[00:00:00] Brian Wall: I was on display all the time, a lot of stress. It got to me performance anxiety. 

[00:00:09] Angela Kennecke: Brian Wall's dedication and determination earned him a college swimming scholarship and brought him incredibly close to achieving Olympic trial cuts. But the pressure of competition became overwhelming and he turned to drugs to cope. 

[00:00:28] Brian Wall:  even when I was in the pool, I did drugs in the locker room, then went to practice and it got outta hand.

 I found the one thing that I adored, and that was cocaine and alcohol, which is not a good mix in any level. And, and I took it to the nth degree and it destroyed everything that was me and lost my scholarship came back home, was kicked outta my house.

[00:00:45] Angela Kennecke: After much struggle, Brian has now dedicated his life to helping others hear his advice in this week's episode of Grieving Out Loud.

[00:00:58] Brian Wall: I think most of the clients I, I work with deal with the same stuff.

some kind of pain, uncertainty or just this this constant effort. Those three things that they're constantly trying to avoid, they're unavoidable. They're running away from 'em. And that, that's resistance. and a lot of times I think if we stick with the flow rather than resist the flow good things come

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:01:19] Angela Kennecke: Hi, I'm Angela Kennecke, and this podcast is very personal to me. I started it after my daughter Emily died from fentanyl poisoning at just 21 years old. It has been a difficult journey, but this podcast, along with my charity, Emily's Hope, is dedicated to spreading awareness and reducing stigma surrounding substance use disorder to prevent future tragedies like, So pull up a chair and let's have a real conversation about one of the biggest epidemics facing our country.

Brian, welcome to the podcast. It is so great to finally connect with you. We tried a few months ago and weren't able to actually get together, but I'm anxious to talk to you and I wanna learn a little bit more about your background. 

[00:02:09] Brian Wall: Yeah. 

[00:02:10] Angela Kennecke: Where did you grow up and, and how did you get into this field of addiction?

[00:02:13] Brian Wall: Yeah. Not a pretty journey. It was not one that was planned. I'm a Carolina boy, born and raised in North Carolina, central part of North Carolina, I used to swim my whole life. and swim in college under a scholarship and had.

pretty close to Olympic trial cuts in a couple events at one point. 

 That was a main focus of my life every day, twice a day, morning and night weights in between school when I could fit it in. It was just a very busy schedule, and that became a big part of who I am, my discipline, et cetera, my structure, everything that I, I really made decisions off of was based a lot on what we did in the pool, honestly.

And so, going throughout that process, I. Began to get a lot better at swimming. And that created a lot of stress because there was more time limits more cuts I had to meet and to get to the next you know, national meet or junior national meet or whatever it was. And of course to get certain cuts to get scholarships for the colleges I wanted to go to.

And so that created a lot of stress and I remember girlfriend when I was 15 was about to go off to college or I was starting to look at colleges and I told her, you know, one thing she was worried about she had her her brother was in college. She was an older girl and she was about to go to college.

And so she told me like, oh gosh, she never do drugs and drink and all that stuff. And I wasn't doing any of that at the time and told her, oh, I'm never gonna do that. Never. That's never gonna happen. I'm serious about this. I'm gonna be this and that. . And so I sure enough got to college and the stress got to me and, and I found out that I also had some other gifts socially and was really good with people.

And so I really put more attention into that and that led to a lot of things that I wish I hadn't done, but created a journey of my own and gathered a lot of wisdom along that journey. And I was initially in college, I was prem. and wanted to be an orthopedic surgeon. Cause I almost lost my right foot when I was very young from stepping on a rusty nail and was able to keep it still numb on the heel.

Lots of surgeries, grateful to have my leg and my, my foot and all that. But that was a part of my journey. So it wa it had a big impact on me and something I wanted to pass on as well. Be going to med school, you know. 

[00:04:07] Angela Kennecke: So how did you get from, being a swimmer to wanting to go to med school, to going into the field of addiction and recovery?

[00:04:14] Brian Wall: Yeah, so once the social setting set in and I, I began to do a lot more of what was going on in college at the time. I, I found the one thing that I adored, and that was cocaine and alcohol, which is not a good mix in any level. And, and I took it to the nth degree and it destroyed everything that was me and lost my scholarship came back home, was kicked outta my house.

That led to me using everything else under the sun that I could get my hands on. And created a lot of failures, a lot of struggles, a lot of turmoil, 

[00:04:43] Angela Kennecke: So they were causing a lot of turmoil and problems in your life and what was it that kept you doing them at the time? 

[00:04:49] Brian Wall: Yeah. the natural process of addiction was in the mix. Certainly, I didn't know nearly as much as I know now about addiction and could have shielded myself from a lot of stuff, but I'd known all that. But then also I think it was a great crutch for me because you know, I was in college and trying my best to perform. Prancing around in a, a speedo, they didn't, you know, back then we didn't wear what they wear now. We wore much, much less. So we're prancing around in these Speedos, you know, so I was on display all the time, a lot of stress. It got to me performance anxiety. And so you know, when I wasn't in the, even when I was in the pool, I did drugs in the locker room, then went to practice and it got outta hand.

Yeah, I mean, I, I can remember tripping on acid while during practice and, and coming into practice and doing lines in the bathroom. bumps in the back, whatever I could get to get myself through the practice. And it just got out of hand. But initially it offered me some distraction from the stress that I was feeling and helped me feel somewhat in control.

And so then it became an addiction and it, but when, when it's not a problem till it becomes a problem. Right. And when it did, I was too deep. 

[00:05:51] Angela Kennecke: At what point was there a turning point where you knew you couldn't have that in your life anymore? Or how did you come to the realization that you had to stop? 

[00:05:59] Brian Wall: so I lost my scholarship. That was pretty embarrassing. And it was because the coach was very direct with me and knew, he told me he knew I was using cocaine and that was not acceptable and he was not gonna pay for me to do that. So kicked me off the team and I didn't want to go to class. I wasn't very good at that piece of it at the tim e. ended up later on doing very well with finish up my undergrad and my grad degree when I was interested. Right. But, but at the time it was I think probably losing my scholarship heading back home and realizing that I was gonna have a hard time making a living. And then I realized I was really good with people and I could apply that to the restaurant industry.

So I was in the restaurant industry for seven years and did very, and then I got married and then my marriage fell apart because, you know, it never was completely out of the picture, the coke and the use of the party, but was never really completely out of the picture.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:06:46] Angela Kennecke: Even after Brian went back to school and got his master's degree in counseling and psychology, he still battled substance use disorder. It took his coworkers noticing and stepping in in order to make a real difference.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:07:03] Brian Wall: it happened in, 2015. I went to, Work in Michigan I was a clinical supervisor at a, a facility there and had been drinking the night before watching a Warrior's game. Went to work the next day and they, you know, they smelled alcohol on my breath and ended up going through the whole rigamarole of what they did to hold me accountable, in which I'm grateful, hated him at the time, but glad they did cuz it sent me through a three year program. for professionals, healthcare for professionals to get the help that they need. 

 And one of the big revelations I had, . I was drinking a lot up to that point. , I'm kind of a functioning or was kind of a functioning alcoholic. I could, I could drink a, a good amount of alcohol throughout the entire day and function fine and go to meetings and run the meetings and everything would be fine.

I'm not convinced nobody noticed. I think probably just cuz I was, whatever title I had at the time, maybe they just don't wanna confront me about it. I wish they had earlier on and it hadn't maybe led to what it did, but it did and it was a good outcome, and I'm grateful, b ut that whole process I can remember, it was the first six months were like pulling teeth out. I mean, it was a really hard first six months. I mean, that was a difficult time for me. 

[00:08:12] Angela Kennecke: what kept you motivated to get through that time? , 

[00:08:15] Brian Wall: my license was on the line. 

[00:08:16] Angela Kennecke: Oh. You know, so you had a lot to lose. 

[00:08:18] Brian Wall: Yeah. My livelihood. 

[00:08:19] Angela Kennecke: Mm-hmm. . 

[00:08:20] Brian Wall: So that was a good thing. And I think the good Lord just knew he had to lay down some heavy, some heavy gold on the table, for me to go all in.

And, and that's what worked for me. I had to have some hands around my neck. And again, I'm grateful for that. That first six months was really tough. probably the first six months was the first like moment I. and then the year mark. I still remember experiencing some post-acute withdrawal symptoms on occasion.

And, but after a year, I really felt like I was finally out of the woods. The second year I really enjoyed it. The third year I was kinda like, okay, let's get done with this already. You know, this is a lot of work and I'm not that I wanna go back and drink. I'm just, I got it. I'm not looking to go back and do all that.

I'm just ready to be done with this program. and they know all that. They set it up purposely like that. So the third year was what I needed to really submit that in. 

[00:09:07] Angela Kennecke: Well, and I think that's part of the problem we have is that people don't get that long term attention to work a program for three years.

[00:09:15] Brian Wall: Yeah. 

[00:09:16] Angela Kennecke: They go in for 30 days. Maybe there's a little aftercare, maybe not. That's not enough to rewire your brain. 

[00:09:22] Brian Wall: that's exactly why I bring it up. That's exactly what I needed and that was what was effective. And if I'd gone to a 30 day program I, I'd have no doubt that it would've failed.

Absolutely. I mean, there was a, there was a point in there when I went to partial hospitalization and it's difficult to treat a therapist. , you know, a, the therapist need to see therapists because they can call us out on our bull, right? . So if we're, you know, but if you're seeing someone that's kind of newer and a lot of these treatment facilities had these newer intern level or just newly licensed folks and, you know, with 20 years in the field, it was like I was kind of seeing through their stuff.

I could see that they're just terrified about trying to figure me out and it just, it didn't do any good, so when I got into the program that I was in, the therapist that I had, super incredible guy. He was in recovery himself. I had more experience in the industry, but he had more experience in recovery. So he knew the signs that I was showing when I was trying to finagle something or I was trying to work my way around something or um, yeah, and he called me out on it, and that's exactly what I needed. 

[00:10:20] Angela Kennecke: You know, the one thing that struck me when you were talking about your own personal story, you're talking about pressures, you're talking about stress. Do you think that most people do use substances or start using them because of pressure or stress or depression? Or, let's talk a little bit about mental health and how mental health and addiction, I always say it's like the chicken and the egg. Do the mental health issues come first, or do the addictions create mental health problems? 

[00:10:50] Brian Wall: Good question. I think more importantly than answering that question is to recognize that yeah, they do lay in the same bed and I think they're probably the twins in the family, not even brother, sister. I think they're so closely related. It's oftentimes ignored. And I'm so glad that we're in a place in our industry that we're bringing awareness to that cuz it's so important. I think for me I know me better than anything else. And so I, I think probably for me a lot of the triggers were stress and anxiety, fear, uncertainty, pain this reality that I created for myself that wasn't true.

You know, if I can get here, then everything's gonna be okay, you know? So I was always chasing this ghost So for me that was kind of what it is. And I don't think I'm abnormal. I think for, for the most part, I'm a pretty normal guy and probably most people, at least the clients that I deal with struggle with the same stuff That leads to the same patterns of behavior at time.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:11:39] Angela Kennecke: Besides anxiety, Brian says another one of his triggers was grief. That's not surprising. Research shows a link between the loss of a significant person and substance use. In fact, young adults who experience multiple deaths in a short period of time are twice as likely to develop a substance use disorder.  (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:12:01] Brian Wall: So I lost my wife of almost 15 years to cancer. uh, In 2013, and me and my four-year-old daughter were left at the time. She's 13 now. Doing well. And then I've remarried having a five-year-old daughter now. And, and so when I lost my wife, there was a lot of grief and loss, obviously there that I experienced, and was trekking through.

And that led to escalated use. I, I started smoking crack drinking an excess. I mean, I was a mess. . And so brought that into the new marriage, which was a terrific idea, right? So we sorted through all that and then this thing happened you know, with the work and, and the treatment process I went through for three years. And during that three years, such an intense process with individual and group counseling that I was able to, and I really think this was God's plan. I was able to work through that grief and loss. And when I came out the other side, I can remember. not wanting a drink at all, not looking for one or, you know, it wasn't anything I had had any thoughts about.

And probably about probably about three months after I had finished that treatment process, I was in the grocery store and I walked by the beer aisle and I was like, Hmm, I don't know. Maybe I'll have a drink and I got a six pack. I would usually finish that six pack with no problem the first night, and I would never leave a beer for the next day. just like a thing with me. If it's here, we gotta finish it. I had one beer, it took me probably an hour and a half to finish and I didn't want another one. And it hit me that I was driving a lot of my drinking on a lot of unresolved grief that I hadn't worked through. And now that I was in this healthier place, I didn't need that. to cover up anything or to deal with anything or to stuff? Any emotion. I didn't, I didn't need it. I didn't want it. 

[00:13:37] Angela Kennecke: because you had worked through your grief, your grief, the loss of your first wife. And I think that a lot. There are a lot of people, I mean, I've experienced intense grief and I realized pretty early on that there wasn't a pill or a drink that could fix it, that I had to just experience it. Right. But I think a lot of people are looking to, basically mask those feelings and. End up drinking a lot, especially which drinking is a, it's a depressant. You know, alcohol's a depressant, so you just get mm-hmm. Sadder, really . I mean, it doesn't really help the grieving process, but, and even I, you know, I've even heard of people drinking themselves to death after the loss of loved one.

In fact, I've heard of a couple of cases of that. Within people I know. So I don't think it's that unusual. 

[00:14:21] Brian Wall: , no, I don't think so either. And I think I could have very easily been the next statistic in that category. But thankfully God had other plans and I had some good people around me that were concerned and called me out and got me in the program that I needed to be in and opened my eyes to a lot of things and gave me, gave me time to work through a lot of that pain.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:14:38] Angela Kennecke: when Brian said he bought beer at a grocery store, you may have questioned why he would drink alcohol. Since he suffers from substance use disorder.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:14:48] Angela Kennecke: Do you ever worry about relapse? ? 

[00:14:52] Brian Wall: No. No, not at all. No, because I have the tools that I need to recover, right?

So right now, I do drink, I practice harm reduction. my wife and I, we think, through and, and talk through, upcoming events and, Hey, are we gonna drink at this event? Is it a safe event that you look at 

[00:15:06] Angela Kennecke: now? See, you, you would, do you ever get criticism for that? Do you ever hear, well, you shouldn't be doing anything if you have a problem with substance. 

[00:15:13] Brian Wall: no one's ever said anything directly to me. not that I would, I would care. Everybody's got their own journey, right? 

[00:15:20] Angela Kennecke: but this is the debate that's out there. You know, if you were using heroin for example, I'm not saying you were, but for example, if you were using heroin, should you still be able to smoke weed if you're not doing heroin anymore, if you were using cocaine or other drugs, should you still consume alcohol from time to time?

How do you know if you should or not? and if you have someone around you how do you know what to support? Yeah, that's hard. 

[00:15:44] Brian Wall: It's, it, it is hard. You gotta have another set of eyes on it. And that's what I was mentioning. My, wife and I. . We are both in recovery. We both practice harm reduction. And so we're both constantly talking through like, okay, who's gonna be there? Is this a, a risky environment that we're gonna be in? And then we call each other out. when we're in those moments, if we are looking like we're getting heated about something or we have a conversation with someone, we're seeing triggers pushed buttons pushed and triggers flying, then we might approach each other and go, Hey, you know, let's let's get. or, Hey. 

[00:16:10] Angela Kennecke: So would you say that you're a moderate drinker, an occasional drinker today? Or what would you classify it as? 

[00:16:17] Brian Wall: Oh, 

I would say probably, you know, during the holiday season, probably more moderate. Any other time, I'm usually so busy I don't quite get around to it.

There's been times when I'll go through my day and think I, I'd love to have a drink tonight. I don't really quite get to it cuz I'm too tired and I go to bed , you know, so, 

[00:16:33] Angela Kennecke: okay. It's so like, most, like most people, so that, it's interesting to me cuz if you were a heavy drinker at one point, you know, basically you said an alcoholic, that you're able to not continue drinking 

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:16:45] Angela Kennecke: Everyone's path to recovery is different, but Brian has noticed that many people who struggle with substance use disorder share similarities along the way.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:17:00] Brian Wall: I don't know if you've seen the documentary that Jonah Hill did called Stutts on Netflix.

Super awesome. Dr. Phil Stutts is his therapist and he did this documentary on his relationship with his therapist and these tools that he used to bring him out of depression and anxiety and all these things that he was struggling with and on in this documentary. And I don't disagree with him.

One thing that Dr. Stutz makes very clear is that pain, uncertainty, and constant effort are three things that we absolutely cannot avoid in life. They will always exist no matter what. No matter how wealthy you are or how famous you are, it, it doesn't matter how big the house is, the car, nothing.

 everybody has the same stuff. Those three things are unavoidable, right? And without vulnerability, there can be no progress. And the cool thing, with pain, uncertainty, and constant effort, it creates this need for change because you don't wanna feel that way anymore. And that in turn leads into that progress, right?

Because eventually you have to admit the fact that this stuff exists and I don't know what to do with it. Then you get the guidance change happens for the better progress is, is in place. That's all good stuff. So I think that you know, if I could categorize it, I think most of the clients I work with deal with the same stuff. some kind of pain, uncertainty or just this constant effort. Those three things that they're constantly trying to avoid, they're unavoidable. They're running away from 'em. And that, that's resistance. And, and a lot of times I think if we stick with the flow rather than resist the flow good things come, 

So that's what I try to lead clients into. Embrace it. Let's find out how we can get these three things to work in your favor, cuz they ain't going away, so what are we gonna do with them? , 

[00:18:34] Angela Kennecke: how effective has that been for people that you've treated? 

[00:18:38] Brian Wall: It's very effective for people that want change in their life for the better.

Oftentimes. 

[00:18:42] Angela Kennecke: Yeah. See, that's, that's the thing. Like a lot of times people are like, I wanna keep doing this. Or they deny it's a problem and it just seems to keep spiraling downward. to the point of death today, obviously our deaths are on the rise. I just think we have a lot of people who. are currently living or have a loved one who is struggling, who listen to this podcast, and I always wanna have people leave them with, you know, the best advice possible because 

[00:19:09] Brian Wall: mm-hmm. , 

[00:19:09] Angela Kennecke: I know we can't really control another human being, but are there ways that you would suggest that people help someone if they're living in a home with somebody who's using substances or abusing substances?

Actively, 

[00:19:22] Brian Wall: That's a difficult question. And it's scary because the response is not very fun, you know? My first thought would be to meet 'em where they're at hear their story, what got 'em there. But at the same time, you know, if you've got someone using in your house, You have put some accountability in place. Boundaries have to be there. They have to know that you cannot do that. , especially if it's a minor, they shouldn't, you know, that shouldn't be happening anyway. But if it's an adult, they get to make their own decisions. And so if it's an older adult living with mom and dad, and that happens very often with the clients that I see I, I advise the parents that you, you gotta let 'em know like you're an adult, but you're not gonna kill yourself slowly here. That's not gonna happen. Boundaries are really important.

 on the question that you ask about you know, is that effective with the people that I work with? It is for those that want change. Those that are resistant to it are not necessarily not in it for change. It's just scary change can be very painful. So I have to take time to get to know the client, build that rapport, understand where they're at, what their fears are, and then work those fears in a way that adds to the, the strength that they need to push forward for change. that takes time. I have some clients that dive right in on day one, and they're very clear about the, I'm ready for this. I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired. I'm tired of my own crap. I'm ready to move forward. And they jump right in. 

[00:20:36] Angela Kennecke: I think that's the quandary that people are in right now is that you always hear someone has to be ready for treatment or there's studies out there though that show that if you do an intervention and you get someone to go into treatment, it can be just as effective as if they chose on their own.

However, with fentanyl in the drug supply, if you were doing cocaine today, I'd be really worried that you'd turn up dead tomorrow. I think you can't wait for that person to be ready. . 

[00:21:03] Brian Wall: Yeah. That's a difficult gosh, there's, that's, that's such a loaded question. There's so many components of that to figure out how do we get this back under control again, you know?

[00:21:11] Angela Kennecke: Right. Right. I know, and I don't expect you have all the answers. I'm just saying it's just a tough time for people because 

[00:21:18] Brian Wall: Yeah. 

[00:21:18] Angela Kennecke: and you've always heard, oh, they have to want it, they have to want the recovery. They have to be sick of, this life and what they're doing and what it's causing for them. But at the same time, , how can you afford to wait? 

[00:21:29] Brian Wall: it's crazy. It's scary. It makes no sense. and it's being fueled for all the wrong reasons, you know, at least on the street. I mean, like you just mentioned, it's like you can go out and buy cocaine nowadays and it's gonna have, you know, a fingernail fentanyl is gonna kill you. So there you go. And you were just going out to get whatever you're getting and now we're setting up a funeral for you, you know? One of the things I see more consistent than ever, and it really frustrates me. But it's part of the process and, and we need to do better is you have someone come to treatment and they are ready and they do really well in the treatment process and they're discharged and they land right back into their same setting with a family that's not as educated, not as on board, not as gungho or motivated to be the support that they need, and this is your problem. You figure it out, that sort of thing. And they just get back into the same stuff all over again because it's just too overwhelming. Overbearing to do it on their own. It's, it's scary, you know? And before you know it, they're back into the same pattern of behaviors. 

[00:22:23] Angela Kennecke: Right. I think that's part of the reason why people look at treatment for substance use disorder, and they kind of go uh, because relapse is so prevalent. and it tends to be part of the disease. Although the dangers of relapse are grave obviously. I just think that that is one thing. people, places things, right? So if you go back out, you go back to the same people places, or things you don't make and it's hard to make major changes in your life.

[00:22:49] Brian Wall: Yeah, yeah. It is. It takes routine. It's all muscle memory, right? So it's a lot of routine over and over and over again until your body realizes that that is what we're doing. Now, the, the way we used to do it is not an alternative anymore. This is the new way of doing things, 

[00:23:02] Angela Kennecke: so what do you think that we could be doing better in this country? Right. . 

[00:23:08] Brian Wall: Yeah. So I'm not real impressed with. most treatment centers that I've been in and their efforts to offer the most cutting edge treatment. I don't think we're doing that very well.

 we do a lot of really great marketing and great websites, and we, we push all this cutting edge stuff, but you get there and it's literally cookie cutter stuff. I mean, every treatment center's the same. From my experience, it's, it's not very different from the last I was at. Everybody's doing the same thing, offering the same stuff. It's in a different looking facility. Maybe. Maybe they. outside type of, you know, facilities that are more enjoyable to smoke a cigarette or whatever. But generally speaking, it's a lot of the same stuff. There's no one really jumping at the bit to get to the, to, to the front of the line and, and tap into a lot of these cutting edge treatments. There are some, there are some facilities, but for the most part, not many. 

[00:23:57] Angela Kennecke: So what kind of cutting edge treatments are you talking about? Like medically assisted? . 

[00:24:01] Brian Wall: Yeah. So you know, there's a lot of medication assisted treatment. I think psilocybin is up and coming. I think that'll be something that we could do phenomenal things for folks with.

[00:24:10] Angela Kennecke: Well, that's also controversial, right? But there's a lot of studies coming in on that. Sure. 

[00:24:14] Brian Wall: For sure. And I think it's because we gotta reeducate, you know, a lot of folks think of psilocybin as mushrooms and, oh, we're gonna trip. 

[00:24:20] Angela Kennecke: Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:21] Brian Wall: and it's like, no. in medicated managed doses. This has a lot of medicinal effects. Is very effective with chronic depression and related symptoms. So that, and ketamine, same thing. I have a number of clients on ketamine the ketamine spray. And they're doing phenomenal. I mean, they're having breakthroughs that they hadn't had with a number of other medications. I think it should almost be a requirement to have EMDR in treatment facilities. And you know, a lot of people are using a lot of DBT type neck techniques. . I would love to see treatment centers that were required to have D B T groups on a regular basis, or they wouldn't be licensed and some more EMDR offered. 

 (SOUND EFFECT!) All of these medications and therapies may be confusing, so I'll break it down a little. First off, Brian talked about psilocybin.. This year, Oregon became the first state in the nation to legalize the adult use of the naturally occurring psychedelic. It has shown significant promise for treating addiction, depression, and anxiety.

[00:25:14] Angela Kennecke: However, it's controversial because it does contain the same substance found in magic mushrooms. It's also still illegal at a federal level, but that could soon change the F D A 

granted psilocybin. Breakthrough Therapy status in 2018. That designation paved the way for clinical trials and researchers expect full F D a approval within the next couple of years.

Next Ketamine. Ketamine is a short-acting anesthetic drug with hallucinogenic effects. It's been widely used as an anesthesia during surgery, but studies show it can also be very helpful in treating depression and substance use disorder. If you listen to our last podcast, you're familiar with the next therapy. Brian talked about emdr. EMDR is short for eye movement desensitization and reprocessing therapy. It involves guiding patients through specific eye movements while processing a traumatic memory. Our last podcast guest, South Dakota Hall of Famer, Evelyn Leite, was a pioneer of E M D R.

[00:26:22] Evelyn Leite: A lot of the E M D R I do is with people who have had abusive childhoods, but when you're a child and you're being abused, you tell yourself, this is my fault. If I wouldn't have said that, if I wouldn't have done that, if I was better kid.

I wouldn't be abused. And when you're a battered wife, you tell yourself, oh, I shouldn't have said that. Oh gosh, I guess I shouldn't have done that. I guess I should have fixed dinner right on time instead of putting it off. And so it's what you tell yourself that is traumatic, not really what happens to you.

And so with E M D R, We take your deepest belief like I am worthless, and we work on it until your brain tells you you're worthwhile, you have purpose, you belong.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:27:17] Angela Kennecke: You can find out more about Brian's private practice Wings Recovery under this podcast on our website, Emily Hope Charity. While there, you can check out more Grieving Out Loud episodes. Read my blog and find resources to help with substance use disorder. This podcast is produced by Casey Wonnenberg King and Anna Fey.

Thanks for listening. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:27:47] Angela Kennecke: