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[00:00:00] Sarah Crosby:  It just, Breaks my heart to think of how much pain he has lived with. And, but he's starting to really address that pain and his perspectives. 

[00:00:12] Megan Eichacker: You're a totally different person and it's evil and it's, it takes you over, it's like a darkness that takes you over. 

[00:00:20] Jessica Pfau: I'm a mother and I'm a wife, and my little boy needs me. Uh, my parents didn't raise me this way at all. I know somewhere deep down that I'm better than this, but at the same time, when my addiction takes hold of me, I don't care about anything but that addiction

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[00:00:41] Angela Kennecke: Welcome to the 100th episode of Grieving Out Loud. I'm Angela Kennecke. This week we're celebrating a milestone here at the Emily's Hope Podcast. It all started in April of 2019. As I was approaching the one year anniversary of my daughter, Emily's death from Fentanyl poisoning, I decided to put on a podcast to let other families know they're not alone in dealing with addiction loss and.

In my very first episode, I talked about the day I lost my daughter the day I posted on Instagram before her death. That beauty is all around us.

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 I'm gonna tell you this story now so that later I can tell you about her life and about how I've been coping with her.

The latest chapter in my life began on May 16th. It was one of those spring days, the kind you only get a handful of, especially in South Dakota. There were blossoms on the trees that white cotton filled the air flowers were starting to bloom. I took some pictures, put them on my Instagram story of the blooming trees, and I wrote, beauty is all around us.

Little did I know, several hours. My whole world would come crashing down upon me. It was a pretty normal day at work, but there was one odd thing about it. I was working on a story on overdoses, specifically good Samaritan laws and overdoses, and how when people overdose in a group setting, partying with friends, the good Samaritan laws come into play.

If they call for help, the other people won't get arrested. And it wasn't unusual for me to be working on a story on the opioid. I'd done a lot of them for the past couple of years, and I knew there was a problem with my daughter. I just didn't know what, ironically, we were planning an intervention because she just seemed out of it and things didn't seem right and her life wasn't going in the direction that it should have been, and I'd confronted her.

Over and over and over again, and she'd always said, no, I don't have anything wrong and denied. I knew about the marijuana. That was pretty obvious. And I'd later learned about some pills in the benzo class like Xanax, but she swore to me she'd gotten off of those. I had no idea about the opioids, none whatsoever.

So as I was working on this story on the opioid crisis, I really wasn't thinking that my daughter would die of an opioid. I was thinking that something was wrong with her and that she wouldn't tell us about it and that we needed to get her help. And I was scared because a few days earlier I had learned that one of her friends had died of an overdose.

 I was leaving work and I thought, wouldn't it be great if we could go hiking together?

So I text her, wanna go hiking at Good Earth State Park? No response. I called her, no answer. Now, this was unusual. Emily had always called me right away or text me back because she knew I worried about her. But I told myself not to panic and I waited a little bit and I went home and had dinner with my family.

And then I decided since I hadn't heard back from Emily, that she must be with her friends. And I went to Costco to buy flowers to plant in my pots. A leaving Costco. I got a phone call. It was from her dad. He spoke in a tone I'd never heard before. Emily's odi, he said, I think she's dead. My mind. Reeled.

Huh? What? I don't remember hanging up the phone. I don't remember starting the car. I do remember driving the wrong way, in the wrong direction. Not toward Emily's a. Turned around and drove as fast as I could. I got there and outside was parked an ambulance and people had gathered a couple of police cars.

The side door to the apartment was open. I ran upstairs as fast as I could, skipping steps. People seemed to be everywhere in the hallways on the stairway. I didn't see any of their faces as I approached her apartment. There was a police officer standing out front in the hallway, just outside the door. He tried to block.

I said something I'd never said before in my 30 years of being on television, I had never used this line. Don't you know who I am? I said, I know who you are. He said, but you're not getting in there. Suddenly someone made a noise and he was distracted. He turned his head and I bolted on by him. I rushed into the apartment.

There were emergency personnel everywhere, firefighters, EMTs, police officers, Emily's dad, my ex-husband was standing in the living room. I can't even describe the look on his. Tears streaming down his cheeks. I turned toward her room where a group of EMTs were working on her. I asked, are there any vitals?

They had her hooked up to a machine. They said, we're breathing for her. No vitals. I dropped to my knees. I started to pray and pray for all I knew. I was praying out loud. People were all around me and I didn't care. But 30 minutes later, a man emerged from the bedroom. I think he was a firefighter and he.

We can't save her. There's nothing more we can do. That was the night my daughter died. 

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I can't bring my daughter back, but I can bring awareness to the deadly drug epidemic Awareness, I hope, will prevent other parents from experiencing the same kind of. I went on to interview so many parents and experts in the field of addiction as well as grief. This week we're being of the highlights from the last four years and 100 episodes.

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[00:06:30] Matt Stanley: As a society need to say, yeah, this is, this is killing our best and our brightest. This is affecting 20 or more percent of our population. We need to accept it and we need to address it, and we need to all get behind it.

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[00:06:43] Angela Kennecke: That was Dr. Matt Stanley, a psychiatrist who specializes in addiction care. I spoke with him in a podcast titled, addiction is a disease. Everyone needs to hear this message so we can stop the stigma surrounding substance use disorder and get more people the help they need. 

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Can you explain to people. Why and how addiction is a disease. 

[00:07:09] Matt Stanley: Yeah. I think maybe the easiest thing for people to kind of accept is when we compare it to other chronic diseases. So addiction, much like diabetes, which is a disease we often use as a comparator.

addiction is 

genetically driven. Physiologic changes occur at the receptor level. We have a bunch of neurochemicals in the brain that are affected. It. It really is the physiology of the body that begins to dictate the addiction. I think where people get really hung up is. They feel like this is a disease of choice.

[00:07:42] Angela Kennecke: A moral failing, 

[00:07:43] Matt Stanley: a moral failing, , and , like many illnesses, we as people who care about the people with addictions get really frustrated, get really angry, and I think sometimes that anger is expressed by saying, you. You need to control this.

This is a moral problem. This is a weakness of character. But on the other hand, if you look again at that di, that diagnosis of diabetes, many of, much of that is developed through lifestyle exercise, but it's very genetic. It's very powerful and there are changes you have to commit to, to be able to manage that.

[00:08:15] Angela Kennecke: I think some of the problem that some people have is that with diabetes, the choice may be eating the wrong food. Where with addiction, the choice may be using any illegal drug.

So this is something people are like, well, why did you ever use that in the first place? Or once you used it, why did you keep using it? 

[00:08:31] Matt Stanley: Right. And, and again, I think it's understanding that with our genetics and, and the power of neurochemicals, one exposure can really just flip a switch. That's almost, I won't say impossible, because many, many people have overcome tremendously difficult addictions.

I don't know how to describe when addicts tell you when the light goes on the first time they have this, how they feel. It's just like everything in the world is right. All of a sudden. I know it's been missing. It's a powerful, powerful neurochemical reaction

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[00:09:00] Megan Eichacker: It just hooks you. And after that you keep using because you like it. It's fun and exciting, and you feel different. And then all of a sudden you're starting to not feel so good because you need it.

[00:09:14] Angela Kennecke: (Angela) Megan, I hacker grew up on a farm near a small town in South Dakota. She's not necessarily the person you would think would have substance use disorder

[00:09:26] Megan Eichacker: I ended up getting into drugs and I would see all my friends and classmates, you know, that they're succeeding.

They got that college degree. They did. 

[00:09:35] Angela Kennecke: They passed you by. 

[00:09:36] Megan Eichacker: Yeah, 

[00:09:37] Angela Kennecke: and my, they went on with their lives. And your life was stuck in this cycle of. Probably getting high and getting sick, right? 

[00:09:43] Megan Eichacker: Absolutely. And I was embarrassed and I just didn't even wanna face that, you know? So let's just get high again.

Don't 

[00:09:49] Angela Kennecke: get high to avoid. Yeah, I having to think about it. 

[00:09:51] Megan Eichacker: I wanna, this, let's just get high because when you get high, you have no problem. You know, everything's just okay. 

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[00:09:58] Angela Kennecke: Thankfully, Megan is now in recovery. She's offering hope to others battling an addiction.

[00:10:08] Megan Eichacker: Never give up on your loved one. Never give up on them. Pray for them and let them know that you care 

about them and that you're there for them, and that you'll always have an ear to listen to them because, When somebody is in that addiction, they just, they feel alone.

They feel like nobody cares about them anymore. You feel like everybody hates you. 

And I would just say, don't give up

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[00:10:40] Angela Kennecke: That feeling can also prevent those struggling with substance use disorder from getting the help they need..

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[00:10:50] Joshua Sharfstein: How the country has generally approached addiction. I think for the most part we've approached addiction as as sort of a moral failure. You're a bad person if you're addicted. It's nothing to do with whether there's an issue in your brain.

It's you as a person. And that kind of very judgemental approach has led to. You know, many, many people being arrested, put in jail, put at, you know, risk of overdose and withdrawal. And it's also, you know, hurt many people's lives instead of the alternative, giving people access to treatment where they could actually get better and.

Go on living the lives that they wanna live for themselves and their families. 

[00:11:28] Angela Kennecke: Joshua Sharfstein is a professor of the Practice in Health Policy and Management at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public. He's also the former health commissioner in Baltimore, a principal deputy commissioner of the US Food and Drug Administration and Health Secretary of the State of Maryland. On top of that, his wife is an addiction medicine physician, and together they wrote a book titled The Opioid Epidemic, what Everyone Needs to Know

[00:12:05] Joshua Sharfstein: I think the criminal justice.

Has many counterproductive, uh, effects on people, one of which you just described, which is for someone who really wants to put their life back together, is ready to do things differently, sometimes just having been arrested makes it impossible for them to be successful and they can't get jobs and, and they can't get housing.

