[00:00:00] Mark VandeBraak: we need to have the tools to do something with the grief. one death affects a minimum of 128 people. 

[00:00:08] Angela Kennecke: I first met Dr. Mark VandeBraak shortly after my daughter Emily died. He sat down with my entire family to help us reframe our loss, and I found what he had to say to be very helpful and compassionate. Mark is a thanatologist, a fancy way of saying grief educator. He spoke to me on Episode 10, Broken Heart Syndrome: Four Ways We Grieve. He's back on the podcast for this episode to talk about coping with loss over the holiday season when our grief comes into sharp focus, as we intensely miss the ones who are no longer with us to celebrate all of our family traditions. 

[00:00:50] Mark VandeBraak: I've suggested for people to set a plate for that loved one at the dinner table. Why don't you hang the stocking? 

[00:00:58] Angela Kennecke: Music 

Well, mark, it is a pleasure to have you back on the podcast again. Thank you so much. Episode number 10, Broken Heart Syndrome has had among the most listens, I think, because anybody who has lost someone can relate and can get some good advice from what you said. 

[00:01:14] Mark VandeBraak: Sure, and I'm, I'm honored to be back, so thank you for having me.

[00:01:18] Angela Kennecke: It seems like this time of year can be a joyous time, but it also can be a very painful time for so many people. 

[00:01:26] Mark VandeBraak: Absolutely, and one I have found, I've been fortunate to do this work for about 30 some years, and I know the buildup for the holiday is the anxiety, the commercials, all these sort of things come into play.

But what I have found, honestly, is the actual day. Isn't as bad as the buildup, and I found it in a very simple way that if you provide structure for the day, if you know on the death date or if you know on the birthday or Christmas, for example, strategic planning ahead, what time are you gonna get up?

What time are you gonna have breakfast? Spend some time. I say being with your loved one, talking to your loved one, and for like for you with Emily, I would say spend half hour, 45 minutes engaging in conversation. It sounds really abstract and weird, but if you really think about it, we miss them physically being here.

But we miss hearing their voice. We miss hearing what they say. And if you really, and what I always advocate, if you really trust your heart, you know what they would be telling you. 

We've just gotta pay attention to it. Cuz our brain complicates everything. Our brain distorts the truth. It distorts everything, but our heart always remains pure.

[00:02:47] Angela Kennecke: I love that. I think you're correct. All those things that come from the heart. The brain likes to rationalize away, 

[00:02:54] Mark VandeBraak: right? What does our society tend to tell you to do? Get over it. Move on. Why are you still grieving? And I hope and pray you've never heard that, but general people will say, Angela, what's wrong with you? Get over it. Move on in your life. 

[00:03:09] Angela Kennecke: I think people may not always say that to your face, but they'll definitely say it to other people if they see that you continue to talk about this, you continue.

[00:03:18] Mark VandeBraak: Yeah. You're fixated on it. What I would challenge that belief by saying, Because you love is why you feel this way. I mean, if you didn't care, you wouldn't be feeling it. So the misnomer about grief is that you will always grieve Emily. You will always grieve your loved one who says you shouldn't. Cuz our quick fix society, our culture is extremely poor at understanding grief.

Other cultures around the world do a far better job. For example, if a, a spouse dies, if a woman loses her husband, she used to wear a certain color for a year. And every time somebody sees her, she's treated with respect and honor. 

[00:03:56] Angela Kennecke: Kindness, 

[00:03:57] Mark VandeBraak: kindness, gentleness here. How do you know?

What's the descriptor? We're supposed to be back to work in three days, right? You're supposed to get over it. I use, Dr. Ken Doka as a colleague of mine. he developed the term disenfranchised grief. And a sidebar of that is if you have a pet that you've had for 15 years, a dog, a cat, and that animal dies, how often do you talk about that pet?

How often do you go to work and say, no, I lost my pet? Well, the first day probably is an okay thing, but if you do it a second day, then people are going, well, what's wrong with you? And heaven forbid you do it for a third day or at the end of the week, you're still talking about your dog that I, you know what they'll tell you, go get another one.

