(MUSIC UP!) ​

[00:00:05] Bridgette Norring:  I was like, I love you. Goof you. You're a goof. And he was like, I love you too, ma. And the next day he was, gone.

[00:00:19] Angela Kennecke: Tom and Bridgette Norring's world was shattered when they lost their 19 year old son, unexpectedly. Like too many young people. He had purchased what he thought was a Percocet through Snapchat only to discover it was 100% fentanyl.

[00:00:38] Bridgette Norring:  I said, you can't die from taking a Percocet. And he said, oh, yes you can ma, if it has Fentanyl in it, you can die and. I remember turning to the law enforcement officer standing at the door and I was like, my son was murdered.

[00:00:55] Angela Kennecke: Since their son's death, the Norrings have been raising awareness about our nation's deadly drug epidemic, even telling their story on Dr. Phil. They're also suing the parent company of Snapchat.

[00:01:12] Bridgette Norring: It was an actual ring of just young adults  Devin's age, in our community selling these pills 

[00:01:20] Angela Kennecke: via Snapchat.

[00:01:20] Bridgette Norring: Mm-hmm. . 

[00:01:21] Tom Norring: something that I think is important to bring up that's changed in the sort of way these deals, take place since we time we were kids, is these drugs are being delivered to your door.

They're being delivered by kids who probably look just like your kid. They maybe went to school with them. Just because your kids at home doesn't mean they're safe. Unfortunately, we felt like, okay, Devin's at home. It's a Friday night. What a safer place for him to be than at home with us in his bedroom.

[00:01:50] Angela Kennecke: Right. 

[00:01:51] Tom Norring: Unfortunately, that wasn't the case. Right? Because of the way that Snapchat and these drug dealers use the platforms like, Snapchat and bring the drugs directly to your home now.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:02:01] Angela Kennecke: Welcome to Grieving Out Loud. I'm Angela Kennecke I started this podcast and my charity, Emily's Hope, in memory of my daughter Emily, who lost her life to fentanyl poisoning at the age of 20. , I believe by sharing our stories of suffering, we can raise awareness about our nation's deadly drug epidemic and help put an end to it.

Well, Bridget and Tom, thank you so much for joining me and I am so sorry for the loss of Devin. He was only 19 years old, middle of the pandemic. Tell me what was going on. 

[00:02:45] Bridgette Norring: For us, Devin was he was home during the pandemic. He had gotten sent home from work that Monday, so five days before he passed.

 they were doing temperature checks at work and apparently he, was above the temperature, so they sent him home he tried like heck to get back to work. He wanted to work. But with the pandemic, the doctors, you know, you're quarantined. Come back 10 days if you're fine.

 we'll give you a note to go back to work. . Prior to his death, he had been being seen for blackout migraines and dental pain. 

[00:03:22] Angela Kennecke: Why did he have dental pain? . 

[00:03:24] Bridgette Norring: Devin suffered from anxiety and so he would clench his teeth a lot and he had broken 

[00:03:31] Angela Kennecke: J type thing. 

[00:03:33] Tom Norring: Bruxism. 

[00:03:33] Bridgette Norring: Brx, well, he had brx. Sure he, he was a grinder and a clincher.

But he had cracked the molars on both sides of his teeth, He got in in time to get one half of his mouth done. He was supposed to have gone back on the 2nd of April to get the other side. , but the lockdown came just two or three days prior. So that appointment got canceled along with his MRI that he was supposed to have had on the third.

[00:03:58] Angela Kennecke: So he was suffering from migraines, jaw pain? 

[00:04:01] Bridgette Norring: Correct. 

[00:04:01] Angela Kennecke: And anxiety was he treated for the anxiety? 

[00:04:03] Tom Norring: So he was treated for anxiety. He seen our doctor over a couple year period. They had prescribed him with some different medications to try. Devin didn't like taking any of those medications. He didn't like the way he felt on them.

He had a collection of 'em in his bedroom that were unopened, so 

[00:04:19] Angela Kennecke: isn't that funny, because my daughter was the same way in high school. Maybe a d d maybe depression. 

[00:04:26] Bridgette Norring: Mm-hmm. , 

[00:04:26] Angela Kennecke: and then she'd be prescribed something and she didn't like the way it made her feel, but yet, . In the case of your son, he took a pill that he thought was gonna make him feel better.

Right? 

[00:04:36] Bridgette Norring: Right. 

[00:04:36] Angela Kennecke: And in the case of my daughter, she took other things that she shouldn't have been taking, but yet they didn't wanna take the legal things that were prescribed to them. 

[00:04:42] Bridgette Norring: Right. It it's, 

[00:04:43] Angela Kennecke: isn't that weird? 

[00:04:43] Bridgette Norring: It's one of those mind boggling questions. Like, why? even for us, my husband has had multiple back surgeries.

So we had Percocet in the house. 

[00:04:52] Tom Noring: Yeah, we had prescription Percocet in the house. He had access to it. He knew exactly where it was. He'd never touched it in his life. 

[00:04:59] Angela Kennecke: Yeah. What a question. 

[00:05:00] Bridgette Norring: the night before he passed, I mean he was literally sitting right next to me on the couch. He was laughing.

He was holding a stick of butter and the butter dish in his hands, and he's like, ma, can I melt butter for my waffles? And I was like, well, yeah, you can milk butter for your waffles. And he was laughing and I was, what are you doing? And he's like, well, how do you melt the butter? And I. You just put it in the microwave, you know, for a couple seconds.

Don't go full. You know, one minute out, you'll totally dissolve it. And I remember him running up the stairs and I was like, I love you. Goof you. You're a goof. And he was like, I love you too, ma. And the next day he was, gone. 

[00:05:43] Angela Kennecke: With no real warning. Like you, 

you knew he had this pain and you knew he had the anxiety, but you didn't know he was buying or using anything, right?

[00:05:51] Tom Norring: No. And Devin was a super empathetic kid. He had a huge heart. He'd be the first one to help you if you were in trouble. But he was also one of those kids who would never tell you if he was hurting or if he was struggling. 

[00:06:03] Bridgette Norring: Mm-hmm. . 

[00:06:04] Angela Kennecke: Yeah. You know, my daughter was a lot like that as well. Big heart, but didn't want to talk if she was struggling, but always wanted 

to help other people.

[00:06:11] Bridgette Norring: you know, when you meet other families like ours, 

[00:06:13] Angela Kennecke: there's some similar personality traits. 

[00:06:15] Bridgette Norring: There's so many similarities Yeah. In that regard. So

[00:06:18] Angela Kennecke: your last words to 'em 

were, I love you. 

[00:06:19] Bridgette Norring: Mm-hmm. .

[00:06:20] Angela Kennecke: I have that. Same with my daughter. I, I feel so grateful for that now. Mm. , at least they weren't angry words or they weren't accusatory words, you know, it was just, it was, I love you. And that's a gift. 

[00:06:32] Bridgette Norring: Yeah. 

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:06:34] Angela Kennecke: That night, Devin said he was going to make waffles and go to his bedroom. To most parents, seems like a pretty harmless Friday night. . Little did Tom and Bridgette know that their son had purchased what he thought was a Percocet through Snapchat. An acquaintance then delivered it right to Devin's room.

 (MUSIC UP!) the next day, in the early afternoon. we had already been up for hours 

[00:07:07] Bridgette Norring: Tom said to him, our youngest son, Caden, who was 14 at the time, go up and wake your brother up. It's about time he gets up, you know, it's like 

[00:07:13] Angela Kennecke: one o'clock in the afternoon by this time it's 

[00:07:16] Bridgette Norring: not unusual. It's too little after two. 

[00:07:18] Tom Norring: Yeah, I mean it, it was getting late afternoon and we had sent our daughter to actually go get lunch cuz everybody was getting hungry and I.

Told Caden, I'm like, it's, it's time your brother gets up. Like, I dunno if he's sleeping in or what. I mean, it wasn't uncommon for him to be locked up in his bedroom for the morning. 

[00:07:31] Angela Kennecke: Well, right. 

[00:07:32] Tom Norring: And teenagers socializing. 

[00:07:33] Angela Kennecke: I mean, I had, I've had my teens sleep till one in the afternoon 

[00:07:35] Tom Norring: and go in, are you getting up?

[00:07:37] Angela Kennecke: Sure. 

[00:07:37] Tom Norring: I thought it was a little odd that he hadn't been up yet. And so I, I told ca I'm like, go get your brother up. You know, we got food coming and he needs to eat his. . So Caden had gone upstairs and and Caden found him. So he first went up and checked the door and it was locked, which wasn't uncommon for Devin to do, he just didn't want people bugging him when he was sleeping.

And so Caden came downstairs and he was like, yeah, his door's locked. I don't wanna wake him up. You know, he, he'll beat me up, , I wake him up basically. And I said, no, you go up there and you tell him it's time to get up. Tell him I said so. He is got food. . So Caden went upstairs and the door was still locked, and we had one of those little push button like locks where he can pick it with just like a sure.

A small pick or whatever. So I told Caden, I'm just like, pop his door open, tell him to get up. So Caden went upstairs to do that, and then it was quiet for a little bit, and then I heard Caden kinda shout down the stairs, dad. And then I could tell from the tone of his voice something was wrong. 

[00:08:33] Bridgette Norring: and the way that he was moving overhead, there was just a total urgency in it and 

[00:08:39] Tom Norring: right.

[00:08:39] Bridgette Norring: So he ran up the stairs and I ran behind him and 

[00:08:43] Tom Norring: I think I, I ran up the stairs in about two steps, about 18 stairs. And I ran to the bedroom. I was the first one into the bedroom after Caden came and got me, and I seen him on the bed laying in his clothes. 

I could immediately tell something was wrong, his color was off, and I ran over and I grabbed him, his hand and his face, and he was cold.

And I knew at that moment that it was already too late. I couldn't process at the moment what had happened. 

[00:09:16] Angela Kennecke: Right. having been there, I am so sorry. It's so traumatic and it's your brain can't register. 

[00:09:22] Tom Norring: My very first thought was this was a medical issue cuz of it, his headaches.

He had been struggling with him since high school. He was an athlete. He thought maybe something was going on with his head. So he wanted to get an MRI just to make sure, because he would get blackout migraines. 

[00:09:39] Angela Kennecke: Sure. I could see how you would think it was like a brain hemorrhage or something like that.

[00:09:42] Tom Norring: Right. And he was afraid to even drive his car that he had just bought because he didn't wanna crash. 

[00:09:47] Bridgette Norring: I don't wanna hurt anyone, ma. 

[00:09:48] Tom Norring: That's what he said. So he was riding to work with me cuz he was working with me for the summer at my. Before he was getting ready to go to college. He had just graduated, so he would save up money. He bought this car and then he didn't wanna drive it because he was afraid he would hurt somebody or crash it. So our first thought was, this is a medical thing. And then it dawned on me that, I yelled, dial 9 1 1, something's wrong. And I could hear my wife coming and my first thought was to try to shield her from that.

 I just tried to stop her in the hallway from coming in and the door. 

[00:10:21] Angela Kennecke: Did you go in the room? 

[00:10:22] Bridgette Norring: Yeah. 

[00:10:23] Tom Norring: Yeah. There was no holding her back. 

[00:10:24] Angela Kennecke: That's how I was too. A police officer tried to stop me from going in. 

[00:10:28] Bridgette Norring: I just remember I crumble in the corner. 

[00:10:31] Angela Kennecke: Yeah. 

[00:10:31] Bridgette Norring: Like help him do something. 

[00:10:34] Angela Kennecke: And it was too late. Because do they know the time of death now or they don't really know? 

[00:10:38] Bridgette Norring: No, 

[00:10:39] Angela Kennecke: but sometime during that, 

[00:10:40] Tom Norring: sometime during the night, 

Probably around one or two is what they had thought. 

[00:10:44] Angela Kennecke: So obviously you're in total shock. Out of the blue, your child's dead in his room. I mean, nobody would want that nightmare to play out in their home. D id you get any kind of answers right away? 

[00:10:56] Bridgette Norring: Well, we were sitting there waiting for law enforcement and the medical examiner to process the scene with Covid. I mean, they showed up in hazmat suit. So that made it even more like, what is, what is going on? We had to keep our family outside. We didn't want them to see Devin like that. But during that time, I had reached out to one of Devon's friends via Messenger, and I said, you know, Devon's gone. And now in hindsight, what a way to tell your friend.

[00:11:24] Angela Kennecke: Well, 

[00:11:24] Bridgette Norring: but I couldn't speak. I couldn't, 

[00:11:25] Angela Kennecke: it's not like, like you're thinking straight during those first early moments hours. 

[00:11:30] Bridgette Norring: I couldn't, I couldn't even make a, a solid sentence. And so he came back a few minutes later and he said, I'm hearing that Devin. and so-and-so bought a Percocet on Snap. I wanted 

[00:11:42] Angela Kennecke: Devi's friends because you had text him to let him know.

[00:11:46] Bridgette Norring: Mm-hmm. and I read that message like four or five times and I responded. 

I said, you can't die from taking a Percocet. And he said, oh, yes you can ma, if it has Fentanyl in it, you can die and. I remember turning to the law enforcement officer standing at the door and I was like, my son was murdered. My son was duped. Like, what is this? 

[00:12:11] Tom Norring: We didn't know what Fentanyl was. We had to figure it out. We'd never heard of it. 

[00:12:15] Bridgette Norring: Like, what is this? Like my son had so much going and he was so happy in the days before, you know, he made plans to go to California and, you know, so. . 

[00:12:25] Angela Kennecke: You found out it was Snapchat? 

[00:12:27] Bridgette Norring: Mm-hmm. . 

[00:12:27] Tom Norring: Yeah. We found out the social media platform. They used to get these pills. Him and a friend was Snapchat. we found out through snaps from friends. , 

[00:12:36] Bridgette Norring: (MUSIC HERE) Snapchat not only revealed what caused their son's death, but the app also provided the Norrings with a glimpse into their son's final moments. Through snaps, the grieving parents were able to piece together the events leading up to their son's death. They believe two guys, just acquaintances of Devin's from school, sold their son the deadly pill.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

It was an actual ring of just young adults Devin's age, in our community selling these pills 

[00:13:15] Angela Kennecke: via Snapchat.

[00:13:15] Bridgette Norring: Mm-hmm. . 

[00:13:16] Angela Kennecke: I think also, so there's a little bit of backstory too. We found out, the last moments of our son's life through Snapchat.

[00:13:25] Tom Norring: Because one of his friends started questioning the kid he was with, not knowing that she was gonna tell us. We found out that the kid knew something was wrong with Devin for at least 45 minutes to an hour. 

[00:13:36] Angela Kennecke: so he is actually with him? 

[00:13:37] Tom Norring: Mm-hmm. ? Yeah, he was with him in his room. He tried pouring water on his face, tried to wake him up.

We thought that it was odd that the door was locked to Devin's room. After we found out what had happened to him. . What we found out through Snapchat was this kid had locked the door behind him when he left and he just left him. Yes. 

[00:13:53] Angela Kennecke: And so we obviously didn't know about Good Samaritan laws or anything. He just was looking out for himself, worried about getting into trouble, 

[00:14:00] Tom Norring: something we wanted to touch on. But yeah, we think he felt like he was gonna get in trouble. 

[00:14:04] Bridgette Norring: I don't think so. You think so? I don't think so. 

[00:14:07] Angela Kennecke: so was he charged with anything? 

[00:14:09] Tom Norring: So no. That he couldn't really be charged with. 

[00:14:12] Angela Kennecke: Why not anything? 

[00:14:13] Tom Norring: Because it was a petty misdemeanor for leaving a scene of a crime with the, 

[00:14:18] Bridgette Norring: with the Good Samaritan law there.

It was explained to us that there's no part within it that says you have to get that person help. 

[00:14:27] Angela Kennecke: So it's some technicality wording within the law, right? 

[00:14:30] Tom Norring: They were more interested in going after the actual dealers than the kid who left him. Yeah. We, we didn't feel so much at the time, but, 

[00:14:36] Angela Kennecke: well, it's all bad. . 

[00:14:37] Tom Norring: I mean, it's when, when that kid was leaving, Caden had asked him, you know, is, is my brother snoring? Is he sleeping? Cuz he, he could hear him snoring. And the kid said, yeah, your, your brother's snoring. And he went to bed and he laughed. And Caden even came downstairs and mentioned to me that Devin was snoring really loud and we snore really loud. And I'm like, yeah, he's probably sleeping, you know, he, he goes to bed early.

So I think about that conversation a lot. You asked how Caden was doing and. . I think he goes back to that sometimes knowing that maybe he had an inkling of what was going on. 

[00:15:09] Angela Kennecke: I think that that's though where your son and you have to give yourself some grace, right? Because how were you really to know?

[00:15:18] Tom Norring: I sat down with him a couple weeks after this happened, just me and him on kind of the doorstep and just let him know like, nothing you did was wrong. We kind of feel the same way You do. Like, we should have did this, we should have did that. But he had no idea. Don't blame yourself and if you need to talk to somebody, you can always come and talk to us.

Like I just wanted him to know that we all kind of felt the same way. He's pretty young at the time. 

[00:15:44] Angela Kennecke: How old is he? 

[00:15:45] Tom Norring: He's 16 now. 

[00:15:46] Angela Kennecke: But he was what, 14? 

[00:15:47] Tom Norring: He was 14 at the time. 

[00:15:48] Angela Kennecke: Mm-hmm. and so traumatic. 

[00:15:50] Tom Norring: A little bit later on we asked, you know, do you want to talk to a counselor or anything like that, and he never really wanted to go that avenue. We tried to push him a little bit and he didn't wanna, he was very adamant that he didn't want to. 

[00:16:00] Bridgette Norring: Yeah. If you, if you try to put me in there, I'm not gonna say anything. I just, just leave me alone. I wanna, 

[00:16:07] Angela Kennecke: but it definitely, The whole family. And as time goes by, things will come out that they'll tell you, especially as they get older. I've got my, Emily has other siblings and that horrible night. You know, that she died. I just think they relive that quite a bit, that they were at home, when we came home. 

[00:16:21] Tom Norring: Absolutely. And that's something I mentioned to him, we relived that night often in our minds and I just wanted him to know, he could always talk to us right off the bat. And I think he's been really good about that. He doesn't really want to talk to counselors or anything, but he will come and talk to us when he's feeling down. 

[00:16:38] Bridgette Norring: Well, he had a bet with Covid, you know, they were homeschooled. 

[00:16:43] Angela Kennecke: Sure. 

[00:16:43] Bridgette Norring: Distance learning. Distance learning 

[00:16:44] Angela Kennecke: school at home soon. Sure. 

[00:16:47] Bridgette Norring: But he had a counselor and she said, you. when are you gonna stop focusing on grieving your brother and start focusing on your schoolwork? And he was like 

[00:16:58] Angela Kennecke: a counselor said that to you? 

[00:16:59] Bridgette Norring: Yeah. And she said, when are you gonna stop grieving your brother? I'm never gonna stoping my brother. And said, said, I'm never going to stop grieving. And he glad he hung up the phone on her and I was like, I cannot believe that just happened. So I, I think that in itself kind of shys him away from wanting to, 

[00:17:16] Angela Kennecke: well, our society in general wants us all to get over it in three days. You know? That's how, that's how much time you get off work and he's not, you're supposed to get over it and move on. And I don't think any of us will ever do that.

[00:17:26] Tom Norring: Unfortunately. Never gets any better. No. It gets easier to talk about, I think. Yeah. 

[00:17:32] Angela Kennecke: the more you talk about it, the easier it gets to talk about. 

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:17:34] Angela Kennecke: While the Norrings try to move forward, they still struggle with the fact that they haven't received any closure from the legal system. Despite their efforts, no one was charged in connection with Devin's death.

[00:17:51] Bridgette Norring: (MUSIC UP!) Devin, he got two investigations, one into the death. . So that was handled by our city police, but then because of the fake pills that was an investigation was opened up by our Dakota County Drug Task Force 

[00:18:08] Angela Kennecke: State.

[00:18:09] Bridgette Norring: Mm-hmm. . and I give biggest props to our law enforcement because they treated our son with so much dignity and respect, and that means, A lot because you hear 

[00:18:20] Angela Kennecke: Yes, it does 

[00:18:21] Bridgette Norring: so many horror stories. you know, another junkie gone, you know, you hear these stories from other families in this and I'm so grateful we didn't have that experience.

 But we still had access to Devin's devices and Snapchat and my daughter and one of her friends were able to follow. the individuals. And so every time they posted. I mean, my god, my phone hundreds and hundreds 

[00:18:48] Angela Kennecke: like menus with uh, s for sale s menus. 

[00:18:50] Bridgette Norring: Friday nights were the worst because they would have big bags of different colored paints.

[00:18:55] Angela Kennecke: They seeing this and blues in real time on 

[00:18:56] Tom Norring: Snapchat. Yes. Reporting 'em as they went. 

[00:18:58] Angela Kennecke: And so so please tell me that they got arrested, somebody got arrested. 

[00:19:04] Tom Norring: Not the way you think they would . So it was an ongoing investigation. They needed hard evidence, not just Snapchat. The investigations went on for some time. They questioned these individuals. They felt like they had built a pretty good case around what had happened, and they had pretty good evidence. And when it got before the county attorneys, they decided not to try the case. . 

[00:19:28] Angela Kennecke: What was the reason? 

[00:19:29] Tom Norring: The weird reason they gave us, which still doesn't make much sense to me, was there was two pills sold from two different individuals to my son and his friend that day and the day before. And they felt like they couldn't prove which pill killed my son. From which dealer, 

[00:19:45] Bridgette Norring: even though they both showed up both days at the same time. They were riding around together throughout town. 

[00:19:53] Angela Kennecke: And how many people were arrested initially? 

[00:19:56] Bridgette Norring: None. 

[00:19:56] Tom Norring: None. Oh, none. 

[00:19:57] Angela Kennecke: How many people were suspects? 

[00:19:59] Bridgette Norring: Two. Two. 

[00:20:00] Tom Norring: Two. 

[00:20:00] Angela Kennecke: Two. Okay. And so neither one charged because they couldn't prove which pill came from, which one killed your son. 

[00:20:06] Tom Norring: My backwards reasoning to the county attorney was to tell him that. So if me and my friend. went in and stabbed somebody and left and that person died. You wouldn't charge either one of us, cuz you didn't know who gave them the fatal blow I mean, this, this was my, 

[00:20:21] Angela Kennecke: it's true 

[00:20:21] Tom Norring: reasoning to this. 

[00:20:22] Angela Kennecke: It's a, it's a great analogy. It's a great analogy. 

[00:20:24] Tom Norring: I'm like, why wouldn't you charge both of them? they were afraid to try the case, I think because they felt like they couldn't prove 

[00:20:31] Bridgette Norring: the one suspect a couple months later was arrested. they sold to an undercover.

So we were like, yes, they're gonna get this person off the street. They went before the courts. That person got three years probation. Don't do it again. 

[00:20:46] Angela Kennecke: Do you think he's doing it again? 

[00:20:48] Bridgette Norring: He is now being indicted, federally. 

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:20:50] Angela Kennecke: Although the charges against the suspect are not related to Devin's death, the family is hopeful. He will no longer be able to sell drugs to. The other suspect involved in Devin's case is also no longer dealing drugs, but not because he turned his life around. He too died from a fentanyl overdose.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:21:18] Bridgette Norring: we say Devin died from fentanyl poisoning. He didn't know. What was in that pill? This individual, they knew, I have text messages from the one saying a week prior they narcaned two kids. They knew the pills were bad, but they continued to put ' em out. 

[00:21:32] Tom Norring: Yeah. The kids selling 'em knew that something was wrong with the pills. But they weren't telling the people on Snapchat though, right? 

[00:21:38] Angela Kennecke: Right. 

[00:21:38] Tom Norring: He, he died from his own supply, that one dealer. 

[00:21:40] Angela Kennecke: So he probably was addicted and had a good idea of what was. Just didn't think he would die or didn't care, 

[00:21:45] Tom Norring: or he was looking at the charges that were in front of him and, 

[00:21:48] Angela Kennecke: and so he was facing charges in another case? 

[00:21:51] Tom Norring: Yeah. 

[00:21:51] Bridgette Norring: Multiple. 

[00:21:51] Angela Kennecke: how many young people have died in your, your community? How 

big is your community? 

[00:21:55] Bridgette Norring: the city of Hastings is approximately 24,000, 25,000 people.

We've lost six people in 2020 Mostly young people. friends. 2021 was the year that four individuals that Devin knew passed away. They were all 1920.

[00:22:13] Tom Norring: we had been lobbying and campaigning and trying to spread awareness quickly after Devin passed away, we were trying to do these things cuz we as parents were shocked that we didn't know what this was. We thought we knew what the hard drugs were. We grew up with around, substance abuse users in our families. And so we had a pretty good grasp. We thought on what to talk to our kids about when this happened to Devin. We went on a pretty strong campaign and a lot of his friends were on board because they knew this was an issue going on in the. and nobody was listening to them and nobody was being a voice or an advocate for them. And that encouraged us to continue on with what we were doing. One of the girls that they found, she was 19, she was wearing one of our Fentanyl campaign, Devin Memorial Hoodies when they found her.

[00:23:01] Angela Kennecke: When she died. 

[00:23:02] Tom Norring: When she died. 

[00:23:03] Angela Kennecke: And so she, , 

[00:23:05] Tom Norring: yeah. She knew that this was an issue. 

[00:23:07] Bridgette Norring: I think one of the biggest things that we are starting to see with these kids is that they don't have a comprehension. They don't understand. So with her, she was with people, from what we were told, they were laughing, and, and watching her nod out. I don't think these kids understand. , your friend's not high. Your friend that's dying. 

[00:23:26] Tom Norring: The signs of an overdose. 

[00:23:28] Bridgette Norring: Yeah. 

[00:23:28] Tom Norring: The severity of the pills or the drugs that, the fentanyl that's in these drugs.

[00:23:32] Angela Kennecke: So you've been talking about it, you've been doing whatever you can mm-hmm. to get the word out. What do you think is working that you're doing? Let's talk about that over what's not working first? 

[00:23:41] Bridgette Norring: Well, 

[00:23:42] Angela Kennecke: because we know there's a lot left to do. We all know that. Right? 

[00:23:44] Tom Norring: It's been a long journey. We actually.

[00:23:46] Bridgette Norring: We actually reached out to our local United Way of Hastings May of last year. And you never know what you're gonna get when you put yourself out there, what you're gonna get in return. and they've been really great. we've got the law enforcement pulled into the table. We've got our drug test force, our city police, our, our county police, our faith-based organizations are now coming to the table. That's great. Recovery communities are coming to the table. 

[00:24:12] Angela Kennecke: So you're, you're unifying and mobilizing and getting the word out.

[00:24:16] Tom Norring: Sure. What, what we've found over the last few years of, of trying to spread this awareness, I think our first thought was we wanna let everybody know what's happening right away. We had an opportunity to go on, like Dr. Phil, and we thought, okay, this is our chance to go and spread this message nationally and let everybody know what's happening. This is our, way to get in. , pretty much nobody was listening to us at first, so we went and did this, and it didn't get much traction, it seemed like 

[00:24:44] Angela Kennecke: Dr. Phil. 

[00:24:44] Tom Norring: Right. So when we came, we got back home, we're like, wow, this didn't really make as big a splash. 

[00:24:49] Angela Kennecke: Your phone wasn't ringing off the hook. 

[00:24:50] Tom Norring: No. Nobody, nobody really knew, like in our town what fentanyl was still at this point and didn't 

[00:24:56] Bridgette Norring: even know we went on Dr. Phil. 

[00:24:57] Tom Norring: Right. And just, it, it didn't make the impact that we thought it was going to. So, Then we were like, we had to reassess, okay, what are we doing wrong here? Maybe we need to try to work with law enforcement or go after legislation and try to get them involved.

So we did that. We tried to get. Involve with legislation as much as possible, make as many connections as we could there. 

 Like any family. We have our views on politics, but we kind of put that aside and worked with politicians from both sides of the coin to try to put together some legislation. So we attacked it from that avenue. And we also tried to get involved with our local law enforcement and DTF and things like that. And I think what we found after two years of doing all this stuff is the biggest impact that we've made, Has been locally doing our events with local town hall meetings and bringing awareness to our town because the more that we do these events, the more people show up, the more questions they ask, the more they go home and talk about it. They talk to their family. They talk to their kids or grandkids, their friends. and that's really how we've started to reach these kids. And it's been growing. we've sort of created sort of a model and we try to use that or give that information of what works for us to, unfortunately all the new parents that are in this club that nobody wants to be part of, 

[00:26:16] Angela Kennecke: and you can never leave.

[00:26:17] Tom Norring: Right. . And, and so that's what we've been doing. 

[00:26:19] Angela Kennecke: What about Snapchat? 

[00:26:22] Bridgette Norring: You can take this one. Well, I have to be very careful now. It's what I say about Snapchat because we are one of nine families that did bring lawsuit against them. It was just recently filed.

[00:26:36] Angela Kennecke: Okay. So, so it's just starting to make this way to court.

[00:26:39] Bridgette Norring: She starting to, we were expecting, like the media, you know, TMZ posted it it before our attorneys could, and it was like, You know, do, do you duck and hide? 

[00:26:50] Angela Kennecke: You hid in bushes? No, 

[00:26:51] Bridgette Norring: but no. But no, we were invited in April, 2021 to sit down with Snapchat executives by invitation of another bereaved parent. And I remember we were like two minutes into the pre-call the day before of what to expect. And Tom said to me, he's like, get off that call. Person is trying to coach you and you're never gonna be heard, you're never gonna get your point across. And so me, I wanna see things through. And the next day we had the meeting.

[00:27:20] Angela Kennecke: Just a second. Tom, why did you say that? 

[00:27:22] Tom Norring: I could tell by what they were saying and some of the things that they were bringing up that seemed untrue to me. They were trying to coach her into what to bring up and what not to bring up. And 

[00:27:32] Angela Kennecke: Snapchat itself. The people at Snapchat? 

[00:27:34] Tom Norring: Yeah. The people who were talking to us about having the meeting with Snapchat. Mm-hmm. . And as soon as they started having that conversation, I could tell this wasn't gonna go the way that she thought this was gonna go, or the other parents.

[00:27:43] Angela Kennecke: And did it go the way you thought it was going to go? 

[00:27:45] Bridgette Norring: No. 

[00:27:46] Angela Kennecke: What happened?

[00:27:46] Bridgette Norring: the very first words out of their VP of global policy, I think communications, Jennifer Stout said We had no idea that this was happening on our platform until this bereaved parent came to us in November and we were like, how do you not know? And now we know they have news articles out there dated back to 2017.

[00:28:09] Angela Kennecke: Yes. So they knew. 

[00:28:10] Bridgette Norring: So they knew. So that's a lie. And it just kind of spiraled. Going downhill. she made it a very clear right away, section 230 came up. Well, it's not us posting it, it's the individuals and, and we can't be held, held privacy accountable. Yeah. The right to privacy was huge. They kept privacy, privacy, privacy. And it was 

[00:28:29] Angela Kennecke: so you got nowhere. 

[00:28:30] Bridgette Norring: Nowhere. 

[00:28:31] Angela Kennecke: So, I have a question. you filed this lawsuit. I. money doesn't really matter. Nothing's gonna bring your kid back. 

[00:28:37] Tom Norring: Yeah. The money's not really like a reward for us. It's more like hoping a punishment to them and, and hopes to encourage them to make some 

changes on that. I want, I mean, honestly, Ours is more so just, 

[00:28:48] Bridgette Norring: we hope that in doing so, Those at the helm look at section two 30 or make the changes to protect our kids online. Do so because they have to see big tech. they don't care about our kids. 

[00:29:06] Tom Norring: Right. 

[00:29:06] Bridgette Norring: She made it very clear in that meeting that, parents should be doing a better job monitoring our kids. And I'm like, how? For us, Devin was 19. How do you monitor a 19 year old's phone Who pays their own phone bill?

The whole, well, he lived in your home. You had every right to No, I . 

[00:29:25] Angela Kennecke: It's, it's no different to me, a drug dealer. I think of this often with comments too. Like on Twitter, somebody says a nasty comment if they ran up in the street to you, . You know what I'm saying? Right. It's no different than a drug dealer on the corner.

[00:29:38] Bridgette Norring: Mm-hmm. 

[00:29:39] Angela Kennecke: than a drug dealer on Snapchat. How's it any different? It's a public forum, 

[00:29:43] Tom Norring: so. I've had some interesting take on some of the things that they've said in these meetings. . So for those who don't know, rule two 30 C basically protects social media platforms from what their users say.

[00:29:55] Angela Kennecke: It's so the company itself isn't responsible for what you might put on, 

[00:29:58] Tom Norring: right. And it, the page, it's really sort of a dated law that was meant to protect. People's privacy. The problem with that is, if I were to take out a ad in the newspaper selling drugs, obviously the newspaper would get in trouble for that. They can't hide behind that rule two 30 C, whereas social media platforms can so something that. I've touched on all of Snapchat, is they've tried to claim that there's not a technology that they can use to monitor Snapchat accountsThere's absolutely is. You see it every day. They're called. Advertising bots or ad bots when you say things or look things up on your phone and all of a sudden on your social media platform, you get bombarded with that product.

They also have things like Facebook has monitoring. I mean, if you go against their community standards, they can block it. How do they know that you went against community standards? So the technology is definitely out there. 

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:30:50] Angela Kennecke: After several national stories about the lawsuit, Snap Inc. released a statement. The company says it cannot comment on active litigation, but claims it is using cutting edge technology to find and shut down drug dealer's accounts. It is also "continually expanding its support for law enforcement investigations."

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:31:23] Tom Norring: one of our things with Snapchat was getting. Subpoena information to law enforcement faster. Why is there such a delay and why is it such a mix of responses when law enforcement from different counties or different states are trying to subpoena these Snapchat accounts? why is there such an inconsistency with it? And they tried to bring up some bogus information about how their servers operate.

First of all, they don't own any servers. They don't own any big data centers. They rent their storage from. Google and Amazon, so when they wanna pull things from Snapchat for a subpoena, they basically have to put a ticket in with Google to pull that information from their servers and case by case. It is different on how much information is there 

[00:32:07] Angela Kennecke: or is saved. 

[00:32:08] Tom Norring: Right? That is saved to the. People think that because it's Snapchat, they're, that information's gone. It's not, it's stored on a server somewhere for a certain amount of time. And depending on case by case, how they can access that information.

[00:32:20] Angela Kennecke: So ultimately I'm sure the lawsuit will take some time, right? If it's recently filed, you could be years 

[00:32:26] Bridgette Norring: mm-hmm. . 

[00:32:26] Tom Norring: Sure. Yeah. 

[00:32:27] Angela Kennecke: What do you want to see happen between now and whenever it's settled, and then once it's settled, ultimately what's your goal? 

[00:32:34] Bridgette Norring: Our goal is just mainly getting the laws in place to start holding social media companies like Snapchat.

[00:32:42] Angela Kennecke: So you're talking accountable DC and lobby? 