And it's just, you know, uh, a vicious cycle for them. 

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[00:12:28] Angela Kennecke: A vicious cycle trapping millions of Americans, including Jessica fau.

[00:12:37] Jessica Pfau: I feel like I should be. the mother that I know.

I can be the wife that I know. I can be the daughter and sister that I know I can be, but I can't pull myself out of it. And it's just, it causes me so much shame that a lot of times I dig deeper into the addiction to try to cover it up, 

[00:12:55] Angela Kennecke: to escape from it.

[00:12:56] Jessica Pfau: Mm-hmm. 

[00:12:56] Angela Kennecke: to escape from the feelings of shame. 

[00:12:57] Jessica Pfau: Yeah.

[00:12:58] Angela Kennecke: Jessica opened up about her heartbreaking story on a podcast titled Wife, mother, and Heroin Addict shares her overdose story. She spoke with us before serving a prison sentence for a heroin overdose. Unfortunately, this wasn't her first time going to prison for drugs.

 Tell me what kind of counseling, what kind of treatment did you get there? 

[00:13:26] Jessica Pfau: If you wanna see mental health, they really don't have a lot to do with you if you're gonna be there for anything, unless.

Within six months. Otherwise they're not gonna be able to help you. They'll tell you in an emergency that you can call them or kite them, but they don't really do anything to adjust any medications or look at those needs that you may have. Uh, as far as any treatment, they don't have chemical dependency treatment at all right now, other than rt, which is a class, they used to do another class, uh, CBIA, but they don't have the staff to do that right now, either.

The last time I was there anyway. 

[00:14:00] Angela Kennecke: so you weren't getting treatment for addiction while you were in there? 

[00:14:04] Jessica Pfau: No, not at all. 

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Sharpstein says that lack of treatment can often turn deadly.

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[00:14:20] Joshua Sharfstein: 

When people get outta jail, maybe a few days later, a few weeks later, they're still have that brain disease.

They're still craving opioids. They go out and maybe use their usual dose, take the same size pill, or you know, the same bag of heroin. And they're at risk now because they've lost their tolerance for overdose and death and to the rate of death among people leaving. Jails is astronomically high. It's something like a hundred times higher than for the general population and in, in that first week or so, it's 10 times higher than it'll be even in, in just a few months.

So it is just an incredibly dangerous time.

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[00:14:58] Angela Kennecke: South Dakota, governor Christie Nom was on the podcast to talk about what's being done to fight drugs in the state, along with how to provide better treatment for those who are suffering.

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[00:15:14] Gov. Kristi Noem: in the past when South Dakota has done stuff, it hasn't been probably comprehensive enough to really turn people's lives around, you know, most of them are incarcerated, not long enough to complete an entire program so that they say we give somebody halfway through the program and then they're released.

 But we could build it out better with an infrastructure. Puts those kind of tools in place so that they can continue with that once they're released as well. And looking at other options for alternative treatment. Our drug courts are incredibly helpful. We've had our DUI courts as well.

We have a mental health court as well, which is something I think is incredibly important cuz so many times with a certain population in the state, if they have mental health issues, then they don't get the kind of diagnosis or help they need. Right away, it ends up in an indicative situation. So those alternative courts are very powerful because it builds in the accountability and, and it's not necessarily just putting them in prison.

[00:16:08] Angela Kennecke: Nom says more than 80% of cases that go through the South Dakota court system. Deal with drugs.

[00:16:20] Gov. Kristi Noem: I just 

sent a letter to every judge in the state. It's asking them to consider, instead of sentencing juveniles to prison, to consider sending them to programs like Teen Challenge.

You know, teen Challenge is a long term commitment. But it is something that doesn't just. on punishment. It focuses on the whole being as an individual and getting counselors and help and people to walk beside you. Now, teen Challenge a lot of times only take young males. Mm-hmm. . So for young females, we're trying to expand that with them.

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[00:16:52] Angela Kennecke: Not only does our nation need better treatment and prevention programs, but for many parents help has not come Soon enough. Carol Morris lost five children to our nation's drug epidemic. You heard that right? Five kids.

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[00:17:15] Carol Morris: My first son that, He was found in stairwell.

We don't, 

[00:17:19] Angela Kennecke: Joey. 

[00:17:20] Carol Morris: Yeah, the next one to drive is. Timmy. So him and his friends were Speedballing, which is heroin and cocaine. Together. He overdosed and the two kids he was with just threw 'em in the other room in the bed and just left him there for nine hours before they called nine. So Brigham Waters had already set in.

There was no hope for him. My daughter, . 

[00:17:40] Angela Kennecke: And that was in 2007 that you lost Lauren? 

[00:17:43] Carol Morris: Yes. In 2007, Timmy died in 2004. Lauren was in 2007. She'd just get out of a a psychiatric hospital. But while she was in there, one of the patients introduced her to Fentanyl patches. Oh. 

She left the hospital in February 28th. They found her dead on the morning of March. No, February 28 days. Steven was heroin. He was in his girl. Hallway when they found him, 

[00:18:09] Angela Kennecke: and then Doug. Doug died in your house? Huh? 

[00:18:12] Carol Morris: My house. Doug stood at the top of my stairs. I said, Doug, I think that you were high y. And he said, no, ma. He says, you know, he says, I'm not, I'm doing good. I love you. He gave me a kiss, gave me a hug. I walked downstairs 

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[00:18:27] Angela Kennecke: And 10 minutes later, her son Doug died.

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[00:18:36] Carol Morris: I cry a lot. I'm sure you do. I, I have anxiety when I stop going to malls because I would see someone that would be built like my child or walk like my child.

So I no longer do that. I no longer do the things that make me think more of them. The other day I cooked noodles for dinner, which is the first time since my son Doug died. And of course he loved Noodle. on Thanksgiving I made stuff and homemade stuff and, and he loved that. That was very hard to do. So all those things trigger a lot of anxiety and depression 

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[00:19:13] Angela Kennecke: Maura says substance use disorder runs in her family. Her children's father battled alcohol addiction. Dr. Naga Harrison, who specialized in addiction treatment says Genetics along with several other factors, play a huge role in whether or not you develop substance use disorder.

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[00:19:39] Nzinga Harrison: depress. Is a risk factor for addiction. Anxiety is a risk factor for addiction. Not having a friend group not belonging is a risk factor for addiction. Your family history biologically is a risk factor for addiction.

Addictive type behaviors around anything sugar thrill seeking. All of that's running through dopamine, and so it's giving us an idea of how your dopamine system functions, and we can use that. As early insights so that we can practice prevention.

[00:20:19] Angela Kennecke: Dr. Harrison says Prevention could save millions of lives, but first, we need to start treating addiction as the disease it is.

So why is it, do 

you think it's so hard for people to accept that? I mean, to accept that addiction is a disease of the brain. To accept it's a disease like diabetes or heart disease that's hereditary. Uh, why is it so hard? 

[00:20:53] Nzinga Harrison: You know, I think because, um, the symptoms of addiction are feelings and social thoughts.

[00:21:02] Angela Kennecke: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:02] Nzinga Harrison: and behaviors. And in this country, we conceptualize the way you think, the way you feel, the way you interact with others as who you are. Right. It's hard to conceptualize those as symptoms. And so, um, it's substance use disorders in addiction are devastating, as you know, right? They steal people from us before they steal our people from us.

It, it becomes very painful, but isn't the same true for Alzheimer's? Isn't the same true for cancer, right? Yes. Like the, the, it just makes it so painful to be with your loved one as that disease progresses and then that disease steals you from us. But it's much easier for me to see weight loss as a symptom than it is to see anger.

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[00:21:56] Angela Kennecke: While there are risk factors for substance use disorder, the disease doesn't impact just a particular race, gender, or socioeconomic class.

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[00:22:10] Sarah Crosby: I always say, we're like the poster family for addiction. It's like I'm a social worker, my husband's a physician. We talked, we had family meals, we talked about. Everything very open.

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[00:22:25] Angela Kennecke: That's Sarah Crosby, who we talked to in an episode called Loving My Son through heroin addiction. Sarah is a trained social worker, but nothing could have prepared her for the treacherous journey of her son's addiction

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We both had children that had every opportunity and came from good homes, so to speak. Yet they both started using marijuana and other drugs at a very young age and progressed onto even harder drugs, which nobody can really underst. exactly why this happens. 

[00:23:00] Sarah Crosby: Well, I think, um, it's, it's certainly incredibly complex and there are many theories out there.

 I do think that, it 

happens with particularly highly sensitive people who are prone to anxiety and or depression. And. Cameron certainly has, our generational anxiety. There are, There's a lot of anxiety, , that runs through my family. And for a person who has high anxiety, I think that particularly opioids become like a hug for them.

[00:23:41] Angela Kennecke: That high. Had Cameron in a downward spiral for 15 years. Thankfully, he is now in recovery. But it hasn't come without so many worries, tears, and years spent trying to find treatment that would work.

[00:23:59] Sarah Crosby: It has to do with society again, it has to do with what is taught in school. How do these kids feel about themselves? Are we paying attention as a society to the sensitivity? Are we teaching kids the joy and process of living and learning or are we just teaching them to a test, um, to, you know, the end result?

 And. . I think that for kids who are highly sensitive, they oftentimes don't fit in that nice little neat box. And , people need to attach. People want to belong. And, and if you, oftentimes I, when working with teenagers, I find that they change themselves to fit in because it gives them a sense of belong.

but they're really just losing themselves. 

[00:24:50] Angela Kennecke: I, I think we, most of us do that, and I don't think I stopped doing that until I hit like 50 years old. So yeah, 

[00:24:55] Sarah Crosby: there's, there's great comfort in, uh, hitting above 50, 

[00:24:59] Angela Kennecke: but I, I do think like there's a lot of parents that are at the point, you know, where I was, seven years ago or you were 15 years.

