[00:00:00] Angela Kennecke: (music up!) Welcome to Grieving Out Loud. I'm Angela Kennecke. Recently I went to a DEA conference in the Midwest, specifically for parents who have lost a child to fentanyl poisoning. It was a really emotional experience, but I met with some amazing parents there who want to share with you. Over the next three weeks, we'll be hearing their stories of coping with the devastating loss of a child to.

Among the parents I spoke with were two moms who met at a support group and became fast friends because they had so much in common. Both women lost their adult sons after years of battling addiction. Their stories are powerful and heartbreaking, and I can't wait to share them with you.

[00:00:47] Ann Breeding: We're losing someone every five minutes, right? Why is this not all over the news? Why are the politicians not involved? Why? Why isn't stuff being changed? To prevent another mom sitting here.

[00:00:58] Natalie Kritenbrink: He wasn't the only one of his in his friend group that went down that road. One friend, he lost literally two months before he died. He lost another friend to overdose.

[00:01:11] Ann Breeding: the core focus is they felt the need to self-medicate for a reason. So focusing on the prevention side is so huge because if we could prevent them from feeling the need to self medicate it wouldn't matter what the drug was or how many times we wouldn't be having a funeral,

 (QUICK MUSIC UP!) 

[00:01:31] Angela Kennecke: . Mothers on a mission on this episode of Grieving Out Loud.

[00:01:36] Ann Breeding: My son had a conversation with me and said, mom, you love unconditionally. Like you don't judge people. And it's kind of cool, but it's kind of weird.

And I think you should really think about doing some sort of outreach to help people like. Then he died. 

[00:01:50] Angela Kennecke: Wow. 

[00:01:52] Ann Breeding: I'm a mom on a mission and I am shouting it from the rooftops to every person that's willing to listen. And if you're not willing to listen, I'm gonna invite you in any way, cuz you're gonna hear what I have to say.

. (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:02:01] Angela Kennecke: thank you so much, Natalie and Ann for joining me for this podcast. We're meeting under some interesting circumstances. We are here at the DEA Conference on Fentanyl for parents who've lost children. You guys walked in the room about five minutes ago and I was like, oh, here are my people.

Right away. Right away I could see that. I could see your hearts, so thank you for being here. 

[00:02:27] Ann Breeding: Thank you 

for having us. 

[00:02:28] Natalie Kritenbrink: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:02:29] Angela Kennecke: And you're both from Iowa? Yes. Yes. And you both lost sons? Yes. Yes. Can we start with you, Anne? Tell me about your son, Daniel, and what happened? 

[00:02:39] Ann Breeding: My son Daniel is amazing. He was a typical kid growing up, played hockey, did all the things.

 He did end up. using substances. Our journey was about almost 12 full years of substance use disorder. he did end up on the streets. He did end up being one of the kids under the bridges. He hopped trains all over the country and it was a long journey. But he did finally end up in treatment and he was.

Doing a recovery for over six months. And then one Sunday during Covid, we had church at home, and I remember right after church was over, the sheriff pulled in my driveway and brought that news that, that nobody wants. So we lost him to a polysubstance overdose. He had several different substances in his system and Fentanyl was one of them, but that's not what killed him.

It was the combination of all the different substances. 

[00:03:31] Angela Kennecke: It strikes me that you had 12 years of sleepless nights pain. I don't think anybody really understands unless they've been 

[00:03:41] Ann Breeding: through this. Yes. I cannot tell you the amount of sleepless nights, and I cannot tell you the amount of tears.

a lot. A lot and not knowing when that call was gonna. 

[00:03:57] Angela Kennecke: And then it comes. 

[00:03:58] Ann Breeding: And then it came. And the worst part was that we were literally on the mountaintop, screaming, screaming, praise the Lord. We finally made it. He's in treatment. He's doing great. He's been, 

[00:04:06] Angela Kennecke: you had hope. 

[00:04:07] Ann Breeding: He's been in, yes, I did. Like fully and, and then boom.

Just like that. Just like that. Which in the medical examiner told me that most likely, because he had no substances in him for so long, that when that happened, that's what stopped his heart because his body couldn't handle what he did handle at one point in his journey. 

[00:04:26] Angela Kennecke: Right. 

It's a common story that people go back to using after they haven't used for a while, and that's when they die because they think they can use 

[00:04:34] Ann Breeding: Yes.

[00:04:34] Angela Kennecke: What they had before. 

[00:04:36] Ann Breeding: Yes.

[00:04:37] Angela Kennecke: I'm so sorry. 

[00:04:38] Ann Breeding: Thank you. 

[00:04:40] Angela Kennecke: And he left behind a daughter. 

[00:04:41] Ann Breeding: He did. She is the biggest blessing in my life. 

[00:04:45] Angela Kennecke: And you're a grandparent raising a grandchild. 

[00:04:47] Ann Breeding: I am. And I don't know how I lived without her in my life. So , she is amazing. She is in fourth grade. She is amazing in school.

She's getting all great grades and she misses her dad. She understands addiction. Unfortunately, that's something that we, she understands addiction. 

[00:05:03] Angela Kennecke: And she's nine. 

[00:05:04] Ann Breeding: Yeah, absolutely. She, at her school, started a club called Steps of Hope, because that's what we're doing is Steps of Hope, overdose awareness, so she decided that at school she needed to talk about it as well so that we can break the stigma cuz that's a big thing.

And so at nine years old, she came home and said, grandma, can I have some of those free giveaways that you take to the walk? And I said, okay, what for? Well, I started this club at school called Steps of Hope and she's passing out the things at school and her friends show up at the walk in support. So that's a big deal.

[00:05:37] Angela Kennecke: That is amazing. Yeah. That is amazing. And you are among the millions of grandparents raising grandchildren? 

[00:05:43] Ann Breeding: Yes, 

[00:05:43] Angela Kennecke: because of the drug problems that we have in this nation. Not just because people have died, because people are in prison, because people are using. 

[00:05:51] Ann Breeding: Right. 

[00:05:51] Angela Kennecke: And it's so prevalent now. . I think that people forget about that aspect of this crisis that we're in.

[00:05:59] Ann Breeding: Yes. 

[00:05:59] Angela Kennecke: And the effect on the children. 

The effect on people's children. 

[00:06:02] Ann Breeding: Yes. Substance use disorder has an effect on everybody, and if you haven't been affected, you're going to be affected. So I always tell people it's better to get on the front end of prevention and awareness than to be on the back end when I'm wearing the picture of my son on my shirt.

[00:06:19] Angela Kennecke: Right. 

It must break your heart for your granddaughter though. 

[00:06:22] Ann Breeding: It absolutely does. We just had the, memorial bench placed at the cemetery and we were excited. We went to see it pulled up and she said, grandma, I can't get out of the car. Right. Yeah. It melt down. I said, it's okay. It's okay.

When you're ready, we'll come back you know, 

[00:06:39] Angela Kennecke: you guys are in grief together. 

[00:06:40] Ann Breeding: Yep. We are absolutely in this together. And she sees when I start, my eyes start tearing up and she always comes running, grandma, you know, we're in this together. I'm like, and I just hug her. That's what we do. We hug a lot. Mm-hmm. . And she is amazing.

[00:06:55] Angela Kennecke: And natalie, I want to ask you about your son. 

 I hear on your podcast you talk a lot about sensitive kids. Yes. And that was Zach. He was sensitive from birth. so. kind. So nurturing, so caring and just so sensitive. 

[00:07:16] Angela Kennecke: I have a question. 

[00:07:17] Natalie Kritenbrink: Sure. 

[00:07:17] Angela Kennecke: Was he sensitive to tastes and textures and things like that too?

Sensory things or just 

[00:07:23] Natalie Kritenbrink: No. 

[00:07:23] Angela Kennecke: Sensitive. 

[00:07:24] Natalie Kritenbrink: Emotionally. 

[00:07:25] Angela Kennecke: Emotionally. Because I would say my Emily was both, yes. And I 

was just curious. Yeah. 

[00:07:28] Natalie Kritenbrink: Yep. No sensitive to people and. In school. He had so many friends. He was a friend to everybody, which was why he had so many friends. He never fell into the you know, making fun of classmates, never making fun of others that, were different.

I mean, he just cared about everybody and went out of his way to make sure that everybody knew it, But I think also sensitivity was detrimental. 

[00:07:59] Angela Kennecke: I think that many, many people who fall into substance use disorder, 

the world is just too difficult.

[00:08:07] Natalie Kritenbrink: Yeah, right. 

[00:08:07] Ann Breeding: It's a cruel world, right? 

[00:08:09] Natalie Kritenbrink: It is. Yeah. Right. 

[00:08:10] Angela Kennecke: And what happened with 

Zach? 

[00:08:12] Natalie Kritenbrink: Zach and several of his friends went to Iowa City after they graduated high school. 

[00:08:18] Angela Kennecke: And that's where I went to school. 

[00:08:19] Natalie Kritenbrink: Yeah, 

[00:08:19] Angela Kennecke: yeah. 

[00:08:20] Natalie Kritenbrink: Cool. And the four boys lived, they lived together. One of his friends ended up having to go home because he wasn't doing well, and his parents said, were not going to pay for you to go to college if you're not going to do well.

So he moved home. Shortly thereafter he committed suicide. And Zach and several of his friends. I don't think they knew how to handle it. And several of them went on the path of drugs. Now, I'm not saying that he didn't experiment prior to that.

I'm not saying that, you know, we had, 

[00:08:51] Angela Kennecke: but that was the tipping point. 

[00:08:53] Natalie Kritenbrink: That was the tipping point for the harder. Drugs. And he wasn't the only one of his in his friend group that went down that road. One friend, he lost literally two months before he died. He lost another friend to overdose.

so between college and. when Zach died we went through several treatment centers. You know, he tried to live his life as well as working on his treatment. So he never did anything for any long length of time or long enough length of time for it to help, you know what 

[00:09:27] Natalie Kritenbrink: I mean?

[00:09:27] Angela Kennecke: He didn't stay in treatment or in some sort of recovery program? 

[00:09:30] Natalie Kritenbrink: No. He didn't walk out of any, but none of them were long enough. 

MUSIC UP!

[00:09:35] Angela Kennecke: Research shows it takes 18 to 24 months after using drugs for the brain to heal. But many treatment programs only last a few weeks and are expensive. That's why Emily's Hope has pledged hundreds of thousands of dollars toward treatment scholarships.

MUSIC UP!

[00:09:55] Natalie Kritenbrink: So he would complete the treatment 

[00:09:57] Angela Kennecke: and relapse. 

[00:09:58] Natalie Kritenbrink: He would relapse. 

[00:09:59] Angela Kennecke: Mm-hmm. . 

[00:09:59] Natalie Kritenbrink: And he would do well for a while and then he would relapse.

 he went a period of almost five years between, you know, his year 20 to 31 when he died, he did all the normal things. He had a great job. He had a girlfriend, he had a baby. 

[00:10:15] Angela Kennecke: How many is his daughter? 

[00:10:16] Natalie Kritenbrink: She's six now. 

[00:10:17] Angela Kennecke: So you and Anne have very similar stories So was it your son's deaths that brought the two of you together?

[00:10:26] Natalie Kritenbrink: Yes. Yes. 

[00:10:28] Angela Kennecke: Tell me how that happened. 

[00:10:29] Natalie Kritenbrink: Well, someone wrote in to a Nextdoor app and was looking for, Therapy or counseling. Mm-hmm. . And we talked about You take it, do you remember? Better than, than I did. Yeah. 

[00:10:43] Ann Breeding: They posted because they had lost their son and they were looking for a therapist.

So instantly we both were commenting, you know, that we too, have lost our sons. And then started sharing resources and then Natalie. Sent me an email and said, there's a grief group that meets on Monday if you want to go. , we could all three go together. So I said yes. 

[00:11:08] Angela Kennecke: Was this group specifically for people who'd lost children to substance child?

[00:11:13] Ann Breeding: No, just a child . Which is different. We'll, 

[00:11:15] Angela Kennecke: we'll, we'll get to that because we're actually at Emily's Hope working on starting a support group for parents like us. Yep. Because you are judged. Yes. By people who lost their children to cancer and other things. 

[00:11:27] Ann Breeding: Yes. Right. Yeah. 

[00:11:29] Angela Kennecke: So you go to this grief group. So 

[00:11:31] Ann Breeding: we did and we met, but the third gal never showed up.

So it was just Natalie and Anne and we met outside. introduced ourselves and went inside. 

[00:11:41] Natalie Kritenbrink: And even though I was almost a year further along in this journey than you were, right? 

[00:11:48] Ann Breeding: Mm-hmm. . but. I had not been able to, like, I didn't go to any grief groups. I didn't, I really hadn't done anything other than why not a few grief share. 

[00:11:56] Angela Kennecke: Why not? And I hadn't either. Yeah. Yeah. Why not? I didn't. Were you, were you embarrassed? Were you 

[00:12:01] Ann Breeding: No, no. I didn't have it in me to do anything.

Yeah. I gotcha. Saying all I wanted to do was sit and cry. 

[00:12:07] Natalie Kritenbrink: Yeah. And I, I went back to my life, you know, it was like, I lived in not a, not so much a denial, but. I, I just didn't, I didn't focus on that, you know what I mean? I tried not to. You tried to, I tried not to compartmentalize. 

[00:12:23] Angela Kennecke: Yes. Put it in the back Absolutely.

[00:12:25] Natalie Kritenbrink: Drawer somewhere. Absolutely. Yeah. And, and, and, and I stayed home a lot. I just stayed home a lot because I didn't. I didn't, 

[00:12:33] Angela Kennecke: didn't wanna talk to people about it, didn't wanna talk. People would ask you if, I bet people who knew you if you went places and did things. 

[00:12:38] Natalie Kritenbrink: Yes. I just was not ready to get back to life.

I went to work and I, you know, did my granddaughter's stuff and that kind of thing. But yeah, I didn't, I wasn't ready for anything else until this email or this message on the next door app. I just kind of, it just kind of sparked in me. Maybe I should give that a try. Maybe I'm ready to give that a try and then to have somebody to go with.

[00:12:59] Ann Breeding: Right. 

[00:12:59] Natalie Kritenbrink: Made all the difference in the world. 

[00:13:01] Ann Breeding: And then we went to the group, we did the thing, and then we came outside and we sat there and talked for an hour and a half about our stories and our, our similarities and, and the fact that, okay, granted this was about a loss of a child, but we're different. we're different because, and we, 

[00:13:22] Natalie Kritenbrink: I think we were the only ones there that had, 

[00:13:23] Ann Breeding: yes, 

[00:13:24] Natalie Kritenbrink: we were asked a child to substance use rather than cancer or an accident 

[00:13:28] Angela Kennecke: or, yes. Although it's becoming more and more common. When I was at that bereaved parents conference this summer, , a number of us had lost children to Fentanyl.

Mm-hmm. . So yes, there were lots of other reasons why people had lost kids there, but those numbers are unfortunately 

[00:13:43] Ann Breeding: Right. 

[00:13:43] Angela Kennecke: You know, with nearly 299 people dying every day. Unfortunately those numbers are growing and, and there are a lot more of us. 

[00:13:50] Ann Breeding: Yes. 

[00:13:50] Angela Kennecke: But you're right. I mean, I just think, I wrote a blog called. My child died too, but not from drugs. You know, I get that almost everywhere I go. Oh yeah. And people are trying to say, I can relate to what you've gone through. But at the same time, in a way, They're judging me or they don't want me to judge them, or their ch, I don't know what it is, but that's part of our society.

[00:14:11] Ann Breeding: Right. 

[00:14:11] Angela Kennecke: It just is. Right. You, you've all gotten that. 

[00:14:13] Ann Breeding: Yes. 

[00:14:13] Natalie Kritenbrink: Mm-hmm. , 

yeah. Mm-hmm. , yeah. Yes. Mm-hmm. . 

[00:14:16] Angela Kennecke: So you kept talking after the grief group? 

[00:14:19] Natalie Kritenbrink: Yes. We found another grief group. Yeah. And this one was specific to mm-hmm. children of overdose children that had died of overdose. And that one, I think we just stopped going to the other one altogether.

[00:14:30] Ann Breeding: Right. 

[00:14:31] Natalie Kritenbrink: And then started 

[00:14:32] Angela Kennecke: How was one different than the first? I'm, I'm curious cuz we're working on this project at Emily's Hope. So how was the grief group for parents who've lost children from a stigmatized deathlike? Substance use disorder or just 

[00:14:44] Ann Breeding: overdose is not a natural death if you have cancer.

It's a medical condition. 

[00:14:53] Angela Kennecke: Although addiction is a medical condition, 

addiction is a disease, 

[00:14:56] Ann Breeding: but they don't look at it that way. Right? Most people don't culture the culture. Culture, yes. Right? And so therefore, this thing happened out of their control. because most people think that they could've, culture thinks that this is gonna, is just a choice, right?

So it's a natural thing. I wanna say, when someone dies from a medical concern versus, well, that was their choice. They put it in their body and now they're gone. That's a consequence of a poor choice. So when we go to the other group of people who get substance use disorder fully, and we compare stories.

We are no longer alone 

[00:15:37] Angela Kennecke: and not unique. I mean, really not unique. I stopped asking why me a long time ago and started asking why not me? 

[00:15:45] Natalie Kritenbrink: Right. 

[00:15:45] Angela Kennecke: You know, we, our stories all have common threads that, you know, there may be a few details that are different, but there are common threads and even, even the kids that just take one pill and die, there are common threads.

Mm-hmm. . 

[00:15:58] Ann Breeding: Yes. 

[00:15:58] Angela Kennecke: So I think. We are not unique. We are not special. We are just suffering along with so many hundreds of thousands of other parents, right? 

[00:16:09] Ann Breeding: Correct. 

