thing, and you know, It, it's all over the place, and it's something that as a mother, you know, I have come to get a little resentful about because it makes it, it, it, it has turned our frustrations and our stress and our anxiety about parenting and all the things that we, you know, we're worried we're doing wrong.

It has turned it into a reason to drink and it's turned alcohol into the. The medicine that we take for that anxiety. And, and I, I resent that on behalf of parents. I resent that because, you know, I, and in fact I saw a cup, um, a wine cup at a, a bookstore a couple years ago and it says, I hate this so much.

It says, I teach, therefore I drink. And on behalf of teachers everywhere, that pisses me off because not only does it say that I, you know, this is such a horrible, um, you know, occupation that I have to drink in order to make it, um, you know, something I can handle. I. I would never want my students or my children to think that they are such a burden on me that I have to medicate with a substance in order to bear them.

It's just, it, it makes me angry to. So when these things get so normalized, yeah. 

[00:17:10] Angela Kennecke: So your sons, uh, one thing that I thought was interesting is you've given them some lines that they can say to. Not succumb to peer pressure. And that's just something simple that, that maybe people aren't thinking of. They can tell their kids what, what I, 

[00:17:24] Jessica Lahey: the best we've done and the past has been the just say no, which we know doesn't work.

Um, scared straight and just say, no, doesn't work. But I started thinking, you know, like how I. Knowing the kids. In fact, I ran a bunch of these by my students at the, at the rehab, and you know, a bunch of these are excuses that you can give your kid that are 100% valid and face savings so that they don't look like big dorks.

Like I'm perfectly willing to be a big dork and not drink, and I. Put that out there and have that be something that I take a stand on. But a lot of kids don't wanna do that, and I completely understand that. So I, there's a long list of excuses in the book. Everything from, you know, I'm gluten intolerant, which is all the rage right now, and beer has gluten in it.

Or you know, if you are of Asian descent, then you can, you, there's the flushing that some people of Asian descent can get, which is actually an allergy to some of the things in alcohol. Um, uh, I have a sleep disorder. I, I get seizures. I'm on a medication that, um, you know, I, I can't drink while I'm on this medication.

My parents drug test me, throw us under the bus anytime you want. If you wanna throw my, you know, my kids have thrown me under the bus. Many times, you know, my, my mom is an alcoholic and I just would rather not, you know, have a drink right now. That kind of thing. You know, if, if you wanna, you know, a long list of things that you can give your kids, and that's part of that inoculation.

Um, the, that's in the title. So that's just not, uh, inoculation is, comes from this inoculation theory, which is a school of social sciences, which is about, and psychology. Which is about, um, if we help our kids, if we protect our kids using sort of a weakened version of the thing they might face, like, oh, come on, everybody does it.

Um, you know, that sort of, uh, that sort of treaty to try something for the first time. If we inoculation, uh, inoculate them against that, that weakened version, then they're not only going to be more likely to refuse the real version and be able to. Withstand the real version, um, which is cool. It increases the chances that they will be able to withstand that.

It also increases the chances that, um, it will, it pr, it generalizes, it protects them against all kinds of risk factors like sex before they're ready. Or getting in the car with a drunk driver or, you know, jumping off that garage roof into the pool. Um, inoculation theory, you know, works. Makes kids more likely to use those inoculations and also, and those, those whatever reason it is, they don't wanna do the thing and it generalizes to other high-risk activities.

So as far as I'm concerned, I'm sold. I think inoculation theory is a fantastic tool 

[00:19:53] Angela Kennecke: and it's, as you said, it's not just, you know, the risk of becoming an alcoholic or addict, it's also the risk of the risky behaviors that people do under the influence, which are so frightening. And we've seen deaths every year on spring break and things like that, where.

You know, I, it just continues on because our culture doesn't, is slow to change. 

[00:20:14] Jessica Lahey: Yeah. And I think it's important to think about what I'm trying to do with this book in two ways, which is, number one, of course, I wanna protect kids from having to go down the road. I went down where, you know, and becoming an alcoholic or become, you know, becoming addicted to a substance, but.

You know that I want parents to realize that you know, the risk of that there are lots of kids, 90% of the population can use drugs and alcohol and maybe not have a problem. Um, so that's only part of the picture. The rest of it is we're talking about adolescent brains here. We're not talking about adult brains, we're talking about brains that are not done developing until, you know, the early twenties and all of these.

Things, when you think about the stuff about your teenager that really tends to piss you off. Like, you know, not being able to remember stuff or not being able to, you know, hold three things in their head at the same time, or blowing off deadlines or, you know, that sort of stuff. That's all the stuff that's developing during adolescence.

And if we want our kids to get to their early twenties with their brains intact, um, this is really important that we delay, delay, delay with substances because substances that can be. Low to moderate risk and an adult brain can be moderate to high risk in an in an adolescent brain. And then the last bit of this is the longer we delay a kid's use, the lower their lifelong risk risk for developing substance use disorder becomes.

So there's all kinds of reasons that Delay, delay, delay is the name of the game. And you know, I get asked this all the time, is what I'm saying. You know, are you saying that like no, tell your kids no until they're 21. And as my 17 year old can attest? Yes, that is what I'm saying because, um, it, it turns out that parents who have a clear and consistent message of no, not until you're 21.

And it's not about legality, it's about brain growth for me, um, I mean, I guess it is a little bit about legality, but it's mostly about brain development for me and lowering that lifelong risk. Um, I am saying no, not until you're 21 kids who, parents, uh, kids of parents who have a clear and consistent message of no, not until it's legal for you.

Those kids just have a lower lifelong risk of substance use disorder. I. 

[00:22:24] Angela Kennecke: And 21 is kind of an arbitrary number. We know that the brain isn't fully developed until about 25, roughly. Right. So it Right. And in our society though, to try to get them to not use any alcohol or anything until 25 is a little bit harder because society says that you can drink at 21.

But I just had this conversation. Well 

[00:22:42] Jessica Lahey: in between, between you and me though. If we can get you them just to 18, we can lower their lifelong risk of substance use disorder. Yes. Back down to 10%, which is about what it is in the, in the general population. So from a risk perspective, 1821, I'm happy. Um, really if we can get 'em to 18, then the rest, I'm just happy about all of that because that 10% number is really sort of looming out their 18 to at 18 and that makes me happy right there.

[00:23:08] Angela Kennecke: Yeah. Well, you know, you talk about the war on drugs and one of our nation's former drugs, ours has. Started a, um, a campaign, no use ever until 21, you know, because of this very thing. Mm-hmm. And I just don't think that the message is, is out there. Parents aren't giving their kids that message. Schools, uh, whatever, society are not giving kids that message.

And I just had that conversation in the car with my kids the other day. I said, you know, we were talking about something and I said, it's just the, the effect the younger you use, and I know this. Mm-hmm. Because every addict I've met pretty much started very young, at least with experimenting. And Emily started young, um, with marijuana.

She started about 14 and I feel like it's. That's why we've gotta stop them and Yeah, and we need to do it better. I don't know what, what are some ways that you would suggest or advice for parents? Right. 

[00:23:58] Jessica Lahey: Well, there's two big hurdles. I, I think it's important to point out May, and what's so fascinating about these two hurdles is that this is where I get the most pushback from parents.

So the two big hurdles are, and I fell victim to both of them, uh, one of them anyway, which is, um, okay, well I'm gonna give my kids sips at home so that, like those European kids, I can teach them moderation. Like if, if alcohol is no big deal in our home, that when they hit 1821, whatever, whenever it's time for them, you know, they're legal.

Um, that. Magically they will not have an issue. It will not be like, Ooh, I can have it now. I want all of it. Um, that won't happen. And that's a myth for a couple of reasons. Um, you can't teach moderation, especially to someone like me whose brain just works differently when it comes to alcohol. Once I've had one drink, I.

I just want all of it there. There's no moderation. No, 

[00:24:52] Angela Kennecke: that makes, makes complete sense because I think that that is something that I have felt before. Like I could, if I, if my kids see me having one glass of wine with dinner, they're gonna learn, are my husband having one beer? They're gonna learn that, right?