[00:32:45] Tom Norring: Yes. So that's part of it. The other part is having the company take some personal initiative or responsibility for what is on their platforms. You've seen Facebook sort of step up with the suicide stuff on their platform. After some people came forward and they've done a better job of suicide prevention and things like that on their platform, we want to see that from Snapchat.

We wanna see them take a personal approach and sort of monitor these accounts and go after these dealers and provide better. Information to law enforcement, not just delete these accounts, but if there's an active investigation going on work with law enforcement to help them. So these are some of the things we are pressuring them for.

If we can't get legislation to do that, we want to take, an action against Snapchat like this lawsuit, which will help sort of. Push them in that direction. 

[00:33:37] Angela Kennecke: Right? 

Because you think about all the kids who've died since Devin died. 

[00:33:41] Bridgette Norring: Mm-hmm. , 

[00:33:42] Angela Kennecke: you know, who bought a pill off Snapchat? I just think it's tragic that this goes on and Snapchat and that's not enough. Your son's death isn't enough to stop it.

[00:33:51] Bridgette Norring: No, and, and Snapchat, even as of a couple weeks ago, we were able to find a young man in our community, 16 year old, same age as my youngest son. and within his snap, you could tap on the snap itself and it would bring you to Telegram where you could see a bigger menu of what was being offered. So the way that they are able to link around their other social media. Apps. Apps, 

[00:34:17] Angela Kennecke: social media apps. Yeah. Cuz the kids always find the next one. 

[00:34:20] Bridgette Norring: Mm-hmm. . 

[00:34:21] Tom Norring: Right.

[00:34:21] Angela Kennecke: And they're always one step ahead of us. They, they young people, 

[00:34:24] Bridgette Norring: and you know what Snapchat, they say, well we got the IP address blocker put out. Our dealers found a way around that in our community. Device blocking. drug dealers don't hold the same phone. They just go buy a new one. Don't just buy a, a burner phone.

So a burner phone. 

[00:34:39] Angela Kennecke: Right. 

[00:34:39] Tom Norring: they're using the geo tracking on Snapchat to find new customers too. We found the dealers right in their area. Right? The locator, yep. Mm-hmm. . So that's how they're able to prey on these kids. And something that I think is important to bring up that's changed in the sort of way these deals take place since we time we were kids, is these drugs are being delivered to your door.

They're being delivered by kids who probably look just like your kid. They maybe went to school with them. Just because your kids at home doesn't mean they're safe. Unfortunately, we felt like, okay, Devin's at home. It's a Friday night. What a safer place for him to be than at home with us in his bedroom.

[00:35:17] Angela Kennecke: Right. 

[00:35:17] Tom Norring: Unfortunately, that wasn't the case. Right? Because of the way that Snapchat and these drug dealers use the platforms like Snapchat and bring the drugs directly to your home now. 

[00:35:27] Angela Kennecke: And it's truly a David and Goliath kind of story. You guys are going after the giant social media companies, but really the thing you can do is educate every parent.

Mm-hmm. , who can educate every kid. 

[00:35:39] Tom Norring: Absolutely. And that's been our. Biggest goal as of late because we found that seems to be what's working the best. The more that we talk about our story, the more other parents are willing to come forward and talk about theirs. It sort of alleviates some of that stigma. Bridget can tell you recently, we had some parents come forward that had lost children from years ago and they weren't able to talk about it until recently cuz they felt like they can finally start bringing this into the open. 

[00:36:07] Angela Kennecke: Right. Right. 

Well, thank you. 

[00:36:09] Bridgette Norring: Thank you 

[00:36:09] Angela Kennecke: for everything that you're doing. Thank you for carrying this torch, I know it's hard and I know every time you have to speak about your child or the night that it happened, the next day it opens up this wound that is always there. It kind of scabs over a little bit and it gets opened again and again and again when you put yourself out there. lots of layers of scabs on that thing, but I, I feel your pain and I appreciate you guys. 

[00:36:33] Bridgette Norring: Yeah. And we're very sorry for your loss, but I think what you're doing is really great. Giving parents a platform, share their stories, you know, there's power in sharing the stories. 

[00:36:43] Angela Kennecke: Yeah. 

[00:36:43] Bridgette Norring: Even though they are tragic, 

[00:36:45] Angela Kennecke: you know, you're not alone.

[00:36:46] Bridgette Norring: Mm-hmm. , 

[00:36:47] Angela Kennecke: you know, you're not alone. 

[00:36:48] Tom Norring: Absolutely. and the more families that come forward and talk about this and, and bring it up the better chance we have of educating people and saving lives and getting education into the schools and. Police departments and things like that get the tools that they need. The more this is brought up, the more legislation and things like that start to open their ears and eyes and see what's going on. So yeah, if you have a story to share, please do so. I mean, even if you think nobody wants to hear it, there might be somebody that listens to that and goes home and talks to a family member and it might save a life.

 (MUSIC UP!) If you have a story, we'd love to hear it. Check out our website, Emily's Hope charity for how you can get involved. While there, you can also find resources for help with substance use disorder. If you found value in this podcast, please consider giving it a positive review and check out more grieving out loud episodes.

Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. 

This podcast is produced by Casey Wonnenberg King and Anna Fey (MUSIC UP!)