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[00:00:00] Angela Kennecke: Prepare to be captivated by a story of unimaginable loss and resilience. 

I'm Angela Kennecke and today on Grieving Out Loud, we delve into the heart wrenching journey of Jim Nelson. His life was forever altered when his brother's tragic suicide, shattered his world. But what Jim didn't anticipate was the cruel twist of fate that awaited him.

Join us as we explore the depths of Jim's pain. And uncover the staggering tragedy that unfolded within his own family, leaving him grappling with unspeakable sorrow.

[00:00:38] Jim Nelson:  I didn't understand how it came to this, you know, all of a sudden one day she was dead. And how did that happen? And so I just went into this research thing and we, we found her journals , her Therapist had her keeping a journal we had obviously never looked at it.

 You know, that was a private thing. But of course now that she was dead, we went through the whole thing and there were a lot of clues there. She also had a bipolar workbook thing that she had put a lot of things in there, and she was talking in there about suicide quite a bit. The other thing that kind of confirmed some of the suicide, there were a couple of.

Pictures she had made on her phone. That were farewell pictures like gone too soon I think was a capture with her, you know, and then her face and stuff like that, you know, and these had been made just a couple days before she died. 

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[00:01:29] Angela Kennecke: The anguish that Jim experienced with his daughter's suicide is something no parent should ever endure, and yet admits the depths of this unimaginable grief. Jim has found a way to rise above the darkness. Today he joins us to share his story to shed light on his journey through the depths of despair and to provide hope for those who may be walking a similar path.

Before we dive into this powerful conversation, I wanna take a moment to acknowledge my own personal connection to the pain of losing a child too soon. My daughter's life was tragically cut short due to fentanyl poisoning when she was just 21. Like Jim, I know the heartache and the long winding road of grief all too well.

So together let's embark on this candid discussion with Jim as we explore the complexities of grief, the resilience of the human spirit, and the power of finding hope amidst unimaginable loss.

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[00:02:28] Angela Kennecke: Hi, Jim. Thank you so much for joining me to talk about your daughter Miranda, and a little bit of what you are doing after your loss and with your grief. So thank you so much. 

[00:02:39] Jim Nelson: Sure. It's my pleasure and I really appreciate the opportunity to, you know, kind of share Miranda's story. I think uh, any, anything we can do to get the word out and awareness is beneficial somehow.

[00:02:50] Angela Kennecke: As I was doing a little research before our conversation, I was learning a little bit more about Miranda and her life, and I think that Miranda and Emily had some commonalities as well. But I would just like to hear a little bit about your daughter, Miranda, just tell me a little bit about what she was like growing up.

[00:03:07] Jim Nelson: I mean, we were kind of what I would consider sort of your normal family. Both my wife and I went to college and our parents went to college and it was just a stable environment. You know, we've been married 31 years, I think at the time where she died. as a young kid, she was you know, very interested in a lot of different things.

Seemed to be sharp and happy and all that stuff. Her main hobby, the thing she loved the most really was animals, ultimately including pets. She loved. Animals and pets and that type of thing. But she did a lot of other things. She was in a dance studio for, nine years or seven years or something like that.

Did some martial arts for a while and just a variety of things ultimately leading to her getting into horses and horses kind of became a central theme for the remainder of her life actually. So she really got into that early. At age 13, she started being an intern at a local equestrian center.

So 

[00:04:08] Angela Kennecke: she had loved animals. Was she your only child? 

[00:04:11] Jim Nelson: No, she had a brother. Two and a half years younger. We had Trevor and my wife was originally a teacher. She taught for eight years and then decided to homeschool the kids. You know, we kind of did the financials on. Cost of putting 'em somewhere, daycare or whatever, versus the added income.

And it just seemed like it made sense to do the homeschooling and she wanted to do it. My wife did. 

[00:04:32] Angela Kennecke: Would you say that Miranda was a sensitive person? 

[00:04:36] Jim Nelson: I would say kind of average in terms of her sensitivities, but of course, With time, things got different for her.

You know, she might be a little different than some of the other people you talked to that are dying of fentanyl poisoning, which I know is super common. She didn't die of that. In hindsight, reviewing everything, it was a very conscious effort to commit suicide through an overdose. But we, Saw that as a plausible thing to happen, but we didn't think it would happen and 

we'd taken some courses we took the NAMI Family to Family course, which is a really great 12 week course to kind of understand mental illness and what parents can do when they have kids that are doing stuff like this.

And we kinda thought we were doing pretty much. All the right stuff, and I kind of think we were actually, but Miranda kept a lot of things secret and so it was hard for us to always tell what was going on, 

[00:05:31] Angela Kennecke: that's the really tough part because obviously you're educated, you're knowledgeable, you know where to go for help.

Whatever help there is, you feel like you're taking steps to help your child. And at this point you had an adult child, but at what age was she diagnosed with mental illness? 

[00:05:50] Jim Nelson: Smaller forms of mental illness. I think it was age 12. her initial thing was kind of a O C D type of thing.

She was obsessing over cleanliness of silverware and she used to flip coins to make decisions and just kind of odd things. My wife took her in and had her talk with a psychiatrist and I think they said she had, you know, some issues at that point and she got on some kind of medication and then over time things just kind of got worse.

 She eventually got into this phase where she was doing a lot of the self-harm stuff, you know, cutting. 

[00:06:28] Angela Kennecke: Let's talk about that for a minute, because Emily did some of that as a teenager as well. Mm-hmm. And it really alarmed me. And she had a few O c d tendencies when she was younger in terms of like when there were certain rituals that had to be performed, like when she went to bed and the door had to be so far open.

And some of those things I think are just. A lot of kids go through phases like that, right. You just don't know what's a phase and what's serious. Yeah. But the self-harm, the cutting, and I think it's just so common among teenage girls now, and to me, it was such a foreign thing. I was like, yeah, why? I don't understand.

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[00:07:05] Angela Kennecke: In fact, a recent analysis of Centers for Disease Control data reveals that international self-harm among girls ages 10 to 14 increased 166% from 2001 to 2015. For those aged 15 to 19, it rose 62% up to 30% of teen girls, and 10% of boys say they have intentionally hurt themselves. One study found that as much as 25% of young people engage in self-harm, 

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[00:07:35] Angela Kennecke: I do understand that there was some kind of release in that pain. Yeah. Now I think I understand a little bit better, but what did you understand about it at the 

[00:07:43] Jim Nelson: time? At the time I was just really frustrated because, it's not obvious that there was a way that that could produce something pleasing or releasing or whatever for the person that's doing it, creating, you know, pain.

And it just seemed really, Was hard for me to deal with that, yeah, eventually I was taught that what it was was, you know, she was, it was her way of coping and it was an unusual way to me, but I learned later that it was actually quite common almost like a fad thing. It might not have been common 50 years ago, but it seemed to be common in this era.

[00:08:20] Angela Kennecke: it's almost like the idea gets planted, right? Yeah. It's like a virus that spreads mm-hmm. In a way, some of these mental issues because Yeah, I remember there was one girl in my high school who was cutting, and we all thought that was the most bizarre thing.

We ever heard of, right? Yeah. And now it is very common. So what was the solution for that for Miranda? 

[00:08:40] Jim Nelson: eventually she got to where she was seeing both a therapist and the psychiatrist and, they trained her to do some things like have a rubber band on her wrist and snap the rubber band real hard and get the pain that way and, you know, try to hold back from doing anything else.

And I think some of that stuff worked a little bit, and eventually the cutting phase kind of passed she didn't do it in her last, I'd say five years of life or maybe even more than that. She kind of stopped doing that, but she had other problems. You know, her mental illness was evolving more towards depression, anxiety, and ultimately she got diagnosed as bipolar.

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[00:09:23] Angela Kennecke: unfortunately Miranda's condition is not that unusual, especially today.

The CDC C'S latest data reveals that nearly half of all high school students feel persistently sad or hopeless. Nearly one third experience poor mental health, especially worrisome more than one in five students have seriously considered attempting suicide. And one in 10 have tried to take their own life.

Meanwhile, Miranda really wanted to use what she had learned about mental health to help others. She decided to go to college to study psychology.

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[00:10:00] Jim Nelson: Because she'd had so much familiarity with seeing these different professionals and she just could see herself in a role like that. She could relate to those people having been through it and had her own issues, you know. So she thought that was a good fit for her and I think it was a good fit.

She really enjoyed it. She was passionate about it. She really, thought it was a great field. But I tell you, it is a tough field to get into. And that led to some of her later issues because it's hard to get employment, you know, in that field. most people that get psychology degrees, it's a very common degree.

Use it as, you know, general education like a liberal arts major and they can kind of go anywhere with that. You going to banking or you know, anything. With psychology because you've learned how about people and how they operate, how they interact. But getting a job actually in the field as a psychologist is quite difficult.

You have to, go on and get the equivalent of essentially a PhD in psychology and you can get a master's and become know, a family therapist and things like that. But that's not easy either because they all have experience requirements that precede them. You know, you can't get outta college at.

Age 23 and become a therapist at age 23. You know, People want to hear from people that have life experience and wisdom, and so it's really tough to break in as a therapist in that. And so she saw some of that difficulty and I think that compounded a lot of her, you know, stress even after college.

[00:11:28] Angela Kennecke: So she was discouraged. Yeah, yeah. 

And did you see periods, like really good periods where she seemed healthy and well, or. Did the difficulties seem to intensify as she got older? 

[00:11:42] Jim Nelson: She always had periods where she seemed healthy and well, except for maybe the last three months of her life.

She kind of got uh, stuck in sort of a downward spiral in that period. But prior to that I would say yes, she always had normal periods where, She seemed, you know, like a regular person and was happy. She used to love dancing and, doing all kinds of fun things. she loved Halloween and dressing up.

That was like her favorite holiday. You know, we have Knots Berry Farm out here, and they'd call it Knots, scary Farm. She'd get a big group of people and they'd go and do that every year. So there were definitely things she loved. Horses, obviously, she was just in heaven when she was riding a horse, you know.

[00:12:24] Angela Kennecke: I love the fact that you are talking about the challenges and the mental health issues that Miranda faced because I think often as parents it can feel like, I know you did everything. You did everything you could think of. You got her the help. It wasn't like she didn't have the resources. A lot of people don't have resources.

Your daughter had resources. But just the fact that you're talking about it, I think is huge because we can feel so much shame as parents if our children aren't doing well. 

[00:12:51] Jim Nelson: Yeah. Right. That's true. we we're in some social groups and we do different things with other friends, and it, it's kind of a weird thing, you know, your, kid is, you know, no longer with the group.

And it is just a weird thing. There's always sort of like a little secret competition between parents, I think, with their kids. Hmm. And then there's a stigma with that too, mental health has a big stigma and I think it's getting better. There's some awareness that's coming out, especially in the, like the sports and entertainment.

There's a lot of people there suffering from mental illness that have come out recently and they're kind of promoting that they have this problem and it's not that unusual. And, you know, we need to let right deal with that stuff. 

[00:13:33] Angela Kennecke: Attitudes are changing. And you're part of that, just you speaking about it, is part of changing attitudes of people to see things in a different light, to see it differently.

So at what point did substances come into play with Miranda's life, with her mental illness? 

[00:13:49] Jim Nelson: Recreational, the use of cannabis probably came in You know, maybe age 16 or 17 in that timeframe. Probably introduced through some of her boyfriends that she had that were kind of more into that sort of thing.

[00:14:05] Angela Kennecke: she started about the same age as Emily 15, 16, right in there. I know some people, some adults use cannabis for medical purposes and oftentimes that's anxiety. Right, right. Or depression. But I think in the developing brain, I think it can actually make things worse 

do you think that could be the case with Miranda? Because I think that's the case with Emily. I just think it sets people up for addiction. It sets people up for use of. In Emily's case, it was some pills, especially in the beginning. Same with Miranda. And I just really wish we could keep those substances away from our children and their brains.

[00:14:40] Jim Nelson: Yeah, I agree with you. It definitely kind of paints a path for them to, to go forward. It makes them feel more comfortable with drugs. They get, used to the feeling of intoxication and that kind of thing. And so I definitely don't think it helps. I know some people think maybe it can help with anxiety or getting to sleep and things like that, and you know, I don't know. I'm not a big fan of that. 

[00:15:05] Angela Kennecke: Right. And I think it's a completely different thing if a 25 year old with a fully developed brain decides that they want to try that. Yeah. For those purposes. I think that's a completely different thing where it's legal than if somebody with a developing brain.

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[00:15:19] Angela Kennecke: Although scientists are still learning about the effects of marijuana on developing brains, research suggests it may affect how the brain builds connections for functions like attention, memory, and learning. These effects may last a long time or even be permanent.

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[00:15:46] Angela Kennecke: And because it's just so common in our culture. Mm-hmm. And especially you're in California, so I mean, that's way ahead of the game when it comes to cannabis, California and the legalization of it anyway. I know it's for people who are 21, but. We all know just like alcohol and we know the prevalence of young people smoking marijuana in high school and college too.

So I mean, reality is they have it, they're getting it. Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:09] Jim Nelson: Yeah. I think out here, you know, that was one of the things that made things kind of tough for us. I think at age 18,. You could get a medical marijuana certificate.

So that's what she did. she went to some kind of quack doctor, frankly. Sure. Who basically has 

[00:16:27] Angela Kennecke: somebody who's handing out a signature. 

[00:16:29] Jim Nelson: Yes. They have a list of a hundred symptoms. And if you have any of those a hundred symptoms, you know, marijuana can be your cure. So, Then they write you this little card and you could go to a dispensary.

That's when they had dispensaries in California. But in the later years, you know, it became fully legal. You know, so here we are as parents, we realized she's doing that. But I will say she, kept it very much a secret from us. We didn't know the extent of it until we read in her journal and found that.

some days she was smoking it six times a day. She tracked it sometimes it was even more than that, but I think it was like an average of six and she was tracking that for her psychologist. 

So there was that aspect. There was the prescription drugs that she was already on. And then um, in her late high school, I think she was 16, she had a really bad accident on a horse. She fell off the horse. Broke both of the bones in one of her arms and had to have surgery and all that. And that essentially introduced, you know, the opiates.

So she never got into the opiates, but I think that was like a wake up call that, hey, these drugs can provide some feelings that are kind of an escape from reality. And so she had that. About a year later she got into a car accident. She was with my wife and they got T-boned. It was actually a really bad accident, but she did pretty well. The car seemed to hold up pretty well and then she rebroke her arm. She tripped at college. She tripped over a doormat of all things and fell on the arm that had had the supporting hardware removed, and it broke one of the bones right through the fastener hole for that hardware. And so she had to go in for another surgery.

So in the space of about two years, she had a lot of painkillers and all of that stuff. I think that had something to do with probably drug use as well. And then she kind of, that evolved as a sort of a self-medication. I think also the psychology background was not all positive for her because she had a lot of knowledge on how these drugs work, and she kind of felt Emboldened or entitled to sort of self-medicate or address 

[00:18:37] Angela Kennecke: or in control. She probably felt in control. Right, because of what she knew. Yeah. Even though she wasn't necessarily in control. Right. 

[00:18:44] Jim Nelson: She said, I'll take a little more of this, a little less of that. And so one thing led to another and then I think she kind of got into a phase where she was sort of over-medicating and self-medicating and taking too many things at the same time.

She had about five prescriptions. That she was on, you know mood stabilizers, antidepressants, anti-anxiety, you know, different things like that. so she was always kind of working a cocktail of those things to try to get the best result for herself. 

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[00:19:15] Angela Kennecke: Yeah. What was the ultimate drug that she overdosed on?

[00:19:18] Jim Nelson: It was one called Soma, which is not common for overdoses. It's a skeletal muscle relaxant. She also had a little bit of scoliosis, and I guess she had claimed that that had given her some pain and made it difficult for her to sleep. her psychiatrist prescribed Soma to her. I guess she liked the feeling of it and if it was possible to overdose with that drug, she had done some research on it. So 

[00:19:45] Angela Kennecke: and there's no doubt in your mind that it was intentional then. 

[00:19:48] Jim Nelson: Yeah. Mm-hmm. We were, you know, right after it happened, it became a research project for me. I wanted answers. I didn't understand how it came to this, you know, all of a sudden one day she was dead. And how did that happen? And so I just went into this research thing and we, found her journals , her Therapist had her keeping a journal we had obviously never looked at it.

 You know, that was a private thing. But of course now that she was dead, we went through the whole thing and there were a lot of clues there. She also had a bipolar workbook thing that she had put a lot of things in there, and she was talking in there about suicide quite a bit. The other thing that kind of confirmed some of the suicide, there were a couple of.

Pictures she had made on her phone. That were kind of farewell pictures like  gone too soon I think was a capture with her, you know, and then her face and stuff like that, you know, and these had been made just a couple days before she died. So we could see it then. That that was it. And another thing she did is she took an anti-nausea drug along with the soma. She took the entire bottle, by the way, she had refilled the day before 30 tablets. She took the whole thing. It was empty. And she had taken an anti-nausea medication to prevent her from, throwing that up.

So it was a very carefully planned. Yeah, suicide, which really, I'm so sorry. Quite shocking. Couldn't believe it, you know? 

[00:21:12] Angela Kennecke: That's so difficult for me to even hear, and I'm so sorry. And I just as a parent, I mean, you're devastated enough to lose a child, and I think suicide is one of those special circumstances where it also feels as though it's rejection, right?

Yeah. I mean, it's just such a tough thing. 

[00:21:30] Jim Nelson: Exactly right. It is. 

[00:21:32] Angela Kennecke: So how has this affected your entire family? How has it affected her mom, your wife, your son, you? 

[00:21:39] Jim Nelson: Well, I think it's affected us all a little bit differently. We mentioned earlier about my brother. So when I was 21 and I was in college, my brother was 23 and he killed himself.

he had schizophrenia and he shot himself at home. And I was at home and my parents were at home in his bedroom with him when he did it to their complete shock and surprise. He, oh, horrifying. Went over to apartment, pulled out a gun, pointed it, and pulled the trigger right in front of him. so we kind of went through that whole tragedy that was like a nightmare of that whole thing. 

And so when my daughter did it, you know, I, was always concerned that it was, it was a plausible situation. Sure. A plausible end for her, because there was history in our family that it did actually end that way for some people. You know, so I was always very worried about it. That was part of the reason we took the NAMI class, was to try to, learn how we could prevent something like that from happening, 

[00:22:37] Angela Kennecke: I feel like we all as parents wanna prevent this. What we could see is a possibility of happening. In my daughter's case, I saw, her drug use as only leading to pain.

Yeah. I told you a little bit about there was cutting when she was younger. I had taken her to psychologists and things like that, you know, and I just think it's so hard when you can't help your child and you can't save your child. And I think about the trauma in your family with your brother's death like that.

I mean, how horrifying trauma for you, trauma for your parents. And then to have something like this happen I just admire you so much talking about it because I think it would be easy to completely shut down. 

[00:23:15] Jim Nelson: Yeah. Well, my mom was really helpful, I can say that much, and my wife, but my mom had a unique perspective because she'd been through the exact same thing with my brother at almost the exact same age.

there were so many parallels. It was just really crazy and You know, my mom had found a way to get through that. And for me it wasn't as big a deal, just like for my son, but for a parent it really is a big deal.

And so the parents go through a lot. And my mom went through all of that and, you know, eventually came to terms with it. And we had discussed that a number of times long before Miranda was probably even born, this.

[00:23:54] Angela Kennecke: yeah. How was your mother able to come to terms with it?

Because, that would be so hard. And I, I do think you're right, siblings react differently than parents. It's not that it doesn't affect their lives. I'm sure your brother's suicide affected your entire life but you have your own life to live as a sibling or as a parent. We are responsible for our children, right.

Even our adult children. That's how we feel. And so, yes, it's different for sure. But what was your mother's key to? maybe reframing what had happened with your brother or, to go on to survive and even thrive. I'm taking it. 

[00:24:27] Jim Nelson: Yeah. She has done really well. I guess, you know, in, that particular case, he had schizophrenia.

Schizophrenia is a horribly debilitating disease. People that really have it cannot function in society. They just can't. And there are the medications, especially back in those days, were very limited. I think they're still very limited. There's not a whole lot that can be done to really help that disease.

So he had medications that he was prescribed. It was lithium. found after he died that he had not been taking the lithium for about two years. Because he had all the pills. He'd just been taking the pills and putting 'em in this bag and putting the bag in this drawer. So we found the bag filled with lithium pills.

So he was kind of faking us out to think he had been taking it, you know? But he didn't like them because they made him really tired and that type of thing. But, you know, he realized, and this same thing I think was true with Miranda, they realized they were going to have a very difficult time with life.

You know, they wanted to be normal. They hung out with friends that were normal. They wanted to be normal like that too. And they saw how how much of a struggle that was gonna be for them, and they just couldn't find a way out in doing it. In fact, my brother, he had a job which he then lost, but he told us that he had been working that job for like a year, year and a half.

And he did not. He just went out every night and did something, hung out somewhere and then came back and pretended, you know, to my parents that he'd been working and he told them all of that on his very last day, right before he ended it. All that, you know, basically he was having all those troubles and I think Miranda could see she was having trouble and that maybe she wasn't gonna be able to manage her situation.

She didn't know what. As she got older, what was gonna happen to her? What happened after we died? And my brother worried about the same things. 

[00:26:30] Angela Kennecke: It does make me very sad though, and I wish we had more innovations more ways to treat, yeah. Mental illness and the various forms of mental illness.

[00:26:38] Jim Nelson: But i, I guess one thing that happened to me, I guess you were asking how did I cope? So I would say, you know, this all happened in May of 2021. I went from a personality where I, I had hardly ever shed a tear my entire life. I just was kind of stoic in my expressions and how I handled myself.

And then I turned into this person that was crying like every single day, like big, real, out loud, you know, things for like a month, you know? Something changed my body. Maybe the way my hormones work or something, I don't know. But by December I had a physical and I was discovered to have some medical issues and I had high blood pressure.

 There was a suspected heart issue. I'm slender. I was 170 pounds and five 11, you know, not real heavy. And ultimately I ended up Going through a lot of stuff. I had open heart surgery last year. A double bypass cabbage, you know, the full zipper club surgery. And my focus became immediately my health at that point.

And I, reflecting on it, I could see I was kind of depressed at about December timeframe and this actually pulled me out of it. I mean, I don't know, it sounds really crazy, but. My focus on my health, all of a sudden I changed my diet completely. I started exercising like a madman and all this stuff leading up to my surgery.

Then I had the surgery, went through the cardiac rehab, and all this stuff, and my mind was just a hundred percent on, getting healthier. And that distraction I think, really was beneficial to me. 

[00:28:23] Angela Kennecke: I do believe in the mind body connection. So when you're going through a traumatic event like that and you're feeling things you've never felt before in your life because that's what the less child is it can certainly affect your health.

Yeah, certainly. And in, in my case, I felt like it affected more my emotional health and my brain. I was likening it to a brain injury, like, like a traumatic brain injury almost. And so, right. I think. if you don't take care of yourself. And we see many people who suffer a great loss in our society who end up, their health either gets really bad and they die, or they turn to substances themselves and they die.

And I've seen that over and over again. So you do have to make a conscious choice. If you want to live and, and not everybody wants to live after something like this happens, right. Which is hard to say out loud, but it's the truth. Yeah. And so to make a conscious choice to be healthy, I mean, you had a broken heart, so it doesn't surprise me that you would've heart issues even though you weren't necessarily a candidate.

For them. 

[00:29:25] Jim Nelson: Yeah, I'm sure it raised my blood pressure and I didn't know that. And honestly, I think it's been for the better. I don't, it sounds weird, but a big distraction like that really helped. I'm back into my old hobbies and interests now that I wasn't interested in back then. The passage of time really seemed to help for me, I think. 

[00:29:43] Angela Kennecke: what about your relationship with your wife? Because everybody grieves differently. Yeah. 

[00:29:48] Jim Nelson: She's more of a do it yourself, griever. I'd say I'm a little bit more out there. You know, I've done these podcasts and things like that. And I set up the foundation that we put together, stuff like that. She's more kind of on her own.

She really likes to do uh, Facebook groups. There's a lot of really good Facebook groups for people who've had kids that have committed suicide or died of drug overdoses or whatever. And she would read those and she got a lot out of it. She read a lot of books. She's quite a reader 

that's what really I think helped her. She started journaling herself and doing a journal every night. She still does that, and I think all of that stuff, you know, she found her own way. But in terms of our marriage, I'd say it's, I. You know, at least as close as it ever been. We're doing really good that way. There's no problem. 

[00:30:36] Angela Kennecke: That's really great because sometimes people can, blame the other parent or just feel so bad or not understand the way the other person grieves, and it sounds to me like you have great respect for the different ways that you and your wife grieve.

So, so that's great to hear and I wanna hear more about the foundation as well. Tell me, What you're doing in Miranda's memory? 

[00:30:55] Jim Nelson: Well, the, foundation is pretty simple, you know, so in June, you know, almost immediately after her, her death I started thinking about setting up a foundation and so we call it the Miranda Leigh Nelson Foundation.

 So really what it amounts to is you can put money in it and the money can be invested and then the money is sent out as grants over a period of time.

And the idea was to try to kind of make it be like a, life simulator. A little bit of the kind of things that Miranda would've done had she been alive, so maybe for 20 years. It can do things in the areas of mental health and animal welfare, which were her two, self-proclaimed passions.

And so that's what we're doing. We're making grants to those kind of charities. Each year we've done it two years now, six charities each year. Three in mental health and three for animal welfare. And. So that's what we're doing. And we've, surprisingly, we've gotten a lot of friends have contributed, but it's just private foundation, so there's no solicitation 

[00:31:57] Angela Kennecke: Is it helping? Is it helping you in your grief, do you think? 

[00:31:59] Jim Nelson: Yeah, because it's her, uh, name is up all over the place and. Just a good reminder of her and we feel like we're kind of doing something. There's not much else you can do, so you're doing something, but that's a bit more ambitious than what we didn't have the background and the, so forth to be able to do that. We're doing what we can do and. 

[00:32:19] Angela Kennecke: Yeah. Well that's, that's all you have to do. I always say to people, you don't have to go out and start a nonprofit with all this big mission and, do a podcast and do all these things. You don't have to do all of that. You just have to do one thing that resonates in your heart. Mm-hmm. That you feel helps with your grief and helps to pay tribute to your loved one's life. And you've also, I appreciate you writing up Miranda's story from our new website more than just a number.org, where we have a memorial Yeah. For people who've died from overdose or fentanyl poisoning. So I love seeing Miranda's beautiful face on there. So thank you for doing that as well. 

[00:32:55] Jim Nelson: Yeah, it is great to be able to do that. You know, anything like this to me where I'm reflecting on her and I'm even preparing, like today I got out and kind of sat down and collected my thoughts on all things. Miranda and all of that stuff is good for me. I think, you know, even doing a podcast like this, I'll feel better tomorrow because I did this today just because it kind of refreshes a lot of my good memories about her and. how we dealt with it and, and I'm happy with all that, so. 

[00:33:25] Angela Kennecke: Well, it's great you can say that because I think a lot of us as parents go back and we second guess, did we do? Or should we have done this at this time? Or should we have said this? And there's a lot of what ifs and If you can come to a point of peace. That you know that you did everything within your power with what you knew at the time because there were things you didn't know. There were things Miranda was keeping from you. There were lots of things Emily was keeping from me. Lots. And I was doing the best I could with the information I had at the time. And whenever I do kind of go into that, I call it a pit. Mm-hmm. Of saying if only, or I should've, would've, could've, or I regret. Or if, you know, I should've done this, I should've said this.

And if I start going down that rabbit hole and it's a horrible rabbit hole to get into, I have to remind myself that I didn't know everything. And with what I did know. I'm an educated person. I used all the resources available to me, and you did the same, you know, and I love it to hear you say that, you know, that, you know that.

[00:34:22] Jim Nelson: Yeah. Well, I, I guess I've just come to terms with it. I mean, like I said, Miranda was really uh, careful about her marijuana usage. She had this little thing that you could breathe into. First of all, she, she did it through a vape so there wasn't smoke, and then she had this little filter that she would breathe out through that would take the smell out.

 We didn't even know these things existed, but we found it in her room, you know? Right. And so we figured out this is what she was doing. And so I kind of liken the whole thing. It's, it's a little bit like yeah, I'm not a military person, but it sort of feels to me like if you're a military commander and you're in a battle and you, you know, you're fighting this war and then you lose your battle or whatever.

It's not really your fault because you were doing the best you could with what you had. You know, your weapons and your strategy, and you were anticipating what they were doing. And of course they had secrets and they were doing their own thing that you didn't know, and maybe they had this secret weapon or whatever, you know, and you ultimately lost the battle.

That doesn't make you a bad person for. Having that outcome. And I sort of feel that that's sort of how it was with Miranda. You know, we were trying to do what we could do, but there were limitations on what we could do and what we knew. and I think even the most educated expert person may not have been able to figure this out.

[00:35:37] Angela Kennecke: So, I love hearing you say that because I think those words will help so many people listening to our podcast. I know you have that analytical mind. You worked in a very analytical field. And so I love you putting it that way because I don't think many people have put it that way, you know, in their own minds.

And I think you've helped so many people just by saying that alone, because you're right. 

[00:35:59] Jim Nelson: Yeah. I mean, I think you have to just come to terms with this stuff, otherwise you will never heal. And you know, right. What is it? Life is for the living. You've gotta move forward and there's life out there.

There's good things you can do. Fun to be, had people to educate and whatever, and, and you just have to keep moving forward. You can't give up, you know? 

[00:36:21] Angela Kennecke: right. As long as we're here, our hearts are beating and we're breathing. We're here for a reason. Right. We're here and we need to live, because we lost a loved one doesn't mean that we are supposed to die, you know?

Whether that be emotionally or just to give up on life. I don't necessarily mean literally. But you know, I just think that it's hard though 

[00:36:41] Jim Nelson: , a, another thing that I think about is I knew this was gonna be a struggle right after it happened.

You know, you can read and look at data and how many. Divorces follow something like this or people fall apart or whatever. And my wife and I took it very seriously. You know, methodically, we tried to figure out how to get through this and we put a lot of effort into it. And so I think whoever's going through this has to be willing to do that.

 It's not easy. 

[00:37:09] Angela Kennecke: Conscious decisions to you know, how you want your life to go, how you want your relationship to go and all of those things. Exactly. Well thank you so much for everything that you're doing.

Thank you for being a guest on the podcast. I love the words of wisdom you had to say. Miranda just looks like a sweet, sensitive and beautiful soul, and I wish I could have known her but I'm so glad to know you. 

[00:37:31] Jim Nelson: Oh, great. Thank you, Angela.

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[00:37:33] Angela Kennecke: Thank you for tuning into this episode of Grieving Out Loud. If you wanna learn more and support our mission, just head over to our website at Emily's Hope dot charity. We have all kinds of resources, ways to get involved and opportunities to make a real impact. As we mentioned earlier, you can read more about Miranda's story on our new website more than just a number.org, and we've also included information about the foundation named after Miranda in the show notes for this episode.

Now, before we wrap things up, we wanna say a big thank you for listening. Your support means the world to us. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Wonnenberg King and Anna Fey.

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