And I've worked with so many people over life. I worked with a, a woman that lost her child four hours old, and she was told, well, you know what? Go have another one that'll take care of it. It's, we don't, we have this quick replacement And it's like, my goodness, we don't function that way. That's our head saying, you know what? We'll, we'll try to rationalize. We'll try to justify it. Well then hence forth. Look at the addiction world. Look at what it does. Well, you look at the signs, the billboards around. Had a tough day. Have a beer. 

 if it's not acceptable to feel your feelings, if it's not acceptable to talk about them, then you look for ways to cope that are unhealthy, not at all to get rid of it. 

[00:05:25] Mark VandeBraak: So I, I developed in, the strategy, the Berafian Model is something that I developed a number of years ago, and the word berafian is an old English word back in the 310

and it means to rob. To be taken away from. And as time advanced, the word changed, devolved into the word bereavement. But in all my years of doing this work, I have found no better definition. We feel robbed and we want that person back. 

[00:05:52] Angela Kennecke: And I think that especially comes into focus over the holidays. No matter how long ago you lost a loved one.

I know. for me, Christmas was Emily's favorite holiday, and she was my kid who loved every tradition. We had to do every tradition the same way every year. She was always so excited about it. She was my adult kid that came back to make the fudge with me, and she was always there every Christmas. I mean, every holiday she was like that.

She loved every holiday, but especially Christmas. She had Christmas socks. I have actually a Christmas blanket. My grief counselor, who also did quilting, made out of her Christmas blankets and socks, and she had Christmas everything. Christmas pajamas. And sometimes I'll just wrap myself up in that Christmas blanket.

[00:06:38] Mark VandeBraak: Why not? 

[00:06:38] Angela Kennecke: Yeah. And I, I feel closer to my daughter at that time. 

[00:06:41] Mark VandeBraak: Well, and I, there's so many different traditions you think about, realistically, your traditions that you do at holidays are gonna be jade. For a while, and it doesn't mean that you go back to doing this the same way, or maybe those traditions change over time.

But I've had people, I've suggested for people to set a plate for that loved one at the dinner table. Why don't you hang the stocking? Why don't you buy, for example, why don't you buy Emily a gift who says you shouldn't? Then when you, when Christmas is over and this gift is still there, it's very touching, but maybe that's something you could donate somewhere.

So having, maybe it's a strategic planning with your family, maybe it's talking with your kids, going, okay, let's do something different this year. Maybe we don't have to be here. Maybe we can go somewhere else. 

[00:07:31] Angela Kennecke: First year after her death, I knew I couldn't be in our house. I just knew I couldn't be there. I wouldn't be able to get out of bed function around the rest of my family.

[00:07:40] Mark VandeBraak: Sure. 

[00:07:40] Angela Kennecke: Which I didn't think was fair to them. So we actually, we went out of town and we did something that Emily loved to do. We went skiing. And that. Great to not be home, but it was also hard to be skiing and to be thinking that she would've loved to have been skiing with us. 

[00:07:53] Mark VandeBraak: and that's, it's kind of breaking that mold or tradition, but it's trying to help you understand, listen to your heart.

What does your heart tell you? Because you can run anywhere and it's still that grief is there. 

[00:08:05] Angela Kennecke: I wrote a blog called Grief is My Constant Companion, and this was after, summer vacation that we went on. I'm at a beautiful beach and I'm walking around feeling grief, saddened cuz thinking of my daughter.

Right? so it didn't matter where I went. 

[00:08:18] Mark VandeBraak: Sure. 

 It's there. And that's like for anyone, again, our society again, I, I really am a supporter of getting the understanding in education because we need to have the tools to do something with the grief. If you look at it on our history, one death affects a minimum of 128 people.

[00:08:38] Mark VandeBraak: That's just the bare minimum. On average, statistically, there are 6,500 people that die every day in the United States. With Covid, you add about 2300 extra every day. So if you look at the numbers in the multiplication, over 30 million people every year, one 10th of our population is impacted by a death.

You can't tell me that doesn't impact how we treat each other, how we look at each other, how, you know, selfish. Sometimes we get, and we've gotta find, find different ways to honor them, to keep them a part of our story, not separated from, and that's what I've always advocated. 

[00:09:16] Angela Kennecke: Many people could be depressed over the holidays anyway.

And then if you add grief on top of that, I think it can be a very tough time. I think suicides go up this time of year. The weather's colder, and then you're supposed to be happy. Society wants you to be joyful and celebrating holidays. You may not feel 

that way.

[00:09:36] Mark VandeBraak: You don't feel it. So acknowledge it. It's okay. And I would suggest being present with that loved one that died. And that's when I say that, that's where I've always pushed people to have conversations with their loved ones that's died. And it's a very weird technique, but what I do is I challenge people to literally write, have a written conversation with them.