Which is why I am very vocal about talking about it because 

[00:16:13] Angela Kennecke: I love that. 

[00:16:13] Ann Breeding: I truly believe that. Yeah. So that's why said, you guys are my people. Yeah.

So , that's how you crush the stigma, right? Yes. It's a thing and it's everywhere, and we're losing someone every five minutes, right? Why is this not all over the news? Why are the politicians not involved? Why? Why isn't stuff being changed? To prevent another mom sitting here. 

[00:16:31] Angela Kennecke: And some of that stuff is happening, but in a, it's not the main focus of everything.

Like when during the pandemic, what did we hear about day in, day out, covid.

[00:16:38] Ann Breeding: Right. 

[00:16:39] Angela Kennecke: And when I speak to people, I show a slide where I talk about these numbers of deaths. And if you add on alcohol related deaths, it's about 700 deaths a day. and I show a crashed airliner because if you had a jumbo jet full of 700 people falling out of the sky every day, what would we be doing in this country?

[00:16:57] Natalie Kritenbrink: Mm-hmm. , 

[00:16:57] Ann Breeding: right? 

[00:16:57] Natalie Kritenbrink: Mm-hmm. . 

[00:16:57] Angela Kennecke: It would be on the news. It would be headline. I mean, they would ground all the flights, but that is what is happening. Mm-hmm. , yes, but because it happens in the shadows. 

[00:17:05] Natalie Kritenbrink: Mm-hmm. . 

[00:17:05] Ann Breeding: Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:06] Angela Kennecke: and because people are in one hand, so grief stricken and sometimes so stigmatized and probably ashamed or don't wanna talk about it.

Right. You're. getting the attention on it. And because it, people still have those ideas that, oh, that happens over here to somebody else. 

[00:17:21] Natalie Kritenbrink: Mm-hmm. , 

[00:17:21] Angela Kennecke: right? 

[00:17:21] Natalie Kritenbrink: Mm-hmm. . 

[00:17:22] Ann Breeding: Yeah. Yeah, 

yeah. It happens in Bonderant, Iowa. It happens in Ankeny, Iowa. It happens in every neighborhood. It happens in every tax bracket. It doesn't matter what color of skin you are, it does not discriminate.

And it's knocking on your door, whether you know it or not, which is what we try to tell people so that they get it 

[00:17:40] Natalie Kritenbrink: right. And in my son's case, he had all the. All the resources that he could possibly have needed and it still didn't work. 

[00:17:51] Angela Kennecke: Right. And that's the frustrating part cuz people will always ask me, what can I do? How can I stop this? and there are no easy answers and there are no guarantees. Yes. In every while, there is this common thread I talked about. What works for one person to get well, doesn't always work for the other person, and there's no pat answer and everybody just wants a pat answer. And I'm, I'm a journalist.

I'm a researcher. Mm-hmm. . So when I was dealing with some of this stuff with my daughter, I mean, I researched the heck out of it. I didn't find the answers. 

[00:18:22] Natalie Kritenbrink: Mm-hmm. , 

[00:18:23] Angela Kennecke: and people come to me and sometimes they're d. , you know, and I don't know what to tell him. Mm-hmm. . 

[00:18:28] Ann Breeding: Right? 

[00:18:28] Angela Kennecke: Like you said, your son had all the resources.

[00:18:30] Ann Breeding: Mm-hmm. 

and support. I mean, he had, but also, yeah, 

[00:18:34] Angela Kennecke: but also if Fentanyl weren't in the drug supply. Now in your son's case, that may not be true, Ann because he used after a long a period of not using, but in your son's case, was it straight fentanyl or. 

[00:18:46] Ann Breeding: No. 

[00:18:47] Angela Kennecke: Was it the fentanyl that killed him? Natalie? 

[00:18:49] Natalie Kritenbrink: No, no, no.

It wasn't the fentanyl. Fentanyl was in there. Car fentanyl was in there. 

[00:18:54] Angela Kennecke: Car fentanyl. Now that's, we 

should let our listeners know that's elephant tranquilizer and it takes like a speck of that to kill someone. 

[00:19:00] Natalie Kritenbrink: Yeah. It wasn't the, it wasn't the main cause of his death. It was the combo. 

[00:19:05] Angela Kennecke: The combination.

[00:19:06] Natalie Kritenbrink: Yeah, that's what I was, 

[00:19:07] Angela Kennecke: but if Fentanyl hadn't been in these combinations, 

[00:19:09] Natalie Kritenbrink: I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. 

[00:19:12] Angela Kennecke: Because I do think that Fentanyl is the game changer in the whole thing, 

[00:19:15] Natalie Kritenbrink: Absolutely. (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:19:16] Angela Kennecke: In fact, the DEA says Fentanyl is the single deadliest drug threat our nation has ever faced, and we must take every opportunity to spread the word. Just a tiny two milligram spec can be deadly. We recently spoke with addiction medicine doctor Matt Stanley, about the danger.

.

[00:19:38] Matt Stanley: with opioids, sometimes it's one slip and it's fatal. I think they're playing on the street. They're playing Russian roulette every time they buy. because you, you don't know. You don't know what you're getting.

And those are deadly, deadly 

 drugs out there. 

[00:19:50] Angela Kennecke: Dr. Stanley says that's why prevention is key.

And, and that's what you ladies are focused on now? 

[00:20:03] Ann Breeding: Yes. Because there's a reason, regardless of what drug it is, the outcome has been the same for all of us parents and, and the core focus is they felt the need to self-medicate for a reason. So focusing on the prevention side is so huge because if we could prevent them from feeling the need to self medicate It wouldn't matter what the drug was or how many times we wouldn't be having a funeral, so that that is big. 

[00:20:32] Natalie Kritenbrink: Right. 

[00:20:32] Angela Kennecke: What do you think is the main way that the loss of your sons has changed you? 

[00:20:40] Ann Breeding: I had to be quiet because of stigma, because of the judgment that I would receive through our journey if I were to help him, if I did love him unconditionally.

Well, you shouldn't do that. You should cut all ties. We can't talk anymore if you still talk to him. Okay. We did the court order, and I told them everything. 

[00:20:57] Angela Kennecke: All the tough love. 

[00:20:58] Ann Breeding: Yes, I did all that in the beginning and it didn't work and it was getting worse, so I. Court committal and I told them everything and I go in front of the judge three days later and I told them long-term locked up residential court ordered has to happen or he's going to die.

Three days later we go into the courthouse. All rise, sit down Mr. Bailey, we're gonna go ahead and release you today. You come back in a week and you'll do outpatient treatment. 

[00:21:21] Angela Kennecke: Don't you think it's, the system is not set up to treat this disease? 

[00:21:26] Ann Breeding: I. It's broken. It's very broken 

[00:21:28] Angela Kennecke: everywhere, 

[00:21:29] Ann Breeding: every aspect. 

[00:21:30] Angela Kennecke: Yes. In this country. 

[00:21:31] Ann Breeding: Yes. 

[00:21:31] Angela Kennecke: It doesn't matter where you go. 

[00:21:32] Ann Breeding: Yes. Yeah. 

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:21:34] Angela Kennecke: Dr. Stanley is seeing some progress though, including more healthcare systems, getting involved in addiction treatment. 

[00:21:43] Matt Stanley: We kind of years ago went on dichotomous systems. Addictions were done by private companies, healthcare systems focused on chronic illness.

They were separate and acute. They're very separate systems. But as you can see with the Vera, we're saying, no, this belongs in the same, under the same tent we are. This is a medical illness. This is impacting the outcomes of many, many of our community and our patients, and we want to have a direct. Line to treating that and treating it well

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:22:10] Angela Kennecke: Unfortunately those changes came too late for these two moms. That's why they're raising awareness to prevent other families from experiencing a similar loss.

so it's changed you how? 

[00:22:30] Ann Breeding: It has changed me because I no longer have to be quiet. I no longer have to be quiet. My son had a conversation with me and said, mom, you love unconditionally. Like you don't judge people. And it's kind of cool, but it's kind of weird.

And I think you should really think about doing some sort of outreach to help people like. Then he died. 

[00:22:49] Angela Kennecke: Wow. 

[00:22:51] Ann Breeding: I'm a mom on a mission and I am shouting it from the rooftops to every person that's willing to listen. And if you're not willing to listen, I'm gonna invite you in any way, cuz you're gonna hear what I have to say.

[00:23:00] Angela Kennecke: And I think it, there are power in numbers, right? So as these numbers increase, and I think it takes, I've said this a few times on my podcast, I think it takes a bunch of, Pissed off moms to change the world. 

[00:23:13] Ann Breeding: It's a righteous anger and it's there. 

[00:23:14] Angela Kennecke: Absolutely. It's a righteous anger. And plus you mentioned that like you could speak now, I've always been very vocal, but also the worst thing happened to me, happened to you and to you.

who cares if somebody doesn't like what you say? 

[00:23:29] Ann Breeding: No holds Bard. 

[00:23:30] Angela Kennecke: What is the worst thing that can happen to you? It's already happened. 

[00:23:33] Ann Breeding: Yes. 

[00:23:34] Angela Kennecke: To you and that. 

[00:23:35] Natalie Kritenbrink: Yes. 

[00:23:35] Angela Kennecke: So what have you got to lose? 

[00:23:36] Ann Breeding: So if your biggest fear becomes your reality, you have no longer fear. It's, there's no fear. You do what you have to do.

[00:23:43] Angela Kennecke: Right? 

[00:23:43] Ann Breeding: And it doesn't matter what people think. 

[00:23:45] Angela Kennecke: Right? 

I think that enabled me to leave my job of 33 years recently, because the worst things already happened to me. So yes, I know I can handle whatever is coming where before I was maybe more locked in for security purposes. 

[00:23:59] Ann Breeding: I told Natalie on the way here, when I grow up, I'm gonna be just like you,

That's what I told her. I said, I'm gonna quit my job. Do this steps. Full-time and do what we've gotta do. 

[00:24:09] Angela Kennecke: You will. You will, 

you will. I'm, I'm a little, I mean, my daughter died in 2018, so we didn't start off, you know, as much as we're doing now. It took four years to build to this point, and I know, I know you will.

So, Natalie, how has your son's death and the grief and the loss changed to you? 

[00:24:27] Natalie Kritenbrink: Oh wow. In so many ways. I'm just, I'm not the same person, you know? 

[00:24:32] Angela Kennecke: No, 

[00:24:32] Natalie Kritenbrink: I'm just not the same person. 

[00:24:33] Angela Kennecke: I would say none of us aren't. 

Right. Is there a parent out there who's lost a child who's the same? 

[00:24:37] Natalie Kritenbrink: Yeah. 

[00:24:38] Angela Kennecke: And you mourn the loss of that person In a way, I'm mourned the loss of the, that I didn't think something like I could happen. To me, sort of the ignorance, I'm more in that per that kind of 

[00:24:48] Natalie Kritenbrink: Yes. Yeah. And yeah, I never dreamed, you know, my son was so smart and he was smart about everything. , including the way he took his drugs. And I never in a million years thought that he would mess up and take too much, you know? So yeah, I, I'm more compassionate.

Yes, I'm way less judgmental. 

[00:25:11] Angela Kennecke: A hundred I would agree with 

you a hundred percent. 

[00:25:12] Natalie Kritenbrink: Yeah. 

And I when I see somebody in need, I just want to take action for them in whatever way they need. and I feel it, you know, from like inside of me, I feel. . Another way that this has changed me is I'm all about self-care. Because I have absolutely have to have it. 

So let's talk about that for a minute, because we have a lot of parents listening to this podcast who've lost children some very recently. 

Mm-hmm. . 

[00:25:42] Angela Kennecke: What part of self-care, what have you done to take care of yourself so that you feel better?

I have taken time. I mean above, above all else. I think the biggest thing that I've done for myself is to not go so much, not be so active in life. You know, I've needed to slow down. It's like forced me. To slow down and take more time for myself. (MUSIC UP!) It's not just Natalie and Anne who've had to deal with unimaginable grief because of their son's deaths, but also their entire families. (MUSIC UP!) 

How many other kids do you have, Anne? 

[00:26:33] Ann Breeding: So we have a blended family, so there's a total of six, six

[00:26:35] Angela Kennecke: kids total. Mm-hmm. . How has your son's death affected everybody else in the family? 

[00:26:41] Ann Breeding: Well, so I will say that because of the 12 years of our journey, most of them separated themselves early. So there wasn't really a relationship.

It did affect my daughter. And and my stepson the most because my stepson did have a relationship with him and he wishes that he would've done more. But he's in a different state, so, and then my daughter Cheyenne, she had lost her stepsister two years prior to a heroin overdose. Yes. So, and that, that wrecked her, it did really big.

And then, and. Her brother, so 

[00:27:17] Angela Kennecke: I think people forget about the siblings sometimes, or all the young people that are affected by their sibling's use. 

[00:27:23] Ann Breeding: Yes. 

[00:27:23] Angela Kennecke: I just spoke to a group of college kids and I had a couple come up afterwards and talk to me about how their sibling was using and. , you know, they're devastated.

[00:27:32] Ann Breeding: Yes. And there's a lot of guilt because they, 

[00:27:35] Angela Kennecke: because they get angry too. They get why, why can't, yes. Why can't you just act how you're supposed to? 

[00:27:40] Ann Breeding: Right. And my daughter would see the hurt that I would go through, and she hated it. And, and she hated it. So she, yeah. She was mad at him and now she's got guilt because of that.

[00:27:50] Angela Kennecke: Mm-hmm. . 

[00:27:51] Ann Breeding: And she wishes she would've done more. 

[00:27:53] Angela Kennecke: Yeah those are just normal natural things that happen during the course of this disease. Especially how misunderstood it is, and especially for a, like an adolescent or whoever's growing up, you know, when you're growing up with somebody right? Like this, it's, it's very hard.

It disrupts the entire family. The whole family is just, it sure does of kilter and they see the pain that that child is causing their sibling is causing their mom, right? And. That's devastating for them too. Yeah. 

[00:28:24] Ann Breeding: Yes it is. It changes everybody. 

[00:28:29] Angela Kennecke: How have people, and you can both answer this question in your life or close to you, reacted to your grief, to this loss? Have people been supportive? Have they walked away? What's happened? 

[00:28:43] Natalie Kritenbrink: A little bit of both for me. 

[00:28:44] Ann Breeding: Me too. 

[00:28:45] Angela Kennecke: Me too. 

[00:28:45] Ann Breeding: Me too. Me too. 

[00:28:46] Angela Kennecke: Yeah. Okay. Little bit of both.

We all share a similar experience. Yeah. 

[00:28:49] Ann Breeding: I feel like I have a new family in my mom. . Yeah. Like we just have that bond that is, there's no words to describe it, but we just, we get each other and that's a big deal. Yeah. I do have a church family that's always been supportive. And that was one of my things after my son died. It's like, you know, nobody was there, everybody walked away. It was always about money. We don't wanna help him cuz it's really about money. When it wasn't about money. But the, the one solid foundation that I had was my church. They, they were there for us. 

[00:29:20] Angela Kennecke: So you never had a crisis of faith in any of this?

[00:29:23] Ann Breeding: You know, here's the thing. God didn't take my son drugs. The enemy of my soul had his way with my son, so my fight is with him, not with God. That that's my faith has not shattered in any way, shape, or form. I do have that why question. I'll get that answered when I get there. 

[00:29:43] Angela Kennecke: What do you think happens after we die?

[00:29:45] Ann Breeding: Well, you're either one way or you're the other. 

[00:29:50] Angela Kennecke: Do you feel your sons are with you? Have you had signs or. 

[00:29:56] Natalie Kritenbrink: I have, 

[00:29:57] Angela Kennecke: you guys are looking at each other. I wish we had this on video. These conversations we're smiling at each other and I different, I ask cuz almost every parent who's lost a child and I've had some pretty strong signs, I've talked about 'em and are written about them as well and I think you can believe 'em or not believe 'em. What's the harm? 

[00:30:15] Ann Breeding: Right? 

[00:30:16] Natalie Kritenbrink: I, I absolutely believe in them and I believe. , I mean, for the longest time after Zach died, because, hi, he had two of his best friends that had died before him. And Zach died after, shortly after, not even a week after Kobe Bryant. And Kobe Bryant was a huge, huge idol of Zacks. He loved him.

And anyway. It brings me peace to know that. And Derek Thomas was another big idol of his, he was a chiefs Kansas City Chiefs player that died when Zach was in elementary school or middle school. It brings me such peace to know that he is with his best friends, that he's with his idols, that You know, he is no longer suffering.

You know, that all brings me peace. it doesn't take the grief away at all. But it does bring me peace 

[00:31:12] Angela Kennecke: or the longing to be physically with your child. 

[00:31:15] Natalie Kritenbrink: Right? 

[00:31:15] Angela Kennecke: I think that will always 

[00:31:16] Natalie Kritenbrink: absolutely 

be there to yeah. The missing him, I mean, I miss him. More than anything. But I do feel peace that. that I, you know, I don't believe in a hell. I think, my God loves everybody and he would have, saved our boys, anybody's child from any sort of demonn, or, saved in a way that they're at peace. , 

[00:31:47] Angela Kennecke: Mm-hmm. . 

[00:31:48] Ann Breeding: And I was never a believer of signs, which is why we kind of giggle because I'm like, everybody talks about these signs.

I don't think that's a real thing. But, but then cer certain things started happening and I was going. . Okay. That's really weird. That's really weird. And then I'd have my meltdown, and then it would be put on my heart that God leaves the 99 to save the one. And then I'm going, okay. All right. What are the chances that, that he, he did, you know, ask Christ into his heart and he is with him right now.

Like, what are the chances? If that's the case, then hallelujah. You know, he's free. and then I'd go and I'd talk to Natalie and I would talk to my pastor. I'm like, do you believe in signs? Like where is this in the Bible? And stuff like that. . My pastor looked at me and he goes, so you don't think that God could use certain things?

To kind of show you and reveal things. And it's like putting God in a box, which I was always big on. Don't ever put God in a box. He can do what he wants. Right? So, so then I said, well, okay, it's really odd because I'm sitting here watching T c t total Christian Television on a day that I was at home doing nothing.

And, and all of a sudden I hear this, I'm in the bathroom and I hear this bluegrass song, which Daniel was big into. Twangy Bluegrassy stuff, and I'm like, oh, that's just weird. Why are they playing music on this channel? Usually it's a ask the pastor thing, and I come around the corner and it's this bluegrass band, and they are singing a song saying, I took the right train.

My son was a train hopper. I'm like, how does this even happen? So now I'm, I'm like, okay, this is really weird. Like there's some weird stuff going on. So I'm not gonna take away from the science thing anymore just because I'm. , what are the chances? And yes, those signs can be used. Whatever the faith may be to, to give you hope 

[00:33:35] Angela Kennecke: and comfort.

[00:33:36] Ann Breeding: Yes. Comfort. 

[00:33:37] Angela Kennecke: Yes. Comfort. 

[00:33:38] Natalie Kritenbrink: So, and I realized I didn't finish my thought when I was talking about my son and the friends that went before him. I went a long time without a sign from him and I kept thinking, why hasn't he reached out? And he was, we were very close and he cared so much, you know, he was, caring and loving.

And I'm like, why hasn't he given me some sort of a sign? And then I would tell myself he's too busy catching up with his friends and chasing down Kobe and chasing down Derek Thomas, and you know, and then I had a dream about him. And you remember me telling you,

[00:34:16] Ann Breeding: I do 

[00:34:16] Natalie Kritenbrink: my dream.

[00:34:17] Ann Breeding: I do. 

[00:34:17] Natalie Kritenbrink: I was like blubbering because of the way he came to me in my dream, and that was absolutely a sign, absolutely a sign to let me know that this is his life now as opposed to what it was. before, you know 

[00:34:33] Angela Kennecke: what happened in the dream? 

[00:34:35] Natalie Kritenbrink: He came to me. Without speaking, it was just his face. He looked way younger than he was. He looked healthy. He had, he didn't have facial hair. I mean, it was just like, he looked like the picture. Not that facial hair is at the picture of health. It's so popular now.

But, but anyway. . He just looked so incredibly healthy and he was looking at me and he was smiling, and I kept asking him, what, what? Why are you just looking at me? What? And it dawned on me after I woke up and after I gave it thought he was letting me know I'm great. I am awesome now. This is me. I'm healthy, I'm happy.

And you don't have to worry about. . 

[00:35:19] Angela Kennecke: Well, that's wonderful. Yeah, it was amazing. 

[00:35:22] Natalie Kritenbrink: I've not had another one since I've only jumped

[00:35:24] Angela Kennecke: about Emily three times, three, 

four years. 

[00:35:26] Natalie Kritenbrink: Yeah. Okay. So, 

[00:35:27] Angela Kennecke: so yeah, I've only done, it's only happened to me, to me. 

[00:35:30] Natalie Kritenbrink: The one time my son, I 

[00:35:31] Angela Kennecke: asked to dream about her. Yes. You know, but it doesn't happen.

[00:35:34] Natalie Kritenbrink: Yes. And my middle son, 

[00:35:36] Angela Kennecke: how many kids do you have? 

[00:35:37] Natalie Kritenbrink: I have three. I mean, two now. 

[00:35:39] Angela Kennecke: Two living right. 

[00:35:40] Natalie Kritenbrink: Two living sons. But my middle son, A dream about Zach much earlier. And it was the exact same idea. He came to him like he was driving this little train like thing or a car, race car kind of thing. And there was like a hooded something, something blocking who was driving this vehicle.

And my son said as he got closer, it opened up and there was Zach sitting there and he just had a smile on his face. He didn't say anything. He just had a smile on, on his face looking. Looking at him and he totally, totally was like, this is, and he told me this like maybe a year, year before I had my dream and then I had my dream and it, they were so similar, but I find feathers all the time in the craziest places.

And that's another, another sign. And I save them, I save them all in a little dish in my. . 

[00:36:33] Angela Kennecke: How many have you found? 

[00:36:34] Natalie Kritenbrink: I have not counted them. , 

[00:36:36] Angela Kennecke: is it a, is a dish full ? 

[00:36:38] Natalie Kritenbrink: No, it's not full. It's not full, but there are a lot. 

[00:36:42] Angela Kennecke: Mm-hmm. 

[00:36:42] Natalie Kritenbrink: A lot. As a matter of fact, just yesterday there was one sitting on my couch. . A little, little tiny feather just sitting on my couch when I went to sit down.

[00:36:50] Angela Kennecke: So where do we go from here? What's next for you guys?

[00:36:54] Ann Breeding: Well, I've got the Steps of Hope Iowa, which crazy enough, became a nonprofit in the state of Iowa. The. October 28th, which is almost two years today. 

[00:37:04] Angela Kennecke: Congratulations. 

[00:37:05] Ann Breeding: Thanks. I think , it's bittersweet, right? It's like I'd rather have my kid, which we get 

[00:37:11] Angela Kennecke: of course. But you are making, you are making the most out of what life has handed you.

You ch you know, we've all had I say that deep, dark night of the soul, right? 

[00:37:21] Ann Breeding: Right. 

[00:37:22] Angela Kennecke: And you can allow it to take you on another path or you can shut down or ignore it. or try to go on with life as normal. And I think when you choose to follow that unknown path, it can lead to many miracles and blessings.

Right. Doesn't take away anything from the loss. 

[00:37:42] Ann Breeding: Right. 

[00:37:42] Angela Kennecke: It doesn't make the loss better. 

[00:37:45] Ann Breeding: Right. 

[00:37:46] Angela Kennecke: It just makes your life different. 

[00:37:48] Ann Breeding: Well, the day the sheriff gave me my news, I had. A stirring in my soul like no other, that God was gonna do something. And I did not know what that was. I had no clue and I didn't care, like, okay, whatever.

But it was there and it was very strong. So at his service, I told everybody, God's gonna do something. And I don't know what, but I know that he took the cross and he made it into something beautiful. So he's gonna take this tragedy and he's gonna do something beautiful with it. And I don't know what that is.

I have no clue, but I believe that it's gonna happen because of how strong this is. and sure enough, you know, I prayed about it and six months after he had passed, we had our first annual steps of, it was not Steps of Hope, it was an overdose awareness walk, which I literally reached out to another mom from another organization and said, what am I supposed to do?

What's the first step? I don't know what I'm doing, and I'm in brain fog and I can't function. She said, oh, just create a Facebook event page and show up to. . Okay. That sounded simple. So a person from my church, I called her, I said, here's what I've gotta do. And she said, all right, I'm gonna do it with you.

We're gonna do it together. We're gonna do it on his birthday every year, no matter what, what day of the week it is. And I went, okay, but there won't be people showing up if it's on a weekday. And she said, I know you. You'll sit at home and cry every. Instead, you're gonna honor your son by doing what he asked you to do and helping people.

And it's gonna bring you joy and it's gonna do something for you. And we're gonna do it on his birthday every year. And I went, that makes sense. Someone had to make sense. She did. So we did the thing on the first year, second year, Lord, are we gonna do this? This jury changed up and he said, steps of hope.

[00:39:34] Angela Kennecke: I love how you use hope in your name. That's why, I mean, we, none of us have lost hope. Right. 

[00:39:40] Ann Breeding: And I've, I was desperate for hope at that point in my journey, and I thought, okay, I need hope. Who doesn't need hope? So let's do the thing. And it has just the things that have just fallen into my lap. I haven't gone out searching or marketing or any, it is just, it's all just happening.

And so I, people are like, well, are you gonna quit your job and do this full time? I'm like, none of what in the last two years has happened in my life has been anything that I've had intentions of. . So what I'm gonna do, I don't know what's gonna happen tomorrow. 

[00:40:11] Angela Kennecke: So have you been raising funds as well as doing the walk then?

[00:40:14] Ann Breeding: No, I just pay for everything outta my pocket. 

[00:40:16] Angela Kennecke: Oh, wow. . Yeah, right. I know you need to get some sponsors for that walk of yours. 

[00:40:20] Ann Breeding: You know what that is. You know what that is. It's part of my problem that I need to work on because of the money scenario of 12 years of nobody wanting to help and I just have to figure this out and do these things on my own.

that's what this is. And now, now, I had no intention of being a nonprofit. I had no intentions of doing any of this, but now I'm forced to become a nonprofit because other organizations in this last year have said, we wanna help you, but we can't unless you're a nonprofit. And I'm like, okay. I don't know how to do that either.

we'll get through it. And someone from my church actually helped me do that. So. 

[00:41:01] Angela Kennecke: Wonderful. 

[00:41:01] Ann Breeding: Yeah. So here we are. 

[00:41:03] Angela Kennecke: And Natalie, 

Are you doing anything to honor Zach 

[00:41:06] Natalie Kritenbrink: I do a lot of things, but they are quiet things. You know, that's okay. 

[00:41:10] Ann Breeding: Yeah. They're things, that's all that matters. 

[00:41:11] Natalie Kritenbrink: Yep. 

[00:41:12] Angela Kennecke: Yeah. I gimme an example. 

[00:41:13] Natalie Kritenbrink: Well, I had these cards made and they talk about Zach and the bright light. He was in so many people's lives, and I ask for, I give it to someone along with something else and I ask on the, For them to just pass it along.

Any act of kindness. anything you can do for someone else. It can be anything that they pass it along and, you know, keep shining. Zach's light, keep Zach's light shining in this world, in kindness to others. 

[00:41:43] Angela Kennecke: I think that's beautiful and I think that's the right thing for you to do. 

[00:41:46] Natalie Kritenbrink: Yes, yes.

Right. 

[00:41:47] Angela Kennecke: It might be right for Anne Yes. To start a nonprofit, but it's right for Natalie to. Pay it forward and pass along acts of kindness in Zach's name. 

[00:41:56] Natalie Kritenbrink: Yes. 

[00:41:57] Angela Kennecke: So you're both doing the right things. Yes, and I don't think we should ever compare ourselves to other people or what other people are doing. You know, I, what I did, I did because I had a platform.

[00:42:07] Ann Breeding: Right. 

[00:42:07] Angela Kennecke: And I thought, I gotta use it, right? Mm-hmm. , you know? Mm-hmm. . Yeah. 

[00:42:10] Ann Breeding: It's a huge puzzle. And every person has a piece to that puzzle, and by putting that puzzle together, we're going to make a difference. It's a together thing. Yep. 

[00:42:19] Angela Kennecke: We are, I, I met you guys about an hour ago and I already know that you guys are making a huge difference and together we have to do it together.

[00:42:27] Ann Breeding: Absolutely. 

[00:42:28] Angela Kennecke: That's the thing. Yep. So thank you so much for being on the podcast. 

[00:42:31] Natalie Kritenbrink: Thank you. Thanks for 

[00:42:32] Ann Breeding: having us, us. Yeah. Thank you. And thanks for what you do. Absolutely. 

[00:42:34] Angela Kennecke: Oh, you're so welcome.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

Thanks for tuning into this episode of Grieving Out Loud. If you wanna hear more podcasts, read my blog or find resources for help. Check out our website at Emily's Hope dot charity. We have some really interesting episodes coming up from our D E A conference series. Including one with a bereaved parent who lost her son to Fentanyl after buying what he thought was a Percocet on Snapchat.

We'll also hear from a mother whose daughter died after buying drugs from her stepbrother, who then tragically took his own life. While these stories are painful, I believe that by sharing our struggles, we can lessen the suffering of others. So let's keep walking through life together. And until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage.

And don't forget, if you found this podcast valuable, we would greatly appreciate a positive review. It helps us spread our mission and reduce stigma surrounding substance use disorder and connecting more people with treatment.