You just drink moderately. But you're right. Your brain is not wired to do that.

So 

[00:25:06] Jessica Lahey: my brain's not wired to do that. So for about 10% of the population, our brains just don't work that way. And the European moderation thing, That's a myth. The European Union as a whole has the highest rates of alcohol consumption in the world, and so here's where I get a lot of pushback.

People are like, oh, well you're thinking of Eastern Europe, not Western Europe. It turns out that Eastern Europe has actually done the most to move the dial back towards a reasonable, uh, to get the numbers moving back in a healthy direction. Um, because the alcohol abuse was so bad in Eastern Europe. But now countries like France have their public health, um, uh, officers have had to say their public health officials have had to say, okay, look, our rates of alcoholism are so high, of excess drinking are so high that we need to.

Change our public health messaging about how much alcohol is acceptable. Um, you know, drinks per week kind of thing. So no, I'm not talking about just Eastern Europe. I'm talking about European Union as a whole has the highest rates of alcohol consumption in the world. So if you are looking to Europe to be some model of moderation, you're looking in the wrong place.

And so we need to bust that romantic myth a little bit there. And number two, um, the other big hurdle is parents who say, who assume it's a for gun conclusion that kids will drink and say, well, I just want them to be safe so they can do it at my house. I'll take all the keys. Um, no one will drive and we'll just have alcohol at my house.

Well, number one, a far apart from the illegality of that and the aiding and abetting and all that kind of stuff. Um, That actually raises your child's lifelong risk of substance use disorder because what you're conveying is a permissive message, both the European myth and the, you know, sipping and um, and you know, they're just gonna do it anyway so at least we can do it in my house.

Both of those, um, you are raising your child's lifelong risk of substance use disorder. You just are from a statistical standpoint. And yes, there are confounders in the statistics, but. If you say to your kid and, and from, this is why it's been so much easier than I thought to change the rules midstream with my kids because.

My, my kids, uh, you know, we talk a lot about the research that I'm doing at the dinner table and stuff like that. So my kid knows this. He knows that if I let him drink before the age of 21, that I'm raising his risk. And so if I were to let him drink, what I would be saying is I have information that shows that this is increasing your risk and not protecting you, and I'm just gonna not care about that.

And so by. Using by going to him and saying, look, you know, I thought I was doing my best with your brother, Ben. He was allowed to have sips. We thought that was the way to go. We thought we could teach him moderation. I found out that's not true. I have real hard data in front of me that shows that the correct thing I'm supposed to be doing is saying no, not until you're 21.

And so of course I have to change what I'm doing because I love you and I wanna protect you and. Doing anything else would make me, this would be me looking at data and putting, you know, thumbing my nose at it and, and not doing everything I can do to keep you safe. And that's all I would ever want from him, is to do the best he can do, given the data he has.

If he finds out, he can do better to say, huh, I did that wrong. I can do better and move forward from a place of knowledge. So, you know, hopefully as, as irritated as he is with me about the, um, the change in rules midstream, he also knows I'm doing it because, Uh, you know, the science says that that's the way to protect him, and he knows what I went through and he knows what his grandparent went through, and it's not been pretty.

So protecting him from that would just, it makes sense. Yeah.

[00:28:40] Angela Kennecke: So what else would you. Say parents could be doing. So don't sell the moderation myth. Um Right. Don't host parties at your house to keep them safe, which I, you know, I, I've heard of a lot of parents doing that, so it's not unusual. Yep. Uh, I've heard of parents smoking weed with their kids thinking, oh, it's no big deal.

[00:28:59] Jessica Lahey: Yeah. You know? Yeah. Well, and also I think, I think now, especially, I mean, my first B book was all about, you know, parents and kids getting a little too enmeshed in their relationship and, you know, wanting to appear cool to our kids and wanting to be friends with our kids as opposed to being parents. And I, I think I, I wanna be cool to my kids so badly and they are never gonna think I'm cool.

