[00:00:00] Honesty Liller: (MUSIC UP) 

So many things that were going through my mind and body as a child, I just wanted to get rid of.

[00:00:06] Angela Kennecke: Honesty Liller started experimenting with drugs at age 12, nearly died from a heroin overdose at 17, and gave birth to her daughter at 21 while on heroin. 

[00:00:21] Honesty Liller: They mandated me to that methadone clinic, and I just did a ton of drugs.

I brought in fake urine just to keep my daughter, but I couldn't even be the mom that she deserved.

[00:00:32] Angela Kennecke: How Honesty was finally able to break the cycle and become a "hope dealer" for others battling substance use disorders in this week's episode of Grieving Out Loud.

 (music bridge-) 

[00:00:46] Angela Kennecke: I'm Angela Kennecke, the host of Grieving Out Loud, and founder of Emily's Hope, a charity I started in my daughter's name after she died of fentanyl poisoning. Our goal is to stop the stigma and get people into treatment so others don't have to experience this kind of grief.

 Honesty, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. I am so excited to meet you. 

[00:01:10] Honesty Liller: Thanks. Thank you for having me. I'm super excited. I read your website and everything and my heart goes out to you and your mission for sure. 

[00:01:18] Angela Kennecke: I'm making a huge shift. I actually am doing this full-time now, running Emily's Hope and trying to save as many lives as possible through awareness and prevention and getting people into treatment.

 know you've been in this field for a while, since you've been in recovery, so maybe you have some good advice for me. 

[00:01:37] Honesty Liller: Oh, yeah. Just keep going. is really the biggest advice. Anyone in this field. It's hard. It's, it's definitely blood, sweat, and tears. Remember your mission, like always remember why you're doing what you do and why you love what you do, especially on the days when you want to give up.

[00:01:54] Angela Kennecke: Yeah, I know. No matter what you do, you're always going to encounter roadblocks, obstacles, things like that . So thank you though. That's great advice. I wanted to start by talking a little bit about your story. Starting drugs at the age of 12. Can you tell me how that happened or why that 

[00:02:11] Honesty Liller: happened?

Sure. I mean, , honestly looking back, I just wanted to fit in with the people that I was hanging out with. My first drug was actually weed. It wasn't even alcohol. And I just was this super hippy chick. I went to fish shows and did a lot of things that 12, 13 year olds do not do normally.

 I didn't really have that great of a home life at the time, so I really just was escaping and everybody else around me was doing it. So I thought I would just start. It was cool in the beginning. I thought it was cool before I found heroin. I thought it was fun and interesting and I met cool people and I did whatever I wanted to do.

So, a rebellious teenager, kind of doing whatever. 

When you were 

[00:02:54] Angela Kennecke: 12, were you hanging out with older kids? Is that who introduced you to weed? 

[00:02:58] Honesty Liller: So my best friend was my age. Her sister was doing it. And people that they hung out with were a little bit older, yes. Mm-hmm. . Yep. 

[00:03:06] Angela Kennecke: And you're not the only opioid addict I've spoken to who started with weed.

Almost everyone I know who suffers from opioid use disorder started with weed. Do you see that as well? 

[00:03:20] Honesty Liller: Oh yeah. For the most part, normally I don't meet too many humans that say that their first drug was heroin. So it's usually something when you're a child or even an adult that you kind of test first .

[00:03:32] Angela Kennecke: In fact, research shows that the vast majority of high school students who use other drugs started with marijuana. Still, there are many teens who don't experiment any further. Why is that? The National Institute for Drug Abuse has three theories. First, when those in their early twenties and younger use weed, it can change their reward system in their developing brain.

Secondly, if a kid is at high risk for substance use disorder, it is often easier to get ahold of weed than other drugs. Lastly, those who use marijuana are more likely to be around others using all sorts of drugs, and that can increase their risk of further experimentation.

[00:04:15] Honesty Liller: When I first started using it was really just weed and alcohol. Oh, and a lot of LSD. Yeah. Oh, really? . Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:04:23] Angela Kennecke: So what made you start heroin?

 I think for many of us, that seems like a really scary drug. I was always shocked that my daughter was doing heroin because I just never would have guessed that. I thought it was weed and 

[00:04:34] Honesty Liller: Xanax, you know?

Right. Well, for me, honestly, I was doing cocaine at the time I was 17. I remember the first time I used heroin, I had a blunt with weed in it, with crack. So we call it back then a jum. So in order for me to come down so I wouldn't be paranoid and stuff off of the crack. My friend was like, just do.

, and handed me a dollar bill and I sniffed the heroin that day. It was introduced to me before age 17. I had already had a friend overdose and die. I just refused to do it because my friend had already passed away. I fell in love the first day I did it, and it was really just to try to come off of the cocaine and something happened in my brain.

My opiate receptors went off, had a huge party up there and I fell in love immediately and I never did another upper again. You 

[00:05:25] Angela Kennecke: had this opportunity though because you were already on another substance, and you were told, "Use this to bring me down". What was that like for you?

[00:05:34] Honesty Liller: From what I remember, just, it was like a hundred years ago and I was on drugs. But from what I remember, I remember just feeling numb, like just using it, laying there, just not having a care in the world and feeling my pain go away as far as so many things that were going through my mind and body as a child that I just wanted to get rid of.

And heroin helped me do that. 

[00:05:59] Angela Kennecke: I recently sat down with the former Deputy Drug Czar for the United States Art Kleinschmidt, who is both a licensed clinician and in long-term recovery from substance use disorder. 

Did you find any common core themes in yourself and in your patients, are there principles or core things that they share that you all share? Share? 

[00:06:20] Art Kleinschmidt: Yeah, that's a good question. yes. I think sometimes, like when you look at sort of the government, they put too much emphasis on drug of choice. and in reality, somebody who's using used 10 different substances, what they're really relating to is their feelings.

The emotionality of it. you look at it sometimes, I think shame is one of the biggest ones. And, but shame isn't just low self-esteem. It's more of a belief that I'm sort of defective, there's something wrong with me. And if I could just anesthetize that feeling, then that could go away

[00:06:47] Angela Kennecke: Honesty, loved not being able to feel for several months.

[00:06:53] Honesty Liller: But then I overdosed when I was 17. That is when my family got involved.

 I hid drug use for five years though, which is really scary because I have a 13 year old son right now. But I was really good at it. Like with the name, like honesty. I lied from childhood and it's all in my book, but it from my childhood to, especially my addiction as well, it was, it was a tough, tough name to live.

Right. You wrote a 

[00:07:18] Angela Kennecke: book, it's called Scattered Pink. Mm-hmm. , about all of your experiences. Tell me a little bit more about when your family found out you overdosed. 

[00:07:28] Honesty Liller: So when I overdosed, I was in a house with a bunch of felons on papers.

No one wanted to call the ambulance or the police and drugs roll in the house. But I had a guardian angel. I truly believe in guardian angels. So they took me to the hospital after they brought me back to life with Narcan. And that's when you know you're underage.

My parents, my sisters my sister just lost someone really close to her for my overdose the week before, and my sisters didn't do drugs or anything like that. It was just me. So I remember the pain of that. Like I remember that feeling. I'm in the, sitting in the stretcher at the hospital throwing up and, you know, everything that you do when you're going through immediate withdrawal like that.

And that's when back then they, it was few, very few treatments for an opiate use disorder. It wasn't even called an opiate use disorder. I'm sure it was. You were a heroin addict, and I don't even use the word addict personally more, but back then, that's what you were called. So I got these shots in my butt with buprenorphine just to detox me and then just a prayer and a hope for my family that I would never use again. I went to my first 12 step meeting when I was 17. I went to like two, and I did not like it. I was young and hardheaded, and I didn't want to be around a bunch of old people to be frank with you. So that didn't work for me. And then just the people that I was hanging out with, I didn't get rid of them.

So once my detox was over, I started smoking weed immediately within a week and drinking, and then doing heroin. 

[00:08:59] Angela Kennecke: I am shocked that Narcan was even available. This would've been before 2007, right? 

[00:09:05] Honesty Liller: Yes, yes, it was. I was 17, so 1997, it was the intravenous kind., , they put the IV in my arm so they didn't have all the cool stuff that they have now.

Wow. And 

[00:09:19] Angela Kennecke: it is amazing that you lived then and to be able to get that during that time, it's actually really, truly amazing you're here.. 

[00:09:27] Honesty Liller: Oh yeah. I truly believe that God and Guardian angels and spirit and stuff . It was 14 years of using drugs. The last nine was heroin and other opiates to get me where I am today.

I'm a hope dealer. I can help. You know, specifically Hope Dealer. 

[00:09:40] Angela Kennecke: I want to emphasize that Hope Dealer. Yeah. 

[00:09:43] Honesty Liller: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:43] Angela Kennecke: So you. Go back to using, you're 17 years old. How much 

[00:09:47] Honesty Liller: longer did you use? Nine years. Nine long years. Yep.

Until I was 26 .. And in between there was, gosh, God bless my parents. I mean, they tried. I did Jesus, I got baptized, I did 12 step, I did more medication, assistant treatment. I did a 28 day program. I did all of that. I put my body, mind, spirit, my family through a lot. And then I had my daughter in active addiction. I was 21 and she was born in withdrawal from heroin, cuz I used basically my whole pregnancy. 

Oh 

[00:10:21] Angela Kennecke: my goodness. And how old is she now?

[00:10:24] Honesty Liller: Your daughter? 20. She's 20. She's works at a local hospital and is in nursing school. So she wants to help in her own way. She's already called. Me and you know, there's people here, addicted to heroin, can I send them to McShin? So it's really cool to see the circle cuz I did put her through a lot.

That was the hardest situation I guess I got through in my personal recovery journey because.

 I am not a kind person when I'm in withdrawal, I will hurt you or hurt someone else or hurt myself. I just don't do well at all with, with dope sick. So yeah, I mean, she wasn't taken from me. They mandated me to that methadone clinic, and I just did a ton of drugs.

 I brought in fake urine just to keep my daughter. But I couldn't even be the mom that she deserved. I just wanted her not to go into the system. I don't know what I wanted cuz I didn't know how to be a mom.

I was still a baby myself. And I just wasn't, taught a lot of those skills growing up either. So it, it was a lot of trauma for her. But we've worked through all of that. I mean, I think we have, so we're good now. I, 

I have a couple of 

[00:11:30] Angela Kennecke: questions. So first of all did she have any lasting effects from being born addicted to heroin?

[00:11:37] Honesty Liller: No. She was in no 

[00:11:38] Angela Kennecke: learning issues. No emotional or psychological or addiction issues herself? 

[00:11:43] Honesty Liller: Not I mean, she's had some drinking, , typical teenage, I had a party, breathalizer stuff. But no, no, we've been very blessed. I mean, she's had her, you know, women problems, girl problems, stuff like that.

No, no long term effects. She was in the hospital for two weeks. She got detoxed there. Oh my gosh. Those nurses hated me. I remember all that. And not that as of right now, we've been pretty blessed on, the young lady that she's turned out to be, because, I turned my life around when she was five.

So she's been raised here at McShin. She's been raised all surrounded by recovery. My husband's in long term recovery and basically adopted her when she was young. 

[00:12:25] Angela Kennecke: So you got into long-term recovery when she was five and she's 20 now. Mm-hmm. . So it's been 15 years.

What did it finally take and what do you think your low points were before you got to the bottom? I just think you were so lucky that Fentanyl wasn't in everything the way it is now back then 15 years ago. What did it take? 

[00:12:48] Honesty Liller: So I came to McShin with nothing but two bags of clothes. I was evicted from my apartment. My mom had my daughter. I didn't have anything. I had a boyfriend at the time that's now my husband. But I don't know. I tell people it was that peer to peer connection, like moving into McShin, a female recovery home with nothing.

John took me in the co-founder and they taught me immediately how to work for a living, how to be drug and alcohol free, how to love myself, and we're a herd. 

So it's really that hope dealing that that herd environment, those other humans like you, that just trying to get their life together. 

really feeling the love no matter how I felt in my mind. 

 My thoughts were still completely insane, even though I wasn't shooting heroin anymore and not being judged or feeling judged, and being able to get it all out and have people talk with you all night or walk around the block with you. 

[00:13:41] Angela Kennecke: It's not just Honesty who benefited from friends going through recovery. Kleinschmidt says that community feeling is key to fighting addiction.

 ( I THINK YOU COULD KEEP THE MUSIC ON LOW FOR ART'S ENTIRE SOUNDBITE AND THROUGH ANGELA'S NEXT LINE.) 

[00:13:53] Art Kleinschmidt: The number one thing was with me. It was almost like having the other people sort of around . I kind of stayed connected to the community 

 (KEEP MUSIC ON LOW THROUGH THIS! ) 

[00:13:59] Angela Kennecke: In fact, honesty never left that community environment. After being a patient at Mc Shin Foundation, she became a certified peer recovery specialist helping others battling substance use disorder. She's now the C E O at the Long-term Recovery Center.

[00:14:18] Honesty Liller: Seeing other people get their children back. For me specifically, you know, being moms teaching me how to be a mom, but now, I get to do that with the other ladies, that come through our organization, along with my staff.

And it's just we're family here. We all make sure, everybody's sustainable, whatever their pathway is, which has really evolved the past five years here at McShin. Back 15 years ago, we had three houses. Only one of those was female. No female staff. It was three male staff. We've grown, evolved. We have 15 houses and a ton of programming and jail programs and stuff like that. 

[00:14:54] Angela Kennecke: Well, that's great that you've grown so much and you're doing so much because don't you think the need is greater than ever?

[00:15:00] Honesty Liller: Oh, yes. Oh my gosh. I can't even tell you again. I feel I am an old timer, so I've been doing this a very long time, and us being able to grow to 15 houses for those houses we've had to open since Covid, the disease of addiction didn't stop just because the Covid started. It actually got like 10 million times worse. The need is huge.

We're always full. I mean, 98% full at least. So it's a lot. We have 152 beds between 15 houses that are all VAR certified houses as well. 

[00:15:32] Angela Kennecke: What do you think is the most effective treatment to get into recovery? 

[00:15:38] Honesty Liller: Well, from my own experience, I did a detox. I didn't do MAT this last time. I did it for two years prior, but I was using every other drug.

That's my experience, and that's in the book too, but, Is the peer to peer connection. You have to have a recovery coach plan. You have to have some quality of life attached to that medication or to that pathway. Not just, go to a meeting. Sure, that's fine.

But go there with a purpose. Like, what are you gonna get out of that meeting if at all possible? Everyone's process is different timelines. So I'm not here to say, you're gonna get cured in 60 days.

 So how 

[00:16:16] Angela Kennecke: long does the average person stay 

[00:16:18] Honesty Liller: in one of your houses? Between four and six 

[00:16:20] Angela Kennecke: months. Oh, that's great. Yeah, it's great that they're able to get that kind of time in.

[00:16:25] Honesty Liller: So why did you write the book? Oh, gosh. So about, I don't know, a few years ago I was just kind of like going through some stuff. I've been at McShin since my first day of recovery. I've been with the same man since my first day of recovery, like it was just like this, I guess I call it an unspiritual awakening.

I was just like, I want to do something else. You know, I don't know what I want to do. So then I just started following specifically women writers, not just about addiction. God put a ton of people in my life that, that path, like I kept meeting the same editor at this networking group I do.

And I'm like, you know, these are signs, these are slaps in the face to just do it. So, You know, ripped the bandaid off, started making calls, figuring out the editing process. It's a super quick read. It's very powerful, traumatic, funny. If you know me, you can hear my voice for sure. And then it just gives hope. 

[00:17:19] Angela Kennecke: You did it. That's awesome. I know I wrote a book a few years ago as a journalist.

It's something I always wanted to do, and I finally had the opportunity. Now I plan to write probably a couple more books about my experience and something to help parents. There's so many of us now, and I'm sure you see that all the time. I'm sure you lose clients, and you see people deal with loss in that way.

[00:17:42] Honesty Liller: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And that's the worst. There's nothing worse in this whole thing than having a loved one on the other end, crying and screaming because they've lost their, their child or, or parents or whatever.

And I wish that would stop. And we do a very good job here at McShin to try and to stop that. . But that is the stuff that really crushes me and I, and that's when we implement like self care here at McShin and Wellness days and fun activities for our staff because it's a heavy job.

Yes. 

[00:18:13] Angela Kennecke: Very heavy because you can't save everybody. Mm-hmm. . Well I'm sure you're saving a lot of people there though. That's sounds like your program is amazing. 

[00:18:21] Honesty Liller: Yeah, it is thousands upon thousands, tens have been here since they started in 2004. We get an average of 500 people a year just living in our houses.

If you think about the family members that are affected with just that one human it goes into the tens and hundreds of thousands throughout all of these years. So, and we have a grief program here. We have a family program and then again, we're in three local jails. And you know, we're just here trying to do the best that we can to help, the people that come through.

Well, 

[00:18:53] Angela Kennecke: thank you for all of the work you're doing in this area. Thank you for sharing your story in your book also on this podcast. Really appreciate your willingness to do that and Sure. All I have to say is keep up the good work, 

[00:19:04] Honesty Liller: Honesty. Thank you. And thank you for all you do. Your website is gorgeous by the way.

I just wanted to throw out that to you too. Oh. And anything that you ever need or anything pops in, let me know how we can support you as well. Yeah. We're all 

[00:19:16] Angela Kennecke: in this together. It takes so many of us. It's going to take so many of us to turn this ship around, especially with all the fentanyl poisoning deaths, you know?

Yeah. I just think that we all have to be doing our part, so thank you. 

[00:19:29] Honesty Liller: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

 (MUSIC UP!) 

[00:19:32] Angela Kennecke: You can get more information on Honesty's book and listen to more episodes of Grieving Out Loud, as well as read my blog on Emily's Hope charity. If you enjoy what you're hearing, please consider giving us a positive review. Thank you for listening. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage.