[00:00:00] Julie Baumgard: She met someone and. Started using meth, lost everything, lost her apartment, her car, her jobs, eventually she became homeless,

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:00:12] Angela Kennecke: A very difficult situation to overcome, but Julie Baumgard's daughter Shauna, did rise above it. She quit using drugs. She got a job and became the loving person she was before meth, devastated her life. 

[00:00:29] Julie Baumgard: She was the daughter who called and said, Hey, mom, just calling to see how you're doing.

[00:00:33] Angela Kennecke: However, on Shauna's Son's 20th birthday, she made a deadly mistake.

[00:00:42] Julie Baumgard: We had a text message from a friend that was submitted to police that she was looking for a Percocet and there wasn't any Oxy in her system. There was 18 times a lethal dose of Fentanyl in her system.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:00:53] Angela Kennecke: Welcome to Grieving Out Loud, a podcast dedicated to shedding light on one of the biggest crisis facing our nation today. The deadly drug epidemic. I'm Angela Kennecke, the founder of Emily's Hope, a charity named after my beloved daughter who died at just 21 years old due to fentanyl poisoning. With this podcast, I hope to honor her memory and help others who are struggling with substance use disorder by sharing our stories, raising awareness, and reducing stigma.

Join us as we hear from experts, survivors, and families affected by this crisis. And work together to find solutions and save lives.

Julie, it was a pleasure to meet you at the DEA conference for parents who've lost children to Fentanyl in Omaha this fall. And I'm so grateful for you joining me back on the podcast here. 

[00:01:50] Julie Baumgard: Thank you so much for having me. It was pleasure to meet you as well. And thank you for sharing at the DEA conference. It was really supportive for all of us who have been through this similar thing. So thank. . 

[00:02:01] Angela Kennecke: It was so interesting to me because this conference that we met at was directed toward parents from all over the upper Midwest. 

[00:02:09] Julie Baumgard: Mm-hmm. 

[00:02:09] Angela Kennecke: who've lost a child to Fentanyl. Do you feel that it helps to connect with other parents like that? 

[00:02:16] Julie Baumgard: It's a lifesaver for me. Yeah. To have. I try to support group that was just for bereaved parents of, very different things, car accidents, suicide, whatever. And it just, it kind of fizzled out. So I guess having the same history makes a huge difference and we just kind of support one another.

[00:02:37] Angela Kennecke: I think there's that instant understanding, right. 

[00:02:40] Julie Baumgard: Right. . 

[00:02:41] Angela Kennecke: So your daughter, Shauna, 

[00:02:44] Julie Baumgard: mm-hmm. . 

[00:02:44] Angela Kennecke: Tell me a little bit about her. Tell me about her growing up and tell me about, what she was like. 

[00:02:49] Julie Baumgard: she was the second of my four children. I have three daughters and a son.

She was of my three daughters, my more outgoing, spontaneous one. Her and I are alike in a lot of ways, but that was the one way that she was different than me. She was much more of a people person and not an introvert. You know, she did things with sports in high school. She, went to vocational school when she graduated, a couple different things that she completed.

She had a child when she was 17. His name is Isaiah. she raised him by herself and worked and traveled with her friends and. Just enjoyed life. She was very supportive. My oldest daughter has a daughter with some pretty complex medical things, and Shauna was always there. Supporting my oldest daughter, Amanda. She was always helping with the kids, helping with Abby, the granddaughter, with the medical problems helping my youngest daughter with her kids. 

She just, she loved hanging out with her nieces and nephews. She'd get them for the weekend. They'd go to the park, they'd go swimming, they'd whatever picnics just hanging out was one of her favorite things I think to do.

[00:03:58] Angela Kennecke: , when did she start using substances? Do you know? 

[00:04:01] Julie Baumgard: As a teenager she had some things where she would've been drinking, probably But in 2015, her dad died suddenly, and there was some family drama with related to that.

I remember her telling me I'm okay mom. When her dad had died, and I'm grieving, he was 57. He wasn't terribly old, and he died suddenly. And, she would tell me she was okay. Well then she apparently wasn't because she started down this bad road 

 (MUSIC UP) 

[00:04:29] Angela Kennecke: Research shows that people who don't properly deal with grief are more likely to develop a substance use disorder. Julie doesn't know exactly what led her daughter to start experimenting with drugs, but she believes it started in 2016.

 (MUSIC UP) 

[00:04:49] Julie Baumgard: She met someone and. Started using meth, lost everything, lost her apartment, her car, her jobs, eventually when she became homeless, and this was in Minnesota, in central Minnesota.

I sent Isaiah to live in Arizona with my youngest daughter because he was at that point homeless as well. and I never did really ask her the story to this, but she ended up on a road trip with someone and ended up in a suburb south of Memphis. There was some kind of altercation in the vehicle. She got out, so she's on the street and she tried to do something rather stupid. She was trying to break into a car in a car lot. 

She was destitute. She had left her purse, her money, everything in this vehicle and. . Fortunately she got caught. She ended up with a felony for trying to break into a vehicle and went to jail in a, well, it was a Mississippi jail and it wasn't pleasant, I don't think.

There for about four or five months, she came home and she had some issues that she had to deal with. She had to go to jail in Minnesota. and she did that. And then right after that, she went to treatment. That would've been the fall of 17 inpatient, halfway house outpatient. She did everything. And by February of 18 she was, she was great.

She got an apartment. There was some money from inheritance from her dad. We got her son Isaiah back from Arizona, and things were great from then. . 

[00:06:22] Angela Kennecke: What was happening with you during that time? Were you worried about her constantly? 

[00:06:27] Julie Baumgard: Yes. 

[00:06:27] Angela Kennecke: I know what it's like to be worried about a child and to have like that dark cloud.

[00:06:32] Julie Baumgard: Yes. 

[00:06:32] Angela Kennecke: Following you around everywhere. 

[00:06:34] Julie Baumgard: if I couldn't reach her, I would call her and she would tell me she was okay. But she. On the street somewhere, and usually the conversations were okay. She didn't ever really ask for anything. If I couldn't reach her, I would just call law enforcement in St. Cloud where she lived and someone would find her. 

One night I got a call from, Some law enforcement person, I couldn't, I don't know his name anymore, but he called me and he said, I just wanted to let you know that we had Shauna, she had gone to the hospital because she thought she was overdosing on something and then she left again and they said that they found heroin and PCP in her system they did a toxicology and she left then again.

And I remember her telling me, mom, I didn't want any of that, any of. those bad drugs in my system. I was scared. Didn't, didn't want that. That was, of course, she told me that later, But I'm sure I was probably a thorn in law enforcement side because I was calling them, I was trying to find her. I was, When your child is homeless and you know, it's winter, you feel guilty. If you eat, you feel guilty that you're in a warm house. And it's, it was, it was hard. It was very difficult. 

[00:07:46] Angela Kennecke: Did you ever try to bring her home during that time 

[00:07:49] Julie Baumgard: I tried to bring her home at Christmas to my oldest daughter's house in Northern Minnesota. But she became almost scary , when she was gonna get in the car that night, like she was volatile, that I needed to send her to Arizona. And she was angry and she, she was a little bit scary. , so I ended up calling law enforcement and they took her to the hospital 

and. she just was hard to communicate with. 

[00:08:13] Angela Kennecke: How did all of this affect Isaiah? 

[00:08:16] Julie Baumgard: I think he was always worried about his mom. I know that that summer before she was homeless, the man she was involved with would threaten him. and I can remember calling and checking on them and he would say, well, there's not a lot to eat.

And one night she had locked the, I'm not painting a very good picture of my daughter, this loving person. But in this time when she was actively using meth, she was not a loving person.  Now I'm getting off track. But we tried an intervention initially, my husband and I and her best friend and her husband, she just turned her nose up and away she went, would have nothing to do with us.

We tried to go and talk to her. One night she threw Isaiah out of the apartment and he had to walk to find internet service. I don't know if he didn't have phone service, but he had internet to go to a go grocery store and call, and a friend picked him up and then I drove to St. Cloud and gave him a ride back and tried to talk to her. I bought her groceries. I did what I could to try to help her and. , she just wasn't receptive. I can remember seeing her one day when I just, before she became homeless, we were driving up and there stood this very skinny girl on the street corner and I did not recognize her. She didn't even look like my daughter.

 She was so thin and wearing baggy clothes and just the typical way. , you look when you've been using meth, you get very thin and wear clothes. That covers everything. And I don't know, just a lot of bad stuff happened. Her shoulder got broken. She was beaten and landed in jail and was actually in a halfway house one time, but she left and went back.

 She just kept going back to it until she had months. A long enough time in jail to be clean, I guess. 

[00:10:05] Angela Kennecke: Well, I think your story and Shauna's story is not really unusual for anybody who sees their loved one suffer from addiction to especially any kind of addiction, but addiction to meth. 

[00:10:19] Julie Baumgard: Mm-hmm. , 

[00:10:19] Angela Kennecke: and it just takes over the brain. And that sweet loving girl you're talking about is who she really was.. 

[00:10:25] Julie Baumgard: Right. 

[00:10:26] Angela Kennecke: When she's under the influence of these drugs and they hijack the brain. 

[00:10:30] Julie Baumgard: Mm-hmm. , 

[00:10:30] Angela Kennecke: it's like you lose that person that you love. 

[00:10:33] Julie Baumgard: Yeah. You couldn't communicate with her at all. You just couldn't. She, she'd become angry, 

[00:10:38] Angela Kennecke: but by 2017 she'd gone through the treatment. She was doing better. I bet you had a lot of hope at that point, right? 

[00:10:46] Julie Baumgard: Oh, absolutely. She, was a changed person. After she'd gone through all the treatment, got a place to live again, she was so much more patient. She would tell me, mom, it's okay. Calm down, have faith, it'll be okay.

And her and I had had a history of both being anxiety type personalities where we would get upset, but she was the one who was calm and supportive. after that. So we were very surprised when what happened happened to her. So 

[00:11:19] Angela Kennecke: things seemed to be going well. 

[00:11:21] Julie Baumgard: Right? 

[00:11:21] Angela Kennecke: And, and you didn't know. But she had had some other issues come up in addition to her substance use disorder. She had been in an accident, she'd had some health issues 

[00:11:32] Julie Baumgard: Well, I saw her on May 30th. She was great. We had gone up to Fargo because my granddaughter was in the hospital, had been there since the beginning of March, and she brought my granddaughter up there to visit because they had lifted the covid restrictions enough that we could get in and visit.

So we spent that day together and it was a great day. Yes, I did not know this, but she had been in a car accident. She also had spinal stenosis in her thoracic spine and chronic migraines. 

So she did uh, physical therapy. She got nerve ablations in her neck routinely. And then there was so many lockdowns in Minnesota she couldn't really get the doctor. So our belief is that she was looking for something to manage this chronic pain. 

[00:12:15] Angela Kennecke: So Covid the pandemic? 

[00:12:17] Julie Baumgard: Mm-hmm. 

[00:12:17] Angela Kennecke: was partly to blame, do you believe? 

[00:12:19] Julie Baumgard: There are a lot of things with the lockdowns that I don't think in hindsight, that were probably beneficial to people with mental health issues. She did have a diagnosis of borderline personality disorder I don't know that not being able to go to the doctor when you needed to was helpful or for her, 

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:12:38] Angela Kennecke: in addition to not being able to go to the doctor during the Covid lockdown, Shauna also wasn't able to go to work. Julie believes that played a role in her daughter's relapse. 

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:12:51] Julie Baumgard: she wasn't working because after the jail time in Mississippi, she now had a felony. So she wasn't working in a clinic setting anymore. She was working as a waitress at an olive garden and everything was shut down, so there was no work and there was time on her hands to do whatever. 

[00:13:08] Angela Kennecke: I do think it's so unfortunate when people suffering from substance use disorder get these felonies on their record, and then they can't get jobs, they can't find places to live. I mean, it's, it's, 

[00:13:19] Julie Baumgard: mm-hmm. 

[00:13:19] Angela Kennecke: the system, the way it holds this disease of the brain. And I understand that people commit crimes often while under the influence of drugs or alcohol. 

[00:13:30] Julie Baumgard: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . 

[00:13:31] Angela Kennecke: But we don't rehabilitate people. We continue to punish them.

[00:13:34] Julie Baumgard: Yes. 

[00:13:34] Angela Kennecke: It kind of exacerbates the problem. 

[00:13:38] Julie Baumgard: I was just reading an article about that this morning. here in South Dakota they have overflowing jails with people with drug problems, and then they don't have any aftercare for them. And that's what they need is some support afterwards so that they don't end up with some minor parole violation and they can resume a productive life. And that makes it very hard for them. 

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:14:01] Angela Kennecke: Meanwhile, Shauna was doing much better and seemed to be on the road to recovery. Then unfortunately, things took a tragic turn on June 20th of 2020.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:14:24] Julie Baumgard: I talked to her on the 19th. We had a lovely conversation. We had text messages. Everything was fine. We were talking about the concerns with my granddaughter in the hospital, and the 20th was Isaiah's 20th birthday.

And I didn't talk to her that day. I did talk to Isaiah. He was gonna go spend some time with his friends and. She was supposed to go pick up Olivia, my oldest daughter's youngest daughter, and take her so she could go again up to Fargo. and go help Mandy with some things at her house. And she did not show up to pick up Olivia and didn't answer the phone after seven o'clock that night. She wasn't found until almost midnight. 

[00:15:09] Angela Kennecke: Who found her, 

[00:15:10] Julie Baumgard: Isaiah and her boyfriend found her. So 

[00:15:15] Angela Kennecke: Isaiah on his birthday, on his 20th.

[00:15:19] Julie Baumgard: Yeah, it was five minutes to 11 when, law enforcement arrived and I asked them if they could change the date to the 21st, and they said they couldn't. So, 

[00:15:31] Angela Kennecke: oh. It's an awful thing for him. 

[00:15:33] Julie Baumgard: It is. 

[00:15:34] Angela Kennecke: Have to live. 

[00:15:34] Julie Baumgard: Yeah. Yes it is. 

[00:15:36] Angela Kennecke: So what did you think had happened? 

[00:15:38] Julie Baumgard: Well, initially I got a call just before 2:00 AM from my youngest daughter because she lived in the same town and she had gone over there to the apartment and then brought Isaiah home with her and we got out of bed of course, and drove up to St. Cloud and I, we didn't know what to think.

Did she have a heart attack? Did you know what happened? Was there a homicide where someone. Had done something to her, but the investigation revealed another one or two pills in a container. And we met with the investigator a day or so later because it was Sunday, and he advised us where the pills likely came from, and her toxicology revealed that she did not have any Percocet, which was what we thought she was looking for. We had a text message from a friend that was submitted to police that she was looking for a Percocet and there wasn't any Oxy in her system. There was 18 times a lethal dose of Fentanyl in her system. So they're still an open investigation.

They're still trying to get her phone open. For some reason, Minnesota does not have the c apability for some reason, I don't know. I talked with the investigator on Friday. He said they've got a new program, so they'll be trying her phone first to see if they can find out some information where the pill came from.

[00:16:55] Angela Kennecke: So from what you know 

[00:16:56] Julie Baumgard: mm-hmm. , 

[00:16:57] Angela Kennecke: she took a Percocet that was fentanyl. 

[00:17:00] Julie Baumgard: That's what we 

[00:17:00] Angela Kennecke: times the amount. 

[00:17:02] Julie Baumgard: Mm-hmm. , 

[00:17:02] Angela Kennecke: that would kill somebody. 

[00:17:03] Julie Baumgard: Right. 

[00:17:04] Angela Kennecke: And she probably had no idea. 

[00:17:07] Julie Baumgard: That's what we believe. Yeah. 

[00:17:09] Angela Kennecke: So when you discovered this, what went through your mind? 

[00:17:14] Julie Baumgard: Well, I'm a nurse. I know what Fentanyl is used for in the medical setting. I, it just, I had no idea. I knew about meth and heroin and M D M A and all these other drugs, but I did not know that Fentanyl was out there and that it was being put in pills and they were saying they were Percocet or Xanax or Adderall had no idea.

I don't know whether Shauna knew there was a risk, that risk was there when she was looking for Percocet. I, I don't know. It was not something we ever talked about. . 

[00:17:44] Angela Kennecke: Well, I think you're not alone, Julie. I think, so many of the parents that I talked to at the DEA conference where we met 

[00:17:51] Julie Baumgard: mm-hmm. , 

[00:17:51] Angela Kennecke: they had never heard of Fentanyl before their child died from it. And you knew about the drug fentanyl, but they didn't even know what it was. 

[00:17:58] Julie Baumgard: Right. 

[00:17:59] Angela Kennecke: And so it's not surprising to me. And that's not that long ago. 

[00:18:02] Julie Baumgard: No, there's a lot of misconception that, that the fentanyl in the hospital is the fentanyl that people are taking, and it's really not the same thing. So 

[00:18:12] Angela Kennecke: no, it's certainly not the same thing, and it's certainly not administered in the same way 

[00:18:16] Julie Baumgard: right 

[00:18:16] Angela Kennecke: now. Julie, how have you coped with the loss of Shauna? 

[00:18:21] Julie Baumgard: I try to support her son. He kind of keeps quiet to himself. So I do worry about him, but he's managing with work in his apartment and his friends. And the first six months shock, I think, you think that it's not really your child. Because I remember looking at her in the casket and going, no, you just, you just don't believe it.

Sometimes I still can't believe it. And it's been over two and a half years. . Once you get over the shock, I think it's a lot of crying, a lot of sitting on my deck crying. A lot of crying in the shower and crying to and from work. 

[00:18:58] Angela Kennecke: It affects every aspect of your life though, I think. 

[00:19:01] Julie Baumgard: Mm-hmm. . , 

[00:19:02] Angela Kennecke: it's never the same again. And I agree with you. Shock to sadness and depression. 

[00:19:08] Julie Baumgard: Mm-hmm. ,

[00:19:08] Angela Kennecke: maybe throw a little anger in there later on. 

[00:19:11] Julie Baumgard: Mm-hmm. . 

[00:19:11] Angela Kennecke: And then you realize that this is something you and I 

[00:19:16] Julie Baumgard: mm-hmm. 

[00:19:16] Angela Kennecke: have to live with for the rest of our lives, you know?

 (commercial break) 

[00:19:20] Julie Baumgard: Yes. And I wish I could trade places with her and I, I can't, but I mean, I'm, I'm now 53 years old and I have friends, I have a lot of people I know at my age who have illnesses and they die. What it could've, it should've been me, not her. You go through a lot of that. She should be here, 

[00:19:34] Angela Kennecke: right. And I do, I worry about her son. Is he living the same town as you? Do you see him 

[00:19:39] Julie Baumgard: he's living in St. Cloud. He has a apartment. He has a job. Well, I talk to him. probably weekly, and we see him maybe once a month or so. 

[00:19:50] Angela Kennecke: Does he ever talk about losing his mom in this way?

[00:19:53] Julie Baumgard: Sometimes He will talk about it when we're together. Not as much as I would hope. I tried to bring up over Christmas of all times, of course, when we were sitting around the table one evening. , how did it feel to get them to open up Isaiah and my youngest daughter, Mallory, were there when Shauna was.

Mallory came over later and they were there when they took Shauna out. How do you deal with that trauma of seeing that, cuz that is trauma, but I didn't get a whole lot out of either one of them wanting to talk about. So I worry that they're stuffing these emotions and feelings and so, 

[00:20:34] Angela Kennecke: and I agree with you, that is huge trauma to see. I mean, I was there when my daughter died. 

[00:20:39] Julie Baumgard: Yeah. 

[00:20:40] Angela Kennecke: And when, she was taken out of her apartment and. . You relive those scenes in your mind all the time. I 

[00:20:47] Julie Baumgard: sure do. Yeah. 

[00:20:49] Angela Kennecke: And even if they don't wanna talk about it, even if

[00:20:51] Julie Baumgard: mm-hmm. , 

[00:20:51] Angela Kennecke: Isaiah and your younger daughter don't wanna talk about it, definitely it's there, you know?

[00:20:55] Julie Baumgard: Yeah. 

[00:20:57] Angela Kennecke: And then we come back to the whole issue of how unnecessary all of this is. How your daughter didn't have to die. My daughter didn't have to die. 

[00:21:06] Julie Baumgard: Absolutely not. , 

[00:21:08] Angela Kennecke: it's just so frustrating. How do you deal with your frustration over the cause of her death? 

[00:21:14] Julie Baumgard: Well, I am now the official state representative for drug induced homicide for South Dakota. There are two members, myself and my husband, along with a few other members. There was a woman in Chicago that lost her daughter to M D M A many years ago. 15, 2015 I think, and she started drug induced homicide. She was a police officer and , she was, had trouble getting them to investigate her daughter's death.

And finally they did. And she started this. It's nationwide and the states have one too. So that's, so I'm trying to get information about South Dakota. We don't have drug induced homicide here they do in Minnesota where my daughter died and it's not. Helping a whole lot. But, so I'm trying to be an advocate.

I'm trying to be supportive and be part of some of these groups. Intend to go to Lost Voices of Fentanyls Rally at DC in September. There's could be an appalled rally. We did that last year. Bridget and I and a few other people that were at the DEA table. We did an appalled rally last summer. Just attending events.

There's one in February in Minnesota at the Capitol that I'm planning to go to as well. that helps me to feel like I'm doing something to bring some awareness about this. So it doesn't continue to happen and it's happening at an alarming rate 

[00:22:34] Angela Kennecke: yes, it certainly is.

 and I think advocacy work, obviously I do a lot of advocacy work and I think it, 

[00:22:39] Julie Baumgard: mm-hmm. . 

[00:22:40] Angela Kennecke: be a place to put your grief into action. 

[00:22:42] Julie Baumgard: Right.

[00:22:42] Angela Kennecke: It can be a 

[00:22:43] Julie Baumgard: Right. 

[00:22:43] Angela Kennecke: Doesn't necessarily take it away or lessen it, but it's something constructive to do. 

[00:22:49] Julie Baumgard: Right, right. 

[00:22:51] Angela Kennecke: Is there something else that you think we should be doing in this country or something else that you see that could help fix this Fentanyl crisis that we're in?

[00:23:01] Julie Baumgard: I wish that there were public service announcements, just like the Covid announcements. There are families and groups putting up billboards, but why are we not saying fentanyl is in everything? And why is that not everywhere in every school? Just everywhere that everybody knew about it as readily as we did. Covid, when it, first started to be a threat to everyone's health. 

[00:23:26] Angela Kennecke: It probably goes back to the stigma of someone using drugs. I believe it goes back to stigma, but we're doing our best. You and I are doing our best to try to stop that, right?

[00:23:36] Julie Baumgard: We're trying, yeah. 

[00:23:38] Angela Kennecke: and so when you think about Shauna's life, , how do you want her to be remembered?

[00:23:45] Julie Baumgard: She was spontaneous, loving, fun. She liked to have, just have fun with her friends, with her son, with her, you know, her siblings.

she went white water rafting. She went on trips to here and there with her friends. She just liked to do fun things and for us not to have her in our family. She would be the one working with the kids to prepare for family gatherings. She would be the one planning them. She would sporadically say, well, let's rent a motel room and we'll all go swimming and, she would pay for it and let's just do this and do that.

And we've got a big empty hole in our, in our family right now, so it's always going to be that way, I guess. So, 

[00:24:32] Angela Kennecke: yeah, sadly. Sadly, yes. And I'm sure. A young man is missing his mother, you know? 

[00:24:37] Julie Baumgard: Yes, he is. Yes, he is.

[00:24:40] Angela Kennecke: Well, Julie, I just want to thank you so much for the advocacy work that you are doing and for sharing Shauna's story today. 

[00:24:48] Julie Baumgard: Thank you for everything you are doing for the opportunity for me to visit with you. Thank you so much.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:24:53] Angela Kennecke: while stories like Shauna's are difficult to hear, we believe that by sharing all that we have in common, we can reduce the stigma surrounding substance use disorder. Increase awareness and lessen the suffering of others. You are not alone. You can listen to more grieving out loud podcasts and find resources for help on our website, Emilys Hope Charity.

If you're finding this podcast helpful, please consider supporting the show by making a donation on our website. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Wonnenberg-King and Anna Fey

 (MUSIC UP!)