My, my husband and I are huge dorks to them and mm-hmm. That's okay. I, I'm okay with that. I don't need to be cool to my kid. Um, It's just not, it's something that I've given up on and that's gotta be okay. Um, I also wanna mention really quickly that my kids came into this world. You know, the, uh, genetics is 50 to 60% of the risk picture.

So this was particularly urgent for me because my kids come into this world pre-primed. I mean, they're 50 to 60% of their risk is right there. So, so do you, 

[00:29:47] Angela Kennecke: so do you think that you can overcome genetics? Yes. Because that is one thing with, on. Uh, with Emily's case, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, it's on both sides of her family.

Yeah. So how do you, can you overcome it? 

[00:30:00] Jessica Lahey: Yeah, we talk, the, the way people talk about this in the research is that, you know, genetics is not destiny. So there's a, a horrible analogy that I have to use cuz it's apt, um, I hate it though, which is that genetics is the bullet that you load into the gun, and then the trigger is trauma.

And when I say trauma, I'm talking about big T trauma, like. Adverse childhood experiences, um, you know, the things that the C d C has on their list of ad adverse childhood experiences, plus the additional factors that Nadine Burke Harris has put on the list from, um, in her book, the Deepest Well, um, she's fantastic.

If you wanna understand ACEs, uh, her book The Deepest Well is fantastic. And that's things like, obviously. You know, violence in the home, abuse in the home, substance abuse in the home, an incarcerated parent, death of a parent, um, divorce and separation. But on top of that, there are things like adoption, systemic racism.

There's all this other stuff that is trauma. And then when we talk about women and girls, we need to understand that women and girls have susceptibility, um, added susceptibility that is important to remember. And a big one there is anxiety. Um, many, many women drink. Myself included, drink to deal, to cope with anxiety.

And um, in the book, I, I tell the story of someone named Georgia. That's her real name, by the way. I'm so indebted to her and to Brian, who were two major stories in the book. Um, they felt it was really important to use their real names and to own their stories, to make their stories, you know, um, be helpful for someone else.

Georgia drank, um, she was a daily drinker by the time I became her teacher in high school, and that was to, to mask her anxiety. And in fact, so. Many women to mask anx, drink to mask anxiety. It's actually more likely for a woman with anxiety to drink abnormally than to drink normally, according to the statistics interestingly.

So understanding that our kids are under a whole lot of stressors now that fall under the sort of stressors that don't rise to the level of big T trauma, but are things that we really do need to be thinking about. And this pandemic has exacerbated many of those, you know, anxiety and it's through the world, especially social anxiety.

Right? Yeah. Um, So keeping in mind that, you know, 50 to 60% of this is genetics. Um, my husband was raised in a family where there's addiction on both sides of his family, and yet he drinks, you know, he can have, we don't keep open alcohol in the house, but he will buy himself, you know, something to have with dinner and if he doesn't finish it, he pours it out.

And that's just how he is. He drinks like the 90%, not like the 10%. Yeah. So it is not destiny. It's absolutely not destiny. Right, right. So anyway, you asked me, sorry. You asked me about protections, um, protections, big ones. Talk to your kids from a very, very young age. The, the substance abuse. The child, sorry, the, the school related.

The school-oriented. School-based, sorry. That's the word I'm looking for. The school-based, uh, substance abuse prevention programs that we know work are really just. Great social emotional learning programs. Yes.

[00:32:58] Angela Kennecke: I have a question about that. Yeah. Because, um, I really believe that we need to get to kids younger in the school based programs.

[00:33:05] Jessica Lahey: Right. I think by, if you start in middle school or high school, oh, that's too late. Right. It's way too, I think we need to get in. We're not doing that where I live. Mm-hmm. Getting to kids, like, and I have been unable to find a program. Um, which I'm very passionate about developing one, we're working on that.

Emily's hope right now, um, for like a third grade level is kind of the target. I actually, they start, 

it starts even earlier than that. Um, and what's important to understand is we're not talking about crystal meth with third graders. We're talking about, we're talking about. This is, we're talking about, you know, why we, why we don't swallow the toothpaste, why we spit it out, why we wash our hands, why we don't eat the Tide pods.

Why when we see, um, you know, that one of the things I suggest is like if you're sitting there with your kid who's just learning their letters and there's a prescription bottle on the counter that has your name on it. Say, you know, can you find the letters of mommy's name in this label? And. Why do you think Mommy's name is on that label?

Like what, what if you had the same thing that what if you got sick and had the same thing mommy had, do you think you could just take what's in that bottle? So having those conversations from very young, the social emotional learning programs with the health component, they exist. We know there, there is an, uh, there are a couple of places that sort of look at, um, one of them is blueprints outta University of Colorado at Boulder that looks.

Objectively from a third party perspective at, um, substance abuse prevention programs and evaluates them for efficacy. And we know they exist. And only 50% of school, 57% of schools have any substance abuse prevention program. Right. And of that 57%. Only 10% are evidence-based. So it's not like we have to reinvent the wheel.

It's not like we have to build something new and, and if you're building something new, that's fantastic because I think these things do have to evolve over time. Um, as things change and as kids change and as technology changes, but. We have these programs and schools right now, especially know that s e l programs are gonna be vital to helping get kids through this pandemic and emerge out the other side mentally and physically healthy.

So if we know these programs are important and they exist, and the ones that have really good substance use disorder, um, programs in them do exist, why we're not using these, I don't understand. And I, I present the economics of, you know, how much we. Stand to save if we invest in prevention. So, you know, there's, it just, you would think that would make me angry.

And at the same time, it makes me immensely optimistic because these programs exist. They're there, they're there to be used, they're easily available and all we have to do is sort of, you know, put that wheel on the wagon and get it moving in the right direction. Well, and it's, they have the potential to save a lot of lives.

[00:35:47] Angela Kennecke: And prevention is, is so much easier than treatment and recovery, as you know, because once you have. Become addicted then. Mm-hmm. Once you're suffering from substance use disorder, that is a lifelong battle, right? 

[00:36:00] Jessica Lahey: That, well, I mean, I, I, I worry about calling. Um, first of all, um, recovery for kids is different than recovery from adults.

I mean, and, and I'm assuming you know, some of this, which is that because kids don't have fully Integra, they have a lack of what's called integration in their brain. Their, their upper brain and lower brain, they're sort of more fully formed adult brains, and their lower brains are not. Connected, yet it's a very different road to recovery for kids.

And relapse is a very big part of that. Um, and I think we need to change the way we treat and manage, um, kids in recovery in order to, you know, in order to deal with that, in order to face that reality. On the other hand, I, you know, I don't think I shy away from referring to something as a lifelong battle because, you know, for me it's been a massive relief to not have to spend all of that energy thinking about, is there enough alcohol?

How can I get enough alcohol? How do I hide all this alcohol? How do I hide all the bottles of the, you know, blah, blah, blah, all that sort of stuff. And, you know, battle, I, I worry about the term battle because it's been such. A fantastic almost eight years that I would, I don't want, especially kids, to think of it as like some horrible battle that they have to undertake for the every day, for the rest of their lives.

Yeah. Because that's definitely not what it's been for me. Yes.

[00:37:23] Angela Kennecke: And I think that's wonderful. Relapse can certainly be a part of it for mm-hmm. Many people. And so I feel that if we could just prevent more Yeah. On the front end, you know, it would be, It would be, it would save society. A lot of money, a lot of pain, a lot of heartache.

A lot of all of it. Right. And, and that's what you're trying to do and that's what you're trying to do with your book too, you know? 

[00:37:45] Jessica Lahey: And to get it, your question that I, I apologize, we've had so much fun stuff to talk about. Um, so the best preventions are talk early and talk often. I swear to parents, I promise, the more you talk about this stuff, the easier it gets.

It's sort of like, you know, Peggy Ornstein, who wrote the wonderful books, boys and Sex and Girls and Sex, um, we joke all the time that, you know, when it, when it comes to difficult conversations, actually the more often you have them, the easier they've become. Um, it's something we talk about a lot. In our home.

Um, but early talk talk often, uh, listen to your kids, don't talk from a place of judgment. And then on top of that, there are things like early intervention. We know some of the other risk factors, uh, separate from genetics and trauma. Adverse childhood experiences are, um, academic failure is a really big one.

And so getting there early intervening, early undiagnosed learning issues. There were always kids in my classroom with undiagnosed or barely treated, uh, learning issues. Um, Uh, social ostracism is a big risk factor for kids, and you can see how these things can become intertwined really easily. Um, when a child is aggressive towards other children.

We need to deal with that at a very early age because that is a big risk factor. Uh, For, for, um, substance, uh, sorry. Um, you know, physical and sexual abuse is a huge risk factor. It's one of the biggest risk factors for kids. And so we need to believe kids when they tell us that they're, you know, if they're, um, being made uncomfortable by someone else's, um, behavior.

So there are all sorts of, and then there are risk, uh, periods as well. You know, for example, transitions for kids. Um, the transition between middle and high school is a big, uh, risky time for kids. So understanding what those risk factors are. Having a very clear eye about them not getting freaked out and defensive and, you know, feeling guilty or shame and then moving forward from a place of, okay, so let's, we know this is a risk factor, let's deal with it.

[00:39:37] Angela Kennecke: I can pinpoint what you said. The transition between middle and high school was when it started falling apart for Emily's. Yeah, that is when, and then there was some social ostracization and um mm-hmm. Also anxiety. And I can pinpoint and, and, you know, I think the hardest thing for many parents is once it's, once you've already started going, you talk about interventions.

Mm-hmm. Well, right. I tried to intervene, you know, I took her to counselor. After counselor. I tried every, everything I could think of tough love. Mm-hmm. Everything, you know, under the sun, and none of it worked. Yeah. You know, none of it, I think the pro, 

[00:40:10] Jessica Lahey: yeah, the problem is, uh, especially where anxiety is concerned, you know, pot and alcohol work great in the short term, they really do.

I mean, the reason what the problem with saying like drugs are bad to kids is that they know we're lying because why would so many people be using them if they were just bad that that. Makes no sense. And so when, you know, for example, for Georgia in the, in the book, you know, the best, um, efforts her school made to sort of keep her away from alcohol was the very thing that caused her to use it.

Because the person who was talking about how bad alcohol was, he said, you know, it just makes you feel numb and makes you not feel your problems. And she was like, bingo, that's what I'm looking for. Exactly. Yeah. And there she was off and running. So, The problem is, is that it exacerbates both over the long run and, um, I, you know, giving kids information, both the good and the bad is gonna be really important to helping them trust us when we're trying to help them see the clear.

Consequences of what can happen to their brains and to their bodies, and to all of that stuff they're trying to numb out and not feel over the long term. And then helping gi, helping them give, you know, there's a saying in, in, um, in cognitive behavioral therapy, which is you have to name it to tame it. So naming emotions, talking about emotions, helping kids understand that it's okay to feel emotions, um, and helping kids deal with that stuff before they feel the need to sort of numb it out and medicate it out of them.

[00:41:36] Angela Kennecke: I've also talked about this a little bit before that, um, I tried all that tough love stuff that I was told to do. Then I took a class on parenting oppositional defiant kids and learned different techniques. But I do think the tough love doesn't work once you have a kid who's rebelling and using and doing all of these things.

And that's, that's one thing that I guess we can talk about regrets, but we all have regrets, right? That I wish I hadn't. Tried those things, but I, at the time, it was so hard for me to do some of those tough little things. Of course, of course. I thought I could scare her. Yeah. I think we have this idea that, but now I understand the way the brain was wired and the effects of the substances on her brain.

There was no scaring her away from this. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah, 

[00:42:18] Jessica Lahey: and I think the trap that a lot of, um, that we tend to fall into is believing that kids don't understand the consequences of their behavior, and that's just not true. It's just that they weigh the possible benefits much heavier than they weigh the possible negative consequences.

And so we have to help them. Overcome that. And, and part of overcoming that is giving them real data, giving them a very clear, um, idea of sort of what's going on with their brain, um, and, and that sort of stuff. And then I think, I think the problem is also is that, and the problem as, as the person who wrote the book, the Gift of Failure, and then is writing this book.

Is that we know that parents who are more controlling and parents who, you know, clamp down and try to control every single thing a kid does. We know that those kids tend to become more deceptive and that it exacerbates the lying and the deception. So we have to, you know, and there's no, at the, at your point, I don't ever want you to feel like, you know, you need to look back and say, oh, you know, all these things I could have done if I had just done these things differently.

I think we do what we do out of. Love. We do what we do because we understand that this is the best possible, um, way to do things. And in fact, you know, the pa the book I recommend the most often actually is a wonderful book by Dr. Joseph Lee called Recovering My Kid. Um, and that's, he's the, he runs the adolescent services at Hazleton and his book is a really, offers a lot of really wonderful ways to think about how teen brains.

Work and how they work when they are under the influence. Um, I think it's a really helpful, really helpful book. 

[00:43:55] Angela Kennecke: Well, we'll put a link, uh, on the show notes of this podcast too to that if people wanna check that out. And we will definitely link to your website and let people know how to get the book, the Addiction Inoculation.

I wanna thank you so much for taking the time to spend with me today and, uh, I, I think this book is gonna make a huge difference in many. Thank you. 

[00:44:15] Jessica Lahey: And thank you for sharing your story with me. It's. Amazing to me. Um, you know, when I first started talking about the fact that I was in recovery, um, years ago on stage, um, you know, the number of people who reach out and tell me their stories was mind boggling.

And I feel honored and privileged every single time someone shares their story. So thank you for sharing your story. I think it's what you're doing is so important because the more we talk about it and the more we, um, battle the shame and stigma around. Substance abuse, the better we're gonna do for kids in terms of, um, helping them, helping them resist, you know, I think this, the shame and the secrets are why keep us sick.

And so I think it's important to talk about it. 

[00:44:55] Angela Kennecke: And with 223 people dying every day from overdose, we can't afford not to talk about it. Yep. This, that has to end in this society. I mean, I, that's why I'm shouting from the rooftops, so to speak. Yeah. About this issue. And I know so many other, even when I write something or put a podcast out there, whenever it might be, I know many other parents are in the same boat and, and, 

[00:45:17] Jessica Lahey: and we could be each other's best allies.

And yet, you know, so many parents I talk to are like, look, I need this to be in the strictest confidence. I can't have anyone knowing that. We're going through this. And I just wanna say, I wish all those other people who are also saying that exact same thing did know that you're going through it, because at least then you'd have someone to talk to about it.

[00:45:36] Angela Kennecke: Well, right. And to know you're not alone and to know it's not also, uh, we take on so much of that, that we feel like it's a reflection of us, you know, and it's not, it's a disease of the brain and Right. We could do better. We could do better at, uh, the prevention efforts. We can do better. Uh, when we, when we know better, we can do better.

[00:45:54] Jessica Lahey: So, absolutely. Thank you so much for telling your story. It's just, it's, it's an honor to be on, on here with you. 

[00:46:01] Angela Kennecke: Well, thank you for writing the book. So we have the Mutual Admiration Society here. I was so excited to see you doing this, cuz I'm like, yes, we need more of this. We need more. So thank you. It was.

[00:46:09] Jessica Lahey: It's scary. It it's scary in, in that, you know, the problem is, is it's, you know, a addiction is a family disease. And it's not just my story, it's a story of my relatives and my, not just my ancestors, but my cousins and my aunts and uncles and all those people. And, and, um, you know, it's, it's scary to, to.

Draw those people into telling your story. So I had to be respectful of their stories and yet make it clear that, you know, we're, we're not alone. That there are lots of people dealing with this 

[00:46:37] Angela Kennecke: lots and lots. So thank you, thank you. Thank you for joining me for this latest edition of Grieving Out Loud.

If you're enjoying the podcast, please consider giving a positive review. Wishing you faith, hope, and courage.

 This podcast is produced by Casey Wonnenberg King and Anna Fey