(MUSIC UP!) ​

[00:00:00] Edward Krumpotich: My stepfather entered the picture when I was 10 years old. He was a NFL football player. My grandmother actually played center field for the Rockford Peaches, the 

uh, 

league of their own story and my uncle's in the NFL Hall of Fame. So I always felt like I had to measure up somehow. I felt like there was always something to prove to somebody, and unfortunately I became that best little boy in the world and it really stemmed from that internal insecurity that I carried with me 

[00:00:29] Angela Kennecke: That insecurity is what Edward Krumpotich believes. Let him down the dangerous path of illicit drugs.

[00:00:37] Edward Krumpotich: From teacher of the year to homeless on the streets with plastic bags and I mean, for years.

So I walked the streets in Minneapolis for off and on, in between treatment spells 

in and out of shelters for about six to seven years. I would be frost bitten, no joke, frostbite on the hands everywhere.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:00:53] Angela Kennecke:  I'm Angela Kennecke and this is grieving Out Loud, a podcast focus on increasing awareness about our nation's drug epidemic. By doing so, we can hopefully reduce the stigma associated with substance use disorder, prevent people from experimenting with drugs, and encourage more individuals to seek treatment.

Join me today as I sit down with Edward Krumpotich who has been in and out of treatment about 50 times. You heard me right? 50. 

He is now a passionate advocate for better laws and policies surrounding substance use and harm reduction. I am so excited to hear his story and talk about his journey to becoming a powerful voice for change.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:01:37] Angela Kennecke: Eddie, I am so excited to talk to you about your story because I first heard just a little bit of it when I was testifying on a bill in the South Dakota house and then senate regarding legalizing fentanyl testing strips. And I heard you testify to legalize fentanyl testing strips. Cause I know you do a lot of advocacy work, but you started telling a little bit about your story during that testimony and I just thought, I got to talk to this guy.

[00:02:04] Edward Krumpotich: Yeah, it has been quite a ride, and I'm sure you'll hear today how the disease of addiction lives, both, in self and in others. And unfortunately for both me and my family my disease and my behavior in it took us down a very dark road. But today, I'm blessed to be able to give back in a space that I know well. Right. And I'm, excited to be here. 

[00:02:25] Angela Kennecke: Well, thank you Eddie. Let's just start from the beginning. What kind of kid were you growing up? Where did you grow up? What kinds of things were you into? 

[00:02:33] Edward Krumpotich: Yeah, so I was the oddball kid in the family. I was the loving, oddball gay kid in the family, right? So I grew up in a family of dentists. They were amazing humans on a little hobby farm in central Maryland on the East coast, and. I hear from other addicts a lot. I did not feel like I fit in. It was almost a family of both who the men I looked up to and the women that I looked up to. And for some reason I always cast a shadow. Over myself. My brother kind of beat up the bullies when I was younger and my sister was the great student. I was the creative, artistic and fun one, and it almost seemed like I needed to have fun all the time in order to survive. And that's really what I remember from my childhood. 

I know that my family system in the early parts of my life was rather good. It seemed like the 1950s life. 

[00:03:25] Angela Kennecke: You think that sort of deep seated insecurity or a feeling of not fitting in is a common thread with people who end up suffering from substance use disorder? Because I could see a little bit of that in my daughter from the time she was a small child and there was like a little bit of a insecurity. I don't know how to describe it. It was just sort of innate. 

[00:03:45] Edward Krumpotich: mm-hmm. 

[00:03:46] Angela Kennecke: Do you know what I'm talking about? 

[00:03:47] Edward Krumpotich: I relate to that Angela so wholeheartedly. But I wanna say sorry for the loss of your daughter Emily. I will say that that is a good way of putting it. There was something different about me, and insecurity may be a good way of putting it, but I always felt like I needed to measure up. Somehow, right? 

My attachments in life were completely mishandled. It felt like either I was overly attached and I was people pleasing. On the one end or on the opposite end, I was angry and separate and isolated. 

I just didn't seem to have those stable relationships with anybody. I felt like there was always something to prove to somebody, and unfortunately I became that best little boy in the. world And it really stemmed from that internal insecurity that I carried with me, and I think like Emily from very, very early on in my life. 

[00:04:34] Angela Kennecke: Did you have trauma in your childhood or things go horribly wrong? 

[00:04:38] Edward Krumpotich: I had a lot of trauma in my childhood. No secrets in my family. We went through a major divorce.

My stepfather entered the picture when I was 10 years old. He was a NFL football player. My grandmother actually played center field for the Rockford Peaches, the league of their own story and my uncle's in the NFL Hall of Fame. So I always felt like I had to measure up somehow. Right.

[00:04:59] Angela Kennecke: That's a pretty high bar. That's a pretty high bar for any that's not, most human beings are not in the N F L. 

[00:05:04] Edward Krumpotich: They were human to me, but it was how I perceived their light, right? So I perceived their goodness as needing to be something more than I was for some reason. When my parents divorced, it was nasty. So my sister stayed with my mom. She disowned my dad, and unfortunately they haven't seen each other in 25 years. She was about 13 years old. My mom disowned my brother.

He was about 13, 14 years old. So the, the family completely split apart. They haven't seen each other in about 25 years. I decided that I wanted to, hold on. I wanted to be the kid who didn't let go and grateful today that I can have them in my family. But when you don't let go. You don't learn to let go.

And so the disease of addiction really started its roots in the idea that unfortunately the little Eddie just didn't know how to take care of himself. I didn't know how to let other people go. 

[00:05:57] Angela Kennecke: Well, it's a horrible situation for a child to be put into, not just a divorce, but to have a family so divided where people are taking sides and icing out. Completely alienating the other parent or the children and the, the other children aren't talking to a certain parent. That's a horrible position to be put in. 

[00:06:17] Edward Krumpotich: It was tough. It was tough. We were in front of the judge, decent amounts. I had to testify and testify against family members as a little kid, right? And so um, I felt like it was my fault.

I grew up thinking it was my fault and more so I thought that, and I was told so Angela many times. So what I know today is it's not my fault what happened, right? That shame part of me holds onto that because that kid would not wanna let go. My stepdad shot himself when I was in 11th grade.

If you've ever watched that movie by Will Smith concussion, he lived right. However, he most likely has c t e an encephalopathy that is in the brain that's, you can't diagnose until postmortem. But the two highest symptomologies are suicide and addiction, and he suffered from both. 

[00:07:01] Angela Kennecke: Wow. So at what age did you start experimenting with substances. What was your substance of choice? 

[00:07:08] Edward Krumpotich: Yeah, so if you were doing it, I was doing it. That was kind of how I looked at it. Right. So I would say from an early age, my early inkling was to do the normal high school kind of kid routine. I wanted to go to parties and just fit in, so I drank, right.

And drinking was okay. It didn't feel like it was anything more, but it was that undertone of I needed to drink because I needed to be with them. Sort of thing. It wasn't until about the age of 19 that I found my love and my drug of choice, which was methamphetamine because a lot of the people in the community, the gay community were using that and having sex. And that became kind of my way of communication with my identity. 

[00:07:47] Angela Kennecke: I just recently interviewed a man in his thirties who suffered from. Alcohol addiction and he didn't start drinking until he was a little older, also gay. And he said when he came out, like his family accepted him, people were okay with him. It was something he couldn't accept within himself. I don't know if you find that to be true within the gay community, that sort of self. Stigmatization. That obviously comes from a wider cultural issue, but it isn't so much the people close to them are being mean to them or are disowning them because of their sexuality. It's more just a general feeling of like, I'm not okay. This isn't okay. 

[00:08:26] Edward Krumpotich: There is no doubt, right? So when I came out to my parents, it was a difficult process. However, on the outside there was a certain amount of love, right? I didn't feel that initial bump that I would say some of my friends did. But there obviously was some reservations.

 My family still has reservations about being gay internally. it was being framed in society that I had a difficult time with. And to be honest with Angela, it's an awareness that lives so deep within me that I, it's hard to find. I knew that I hated myself at times because I was gay. 

When I was in high school, I would go around to girls and I'd go, come on Eddie. You can do it. You can do it. Be attracted to this girl. Be attracted to this girl. And then a guy would walk by and I'd go, oh, hey. And I'd go, no, go ahead. Please don't. 

[00:09:08] Angela Kennecke: You tried to conform that's probably common, right? 

[00:09:11] Edward Krumpotich: I went back in the closet after coming out to teach high school kids, so I was a high school history teacher for many years. Yeah. And I decided to go back in the closet to hide my identity because who I was was not good enough.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:09:23] Angela Kennecke: eddie's struggle with feeling inadequate and unworthy, let him down a dark path. He began experimenting with meth at just 19.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:09:31] Edward Krumpotich: so I was in undergrad at the time. I left my undergrad because I didn't get into the fraternity that I liked. I felt rejected. So I went to Maryland and then I went back to the, college that I was at originally. I tried first at University of Maryland and it was with a guy, and I was like, whoa, this is incredible. And I remember that feeling like, geez, this is just knock your socks off, sort of thing. And that was really my starting to it, 

and it became a monthly sort of habit. There wasn't a ton of what I would call habituals yet behind it, but I began teaching high school students while using substances on the weekend. 

[00:10:06] Angela Kennecke: It's probably not that unusual. I mean, I have talked to other teachers. I talked to a Kentucky's teacher of the year who hid her alcohol addiction. Unbelievable to me. She's teacher of the year, now she's not teaching any longer, but I know it happens, right? It happens. happens in every profession, in every walk of life. 

[00:10:22] Edward Krumpotich: And wouldn't you know I was a teacher of the year as well, 

[00:10:24] Angela Kennecke: you were, 

[00:10:25] Edward Krumpotich: yes. I was Frederick County's friends of Catholic Educations teacher of the year when I was uh, 24 or 25, I think.

So the big advantage of having a predisposed shame kid right, is that when I look at students, I was able to see me in every one of. Right. And so I gave my all to each of those students. When I look back in my teaching career, that was the thing that I was strongest at classroom management and speaking to little Eddies around the room, right?

There were a lot of ancillary things that I wasn't great at, but I was teacher of the year because people were like, man, this guy actually cares about me. And I did. I did. It was just, I didn't care enough about myself. 

[00:11:03] Angela Kennecke: I am guessing that the use of meth and any other substances escalated at some point then.

[00:11:11] Edward Krumpotich: It did. So I took a hiatus when I had my first partner. So I was teaching, I moved to a public school at that time. I got my first partner in Washington, dc it felt like a fairytale for me, right? It was one of those things that I had always wanted, but I saw myself becoming jealous. So between you and I and whoever's listening, obviously I was 300 and about 40 pounds at this time. So I had a large weight issue. This person loved me for the size that I was, 

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:11:38] Angela Kennecke: during this so-called fairytale, Eddie managed to quit meth and only occasionally drink. But sadly, that didn't last long. After just a few months, Eddie was struggling again with both his mental health and substance use disorder. 

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:11:53] Edward Krumpotich: I could not give myself to him. Each time I tried to be honest with him. All I had was jealousy, rage, internalized hatred for what he was doing. He would cheat on me all the time. And Angela, I would do something. Oh, it's not a big deal, but I'm gonna go on my phone and try and find out what he's doing so I could never vocalize my pain.

[00:12:13] Angela Kennecke: So it sounds like it was an unhealthy relationship. 

[00:12:16] Edward Krumpotich: Terribly. Terribly.

[00:12:17] Angela Kennecke: If this person's cheating on you and you're feeling bad about yourself and you're overweight, I mean, very unhealthy place to be. 

[00:12:24] Edward Krumpotich: It was a terribly unhealthy relationship. My friends and my family knew it, but we were in love some way, right?

There was a love amongst us Somehow we were together for a year and a half. At the end of the relationship, I decided to get lap band surgery, so I wanted to lose the weight. My mom was really encouraging of them.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:12:39] Angela Kennecke: now, you may think after undergoing surgery, Eddie would've been motivated to adopt a healthier lifestyle. However, it was actually after his surgery that his drug use took a turn for the worse, and he spiraled out of control. 

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:12:55] Edward Krumpotich: This was not the only thing that was going on during that time. However, what I will say is that once the relationship ended, things really began to cascade out of control. I ended up being diagnosed hiv. Very quickly afterwards, I thought I was invincible to the world, right? But my addiction really began to slide 

[00:13:14] Angela Kennecke: and the H I V, has it been under control? 

[00:13:17] Edward Krumpotich: Yeah, I'm very lucky. So I almost died from the early infection. Rare as it comes. No joke. So my mom and I had a very difficult time getting back together to a place where we understood each other. I was teaching high school. At that time, and unfortunately I got really sick. I didn't know what was happening, but I had this internal feeling that I was HIV sort of sick.

As the months went on, I started getting sicker and my students said, you know, Mr. Krumpe, you don't look very good. So eventually I went to the hospital, found out that I had h I v. It was way worse than that. I had. Spine and large intestine issues as a result of the early infection. I was in the hospital for weeks but my mom came into my life like a bullet out of a train, right?

She showed up at the door and became my best advocate. After that, it had been many, many years.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:14:06] Angela Kennecke: While Eddie was extremely thankful to have a renewed relationship with his mother, he still couldn't get a handle on his substance use disorder. It only continued to get worse even after almost dying from H I V related infections.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:14:21] Edward Krumpotich: This is addiction, right? This is the insanity of addiction. I use three days outta the hospital after almost dying and losing my legs.

And that is, Insane. Right. So I started Escalating my binge use, not going to work, calling out of work losing my relationships, moving away. And then I started seeing myself become really sick and I decided to move to the state of Minnesota to go to my first treatment at Pride Institute. And this was when I was about 26 to 27 years old.

[00:14:48] Angela Kennecke: So this was a while ago. 

[00:14:49] Edward Krumpotich: Yes. 

[00:14:49] Angela Kennecke: That you went to your first treatment? 

[00:14:51] Edward Krumpotich: Yes. 

[00:14:51] Angela Kennecke: And. You've been through, I, I know from doing a little research, many treatments. So let's talk about that. 

[00:14:56] Edward Krumpotich: Holy, 

[00:14:57] Angela Kennecke: you go to your first treatment, I'm sure you're optimistic, right? Like you're ready for a change you go to treatment and how did it. 

[00:15:05] Edward Krumpotich: Great. When you're the best little boy in the world, you know what you can count on.

You can count on being everybody's friend. You can count on completing it, and you can count online when you're in there and not even knowing it. So I went to treatment wanting to stop using drugs. I went to my first sober house wanting to be sober. I did. It was in there. There was something much, much deeper, this shame response that I had not connected with in the slightest yet.

I had a counselor from Pride look me in the face and outpatient, and she's said, Eddie, you have the worst shame I've ever seen. That's what she told me, My ego, part of me goes, wow. The worst shame you've ever seen. Wow. What is that like? That's like a compliment, right? I had no idea, Angela, how sick I was.

None. About 40 to 50 treatments. Later I realized what she was trying to tell me. She was trying to tell me that I was in some severe trouble. 

[00:15:58] Angela Kennecke: 40 to 50. Let's, let's break that down for a second. I don't know if I've ever talked to somebody who's been in 40 to 50 treatments. What kinds of treatments, who paid for all of this? How did that happen? Tell me a little bit about that, because that's unbelievable. No, I'm, I mean, I'm grateful you're still here talking to me. 

[00:16:15] Edward Krumpotich: Yeah. 

[00:16:15] Angela Kennecke: In some ways I can't believe it. 

[00:16:17] Edward Krumpotich: Yeah, I should have died a long time ago. Right. So from teacher of the year to homeless on the streets with plastic bags and I mean, for years. So I walked the streets in Minneapolis for off and on, in between treatment spells for in and out of shelters for about six to seven years. Right. And this was, I would be frost bitten, no joke, frostbite on the hands everywhere. sometimes I went into treatment and I didn't want to be sober during those times.

I needed to have a roof over my head. I will say this, that the state of Minnesota paid for those treatments, right? , we have a system here that we want people to go into treatment. And so I was able through public assistance to get into treatment and talk about a state that saved my.

[00:16:56] Angela Kennecke: what finally worked? What was it? What was the turning point for you? 

[00:17:00] Edward Krumpotich: There's not one thing although I'm a believer in a sort of principle, the bio psychosocial models of recovery. This is for anything Angela, in our lives. Whether it's cancer or the way that we have it formed to life, everything has a bio component to it.

How we're made and the cards that we're delt. That psycho component is the way that we think about ourselves. Those motors internally that go, I'm enough. I'm these things. That thing waved. Bye-bye to me a long time ago. So I've worked on that one for a long time. The social part is we are born to connect with others, right? We are born to do it. 

What I was missing initially was I had that component of social. I didn't interact well, but at least I was there, that psycho component. It was not registering. The key for me was right here I was born and grew into somebody who had anxiety and adhd. I was an anxiety and ADHD kid, right?

So I was bouncing off the walls and wouldn't you know, I decided to ask my doctor for pharmacologic help one day, and we together decided to put me on a stimula. In order to treat a stimulant use disorder, so it wasn't until I started taking stimulants in order to get me to homeostasis that some of that thinking could then permeate my new consciousness.

I needed to have the very same chemical compound that almost killed me. 

[00:18:26] Angela Kennecke: Wow. Like a Adderall type thing or something. A drug like that. 

[00:18:29] Edward Krumpotich: You got it, right. You got it. 

[00:18:30] Angela Kennecke: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:31] Edward Krumpotich: That's where harm reduction came in. 

[00:18:32] Angela Kennecke: So that explains to me maybe why meth was so appealing to you, though it probably made you feel a lot better if you have adhd, because stimulants do help people. With adhd. 

[00:18:43] Edward Krumpotich: Angela, I'm just gonna give you snaps right now because this is as simple as it gets for Addictionology, right? This is as simple as it gets as a kid. When you have adhd, you have a depletion or your reservoir of dopamine. Is lower than normal. So what do you do in order to counteract? As an ADHD kid, we find fun things to do, so it seems like you're always trying to have fun.

That's a sickness. What's happening in the brain is it's trying to pair off behavior and dopamine, but there's just not enough. So what happens is that you need to have a lot of fun in order to get it to normal. 

I decided when I was 15 years old, I was diagnosed with ADHD by a doctor and. Listen, he told, I was talking to my dad. Your son has a terrible case of adhd and I told him, sure. Is anything Uhuh? I'm not taking anything for it. I love my brain, but you are correct. It was what's wrong. My dopaminergic system was wrong and eventually, I believe this to be true today. Cause I'm grateful for my addiction. My spirit found methamphetamine because if it wasn't for that, my ADHD was so bad, all it was doing was turning me into shame.

[00:19:52] Angela Kennecke: I just heard you say you're grateful for your addiction. I don't know if I've ever heard anybody say that before, that I've talked to and I've interviewed and talked to a lot of people, Eddie, so explain that to me. 

[00:20:02] Edward Krumpotich: I mean, I am more grateful today than I could possibly imagine for. Meeting the people and finding a spirit within me that is able to give back about something that I care about.

Right? I don't know many other diseases, and this is true for mental health and addiction. So the only cure, there's one, one cure for this disease, and it doesn't exist across society for its to a certain degree, is that I must go in in order to come out. Very few people get the opportunity to dive into their own brains, their own consciousness and their own awareness. And see some of the, the most tormented things, right? So they call addiction many times, like the biggest torment of all of the diseases. 

It has been a blessing to be able to get to know myself that way because if I wasn't able to go in, I couldn't come out. And I'm so grateful that I am able to use that knowledge to help other people today, because if I wasn't doing it, who would?

[00:21:01] Angela Kennecke: Yeah, and you have the experience, you basically have , the background to do all of that. But you started to tell me though, that the A D H D medications, pharmacological medications are helping you. What else? 

[00:21:13] Edward Krumpotich: Yeah, so I, it an A A A C M a Smart Recovery. I've done dharma recovery. I'm working my steps for the very first time, right? So finding a space of community was hugely important for me. Hugely important. Some community that worked for me. I live in Grand Rapids because it took me away from some triggering mechanisms. 

I also realized I had to humble myself. So I started my journey of my present day recovery waiting. And if you have a rejection issue, just go wait tables for a living. Because I was cry. I would cry my eyes out sitting at the register because it was so hard to go to a table and hear them go, I don't like my steak. And I go, no, I can't believe I screwed up. That's what it was like.

[00:21:53] Angela Kennecke: Well also it occurs to me though, there is a lot of substance use disorder in the service industry itself. so you're by waiting tables, you're also exposing yourself to others who are most likely many others suffering from substance use disorder. 

[00:22:07] Edward Krumpotich: Yes, and that's not only true, but in my case it was empowering because what it was is, is I had alcohol right in front of my face each day, but I made the decision each day to be in recovery.

And so I was able to participate in activities without fear. So what methamphetamine? Is, this is as true as it comes when you grow up and you invite shame into your life somehow, cuz that's what happens. It just burrows within us. We only see life, it feels like through that lens. 

The real key to addiction is realizing that each of us who are addicted have found a substance that removes it. It removes it. That is how insidious this disease is, is because normal people have some amounts of shame. They're okay, but ours is so tanked full those substances just go boom, and it shows us what we think is light for the first time.

[00:23:00] Angela Kennecke: Right. It's a trap though. It's a trick for sure. I mean, yes. People feel better. There's a reason why people use drugs and are alcohol because it makes people feel better. temporarily, that is just, it's like a big huge trap. Right. And then you're stuck. And that's everybody's story. Who. Addicted. Right. So I'm so glad that you're doing so well. And then you've taken what you've learned through this whole journey. How long have you been in recovery now? 

[00:23:25] Edward Krumpotich: In truth? The last time I used meth was on Christmas of last year. I had a year and three months and decided to go out five times between September and December. And it was a disaster. It was a disaster. So currently I'm actually like 50 something days. That year and three months before that was the longest that I had ever had in the state or ever in my life. And so when I found the bottom, it just was able to speak to me that I'd had enough.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:23:53] Angela Kennecke: sadly, relapse is part of many people's story. Research shows that between 40 to 60% of people with substance use disorder experience a relapse at some point. It's especially alarming when it comes to alcohol and opioids. Some studies indicate that up to 80% of people who struggle with alcohol addiction may relapse. While that number jumps to 80 to 95% of those who struggle with opioids during the first year after treatment, unfortunately, relapse can be extremely dangerous. Drug manufacturers are now putting fentanyl in all kinds of illicit drugs, which means even one use could be life threatening. Plus, when someone is in recovery, their drug tolerance is lower. So if they take the same dose they did before, they're more likely to overdose.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

 (Commerial Break - visit www.morethanjustanumber.org) 

[00:24:47] Angela Kennecke: So how do you explain relapse 

[00:24:48] Edward Krumpotich: relapses? It's as simple as this. I'm gonna use diabetes as an example, right? So diabetes is actually really simple. Diabetes is a. That's all diabetes is, right? It's a dopaminergic craving and then an attachment to sugar or a, a, a disposition that gives somebody that, right?

Relapse is rather simple. Can you expect a diabetic's blood sugar to stay at around 90 to 120 for the rest of their life? It's naturally cyclical. The difference is, is that the organ that is affected is the pancreas, So the pancreas goes like this, the blood sugar goes up and down and up and down.

Let's take addiction addiction's. Disease lives in the brain, so picture that pancreas now is a brain. When your waves go like this, that's like not asking somebody who's eating every day to not have a blood sugar change. The chances of somebody staying sober with that amount of change in the.

Is minuscule. So relapse is just decoding those attachments as they come up and they go down. They come up and they go down. Because when the brain is the disease organ, it is one of the hardest to detach. 

[00:25:53] Angela Kennecke: And I've heard it takes a couple of years for the brain to recover from substances such as meth. Do you feel any lasting effects from your use? Can you tell like other times where you're like, oh, this is from the years of doing math. How many years would you say you did it? 

[00:26:09] Edward Krumpotich: No, I'm close to 20. Close to 20. 

[00:26:12] Angela Kennecke: Oh, that's a, that's a long time. 

[00:26:14] Edward Krumpotich: Oh my gosh. Yeah. You ain't lying about that. It is a long, long time.

When it comes to things like our dopaminergic receptors, right? We literally burn them out, right? Science says it's about 18 months before we can get what we're going to get. And regrow those receptors. Here's the thing is that now once you've regrown many of those receptors at around 18 months, many people are still left with their bio.

So the brain is gonna do the best it can, but you've put on now addiction. And then you have your mental health. So what happens in recovery, like you mentioned, is I'll get anhedonic, I will get depressed, I'll get anxious I'll have sleep trouble. And one of the things that can sometimes be a big issue is dreams.

It's a good trigger warning for me, but when my dreams are nightmares, it can be really tough. But that's just how our neurotransmitters are rewiring themselves in our brain. Each little rewire comes with at its own symptom.

[00:27:10] Angela Kennecke: And so do you feel though like your brain has been healing despite relapse? 

[00:27:15] Edward Krumpotich: Yeah, absolutely. I can't even begin to describe to you the things that I've been able to learn in harm reduction and in substance use disorder treatment .

So when that thought of wellness comes up and it's the first thought and I go. I actually think highly of myself. That is a new pathway. That's neuroplasticity right there, right? When we see, have you ever experienced, Angela? Maybe you can tell me. Just a thought that comes in. You go, wow, that's nice.

Can you remember a time that, that you were like, 

[00:27:41] Angela Kennecke: sure, sure. less time in grief after you lose somebody, but it eventually comes back. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:27:47] Edward Krumpotich: That is your brain. No. Rewiring itself and growing and learning, right? And I wanna say this, so I lost my brother to a heroin overdose. so I, 

[00:27:57] Angela Kennecke: oh, 

[00:27:58] Edward Krumpotich: I empathize with you as well. But I had to watch my stepmom watch her son die in her arms. And what she did in comparison to what I did, she was like, Right. She was a tank of empathy and a tank getting through that disease. I had so much admiration for a mom who lost her daughter because I was able to watch her.

And when I was in my own state of use, I would say, how in the world did she do that? How? And so I just wanna give you so much credit because our disease is the one that unfortunately perpetrates on our. It perpetrates, right? My behaviors are the ones that perpetrate and they love us unconditionally.

They love me unconditionally, right? And that's where that disconnect and that shame was so hard. So I just wanna give you so much kudos for your recovery. And just say thank you. 

[00:28:51] Angela Kennecke: Well, thank you for saying that. You're absolutely right. My daughter's behavior and her changes and her affected every member of our family and it, we had so many tough years before this final, horrible thing happened, and I'm sure that's the case with your brother as well. just so much stress and worry and fear that goes into it for loved ones and then to have them die. It's just. What was all that for? You know, it's hard. 

[00:29:18] Edward Krumpotich: It's hard to, I mean there's, it's hard to know what it was for. My dad and I had a conversation, this was about five or six years ago. My dad was just as sick as I was just as sick.

And when I say that, it's because it's a family disease. But he had, since the divorce, I chose my mom, my dad, and one of my earliest memories was him leaning on the car like this. And it was one of those things like, I've lost my. I remember it. I was 10 years old. ever since that day, that man, the chief lover of my life, right, enabled me because he felt guilty.

He felt guilty that it was his fault. My addiction didn't allow me to see that amount of beauty. What we had to do was come into a conference one day, and this is no joke, right? I grew up in a rather rich entitle. Place. And I looked at my dad, I said, dad, you've gotta let me go. If I call you, you must say no, So it would be 30 below zero. Outside in St. Paul, I would have no shoes, no socks, and no joke. Sometimes no underwear. And I'd be walking, getting frostbite and I'd call him and I'd say, can you get me a hotel? And my dad had to make the hardest decision that probably any parent has to make. And he had to say no, And wait for his son to call back and hopefully he didn't die. And that is what I did to my dad. All the time. 

And when I got sober and I was able to find those places, I realized how those individuals in my life waited for me to heal. And it is a long process. But I mean, you can empathize how hard that no must have been, 

[00:30:55] Angela Kennecke: right? I always say sometimes now I look back because my daughter did not live because of fentanyl, but I. Look back and I think I did all these tough love things that I was told to do, right? Like you have to set boundaries and you don't tolerate this behavior. And I regret some of those things now because I think maybe that was the wrong thing to do.

I didn't know what I was do. I was just like taking advice and trying anything. Right? And some of those tough love things like saying no, were the hardest thing to do ever. Of course, my daughter didn't know that at the time. She was just angry, But I don't know if that was the right thing to do or not.

I don't know if your dad not getting your hotel room was the right thing to do or not, you know? But you are here and you survived all that, which is amazing to me. It's hard to know, though. It does take its toll as a parent, as a, a loved one, somebody who's suffering from substance use disorder really does.

[00:31:48] Edward Krumpotich: And that toll becomes the reason why many of us continue to use. I was roly guilty for as long as I can remember, and in that guilt, I didn't find myself even confronting that pain because it hurt so badly. It hurt so badly what I was doing to my family that I would just go out and use to cover it up.

The interesting part about addiction and behavior in general is that in order for anything to work, it has to be our idea. We are the one that one day has to say. I've had. So what you were doing for your daughter and my dad did for me is he gave us the chance, chance, that chance to say I'm done. Most of the people who get that chance will probably die, and then that is why this disease is so horrible, because when we get to that choice, that spiritual place where we go, I'm done. We're either this close to. Or this close to life, and it's just a, it's a smidge away.

I tried to take my life two times and overdosed countless. That smidge just, I was given the grace by something to have the opportunity just to choose life one time. 

[00:33:00] Angela Kennecke: Yeah. and you're doing the most that you can with it. So ] let's talk about that, the harm reduction that you're working on and what you think is most important to happen. I know we talked about fentanyl testing strips and how it is going to be legal to have fentanyl testing strips in South Dakota now. 

[00:33:15] Edward Krumpotich: Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:15] Angela Kennecke: And you helped with that. But what other things do you think are important that we do in this nation to save lives So we can keep people alive until they can, make that choice to get well, and it, you're right, external forces can only do so much. It has to come from within that person. 

[00:33:33] Edward Krumpotich: Yep. Here is the, Here's where addiction medicine was, and here was the mistake. For many years, Angela Treatments lived here. The addict lived here. Treatments is the resistance, unfortunately. So when you're saying something like, just say no to somebody who is in an oppositional disease, right? All you're gonna get is what happened with you and your daughter and me and my dad. You're gonna get anger, resentments, hostility. That's it. So you're not gonna penetrate. Here is what harm reduction does. It takes this window when it. Right here. So here's what things like syringe service programs, fentanyl test trips do.

When you have an addict who comes into a program like this, this is what you get. I'm okay with you using. You are worth it. You're lovable, man. When you're ready, we can help you with treatment. So what the addict here is, wait, you're not judging me for. And so what happens with the eyes and what happens at harm reduction is they begin to see the services that harm reduction provides into things like recovery, because it serves as the beautiful middle ground of empathy.

That is what we have been missing. What we need to do is love the addict, not the behavior. Right? So when somebody comes and says to you, I'm an addict, instead of going, oh gosh, bless your heart, man, that's tough. Maybe say something. I'm here if you need me. I don't know how I can help you. Just let me know.

Right. I'll be here for a ride if you need me. And when they say the word and they say they want help, that window is about that big. So if you have an addict or a friend or somebody in recovery who is slipping and falling and they go, I need help, there is no moment better than that moment right then, because that brain will flip and it will take them.

Empathy is what we've been missing. 

[00:35:22] Angela Kennecke: Right, right. No, you're, you're right. Empathy has, but, but also the argument that, well, if you do needle exchanges and other things, some of the things that are being done in California, you know, you're just encouraging drug use. They're never gonna stop that way or tolerating it. what do you say to that argument? I mean, you know the argument. 

[00:35:40] Edward Krumpotich: Yeah. Not only is it categorically false, here's the deal. Do you know that if somebody visits a syringe service program for the first time, do you know they're five times? This has been studied over and over five times more likely to go to treatment five times.

If they go, they are three times more likely to lower their drug use. When it comes to uniformed officers, they have less needle stick injuries as a result, and even more so 50. Reduction in STD and infectious diseases like HIV and Hep C, right? I got HIV from a dirty needle, we know that these work, here's the problem, that stigma that says you're gonna create more drug use has everybody from Nebraska to South Dakota to California on the same page.

The stats do not support that. It's not even close. And so what we do is we bring empathy to the local communities and we. Hey, this is what we can do for you. I'm working out in Nebraska right now. They're getting ready to pass their very first syringe service program law ever, ever. They had a rise in H I V that was far surpassed their previous 10 years and maybe ever. In truth,

they're getting ready to erect syringe service programs because of HIV, just like Mike Pence did in Indiana. So these are things that we know.

[00:37:00] Angela Kennecke: Right. And I think the more we can talk about it and the more we can educate people, the better. And I also believe that medically assisted treatment needs to be much more available. There's some things that have happened in Congress now, but yet there are so many hurdles, for doctors to go through to be able to prescribe. Medicines for people who are suffering from addiction, whether in your case the ADHD medicine is helpful to you or if they're, being able to prescribe Suboxone or things like that. So that's another big hurdle that we have to get through in this country. 

[00:37:32] Edward Krumpotich: Two words, and I rarely use escalatory language, Angela, but m a t is gold standard.

There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it right now. None. That means that in order to treat a heart attack with a. That's a gold standard. Treatment is medicated assisted treatment for opioid use disorder, period. End of story. There is no doubt in many of the pharmacologic and medical communities that we know that that is the way of it.

Right. We know that m a t is, the stigma exists in the recovery community in other communities as well. And so what we're trying to do now is let people know that it's okay to be on a medication for as long as here were some of the stats, right? We missed addiction stats a long time ago. People were like, how long have you been sober?

Oh, Eddie, you've been sober for 50 days. Did you ask questions like, wow, you have two. You go to meetings, you have recovery. Recovery isn't about the length of time necessarily that you've been sober. It's about what you're doing in your life. So here's what happens with Suboxone and methadone.

People are able to go to work, hold apartments, get their kids back stay safe, not engage in criminal behavior. That right there is recovery period. And that's what m a t. 

[00:38:50] Angela Kennecke: And if we see it as a disease of the brain, just like we see diabetes as a disease or heart, problems as a disease, we treat those with medications. We would treat this with medication as well. It only makes sense if you see it that way. But so much of the public, and even it's even stigmatized among medical professionals as well, because they don't get the kind of training that they need 

[00:39:09] Edward Krumpotich: you ain't lying about that.

Here's the funny part about addiction. Here's what it used to be. Addiction treatment used to be this. Oh, you have a dopamine problem. Take it away. Take it away. No dopamine for you. We're gonna send you to treatment. We're not gonna put anything there cuz if you have dopamine, then nah. Uh, Here's what m a t did beautifully.

Opioid use disorder may have saved addiction. And here is. Because it was the first disorder in addiction where they went, what if they need opioids? Wait, what if we're missing the boat here? What if it's not? They don't. What if it's that? They do. And so what methadone and Suboxone did is it gave them just enough.

And what that does is that now they use their drug of choice to pair behavior. And so they're doing, they're in treatment. They're going. And they're using the drug that they need in order to survive. That is new addiction medicine. 

[00:40:05] Angela Kennecke: Right. That's a great way to put it. I haven't heard it exactly like that. What do you think we need to do next in this country? What do you wanna see? 

[00:40:12] Edward Krumpotich: Yeah, so, you know, I think the new track here for addiction medicine, right, is to meet people where they're at, whatever that looks like.

So some communities have decided they're gonna do overdose prevention sites where people can go and appropriately use inside these. So the idea here is that we know that drug use happens. It's not gonna stop, period.

End story. It's like asking to get rid of obesity. . You're using drugs, okay, that's okay. We're gonna treat you here. And when you're. We're gonna go all in. And so that means increasing subsidies for treatment programs. It puts grant funding for states. Those states that don't like to put out state funded treatment centers. It's important to have enough where people can get in, in a, time that's not 28 days later, we need right now. So when people ask for help, they're moving in. 

[00:40:58] Angela Kennecke: Or just 28 days long as dictated by the insurance companies. Right. 

[00:41:02] Edward Krumpotich: You ain't lying about that. Yeah. 

[00:41:03] Angela Kennecke: do think that we have to change in some ways, fentanyl is doing this, right. What Fentanyl is doing to this country and the number of lives it's taking and being the number one killer of people 18 to 45, and all of the people like me who have been affected by loss due to fentanyl, is forcing people and forcing our society. At some point, there's a tipping point, right? On how we view and treat addiction. Because it's always been someone else's problem. It's always been hidden. And over here in the shadows, even if it was in your own family, you hid it. But now I think that has to change because just of the sheer number of deaths happening.

[00:41:41] Edward Krumpotich: Yep. South Dakota increased their overdoses last year. Exponential. 

This can be preventable. Right? What fentanyl test strips in your advocacy does is it tells the addict like myself, who's walked into detoxes, who had fentanyl and ecsta. In my drugs when I didn't use them, I tested positive for both of 'em. Oh. It allows us to know what we're using long enough to hear the message of recovery.

That is what your advocacy does. It just says to the addict, you're good enough. We're gonna keep you alive, and we're gonna keep our community safe. Cuz imagine this for a police officer. Imagine if you have somebody testing their stuff and it's laced with. And then all of a sudden the police get a tip and they're like, look, the stuff coming in here is from Fentanyl.

This now becomes a public health issue and a policing issue where we can agree drug users want to know what they're using. Police want to know what drug users are using. We can come together and create a system that allows us to talk to each other and eradicate this. 

[00:42:44] Angela Kennecke: Right. Right. And that's what we are working toward. It seems like a pretty heavy lift here, Eddie, but I'm glad that we're on the same side. 

[00:42:52] Edward Krumpotich: Yes. We're,

[00:42:53] Angela Kennecke: because it's gonna take a lot of people to really change hearts and minds and policies and all of these things in our country, and it's just seems to me like baby step at a time. In the meantime, what's terrifying to me is people continue to. glad you weren't one of them. I'm glad you are here to do this work. 

[00:43:11] Edward Krumpotich: I am fortunate and grateful because I should have been dead. I don't know why my higher power decided to choose me over some of my friends and family, but the reason I do the work that I do is because I've been given the grace. To wake up tomorrow and to wake up today,

I held guilt over my head for a long time for things like my brother's death. But what I do know is that what you're doing and what I'm doing puts in my heart exactly what needs to be there, which is service to others. That is my MO for getting sober.

And so I just appreciate you for the work that you're doing as. 

[00:43:48] Angela Kennecke: Well, thank you. Service to others is my, I dunno if antidote is the right word, but it's my answer to grief. So it can be your answer to addiction and guilt. It can be your answer to grief. I think service to others is so important. So thanks for what you do too.

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[00:44:04] Angela Kennecke: Thank you for listening to this episode of Grieving Out Loud. If you wanna check out more episodes or learn how to get involved in our mission, head over to our website, Emilys Hope dot charity. If you found this podcast helpful, we'd really appreciate it if you left us a positive review and shared it with your friends and family.

Together we can raise awareness about our country's drug crisis and hopefully prevent future tragedies. Thanks again for tuning in. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage.

This podcast is produced by Casey Wonnenberg-King and Anna Fey.

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