Just struggling and looking for answers, and, I have a lot of parents reach out to me and they ask me what to do as if I'm the expert on it. And I always say, you know, if I were the expert on it, my child would still be alive. But I, I don't always feel like I have really good advice to offer.

[00:25:23] Sarah Crosby: I think that, you need to take care of yourself first. That's number one. You need to see a therapist. Go to a group talk, talk to people, talk to every. Don't let the shame keep you from talking. Advocate for your child within the schools. See what teachers are thinking, how they feel. How is your kid doing?

Just really don't be afraid to advocate for them. Don't be afraid to talk to them, and yes. If they're doing drugs, they're gonna lie and pull away and your relationship will be completely and absolutely on the rocks. I would, do as much research as possible and 

try to reach out to, you know, specialists in this area. There are some really, really good therapists. There's some decent groups, and above all, when your kid is, still a kid and under your roof, your job is to keep them safe. And. As much as is under your control to keep them alive. Um, it's a little different when they leave your home and they're adults and you really have no control at all.

 But again, I think you do the best when you take care of yourself first. Your kids tend to, Be better. And I, I think there's a lot to be said with changing the dance with them. And by that I mean they will pull you in to their circle of their addicted brain and how it's. Circle talks and how it makes excuses and this and that and what we all wanna do, and what I did a ton of was I would jump right into that circle and get caught up in that circle talk and end up arguing and begging and pleading, and that doesn't work.

So if you look at changing your behavior and your reactions and, and your reactions and, and when they. Reach out to pull you into their dance for you not to take their hand and dance. And if you change your reaction, oftentimes what will happen is they have to change the way they're, relating to you.

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[00:27:34] Angela Kennecke: Oftentimes, parents try everything they can to help their child who is struggling with addiction and nothing works. The pull of the drug is just too strong.

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[00:27:52] Marlyse Williams:  I was so desperate and I tried so hard and, um, and like I still, I still lost him.

And, you know, Logan wanted to get clean too. So that's what's so sad.

[00:28:02] Angela Kennecke: Logan Williams death got international attention. The teen actor made a name for himself playing the young Barry Allen on the CW series. The Flash. He also secretly struggled with an opioid addiction for three years. His mom, Marlis tried to get him help even remortgaging her home to send her son to treatment centers. Despite that, Logan died from Fentanyl poisoning at just 16.

[00:28:32] Marlyse Williams: Now he's gone and he started really telling me, I don't wanna be this person.

Like, I don't know what's wrong with me. I don't wanna be like this mom. Like why am I doing this? And, um, the shame and the stigma. That you feel fighting this fight.

[00:28:49] Angela Kennecke: That shame and stigma has unfortunately continued even after Logan's.

[00:28:56] Marlyse Williams: , I've had some negative feedback, regarding his, career. And people say, well, he should have never gone into acting. And, and I can honestly say it had nothing to do. With with it. It was something he loved doing and he was good at, he told me towards the end of his life that his happiest times were, acting, being on set and he really enjoyed it cause it came natural to him too. He was really good actor. 

 I am. Kind of really irritated and sick of being parent chained for my child of being an addict, because I look back and I go, what did I do wrong? I mean, I got a job that I could be. With him and, and so that I could pick him up from school. I spent quality time with him. My parents have a great relationship with Logan, and he, you know, you, you start, you start going through all these things, and then I just stopped and realized, you know what?

I, if, if love could have saved him, he'd, he'd be living forever.

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[00:29:56] Angela Kennecke: Marice is carrying on Logan's legacy by talking about her son's struggles. Despite the criticism, she hopes. By raising awareness in Logan's Honor, she'll prevent other children from dying.

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[00:30:12] Marlyse Williams: for a long time, um, I wasn't sure if I should because I was aware that there would be a lot of. Feedback, negative feedback, and I didn't want it to tarnish my beautiful boy's image of especially even young kids that loved the Flash or any of the shows he was on. I was very, very concerned about it. But then in a way, I had this need where I felt if I don't say something, if I, if Logan ju, you know, I felt like.

I don't want my son to die in vain. And he created the small spotlight on his life from his, uh, little short-lived acting career. And so now I, I, I just felt that it, I, I am, um, really wanting to use that spotlight and create a legacy and turn. Hopefully this at least create a conversation about the stigma, some of the laws that need to be changed, and this fentanyl that's on the streets, that it's, it's a massacre against our children.

I mean, you do realize, uh, Angela, if you, if you know, if Emily and Logan were born 30 years ago, they'd be living, you know, and that's what's so scary is why are we getting. What about the distributors and the dealers of d dealing with this fentanyl and knowingly killing people? And it's, it's just so mind boggling that, um, we're getting attacked for our character or our children's character who actually were the greatest people.

[00:31:46] Angela Kennecke: You're absolutely correct. I mean, it just, it's sickening to think because we used to think these things were just to rite of passage. They'll grow out of it. Certain kids just lose their way, but they find their way back. But there is no time with fentanyl on the market to find your way back to who you are or who you're supposed to be.

[00:32:04] Marlyse Williams: I believe my son was murdered and I feel

[00:32:07] Angela Kennecke:  he was. Yes. 

[00:32:09] Marlyse Williams: And if Logan was, you know, let's put it. If Logan was given rat poison, there would be a murder investigation. He was given fentanyl. He didn't even know pure fentanyl. He died from, and. and there's no that, that the dealer on the street, unfortunately, of inside information is still dealing and he has killed eight people to date. 

[00:32:30] Angela Kennecke: Oh my goodness.

[00:32:31] Marlyse Williams: This particular individual. You know, knowingly deal. He's not an addict. He's dealing fentanyl. He knows he's dealing fentanyl. People are dying. He knows he killed Logan and he doesn't care.

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[00:32:42] Angela Kennecke: Unfortunately, that story is becoming all too common. Many of our country's opioid overdose deaths involve fentanyl.

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[00:32:54] Laura Didier: When I arrived at the house, they'd already had pronounced him dead and everybody was on the driveway when I got to the house.

And, um, and Chris, , his father, you know, just said, our, our baby is gone. My other two kids helped me up, um, in the shock of it all, 

[00:33:12] Angela Kennecke: Laura Didier's 17 year old son, Zach bought what he thought was a Percocet pill via Snapchat. It actually was 100% Fentanyl. Her son, who was a stellar student and set to start UCLA in the fall was now dead. 

[00:33:30] Laura Didier: All that potential he missed out. It's like he laid the groundwork for, for this beautiful future that he never got to see.

[00:33:41] Angela Kennecke: Didier believes this was only the second time Zach had experimented with illegal drugs.

[00:33:49] Matt Stanley: with opioids, sometimes it's one slip and it's fatal. I think they're playing on the street. They're playing Russian roulette every time they buy. because you, you don't know. You don't know what you're getting.

MUSIC UP!

[00:34:00] Angela Kennecke: It's not just drug overdoses and fentanyl poisoning that can lead to death among those who struggle with substance use disorder. According to multiple studies, more than half of all suicides are associated with dependence on drugs and alcohol.

[00:34:18] Kerry Peluso: she was beautiful.

She had a master's degree. She was smart. She had so much given to her,

MUSIC UP!

[00:34:24] Angela Kennecke: Carrie Paso's daughter's, Samantha was a gifted artist and a great teacher. But she also struggled with heroin addiction in secret,

MUSIC UP!

[00:34:37] Kerry Peluso: we both did the anonymous people, which was a group that originally started to, to reduce the stigma.

And they had done a movie that came out. And Sam had went on Facebook and she wrote about that. It almost killed her and she took it down like a minute later and she's just like, I can't put it out there. Cuz you know, in Georgia she's applying for teaching jobs in, in small towns and she's like, I won't be able to get a job.

Or, and, and teachers where people don't know have to get their contract removed, renewed every single year. So even if you got a job and you had the job, they may not renew your contract. No reason at all. They can, they don't have to give you a reason for not renewing your contract.

MUSIC UP

[00:35:15] Angela Kennecke: Samantha, or as her family called her, Sam struggled with a shame that too often comes with addiction, 

[00:35:23] Kerry Peluso: Who's gonna want me? I, I'm a drug addict. 

[00:35:25] Angela Kennecke: and at the age of 30 she took her own life.

MUSIC POP!

[00:35:32] Kerry Peluso: And she led the mental health awareness and suicide prevention programs at the two schools she worked at. , and she, even at her funeral, we asked, if there was anyone who wanted to get up and speak and a student got up and spoke and she said, I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Sam.

She saved me because she was going to take her own life.

MUSIC UP!

[00:35:50] Angela Kennecke: Even though stories like that have helped Sam's family heal, Carrie says there's no pain like that of losing a.

MUSIC UP!

[00:36:04] Kerry Peluso:  it's not just me being her, it's, it's, um, my, I had to watch now my son. You know, he has to live without a sibling. Mm-hmm. , and he's living with horrible pain. And his wife, he just got married, they had the wedding without her, his wife was best friends with my daughter.

So it's just, there's just, I had to watch them who I love dearly go through so much pain. I've had to watch my husband, my husband, I saw him. Cry three times before we've been married, 34 years. I now, I couldn't even count the times I've seen him cry, you know? And it's just, cuz it's just, it's just so tremendous.

when you say what helped me the most, I, and it sounds, I've heard people say this and it sounds like, oh gosh, how, you know, and at times I've thought, how could it be? But gratefulness, I mean, I think. And even close to the beginning, I thought about, what if I'd never had children?

What if I'd never known Sam? What if she was only meant to be here for 30 years? You know, some say people come down to learn or whatever, or I would never or not wanna be her mother, I would never not have children because this could happen. And, and, and if she could only be here for 30 years, I would've billion times over choose to have been her mother with everything that happened.

Cuz I, I'm, I, you know, it was precious time and I am so thankful. That I had that time with her.

MUSIC UP!

[00:37:22] Angela Kennecke: Throughout this podcast, we not only want to raise awareness about our nation's drug epidemic, we also wanna be a resource for the millions of people grieving after losing a loved one. 

MUSIC UP!

[00:37:36] Mark VandeBraak: we need to do grief work. And that there's no better explanation to it. We have to put time and energy into grieving.

[00:37:46] Angela Kennecke: Mark Vander Brock is a board certified music therapist and theologist, which is a death and grief expert. 

[00:37:53] Mark VandeBraak: Death ends a life, not a relationship. 

[00:37:56] Angela Kennecke: Amanda Brock has worked with more than a hundred thousand people on their grief journeys, including politicians and professional athletes.

I also benefited from his guidance after Emily's death.

[00:38:12] Mark VandeBraak: What I inevitably try to do is help people reconnect with their loved ones. Not in a supernatural way, 

[00:38:18] Angela Kennecke: not like voodoo or spiritual. Spiritual, but I mediums or things like that. 

[00:38:22] Mark VandeBraak: Right. I, I look at it that if we connect with them, if we really listen to our heart, we know that there are presences there. We 

[00:38:33] Angela Kennecke: agree. I feel agree with that. I hear my daughter's voice and sometimes I think I'm crazy, but 

[00:38:37] Mark VandeBraak: No, you're, you're, that's great. Because you're going to hear what they're gonna say. If there's questions, unresolved differences, whatever might be going on, you still can have that conversation in. In all my years of work, I have found that we miss our loved ones physically being here, but we miss talking to them more than anything else in the world.

We miss hearing their voice. Yes. What they say, what they do. If we really, truly. We will know 

[00:39:04] Angela Kennecke: Vander Brock says, writing notes to your lost loved one can also bring healing for one grieving mother. Those notes came in the form of a. Sally Panio lost her 26 year old son Travis, to overdose in 2016. Six months later, she was driving in her car when she heard an unmistakable voice in her heart. 

[00:39:29] Sally Ponzio: And I'm sure you understand, Angela, that during this time period you don't wanna be alone much or in your head too much because it's a very tough time to be alone.

And so it was my first time really alone in a car ride for, you know, two and a half, three hours. and it was tough, um, to be with myself. So, um, I was just driving and all of a sudden, I felt a presence. I felt words coming to me and, I always travel with food and stuff, so I had napkins next to me and I can't even explain it until I realized that it was my.

um, I cannot rhyme anything together, so I knew it wasn't me and he was giving me words. I started writing the words that you were saying on a napkin in my car. I had to pull over. I'll never get over.

I pulled over as the song says, and I started writing the wrong words down on that napkin. And that is actually a picture of the napkin, that we use in the song, in the video. and I just started scribbling words and he was changing them and putting them back. And you can see in one of them, I'm making an arrow, move this here.

And it was the best ride of my life. I mean, spending three hours in the car with him. I didn't even wanna stop to have to go to the bathroom because I thought I would lose him. 

[00:41:13] Angela Kennecke: After the car ride, Sally told her musician brother Frank, about her experience.

Frank, along with singer and songwriter Eleanor Dubinski took the words and put them to music.

[00:41:32] Sally Ponzio: Eleanor sings it like it happened to her.

And, so it's through me, through her that she's singing and I, that's how it feels. You said.

And your arm broken heart. Let my lift you start a new star.

When they started putting it together, we had a great experience because we went to, uh, Joe's Pub in New York City and I flew into New York and at that point they did it live for the first time in front of. and, um,

it was powerful. Um, the audience was, um, taken by it. The reaction was amazing. We did not know that some of the singers had similar, um, stories that all came out. People in the audience, we know one of every three people are affected by addiction right now and overdosing, and. People really came to us and approached us,

[00:42:42] Angela Kennecke: We talked to Sally, Frank, and Eleanor on the podcast.

[00:42:49] Sally Ponzio:  I've really learned over time with this song and, and other experiences. You know, When you put something to music and people can sing it, it's healing.

[00:42:59] Angela Kennecke: You can hear more of their song. Remember Me at the end of this podcast, but we also don't wanna forget that one of the most important things we're working on at Emily's Hope is prevention, so that children never start experimenting with drugs in the first place. One of the ways we're doing that is by educating students, by developing a prevention education curriculum for students. In grades K through 12,

[00:43:25] Jessica Lahey: The best preventions are talk early and talk often. I swear to parents, I promise, the more you talk about this stuff, the easier it gets.

It's sort of like, you know, Peggy Ornstein, who wrote the wonderful books, boys and Sex and Girls and Sex, we joke all the time that, you know, when it, when it comes to difficult conversations, actually the more often you have them, the easier they've become. Um, it's something we talk about a lot. In our home.

 But early talk talk often, uh, listen to your kids, don't talk from a place of judgment. And then on top of that, there are things like early intervention. We know some of the other risk factors, uh, separate from genetics and trauma. Adverse childhood experiences are, um, academic failure is a really big one.

And so getting there early intervening, early undiagnosed learning issues. There were always kids in my classroom with undiagnosed or barely treated, uh, learning issues. Uh, social ostracism is a big risk factor for kids, and you can see how these things can become intertwined really easily. Um, when a child is aggressive towards other children.

We need to deal with that at a very early age because that is a big risk factor. , physical and sexual abuse is a huge risk factor. It's one of the biggest risk factors for kids. And so we need to believe kids when they tell us that they're, you know, if they're, um, being made uncomfortable by someone else's, um, behavior.

So there are all sorts of, and then there are risk, uh, periods as well. You know, for example, transitions for kids. The transition between middle and high school is a big, uh, risky time for kids. So understanding what those risk factors are. Having a very clear eye about them not getting freaked out and defensive and, you know, feeling guilty or shame and then moving forward from a place of, okay, so let's, we know this is a risk factor, let's deal with it.

[00:45:07] Angela Kennecke: we talk with Jessica Lehe on a recent podcast. She's a mother and teacher and New York Times bestselling author, Jessica, who has been sober for eight years after battling alcohol addiction, also wrote a new book about protecting children from substance use disorder.

[00:45:30] Jessica Lahey: We're talking about adolescent brains here. We're not talking about adult brains, we're talking about brains that are not done developing until, you know, the early twenties and all of.

Things, when you think about the stuff about your teenager that really tends to piss you off. Like, you know, not being able to remember stuff or not being able to, you know, hold three things in their head at the same time, or blowing off deadlines or, you know, that sort of stuff. That's all the stuff that's developing during adolescence.

And if we want our kids to get to their early twenties with their brains intact, this is really important that we delay, delay, delay with substances because substances that can. Low to moderate risk and an adult brain can be moderate to high risk in an in an adolescent brain. And then the last bit of this is the longer we delay a kid's use, the lower their lifelong risk risk for developing substance use disorder becomes.

So there's all kinds of reasons that Delay, delay, delay is the name of the game

MUSIC UP!

[00:46:30] Angela Kennecke: While more people are becoming aware of the drug crisis in our country, there's so much more work that needs to be done. Last year we saw another record year of overdose deaths, about 80% of those from fentanyl. Unfortunately, I don't have to look far to see the devastation. on one of my podcasts, I told you about how even after Emily's death, some of her friends didn't heed the warning and get help for their substance use disorder.

MUSIC UP!

But I'm also taking this very personally because two of Emily's friends, the group that she hung out, And did drugs with and people that she's known since she was in high school. Two of them overdosed as well in the last couple of weeks. Now both of them basically died, but were brought back by two doses of Narcan, so those kids are alive.

One is a guy, he's 22 years old, and one is a girl and she's 22 as well. and I had heard their names. Emily had mentioned their names quite a bit. The first one, I'll just call Jake. I had heard about Jake and in fact some of Emily's friends had left a birthday card, her niche, where her ashes are held, and I saw that Jake had signed it and the other friend all called Katie and I'd heard Katie's name mentioned over and over and over again, and she also overdosed as well, just this last week.

And I think I start taking it really personally because. I would hope that the friends of Emily's who know that she died would somehow have cleaned up their act right, gotten treatment, gotten better, and stayed away from this, but they haven't been able to, and it makes me so sad. 

MUSIC UP!

It also saddens me to hear from other parents whose children have either died or are struggling with substance use disorder. But I honestly believe by speaking out, we can stop the stigma and raise more awareness about this Very critical. . And that brings me back to my very first podcast where I shared a poem I had written after Emily's death.

It is named Incomplete Heart. While my heart will always be Incomplete, the guests on this podcast have helped me reshape it and find a new sense of purpose. And for that, I'm incredibly.

MUSIC UP!

I am here she is. Yet I must stay and figure out how to put her away when she's always been right here at the forefront of my mind. Worry, worry, fear worst. Fear now materialized. Somehow I breathe in and out, in and out. I breathe about her.

I was there for her first breath, but not her last. My work. Unfinished services no longer. My heart and pieces on the floor. One piece missing forevermore. Learning to live with an incomplete heart. 

MUSIC UP!

And that wraps up our hundredth episode of Grieving Out Loud. I wanna thank all of my loyal listeners for helping make this podcast among the most listened to on the topic of fentanyl poisoning grief and addiction. We have many great episodes coming up, including next week, where I interview the founder of Shatterproof, Gary Mendel, and he opens up about the struggles with his son that led him to his life mission of ending the stigma of addiction.

Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage.

I started writing the words that you were saying.

Napkin in my car. I had to pull over. I'll never get over.

Now that you.

You said

Broken heart, let.

When you were born, I held you in my

become ambulance.

Gone for years before you went away. I tried so hard to reach you. You couldn't stay. These leather seats hold me earth.

His name is name. Her face is your face. My tears all these years cannot be replaced. But this song is our.

Me

thank you for joining me for this latest edition of Grieving Out Loud. If you're enjoying the podcast, please consider giving a positive. Wishing you faith, hope, and courage.

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