[00:10:00] Angela Kennecke: Tell me what you mean by that. 

[00:10:00] Mark VandeBraak: Well, I would say, for example, for you, you'd start out 'Hey Emily, met this crazy doctor wants me to talk to you. So here it goes. You start talking about what's going on in the day. Talk about her siblings, Catch her up to speed with what's going on with work, with what you're doing, those types of things.

Cause you think of it logically, we miss them here, but inevitably we miss them talking. We miss having those conversations and I'm saying if you trust your heart, Those memories, those legacies will still always be there. And that's, you know, the beautiful thing with Emily's hope is that you carry on Emily's tradition.

And what I've emphasized always is never focus on their death, focus on their life because their life is what has meaning. We have the birth date and then we have the death date. But what's the most important is the middle part, and that's the dash. That's the life that they lived, who they are. And that's a cognitive thing in some ways of saying, well, you know, They're more than their death is really what it boils down to.

[00:11:05] Angela Kennecke: Yes, definitely. And definitely more than how they died. While we're trying to help people and Emily's name not suffer the same kind of fate. I always worry, and I always say this when I talk to groups that I worry about, she's only gonna to be remembered f or how she died. Right? Because it was in such a stigmatized 

way.

[00:11:23] Mark VandeBraak: But that's then that's your emphasis. That's her siblings, her, everyone that was loved, Emily. The, the hope and the, the job then is to keep her a part of your story to put her on display. So display in your heart, cuz no matter where you go, she can be a part of your journey. 

[00:11:41] Angela Kennecke: Why is writing the conversation so important?

[00:11:44] Mark VandeBraak: There is something that is amazing that happens when you can take and you have a written conversation with your loved one, and what I say is set it down. Go get a cup of coffee or some juice or something, then come back and read it to yourself. When you read it, it actually becomes a filter and you get to determine what is it that I'm going to put in my heart and what is it that I don't need to hold onto anymore? There's something in our, our brain scans and our functioning that says, you know what? That's really not important. If I, if you wanna focus on her death, go right ahead. But if you say, you know what? I remember when she was in the dance rectal and she did that great dance.

Or when she drew that piece of artist, my favorite piece. Those positives start to outweigh all the negative images that have in our brain. 

[00:12:34] Angela Kennecke: Do people ever tell you when they write something to their loved one, that the loved one responds through their own writing? 

in some ways, yeah. I, I try to filter it even more saying, trust your heart.

[00:12:46] Mark VandeBraak: And what would they say? Like if Emily was sitting right here, right now, what would she be telling? Mom, I love you. I'm proud of you.

You know, if you listen. Mm-hmm. , 

[00:12:54] Angela Kennecke: I do hear her voice in my own head sometimes, or I talk to her maybe, and she's, oh mom, you know? Yeah

[00:13:01] Mark VandeBraak: but do you see what just happened with you? You're smiling because you were remembering the positives. It's so easy to get lost in all the negative imagery.

[00:13:11] Angela Kennecke: Right? 

[00:13:11] Mark VandeBraak: It's so easy. 

[00:13:12] Angela Kennecke: What went wrong? 

[00:13:13] Mark VandeBraak: Yeah. What I coulda should, or would've done if I should've, if I would've done this, if 

[00:13:18] Angela Kennecke: I think all parents who've lost a child do that. 

[00:13:20] Mark VandeBraak: Yeah. But ask yourself, how is that helping you? If you're that powerful and it could have controlled it, then you would've, right? Guilt is a word that should have never, ever been invented.

[00:13:29] Angela Kennecke: And I always say, . When I talk to other parents, and I talk to a lot of other parents on this podcast who've lost children in a similar way, that if really it was our fault, if we had done something wrong, we wouldn't be so worried that it was our fault or had we done something wrong.

Right, because we wouldn't even care. 

[00:13:48] Mark VandeBraak: No, you were, you were doing the best you could, you know? And then you know this, and I know this, it's not easy being a parent and you're trying to do the best that you can. And it's not an excuse, but honestly, if you could have changed something, you would've, of course. But the other part of that is how you gotta always challenge yourself.

How is that helping me? You've gotta ask yourself, how is this helping me? Cause if you can say, it's not helping me, then you gotta stop it. 

[00:14:13] Angela Kennecke: And also if the situation were reversed and I was the one who had died, And Emily was still here. I would never, ever want my daughter to feel guilty or to think she had done something wrong or something to cause 

it.

[00:14:28] Mark VandeBraak: And what, what we do is, again, I use the concept of when we put a picture of them in our heart. And so what you're doing is developing the frame to go around that picture.

Cause when you have that frame completed with the memories, the gifts they gave in your life, they're never separated from you. They're always a part of your story. 

[00:14:48] Angela Kennecke: One thing I was talking to an audience about recently was we always think we're gonna remember how someone smelled, what their hug felt like or what their voice sounded like.

And I'll have a video where Emily is talking. I don't have a lot of videos where she's talking, just kinda that we didn't have smartphones as much. She was younger and all of that. And I find it interesting that the brain really can't retain. Those kinds of memories. We can't really remember.

[00:15:16] Mark VandeBraak: What you remember is I, I look at that's part of that filtration process.

What are the, the images, the things that I'm going to keep? When I work with trauma, when I work with situations like that, the image of the negativity of car accident or any of those things and some might say, well, that's posttraumatic stress disorder. That's, you know, PTSD kind of thing.

And you know, I, people have heard me challenge that. I don't necessarily believe in that kind of terminology because what you saw was grief. And if we put a label on it, then. We get reimbursement, right? And we can go see people for years upon years. But what if you actually dealt with the junk? What if you actually dealt into the, the processing of grief?

Cause for me, I'm very biased. I, I openly admit it. Grief is the hardest work you'll ever do in your life. 

[00:16:07] Angela Kennecke: And most of us end up having to do it 

[00:16:09] Mark VandeBraak: right and multiple times. . But when you can get control, when you feel like you can control the grief, then it doesn't control you.

[00:16:19] Angela Kennecke: Can you control grief? 

[00:16:20] Mark VandeBraak: Yeah, you can, because you can create the, the processing that goes on here. You get to control the picture you put on display. I use that analogy a lot, the animal analogy that I developed and, there are three animals that help me teach about grief, and the first is a turtle.

 There's many types of turtles painted mud snapper. Then there's a cousin, the tortoise and tortoises can live over 200 years. Quite amazing if you think about it. But they're very sacred in the Chinese culture and the native culture. They're sacred because they're always in touch with the earth, always feeling.

And because of that, they live a long time and because they live a long time, they become wise. And with that wisdom comes wealth. But when storms come, what do turtles usually do? 

[00:17:05] Angela Kennecke: Hide their heads. 

[00:17:06] Mark VandeBraak: Yeah. Yeah. They pull into their shell, right? Mm-hmm. generally, well, how does that relate to humans dealing with grief?

[00:17:11] Angela Kennecke: A lot of people retreat into themselves. 

[00:17:14] Mark VandeBraak: Yeah, I have to deal with this on my own. I work with this with miscarriages. I'm the only one that experiences, or I'm the only one that did this. It's so not true. But that process that's in our mind, we gotta suck it up and deal with it. Then it causes the physiological damage that causes the cognitive damage, the spiritual damage, and emotional.

It goes hand in hand. So I would challenge people to really think, are you being like a turtle? Because if you're holding it all in, I can promise you it's never gonna go away. The second animal that helps me teach is the wombly or the bald eagle. Beautiful bird flies the highest of all birds. You can see it's prey from far away.

Gigantic nest. They mate for life and they're very sacred in the indigenous native culture because they are considered to be messengers. They carry the prayers of our humanness up to the creator, and once a prayer is delivered, oftentimes a feathers released. But when storms come, what do Eagles do? They actually fly above it. So they take off. And so I look at it as a great way to avoid it. I'll keep busy. I'll work 80 hours a week instead of 40. I'll volunteer more. Wait, I'll have a cocktail or two or three. And that's where I found in my work that 75% of addictions are grief based.

I'll do everything I can to block it out. You know what? I'll have a couple of drinks, at least I'll be able to go to sleep. Well, I work last night, so I might also do it again tonight. Then that continuation, you do that 10 times, it becomes a habit. That's not the issue. What's the issue is, is then the body says, I need it to survive.

And so then that avoidance goes into play and that can happen for 80 years. You can stay lost in that avoidance the rest of your life. You look back in the history of time, how many people in the depression time lost children? 

[00:19:01] Angela Kennecke: Well, right. I mean, that is the one thing I think about a lot that for ages, I think of mothers, of course.

Cause I'm a mom. Yeah. Mothers have lost children. 

[00:19:11] Mark VandeBraak: Go to the cemetery. You oftentimes see baby one, baby two, right? They won't even give a name to the child, 

[00:19:17] Angela Kennecke: Right, I think this is not a unique thing, for a mother to have to go through, actually.

[00:19:22] Mark VandeBraak: No. So how does that intercede with relationships? How does that relate to addiction?

How does it relate to a chain reaction of events? So that eagle, to me, is a powerful bird. But it also represents avoidance. So neither of those animals, a turtle, the eagle are gonna help you, but the third animal always will, and that is the Tonka, the buffalo. 

[00:19:44] Angela Kennecke: That's one that goes into the storm . 

[00:19:46] Mark VandeBraak: That's right. So that Buffalo is such a powerful, powerful animal. If you really look at the makeup, it's broad shoulder, big head. They can run faster than horses. They get up to 40 miles an hour in speed, very family-based, and if you go near their calf, they will kill you.

Extremely protective, but. Very sacred because they're the giver of life in the traditional culture, the giver of life. Just like in Christianity, God is the giver of life, but when storms come, the buffalo turn and walk into it, they face it. And to me, that's such a powerful analogy that I've gotta walk into this grief storm.

I've gotta walk into this to get an understanding to find peace. 

[00:20:30] Angela Kennecke: So if you decide to walk into your own grief storm over the holidays, your holidays might be ruined. Everyone around you might be upset that you are not acting as if everything is okay. 

[00:20:43] Mark VandeBraak: They might. But your grief is your grief, right? 

[00:20:46] Angela Kennecke: Well, yes, but I think many of us feel as if we need to please and make sure other people are okay and compromise.

[00:20:55] Mark VandeBraak: Yeah. But that's the battle that's where for me, Angela. The writing tends to be a very personal journey. It it, it's a great way for us to actually do something tangible with the grief we can see. We can see those emotions. We can see the tears. It's okay. And I think the misconception about grief is we're not supposed to tear up.

We're not supposed to cry. And that's completely false. Those are the emotions because we love is why we're feeling this. And because you feel robbed, berafian, that is why you feel this. 

[00:21:28] Angela Kennecke: I think everyone who's lost a child feels robbed. 

[00:21:31] Mark VandeBraak: Absolutely that to me was why my, that word is so powerful. 

[00:21:35] Angela Kennecke: I've said that, early on, especially, I felt robbed. So practically, you know, we've talked about you could change your traditions, you could go somewhere, you could do something, you can write.

[00:21:46] Mark VandeBraak: You can write, I think for every individual is to find out what's gonna make sense of something that feels chaotic. And not closing the door on possibilities.

And people say, maybe have somebody available to call when you're struggling. You know, I emphasize having people there to call, but spend time visiting with your loved one that died. It sounds so abstract and weird, but then you allows you to focus your grief on that time, and then the rest of the day can be yours to determine.

[00:22:21] Angela Kennecke: Do you think that holidays get easier? I think for me personally, the first couple of years, every birthday, death date, every single holiday felt just like a punch in the gut. 

[00:22:35] Mark VandeBraak: Yep. there, there is a misnomer that the first holidays are the worst. That is not true. It's actually the second, third, and fourth ones that are worse.

[00:22:43] Angela Kennecke: Because you realize because this is it. This is it. They're not coming back. 

They're not coming back. I do feel now in my fourth year, more acceptance. Yeah. I know that she's not coming back. 

[00:22:55] Mark VandeBraak: Those are the triggers and they're, they're the major holidays, the, you know, Christmas and Thanksgiving, birthdays, but then there's secondary holidays.

Such as first day of school. Mm-hmm. or when or something happens in the family. A wedding. Or a wedding, or maybe she got her driver's license or. , things like that. They unsuspectingly, they hit you. Yeah. And it's just, I have found, we just gotta find ways to roll with it. 

[00:23:22] Angela Kennecke: Well before, I do think I dreaded the holidays where now I can look forward to the fact that my other children are coming home from college.

I have other family members coming. I'll be busy cooking, you know, all of these. , everything felt so joyless at first, where that I'm finding that joy. 

 It's not to say it's not tempered with some sorrow. 

[00:23:44] Mark VandeBraak: Right. But it's okay. Think of, there's a, a beautiful term that's used called amelioration of grief, and what it boils down to is grief takes time.

Only if you're working at. It just doesn't magically go away, right? But if you put that intentional work into it, you, I promise you, you will find peace in your heart. You'll have that connection, those gifts, those memories that you can choose to focus on. And I, I found in a very simple way, we can choose to live life bitter or we can choose to live life better.

One vowel makes a big difference in that. But we do have that choice. And if you really ask Emily, if you ask your loved one, what would they really want us to be doing? I think you know what the answer is. 

[00:24:30] Angela Kennecke: Sure. Of course, of course. Because love is always wanting the best for someone. Right. Love is not selfish.

Right. All of these things that, that verse has . Yes. And love is kind. 

Love is kind. Love is patient. Yes. Yes. 

True love and take personality or challenges out of it. Yeah. Right, 

right. 

[00:24:49] Mark VandeBraak: Those are just characters. When you love, you love with your whole heart. 

[00:24:53] Angela Kennecke: What has been the thing that you think has helped? You've worked with so many people over the years. Do you know how many people you've worked with?

right now an estimated 300,000. 

[00:25:01] Angela Kennecke: 300,000 people? 

[00:25:03] Mark VandeBraak: Yeah. 

[00:25:04] Angela Kennecke: It's a lot of people. What has been you think the most successful or what has helped people the most? 

[00:25:11] Mark VandeBraak: The intentional work of rebuilding a relationship with our loved one is being able to say, you know what?

They're a part of my story. I get to define who I am, but they are very much a part of my story. And those gifts that they gave me are still very evident in what I. Just like, if I can use you as an example, what you're doing with Emily's Hope is that magnitude of who Emily is.

[00:25:37] Angela Kennecke: Right. I love using her art in our work, and I always say a couple of things, helping others helps me.

Yeah. And I also think her death didn't have to happen. It could be meaningless. So I'm creating meaning out of something that 

[00:25:53] Mark VandeBraak: right. And that's what I try to challenge you to look at. It's how do you make sense of something that's senseless? How do you focus the attention on the gifts, 

[00:26:05] Angela Kennecke: try to do good in the world. Yeah. That's what I think. 

[00:26:08] Mark VandeBraak: Yeah. And that's exactly, you know, I, I can't ask for anything better. 

[00:26:13] Angela Kennecke: Some people aren't able to do things like that. I'm saying that some people get stuck.

I mean, they really get stuck. They get stuck in that horrible grief that in the denial, and this shouldn't have happened. Yeah. Why did this have to happen? 

[00:26:26] Mark VandeBraak: It's replaying the tape over and over 

again. 

[00:26:29] Angela Kennecke: I don't know how to help them.

[00:26:30] Mark VandeBraak: Well, 

[00:26:30] Angela Kennecke: not that I'm a counselor, I'm not 

Well, I, because you're the expert here. 

[00:26:33] Mark VandeBraak: In my selfishness, I would love to meet with them. I would love to be able to walk with them. When I do my work, I premise everything I do. I'm not there to do therapy.

[00:26:43] Angela Kennecke: I remember that when my family came, yeah, right after Emily died, we all came to see you and you said, I'm not therapist. No, not doing therapy here. 

[00:26:51] Mark VandeBraak: What I do is teach, I think education is far more important with grief work. It's, it's understanding how each of you, for example, each of your family member are going to grieve Emily. But you're all gonna do it differently and you each had a different relationship with her.

[00:27:10] Angela Kennecke: Yes. Yes. 

[00:27:11] Mark VandeBraak: You each knew her differently.

[00:27:12] Angela Kennecke: It's interesting to me though, that each member of my family has been helped. In different ways by putting themselves out there to help the charity and to help others. So the charity of Emily's hope gives the focal point, but has helped each 

member of the family.

Yeah. Who's contributed in their own 

way. 

[00:27:32] Mark VandeBraak: What a gift. 

[00:27:33] Angela Kennecke: Ah, it's pretty amazing actually. 

[00:27:36] Mark VandeBraak: You keep the legacy alive. 

[00:27:37] Angela Kennecke: Cause a lot of people ask me about Emily's siblings and we talk about her all the time. You know, worse, they're sad. They will never get over it. I will never get over it. They contribute in different ways to the charity and that helps them.

[00:27:50] Mark VandeBraak: Exactly. And I, I, again, cautious, I would never say, use the words, get over it. I will never use the terms. Move on. No, because move forward, but not, but you live with it. 

[00:28:03] Angela Kennecke: Right, you learn to live with it. 

[00:28:04] Mark VandeBraak: You, you carry them with you in your life. And that's why I say they're still part of your story. That's why that connection is so powerful when they're in your heart. Cause they're always with you. Mm-hmm. , you don't have 'em physically here, but you still have a relationship with them. Right. You still can, we've just gotta open our heart to hear.

[00:28:24] Angela Kennecke: And I think I probably feel the most connected to my daughter when I'm out in nature, when I'm walking, when I'm alone. 

[00:28:29] Mark VandeBraak: She enjoyed it. So that was that connection. Yeah. Or maybe you're at a gallery somewhere or you see a painting that triggers something. Yeah. Yeah. There are gifts all around us.

[00:28:40] Angela Kennecke: There are gifts all around us. It's having to open your eyes and you, like you said, your heart. Yeah. To see them because it's easy. Just not to notice.

[00:28:48] Mark VandeBraak: Right, and you become tunnel vision. And what I'm in, in essence trying to do is poke some holes in that tunnel to let some of this light in. If you're willing to look at that light, you're gonna find the direction it takes.

Maybe this changes your heart, maybe it changes how you view people. Maybe you know, our connection with other people. 

[00:29:08] Angela Kennecke: And I think you're right. Something you said when we started the podcast was that anticipation of these significant dates. Actually building up to it is much harder than the day itself.

[00:29:19] Mark VandeBraak: Absolutely. 

[00:29:20] Angela Kennecke: The day comes and goes.

[00:29:21] Mark VandeBraak: It's almost like a letdown sometimes.

[00:29:23] Angela Kennecke: Because it's not as awful as you thought it was gonna be? I do think that there is some truth to that. That is, is a lot of like, oh my gosh, here we go again. Almost that time of year again.

[00:29:32] Mark VandeBraak: If you can just plan, just write down a plan. Again, what time are you gonna wake? 

[00:29:37] Angela Kennecke: Details is what you're saying. 

[00:29:39] Mark VandeBraak: Details, yeah. Mm-hmm. , you know, what time are you gonna have your first cup of coffee? I don't care what it is, but have that structure. But allow yourself the time to talk with your loved one. Spend some time grieving and being connected, and then when that hour's up or whatever, then this is what I'm going to do.

[00:29:57] Angela Kennecke: You're saying schedule it? 

[00:29:59] Mark VandeBraak: Yeah, 

[00:29:59] Angela Kennecke: schedule the time.

[00:30:00] Mark VandeBraak: The structured, the better. I would encourage you this when you were talking about making fudge. Okay. When are you and Emily gonna make some fudged this year? 

[00:30:08] Angela Kennecke: And see, I, I have made it, but I don't think I made it last year. There was one year, but it felt weird not to make it. 

[00:30:14] Mark VandeBraak: So when are you gonna make fudge? 

[00:30:16] Angela Kennecke: Yeah, I'll put that on my calendar. Right. And maybe I'll just be alone in my kitchen and not expect one of my other children to take her place. Yeah. Cause nobody really wants do it anyway. 

[00:30:26] Mark VandeBraak: Right. , so I, I understand. But, but that way, when you're making it, guess what you get to do?

[00:30:33] Angela Kennecke: I have a conversation with her. 

[00:30:34] Mark VandeBraak: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:30:36] Angela Kennecke: Spend time with her. 

[00:30:37] Mark VandeBraak: Absolutely. 

[00:30:38] Angela Kennecke: I like that idea. Thanks for that. 

[00:30:40] Mark VandeBraak: You're, you're welcome. 

[00:30:41] Angela Kennecke: I think getting through the holidays may be a little bit easier for me now, and hopefully many other people. 

[00:30:46] Mark VandeBraak: Oh, I hope so. And just like I said, I, my passion in life is trying to help people understand grief in a whole different way. 

[00:30:54] Angela Kennecke: Our culture doesn't help us with that, so thank you for helping us with that. 

[00:30:57] Mark VandeBraak: I try, always trying . 

[00:30:59] Angela Kennecke: Thank you for joining us. You can listen to more episodes of Grieving Out Loud and read my blogs on our website, emilyshope.charity. Thanks for listening. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage.