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[00:00:00] Angela Kennecke: Welcome to Grieving Out Loud, a podcast that explores some of the toughest issues we face as a society from mental health and addiction to grief and loss. I'm Angela Kennecke, and I founded this podcast as a way to honor my daughter Emily, who died at just 21 years old from Fentanyl poisoning. Through this podcast and my charity, Emily's Hope, we are working to break down the stigma surrounding substance use disorder and raise awareness about the importance of getting help for those who need it.

In today's episode, we'll hear from a mother who shares her story of discovering that her son was experimenting with what he thought was Percocet. While that was a tough moment for her, she was grateful that her son trusted her enough to tell the truth.

[00:00:51] Jenna James: I know that opioids are very addictive and dangerous, but I never thought that they were gonna kill him, if that makes sense. Because it was so new and we had time. That was my biggest thing. We have time to fix this

[00:01:05] Angela Kennecke: But Jenna found out in the worst way possible, there isn't time in today's world when drug dealers are lacing illicit substances with fentanyl.

[00:01:24] Jenna James: It took nine minutes for the paramedics to get here. So it was nine minutes that I was here alone with his body, knowing that there was just nothing that could be done. And when they walked in, they didn't even touch him because it was so obvious that he was gone

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[00:01:40] Angela Kennecke: Jenna, I'd like to say that I am deeply, deeply sorry that tragedy has brought us together for this podcast. We both lost. , our oldest, 21 year old children to fentanyl poisoning. But I am so grateful that you're here to talk about it with me today because I think the more we talk about it, the more we can get the word out to people that this is happening.

Even to people you think this should never happen to, the better. So thank you for being with me. 

[00:02:10] Jenna James: Thank you for having me. 

[00:02:12] Angela Kennecke: So I would like to talk about Brandon, your oldest son who went by Bam. Tell me a little bit about him. What kind of kid was he growing up? . 

[00:02:22] Jenna James: He was a very funny kid. He was larger than life in both personality and in size. He had always been a very big boy. And he just made everyone laugh constantly. That was his personality. 

[00:02:37] Angela Kennecke: Yeah, he looked like that kind of fun loving person. When I looked at some of your videos on TikTok, that's what struck me is that he just seemed kind of like a fun loving guy that everybody liked being around. 

[00:02:50] Jenna James: Yeah. Yeah. He was definitely like the class clown and the life of the party.

[00:02:54] Angela Kennecke: And you guys were really close because I understand that you also work together. 

[00:02:59] Jenna James: Yeah. He was an only child for the first nine years of his life, so we were very close in the beginning. But also his very first job that he ever got was a cook at a restaurant. And after I left pharmacy and I kind of didn't have an idea of what I wanted to do, he's like, just come work with me for a little bit. And we ended up working together for years 

[00:03:21] Angela Kennecke: and that went well. You had a good working relationship? 

[00:03:24] Jenna James: Yeah. Did we, we weren't in the same area, so we were close enough, but far enough apart that we didn't drive each other crazy. 

[00:03:32] Angela Kennecke: So he is 20 years old and he moves out on his own. 

[00:03:37] Jenna James: Correct. 

[00:03:38] Angela Kennecke: Was that something that you wanted for him at 20 to be out on his own or what? What was going on there? 

[00:03:44] Jenna James: Well, yes and no. He had a very serious girlfriend and. I didn't want them living with me. I felt that if he was serious enough with her to take the next step, then he should be in a position to where they can live together on their own. So I did encourage it. 

[00:04:04] Angela Kennecke: Yeah. But he was doing okay for a while, right? He and had this girlfriend and then, then what happened? 

[00:04:09] Jenna James: He found out that she was cheating on him and he had asked her to move out which of course that situation brought his self-esteem very low, which he had kind of struggled with on and off for years because of his size and his friends, you know, they all had their own places. They all had their own significant others, so it just brought him, I guess, to a very low point in his life. 

[00:04:34] Angela Kennecke: Right. I mean, I think whatever a young person has their first love or a first major relationship and it ends that breakup is really, really tough. 

[00:04:43] Jenna James: Yeah. It's hard to see yourself alone when you imagined a full life with that person. And when you're younger it's way more serious than it is, you know. 

[00:04:54] Angela Kennecke: Right, exactly. You think this is the end of the world because you'll never find anyone else again. I mean, we all remember those feelings of our first breakup, right? We all remember that. We all go through it pretty much. So he has broken up with the girl, and then a real issue happened. I mean, a real problem happened. Tell me what happened next. 

[00:05:12] Jenna James: Well I didn't know about it when it started, but. He had a friend that he was very close to that was struggling with addiction and I was aware of that. I had talked to him about his concerns about his friend. But somewhere after the breakup, his concern and counseling toward that friend, I think is what opened the door to him using what he thought was Percocet.

[00:05:38] Angela Kennecke: So bam started taking. Pills that counterfeit pills. He thought they were real, 

[00:05:43] Jenna James: correct? He thought he was taking Percocet. 

[00:05:46] Angela Kennecke: But you didn't know about this? 

[00:05:48] Jenna James: No. No. 

[00:05:49] Angela Kennecke: No. He's living on his own. I mean, that's one thing that was happening with my daughter. I knew something was off and something was wrong, and I had known about maybe some less harmful drugs such as marijuana that she was using, but I didn't know that she was using something like heroin, you know? And it started with pills for her too, which is so common. 

[00:06:08] Jenna James: Correct. I think heroin is often cheaper for them than getting pharmaceuticals 

[00:06:13] Angela Kennecke: right. The other thing too, I think is so interesting. You mentioned too that you had worked in a pharmacy for more than a decade, right? 

[00:06:20] Jenna James: Yeah. Almost two decades.

[00:06:21] Angela Kennecke: And so, you knew about opioids, you knew about fentanyl, you knew about all these things, right? 

[00:06:27] Jenna James: I did. I knew about fentanyl in like medical use. The lozenges, the patches and what they used and like surgeries. I wasn't aware of the illicit fentanyl, but I had talked to my kids often about drugs because they were an everyday part of my life.

[00:06:45] Angela Kennecke: Yeah, I think as parents we do think we can inoculate our children by, I mean, I remember as a reporter doing stories on meth and I would come home and talk to Emily incessantly about meth. Of course she never used meth, but , you just think the whole message is gonna get through to them and that's not always the case. We think we can prevent it, but we can't . 

[00:07:05] Jenna James: No. And they're so young. They're learning and they're developing. I mean, their brains aren't developed until later in life anyway. I think it's like 25, so, what makes them make the decisions they do? I, I don't know. 

[00:07:18] Angela Kennecke: Right. So he'd broken up with the girl, he'd started using some of these pills, and then he was in a car accident.

[00:07:25] Jenna James: right. So the day that I found out about the pills, cuz there were no signs, he wasn't living with me. I didn't see it. He had just gotten a great job that he had to be drug tested for. So that was never a thought in my mind. But apparently a lot of drug tests don't catch fentanyl, which is something I've learned since he passed.

[00:07:44] Angela Kennecke: I didn't know that. I didn't know that employer drug tests weren't testing for fentanyl. 

[00:07:50] Jenna James: I think they do now. Not all of them, but before, no, it wasn't something that they picked up on. 

[00:07:55] Angela Kennecke: Wow. Wow. 

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[00:07:57] Angela Kennecke: We dug into this topic and found some interesting information about fentanyl and drug tests. It turns out that fentanyl will not show up in a standard drug test because most of them are looking for morphine, which Fentanyl doesn't metabolize into. But if someone wants to specifically test for fentanyl, they can request a separate test.

Unfortunately, Brandon's drug test didn't show any signs of illegal use.

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[00:08:26] Jenna James: It was Halloween and. I had bought a house in May of that year, about an hour away from his apartment. We used to live about 20 minutes apart, and he had asked if he could come early and just hang out and spend the whole night with us. And I was like, oh, of course, 30 minutes later he called me screaming. He had hit a car in front of 'em at 45 miles an hour. He was okay. He had like a burn on his arm, but he was just in a full blown panic because he thought he had just ruined his life completely and.

I drove up there as quick as I could to calm him down, and that's when he told me everything. He told me about the depression. He told me about feeling like he's going nowhere. The only thing he thought he had going for him was his car, which was less than a year old and his new job, and he was afraid that he had lost them both with the accident because how would he get to w ork? 

[00:09:22] Angela Kennecke: So really he was self-medicating for depression and the accident and everything just made things worse for him. 

[00:09:28] Jenna James: It did. And he told me that day about it. Like I said, I had no clue. I would've never guessed. 

[00:09:35] Angela Kennecke: Did you think he needed treatment or did you offer him some help or what happened from there?

[00:09:39] Jenna James: I wasn't sure if he needed treatment. He had told me he had only been doing it since September. And with my background in pharmacy, I know that opioids are very addictive and dangerous, but I never thought that they were gonna kill him, if that makes sense. Because it was so new and we had time. That was my biggest thing. We have time to fix this. 

Which we didn't unfortunately, but we broke his lease right away. We moved him into our home, but it took a little bit of time. He didn't move home until the 11th of November because we had to get him to and from work so he could keep his job. So he stayed with another family member until he was able to buy his new car, which he did on the 11th when he moved in with me.

[00:10:23] Angela Kennecke: So he had started using the Percocet, what he thought was Percocet and who knows, you know, could have been fentanyl this entire time. And he just got lucky. But he started using that in September. And he moves in with you in November, 

[00:10:36] Jenna James: correct? 

[00:10:37] Angela Kennecke: That's not hardly any time at all? 

[00:10:39] Jenna James: No, not at all.

and I have, his phone, I have access to his email, all his social media. So I went through everything trying to see, cuz maybe he wasn't being honest, maybe it was longer. But I don't see any evidence of that. 

[00:10:53] Angela Kennecke: Right. I think after the fact we parents, many of us try to piece things together. I mean, I remember scouring everything too of Emily's, you know, what were the clues? What did I miss? That kind of thing.

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[00:11:04] Angela Kennecke: Jenna second guesses how she handled the whole situation with Brandon, but it's important to remember hindsight is always 2020. She was trying her best as a mom with the information she had at the time. Brandon moved in with her on November 11th, 2021. It was supposed to be a fresh start for him, but unfortunately things just didn't go as planned.

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[00:11:36] Jenna James: He went to work like he was supposed to. We had family time When he got home it was five days of just normal family life, and I, I knew that we needed to address the problem.

But I was still letting him settle in and get comfortable when I was trying to feel my way around this situation to know if it was serious enough that treatment was needed or if he just needed support. And five days was all it took before he was gone. So I didn't have time. 

[00:12:06] Angela Kennecke: He was only in your home for five days?

[00:12:09] Jenna James: Yeah. , 

[00:12:10] Angela Kennecke: I'm so sorry. And how frustrating because first of all, I think as a parent of an adult child, the answer of what to do isn't always very apparent. It's not always an easy answer. Right, 

[00:12:23] Jenna James: right. 

[00:12:24] Angela Kennecke: You have so much control and then so much is out of your control. 

[00:12:27] Jenna James: Exactly. . Yeah. I didn't wanna push him too hard to where he would shut down because he had been so open and honest with me so that was my biggest fear, was him just cutting me out of it completely. 

[00:12:40] Angela Kennecke: Yeah, I think I was always afraid of that with Emily too. Even as we were planning this intervention, and you may know we were three days away from holding the intervention when she died. So kind of a similar thing with, those timelines. we were so close, you know, so close, but yet kind of cliche yet so far, because we didn't know what we were really dealing with. We didn't know about the fentanyl or that that could be a possibility. So I think that it's just so hard because we all want to second guess ourselves. You know, what could we have done earlier, sooner? But I don't know that there's an answer for that. It is what it. . 

[00:13:16] Jenna James: And now when everyone says, don't blame yourself. But as a parent, it's hard not to. That's your child, that's your responsibility. Adult or not. You feel guilty for it. You feel responsible, 

[00:13:28] Angela Kennecke: right? But you aren't. I can tell you that you aren't.

And it took me a little more time to get to that point where I miss my daughter horribly and I would do anything in the world to get her back, but I know what happened to her is not my fault, and there's nothing to feel guilty about because I was being the best mom I could be with the information I had at the time.

Sounds like that's what you were doing too. 

[00:13:53] Jenna James: Trying trying to, 

[00:13:55] Angela Kennecke: yeah. Yeah. So five days goes by, things are pretty normal. He's in your house. And then tell me about what happened then. 

[00:14:05] Jenna James: So it was a Monday night. He had come home from work, he was tired. We ate dinner together, we watched videos, we laughed, and then I had to be to work the next day and I go to bed early all the time if I can help it. So I had kissed him goodnight and went to bed around 10 o'clock and he went upstairs to play games with his dad.

His dad kissed him goodnight between 1230 and one and Bam came into his room. I woke up the next day. My husband and my youngest son, Aiden, were already gone to work in school. They'd get up before the rest of us, they're quiet and they go I had to go feed my birds and the room that they're in faces the front of the house.

So I just happened to look out the window and I see my son's car in the driveway, and my first thought is, I'm disappointed. You know, you haven't been home more than a week and you're already sleeping in late, and you're gonna be late to work. 

So I went up the stairs kind of in a huff, and I don't know what caused me to pause like I did.

When I got to his door, I just, my heart sank. I just had this feeling and I knocked. And he's lived with me, you know, for many, many years. I knock on his door, he yells at me to go away, and that's what I was expecting, but there was no answer. And so as soon as I opened the door, I knew right away he had slid off of his bed and he was laying on the floor, and I could see the lividity where his arm was lowest.

I could see the blood settling, and his face was purple. And I knew immediately, I just started screaming. And I ran downstairs to get my phone and she tried to talk me through c p r, but once I tried to move, cuz one of his arms was over his chest when I tried to move it, I just knew. I'm like, I, I can't.

He's gone and he's been gone for hours.

Sorry. 

[00:16:09] Angela Kennecke: Don't be sorry. I know the trauma. I did not find my daughter, but I arrived at the same time as emergency personnel arrived at her apartment and I was there, and after they got done working on her and they couldn't do anymore, and I was with her, and nobody can understand what that is like unless you've been through it.

 And I think about the trauma and I think about reliving that scene in my mind. And I'm sure you relive the scene in your mind every single day. 

[00:16:42] Jenna James: Yep. I've gotten to the point where if I start to see the scene in my mind, I can shut it down and I can move away from it. But for the first couple months after he passed, it would just replay over and over. 

It took nine minutes for the paramedics to get here. So it was nine minutes that I was here alone with his body, knowing that there was just nothing that could be done. And when they walked in, they didn't even touch him because it was so obvious that he was gone. They just called the coroner.. 

[00:17:13] Angela Kennecke: Just complete devastation and also, , it leaves you with that empty hollow feeling. Do you know what I mean? 

[00:17:21] Jenna James: Absolutely. 

[00:17:22] Angela Kennecke: There is no peace in that. I've talked to other parents who lost children, who had a sense of peace. Maybe their child was dying of cancer, or are there very religious people that had a religious experience when their child died. I've talked to people like that before.

I didn't experience that. It felt to me when I was with my daughter's body after she died as. death were nothing. It's like nothingness. That's what it felt like to me. Did you feel that way? 

[00:17:50] Jenna James: I don't know if I'd explain it that way. I felt very fragile. Like anything that I loved could be gone because one of the most important things that I loved was gone. So I just, I felt very fragile and that the world was just breaking down around me. I don't know if that's a great description of it. And I still feel that way. I'm terrified when my husband and my younger son get in the car and drive off together because that's the rest of my world right there. 

[00:18:20] Angela Kennecke: Oh, I get that. I have to fight that feeling. My two kids headed back to college, and I cannot act panicky around them. I don't want them to worry about me, but we know you and I know. that your life can change in an instant. That you can lose someone you love and you were never expecting it.

You could be completely blindsided it and if it happened once, it can happen more than once, And everybody should know that, but they don't. I think people walk around feeling sort of protected or everyone sort of thinks they have another day and we know the truth. 

[00:18:52] Jenna James: Yeah. We're not promised the next minute, so. 

[00:18:56] Angela Kennecke: Right. And I think that wanting to hold on to what you have left is a real natural reaction to that reality. That reality of it. Right. And so it's somehow finding some peace in there. And I have to say, you know, when I talk about the trauma, of my daughter's death and being there.

I don't know if, I think it's better to not have been allowed, cuz I know sometimes when someone dies, the parent's not allowed to be near their child. Right? Or maybe there's something good about actually being the one to see that they're gone because I guess you can't deny it.

[00:19:33] Jenna James: Yeah, his father is in Florida. My husband is his stepdad, and to him it was denial. Like, I, I didn't see it, so it can't be true. I don't wanna believe it. So, in a sense, while I, hate having the memory, at least I was able to own his death from day one.

And then also, I don't think he would want anyone other than his mother to find him in such a fragile position. I mean, I'm sure once you pass on you don't care. But I'm thinking of the human Brandon and he wouldn't want anyone else to see him that way. He wouldn't want his friends to find him that way, if that makes sense.

[00:20:11] Angela Kennecke: Yeah, it does. It does make sense.

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[00:20:14] Angela Kennecke: What doesn't make sense are the thousands of people dying every year from synthetic opioids such as fentanyl? Right now, more than 200 people die every day. In New York City alone, someone suffers a deadly overdose every three hours.

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[00:20:32] Angela Kennecke: did the police say, when, when they came and they took his body away, did they say they thought it was fentanyl? 

[00:20:38] Jenna James: So 

[00:20:39] Angela Kennecke: that's what they did with my daughter too. They said, we think it, it's Fentanyl. 

[00:20:43] Jenna James: They wanted me to clean his room with a mask on and with gloves cuz they're like, you know, we didn't find any pills in his room, but anything that it came in contact with the powder left behind could be dangerous to you. So that's what brought Fentanyl into the picture in our situation was what they said.

[00:21:03] Angela Kennecke: And then when did you get the results from his autopsy? 

[00:21:07] Jenna James: It took about three months here in my county. 

[00:21:10] Angela Kennecke: Wow, that's a long time. 

[00:21:13] Jenna James: It is, but it happened right before Thanksgiving and then you had Christmas. I've heard a lot of people say it's a long time, but I know in larger, like more populated cities, that some people are nine months out before they get the results.

[00:21:28] Angela Kennecke: And what did the results tell you? 

[00:21:30] Jenna James: There was no Percocet in his system whatsoever. 

[00:21:33] Angela Kennecke: that pill was a hundred percent fentanyl? 

[00:21:35] Jenna James: Correct. 

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[00:21:37] Angela Kennecke: Jenna says her son had an extremely small dose of Fentanyl in his body, just enough to kill him. Fentanyl, which is estimated to be up to a hundred times more potent than morphine and significantly stronger than heroin, has been linked to a surge in drug related deaths. Unfortunately, many drug users are not aware that their drugs have been laced with the deadly substance, and too often the drug dealers aren't prosecuted.

[00:22:13] Jenna James: they wouldn't even look into my son's case. 

[00:22:15] Angela Kennecke: Who wouldn't look into it? The local sheriffs. 

[00:22:19] Jenna James: Yeah. There was nothing done. They took his phone and they brought it back to me saying they couldn't get into it, and I took it out of his hand, unlocked it, and I was like, , you couldn't get into the phone.

He is like, well, if you want, I'll take it back. But just the way he was talking, I didn't get the impression that if I gave it back to them, they would do anything with it. So I kept it. 

 was just another drug addict and I was like, just it's my son. Like when I was calling him asking for any information, it finally took me bawling on his answering machine saying, it's just another body to you, but this is my son. Please talk to me. And then I finally got a call back and that was like four weeks after he died. But the callback was just to tell me they'd release his phone back to me cuz they couldn't do anything with it. 

[00:23:09] Angela Kennecke: Did they say why they couldn't pursue any kind of legal. 

[00:23:13] Jenna James: No I knew who gave my son the fentanyl. I don't blame him. It took many months for me to stop doing that because originally I wouldn't let him come to the funeral. I did blame him very much, but that person didn't know what he was getting either. But that person also knows who the dealer is. 

[00:23:36] Angela Kennecke: A higher level dealer,

[00:23:36] Jenna James: have that information to give and they just don't want to take it so,

[00:23:42] Angela Kennecke: Well that's very unfortunate because we need to get as many of these dealers and as much of this fentanyl off the streets cuz it's just gonna kill more people. And these are all somebody's sons and somebody's daughters. 

[00:23:53] Jenna James: Right. 

[00:23:54] Angela Kennecke: And I'm very fortunate that there was prosecution I've been told by prosecutors, it's very hard to prove that it was, that particular pill got from that particular dealer because of the time that might go between when they get the pill and when they take the pill, that kind of thing. But I know they can be hard cases to prosecute, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't try because it sends a message. How are we gonna end this if we can't stop the dealers and get the fentanyl off the streets and stop it from coming into this country? 

[00:24:23] Jenna James: Right. Right. 

[00:24:24] Angela Kennecke: I'm sorry that you had to deal with that feeling of like, your son didn't matter, like what happened to him, didn't matter. 

It's only been just a little over a year for you. How are you 

[00:24:35] Jenna James: I go back and forth. I'll feel really strong for a couple of weeks or maybe even a month. And then the next month, I feel like it's close to day one. Again, I wouldn't say day one because I remember sitting at my kitchen area just staring at the wall. Just the feeling. I can't explain, I don't feel that anymore. I don't feel shell shocked or I can't put words to the feeling that I felt for the first week after his death. I was just so at a loss. 

[00:25:06] Angela Kennecke: Yeah, there aren't words. 

[00:25:08] Jenna James: Yeah. 

[00:25:08] Angela Kennecke: And I think you were in shock. I mean, the brain was in shock.

 Your whole world got tipped upside down and there aren't really words for it. We don't have something in our English language to explain. , 

[00:25:17] Jenna James: I think you're right. And then when his birthday came, three days after Christmas, I was okay on Christmas because I had to worry about Aiden and his Christmas and his experience and then his birthday being three days after I lost it, cuz that was his day. That was all about him and I didn't want to face the day. 

[00:25:37] Angela Kennecke: grief is tricky that way because it, it's haunting, right? So you think you're doing fine and then all of a sudden it's back or something triggers it. And that's something we can't really control. The rest of the world thinks after a few weeks or a few months, you should be able to just be fine now, right?

You've dealt with your grief, you should be fine. But the sneaky thing about it is it just can come back in full force. Waves of it at times you don't expect, right? 

[00:26:08] Jenna James: I was gonna say the weirdest things trigger me with him. I have the car that he bought right before he passed. I was able to take over that loan and I see the car every day. But if a car that looks exactly like it passes me, I'm a crying mess. It's the weirdest triggers. 

[00:26:26] Angela Kennecke: Yeah, I agree. For me, it's if I see a young girl with her hair up in a bun the way my daughter always wore it, that's a trigger, right?

It is strange. I agree with you on that. 

So in the aftermath of all this, how are you honoring Bam's life? What's important for you to do? . 

[00:26:45] Jenna James: Well, I'm gonna be honest. In the beginning when I first found out what it was, I didn't want to share his story. I felt that he would be judged and nobody would think of his death the same way.

If they knew what caused it. And I was speaking to one of his good friends and I was telling her the results, and I was like, I, I don't want you to share that information. Say that his heart gave out because he was, you know, larger. And she's like, stop. She goes, I will tell people whatever you want, but anyone who knew Bam and loved Bam is not gonna care whatsoever. What took him out, whether it was fentanyl or his heart, it's not gonna matter. And that opened my eyes to 

she was right and I needed to get his story out because his friends are taking the same thing. That's who he's getting it from. They don't know what they're taking. And it was probably February when I got that news that I started sharing on Facebook and I started telling my story and I met a local group here. At a restaurant. I just happened to walk past ladies with Fentanyl kills you shirts, and now we advocate. We stand out on our city street corners holding big signs. we just hold signs of our children and try to let people know one pill can kill you, whether you're addicted or you're trying anything. It's just advocating. It's the only thing that's keeping me sane right now. 

[00:28:12] Angela Kennecke: Yeah, advocating really helped me and continues to help me. And I think your feelings about not wanting to say how he died are what every parent goes through. That shame, that stigma that's associated with this kind of death, fentanyl poisoning or overdose, either one.

I think so Common and I didn't initially say how Emily had died, like in her obituary. I didn't say it. . But when I heard people spreading rumors around my community about how my daughter had died, I just thought, I want to own it. And if it can help one other person, if one other parent doesn't have to go through what you and I have been through then I don't care. I don't care what anyone else thinks. I don't care what they think of her or of me because I know the truth. 

I commend you for doing that and for standing on the street corner with your son's picture and raising awareness about fentanyl. You just don't know who you're going to touch.

[00:29:11] Jenna James: Right. 

[00:29:12] Angela Kennecke: And the response to you on TikTok has been pretty good as well. have you heard back from people who see your videos his story? 

[00:29:19] Jenna James: There will be. Many, many comments. And the majority of them are me too, my son, my daughter, like I have met so many women. Two of them you've interviewed on your podcast that I have a relationship with. Just through advocating. 

We all went to um, Washington and marched to the White House to try and get some change. So there's been a lot of good response. Some negative, but I try to delete it and not look at it because I don't wanna dwell on it. It's hard not to, you know? But I try not to. 

[00:29:57] Angela Kennecke: And that's what I found too. I always say it's about 98% are supportive and positive. It's that 2% negative that sticks out in our human brains for some reason. For some reason, the negative is, overshadows the positive and no matter what. It's too bad that that's present and hopefully we'll work toward a day where there's just, people see addiction as a disease of the brain, and also that this stigma around this kind of death is gone. I mean, that's really what I hope happens. . 

[00:30:29] Jenna James: I want it to happen and I pray to God it doesn't take half of our nation succumbing to this 

[00:30:36] Angela Kennecke: No. 

[00:30:36] Jenna James: For that to even happen because that's what it feels like right now. 

[00:30:39] Angela Kennecke: It does because so many people are dying and young people, 

[00:30:44] Jenna James: so young. I've seen infants on the wall at the DEA Museum. There was an 18 month old 14 year old, 13 year old . That's insane to me. You can't look at these children and say they chose that, which is what a lot of people say about addicts. They didn't choose that, and I don't believe the addicts did either. They didn't want to die, they just wanted to feel better. Whatever was wrong with them. Right? 

[00:31:11] Angela Kennecke: And in most cases it's mental health issue. Mental health and addiction of course, go hand in. , 

[00:31:17] Jenna James: right? 

[00:31:17] Angela Kennecke: And we're starting to have a better understanding, I think, and more empathy and compassion in our society for mental health. And I think eventually that will roll over into addiction as well.

[00:31:30] Jenna James: I hope so. And I hate to admit this, but years ago I would classify myself as on the ignorant side. I had my thoughts and opinions and you couldn't change my mind. And then people that I loved battled addiction and beat it. And it, when it touches you, so close you kind of look at it differently.

[00:31:51] Angela Kennecke: also, I think that this kind of thing wasn't supposed to happen in my family. You know, I was a very active, involved mom and I had talked to my kids just like you talked to your kids. And it's not the way that our stories were supposed to go with our children, with our families, you know? And I think all of those hopes and dreams that are dashed when you lose a 21 year old, you know, I think about that all the time, and I'm sure you feel the same way. You'll never see 'em get married, you'll never see 'em have children. You'll never see 'em realize their career dreams or any, you know, just do things in life. And it's just such a tough thing to live with. 

[00:32:31] Jenna James: That heartbreaking. 

[00:32:32] Angela Kennecke: Yeah, it's heartbreaking. Yeah. Because whatever phase Bam was going through, whatever he was dealing with, if Fentanyl hadn't been part of the picture, , he would've gotten out of that 

[00:32:45] Jenna James: and that's what I truly believe. When he moved into our home, yes it was to help him with what was going on. But he had a goal, his life goal at that moment was to get into a house of his own. And he had taken the steps with getting that great job and trying to better himself to really get in line for that. And I'll never get to help him do that. And that hurts. 

And I used to tell him all the time, I don't wanna be a young grandma, but now I don't even have the option to be one for his baby. 

[00:33:23] Angela Kennecke: I know I think about that too, cuz I talked to grandparents raising grandchildren Right. Who've lost their kids to fentanyl poisoning.

And that's a tough situation to be in as well. But yet I think it would be nice sometimes, I didn't want Emily to have a child before the age of 21, you know? But I think it would be nice to have a little piece of her left on the earth and we won't get that. 

[00:33:45] Jenna James: That's exactly what I was thinking. It's like a slice of. to hold, you know? 

[00:33:51] Angela Kennecke: Right, right. 

[00:33:53] Jenna James: But I wouldn't want his child to go without him either. So it's It's a double-edged sword. 

[00:33:58] Angela Kennecke: Right, . It's just those ideas of those hopes and dreams that are just shattered for parents. I think when we go through something like this and coming to the acceptance, , this is reality for us. What do we do now? 

And I think you and I are of like minds, where we are trying to get the word out and prevent these kinds of deaths. It's just so unnecessary. 

[00:34:25] Jenna James: Absolutely. 

[00:34:26] Angela Kennecke: We shouldn't even be talking right now. We shouldn't even know each other. But until we can get a handle on this fentanyl issue I am glad that there are lots of other mothers. that are like us trying to make a difference. And I think that's what it's gonna take really. 

[00:34:41] Jenna James: Yeah. I mean, in the beginning I was isolating myself and I felt like I was gonna go nowhere with my grief, and it was putting myself out there, putting Bams story out there that brought me this amazing support group of other moms.

And another big thing that I try to push is for mothers to reach out to us because. , I didn't think I'd be able to handle moving on, and I'm still kind of stuck in a place where I'm not completely moved on. But this support group has made it seem possible. When I'm down, I can call one of the angel moms.

 We do lives every Friday on TikTok just to talk about grief and where we're at. And it, we keep getting more moms every time that we. 

[00:35:29] Angela Kennecke: Yeah, unfortunately there's more and more of us out there and you really will never move on, but you will move forward in your life. And it seems like when you're buried in grief, and I think the first year, two years especially, I mean I hate to say it going on year five here, I can't believe that I've actually survived that long cuz you don't feel like you can sometimes, survive without your child.

And time doesn't heal all wounds, but it gives you what you need maybe to work on being able to live your life and find joy while you carry this grief and the burden of it. 

[00:36:06] Jenna James: The strength to carry the burden.

[00:36:08] Angela Kennecke: Right, right, right. That's so true.

Well, I wanna thank you for sharing your story. Thank you for sharing it publicly, and thank you for sharing it with us. I just think it makes a big difference and I'm grateful to know you and I am so sorry for the loss of Bam. 

[00:36:27] Jenna James: Thank you very much. I'm sorry for the loss of Emily and I really appreciate, even though I'm a nervous wreck for you giving me this chance to tell his story, cuz that means the world to me.

[00:36:39] Angela Kennecke: I'm happy to do it. (MUSIC UP!) Thank you for listening to this episode of Grieving Out Loud. If you found it helpful, please consider leaving us a positive review and a five star rating. Your feedback helps us reach more people who made benefit from these conversations. This podcast is part of our charity's mission, and we would love for you to support the show.

Just visit our website at Emily's Hope dot charity to make a donation. Thank you again for tuning in. Remember, no matter what you're going through, you're not alone. We'll be back next week with another episode of Grieving Out Loud. In the meantime, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. This podcast is produced by Casey Wonnenberg-King and Anna Fey.

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