[00:00:00] Celia Farmer: the pain's the same. At the end of the day, we've all lost a child. 

[00:00:03] Angela Kennecke: When you lose a child in a stigmatized death such as fentanyl poisoning or suicide, you can feel the judgment of other parents. Celia Farmer was devastated by the suicide of her 14- year- old daughter, Mali. My family has a personal connection to Mali. My youngest son went to middle school with her and this was the first person he knew who completed suicide during their freshman year of high school.

[00:00:29] Celia Farmer: . I got a call 10 minutes after I was at the grocery store that she had hung herself in her closet.

[00:00:36] Angela Kennecke: Celia was a among the first moms to reach out to me as part of this club that no one wants to join and we can never leave. I will always remember her kindness and we had this insightful conversation about child loss and grief. Just a little more than a year after I lost Emily. 

Celia, let's start by talking about how you and I met. I met you shortly after Emily died within weeks. You reached out to me as a mom who had lost her child a year earlier. Why did you do that? 

[00:01:12] Celia Farmer: I found that in my grief journey, that reaching out to other moms that have lost their children was very helpful to me.

 I like to think of myself as maybe a, a chain part of a chain of support. Where people that, have lost their child. It's such an overwhelming experience and you're in a blur. There's a fog, if you will, that takes over you, you know, when you lose your child, losing a child is probably the worst thing that can happen to anybody.

It is the worst thing. 

[00:01:50] Angela Kennecke: I think those of us who have lost children would agree to that. And now I know what you're talking about because just recently, Within the last couple of weeks, I know a mom who lost a son in a car accident, and I made sure to go to the visitation as hard as it was for me.

It was in the same funeral home where my daughter's visitation was held, so it brought up a lot of the trauma for me, but I made it a point to stand in the line and to hug her and to let her know that I was there for her because one thing that really stood out to me after Emily, were those who showed up where in the past I might have just sent a card.

I might have just, Oh, I didn't know this person super well. I might have just made a phone call later or, or done something along those lines. Now I know the importance of showing up. And you did that for me, right? We didn't even know each other. 

[00:02:40] Celia Farmer: Nope. It's, it's important to bring that presence to the families that have also suffered child loss.

It's, it's a hand up. It's, it's a hand in the. and it just helps all of us that have lost a child, know we're not alone. 

[00:02:57] Angela Kennecke: Right. I think it helps me reaching out too, because then my pain can be useful. Exactly. I think that's the one thing you and I have both struggled with and strived to figure out how can we take something that's so painful and seem so meaningless and create purpose and positivity.

[00:03:16] Celia Farmer: Exactly for me, positive points that I've, I've, learned from losing a child. It even as, as much as you don't wanna get out of bed and you don't feel like going on, you have to remember that half of you, especially as a mother, half of you died the same day your child died. And it's really, really hard to get, through that, that misery and the overwhelming pain and the fog, you just feel alone, even though you're surrounded by.

[00:03:49] Angela Kennecke: The one thing I realized pretty early on, I think in this society of looking for relief, we look for relief from whatever pains and losses we're suffering from big ones, minor ones in the form of distraction, in the form of food or alcohol or something, right, to just relieve the brain from the horrible anxiety, the agony.

And I found really pretty early on, I came to the realization. There was no magic pill. There was really no relief. Nobody could, even, you who'd been through this and you wanted to meet with me and we talked, and that was helpful to know I wasn't alone, but you couldn't offer me, Oh, this is the magic thing you do to feel 

[00:04:29] Celia Farmer: better.

There is nothing you can do to make yourself feel better, at least from a, a medication sort of standpoint. 

[00:04:38] Angela Kennecke: Or even just like trying to, you know, distraction always comes back as just such an overwhelming thing, right? Right. 

[00:04:44] Celia Farmer: You know, you go to work, you do that routine, you try to follow that routine, but there are times when even that routine can't save you.

you just have to learn to pick yourself up and reach out to those people that you've built that support group with. For me personally, it's been the parents of kids that have lost their, or mothers and fathers that have lost their children, and it's, it's not limited to just one thing. People that have lost their children, have lost their children, whether it be through illness 

[00:05:17] Angela Kennecke: accident, right?

Sometimes, and you've probably experienced this too, I have people tell me, Well, I lost a child. Oh, it was in a different way because there is so much shame surrounding drug addiction and suicide. Both, both of these things have to do with mental health. . And I always find that interesting when somebody says that and I just kind of look at them and say, Well, you lost a child.

I lost a child. What doesn't matter, right? There 

[00:05:38] Celia Farmer: is how they died. There is no difference. There's no difference. The pain is the same, the pain's the same. At the end of the day, we've all lost a child. 

[00:05:44] Angela Kennecke: And sometimes worse, there's so much guilt, I think, associated with the loss, whether it be to suicide or overdose because you couldn't help them.

And I heard a really great thing recently, some researchers. Looking into grief would ask parents who were feeling a sense of guilt. Did you ever do anything intentionally to harm your child? 

[00:06:05] Celia Farmer: Exactly. Did you? I never, no. Never 

[00:06:09] Angela Kennecke: did anything to harm my child. Neither one of us ever did 

[00:06:12] Celia Farmer: anything intentional and I, I believe most, parents that are experiencing this would answer the same way.

Right. I never did 

[00:06:20] Angela Kennecke: anything. I think, I think it's a universal answer. Mm. So the guilt really shouldn't be there because we all did the best we could with the information we had at the time to try to help our 

[00:06:30] Celia Farmer: children. There's a big social stigma that's attached to losing a child in. Any respect, people would, at least I felt people would look at me and think, Oh, why did her daughter kill herself?

She must be a horrible mother. Do you think that's true 

[00:06:46] Angela Kennecke: though, or was that just, were those just negative thoughts in your 

[00:06:49] Celia Farmer: mind? I think part of it, a lot of it is negative thoughts. and I think that the, the vision that you're seeing in front of. , even with your colleagues or your friends, they may seem like they've withdrawn.

They're not thinking that, they just don't know what to say. Let's 

[00:07:06] Angela Kennecke: talk about that for a minute. What to say, What do you think are some of the worst things that people can say to a grieving 

[00:07:12] Celia Farmer: parent? I have a whole list of them. Well rattle some 

[00:07:15] Angela Kennecke: off for me, 

[00:07:16] Celia Farmer: just a few, things like, she's in a better 

[00:07:18] Angela Kennecke: place.

That's one of my least favorite, because I wanna say, How do you know that? Yeah, they don't. Can you prove that to me? I mean, I wanna have faith. You're a faithful person. Mm-hmm. . But that's one of the worst things people can say. It is awful for me. The other one too that I struggled with, especially at first, was just the simple, How are you?

How are you doing? And I actually spoke to a counselor I've been working with to work through my grief, and she gave me a brilliant answer. I'm doing the best I. . So a lot of times I would say that now when people ask me, I just say I'm okay because I never feel like I'm as happy as I was before Emily died.

[00:07:54] Celia Farmer: Right. There's, it leaves you with a, a hole in your, in your body and in your mind where your child was. 

[00:08:04] Angela Kennecke: What are some of those other things? You were, you were struggling a little bit to tell me what some of the other things that people, the inappropriate things that people. that they don't even realize.

You know, they're trying to be helpful. They're trying to be nice. 

[00:08:16] Celia Farmer: You, you'll get past this time, heals all wounds. Time will never 

[00:08:19] Angela Kennecke: heal this. No, it doesn't. I think it might just from your a year further along in this journey than I am. but just having a year have gone by, I don't think time can heal it, but, Dull the pain a little bit.

Yes. Or there might be more better days than worse days. 

[00:08:38] Celia Farmer: Absolutely. Right. I don't have, as many, crushing days where I just can't function. with the, with the time that passes, you just, you learn different ways to cope with that grief. it's never gonna be something that's gonna go. I've found that having, faith that that's played a huge role in trying to find a place where I could actually function as a productive member of my family or my work.

[00:09:13] Angela Kennecke: You know, Mali was a very faithful person as well. Church was important to her. She was. Let's talk a little bit about Mali, cuz I don't want that to get lost in this conversation surrounding her loss. Tell me who she was. 

[00:09:25] Celia Farmer: Mali was a wonderful kid. She was very bright. She was musically inclined. She played the violin since she was two or two, excuse me, second grade.

[00:09:36] Angela Kennecke: Emily played the violin too since second first or 

[00:09:39] Celia Farmer: second grade, right? Yeah. So there's a lot of similarities between Emily and Mali, right? Mali loves sports. She played softball, she ran track. She. Loved animals. There wasn't a time when, this wonderful girl was not wanting to go to the Humane Society and, and walk the dogs.

Or Pet. Pet the cats, you know, and have some interaction of that sort. She brought every living creature into her home. Then I could count. 

[00:10:09] Angela Kennecke: Well bless you for allowing that. I don't know that I would allow that. I'm allergic to a lot of things, but that's, that's awesome that, you know, you had that, those experiences with her and, and those kind of joyful memories.

[00:10:22] Celia Farmer: We do have a lot of joyful memories and. , it's, it's so important to remember those instead of focusing on the bad. I 

[00:10:31] Angela Kennecke: think it's important to do both, don't you think? Mm-hmm. , I think it's important to have balance because you don't wanna think on one hand that everything was. Peach. You don't wanna gloss over cuz it wasn't.

No, I mean I really struggled a lot with Emily and her behavior, especially starting about the age of 15, 16 and the rebellion that she was going through. And so I don't wanna forget that any of that happened. And just think about all the years before that where, you know, everything was great, right? 99.9% of the time.

But I think it's also important to remember the joyful things that happened and, And the smiles, and the hugs and the wonderful things as well as the. To have a balanced idea in your brain, 

[00:11:08] Celia Farmer: right? There does need to be a balance. one of the things, I like to think about, as far as malls goes, you know, she, she was a teenager and she didn't really get to the point of, of doing overt, naughty things that a teenager would do.

she was very introvert. she liked her friends, but she didn't spend a whole lot of time with them and maybe this should have been an, indicator for her father and I, but we didn't see it. she had always loved being at home with her family. 

[00:11:41] Angela Kennecke: Well, I have a child like that too, who just likes to be at home.

Right. And is more introverted. Right. So there are introverts and there are extroverts. I don't know that that's necessarily a sign that someone will die by suicide.

[00:11:53] Celia Farmer: Exactly. She, she was such a artist. Person as well. She painted, she did a lot of crafts. she enjoyed, doing things on the computer. visual artwork.

There's, there's so many things that you could as a parent go on and on and on about how great your kid was. And you know, everybody knows teenagers are not fun to be with. Sometimes , 

[00:12:16] Angela Kennecke: they can be challenging for sure, and especially strong-willed ones. Mm-hmm. , at what point did you know that something was, 

[00:12:25] Celia Farmer: She came to us about three weeks before she passed away, before she completed suicide.

it was pretty late. It was a Sunday, and she came into my room at about 11:00 PM and she was in tears and I didn't understand why she was so upset and she wouldn't talk to me. She handed me a post-it. and I opened, I read it and it said, I wanna die. So immediately, I had her get dressed and we took her down to a Avera's Behavioral Health, and they admitted her.

[00:13:03] Celia Farmer: So she spent about eight days there, 

[00:13:06] Angela Kennecke: and this is just three weeks before she died. The first sign of a very serious problem,

[00:13:10] Celia Farmer: three weeks. 

[00:13:11] Angela Kennecke: Oh. 

[00:13:12] Celia Farmer: The psychiatrist, re recommended that she, take Prozac. So they started her on, on the smallest dose. I can't say that it was working or not. Those types of medications take, they take time, weeks and months to work.

She went to counseling, she went to peer counseling. it, we did everything that we. Was appropriate in her case. I'm sure you did. We brought her home. She, she had trouble with school. I think she was ashamed and she, she just didn't wanna see anybody. She talked about online school and, 

[00:13:53] Angela Kennecke: because people knew she'd been hospitalized, did they know, is that what she was ashamed of?

[00:13:57] Celia Farmer: She was ashamed that everybody knew that she had been hospitalized for mental illness. So there again, we go back to that stigma, which doesn't, it doesn't start with the parents. It actually starts with your child. You, it's, it's that social stigma that makes mental illness not okay in our society. 

[00:14:19] Angela Kennecke: So she came home and she's talking about maybe I need to go to school online.

She was little bit embarrassed to go back to school, but she did go back to school. 

[00:14:27] Celia Farmer: She went back to school for about three days and that Friday. Unbeknownst to us, she had cleaned out her locker. Of course we wouldn't know that. No. You know, cuz we don't. 

[00:14:37] Angela Kennecke: So she in her mind, was thinking this out, 

[00:14:40] Celia Farmer: right? She didn't do things like give her stuff away.

She didn't say goodbye. she just packed out her locker. And one of the funny things, she had a very, very good friend, she wasn't able to, to meet her face to face. They spent a lot of time chatting and they were the same age. And that Friday her friend came to Sioux Falls for a gymnastics tournament.

So Mali asked if she could meet her, and we all went as a family and met her family, and they were just thrilled to see each other that morning. She just didn't seem herself. And we had gone to Scheels to buy her sandals for the spring. It's a mom. It's a mom and daughter thing. 

[00:15:28] Angela Kennecke: Yeah. Shopping. Always shopping. Yeah. 

[00:15:30] Celia Farmer: She had a, she had a meltdown and so I, I took her out to the car and we chatted and talked and I told her that everything would be okay in time. Leaned back on that. Faith, leaned back on. Your family. 

[00:15:45] Angela Kennecke: Seems like sound advice. 

[00:15:47] Celia Farmer: She continued to say, I'm such a burden. I'm, I'm useless. things like that.

And at that point I started to worry that some, there was more going on there. I, I did talk to her doctor. I called the oncall number. Got ahold of her psychiatrist and she said to just keep an eye on Mali and she would see her on Monday. And I think that's a, a natural thing. That's a, that's a pretty good response for something we don't know about.

Right. That afternoon I asked her if she wanted to come to the grocery store with me, another Saturday routine for us, and she didn't wanna go, so I just took it as she just needs to rest of. Who wouldn't, right? She, she was just in a tough place. I got a call 10 minutes after I was at the grocery store that she had hung herself in her closet.

[00:16:44] Angela Kennecke: 10 minutes, 

[00:16:45] Celia Farmer: 10 minutes after I left. 

[00:16:48] Angela Kennecke: Oh, I'm so sorry. 

[00:16:51] Celia Farmer: I must have driven 90 miles an hour down Marion. I ran every. . I got there and the fire rescue team was already there. The front of my home. There were so many police officers. I 

[00:17:05] Angela Kennecke: isn't. That just burned when you talk about it. You relive it, don't you? Because I know I do. When I start talking about that scene and arriving at the scene and the emergency personnel and it'll never leave. 

[00:17:16] Celia Farmer: It's so traumatic. It's traumatic, and it's. It's burned right into your soul and in into your heart and your mind. I never got to say goodbye to my daughter. Well, we looked for a letter or a note.

We didn't find one right away. She, she left a note and it was, my daughter was a little pack rat and when her older siblings had moved out of the home, she would just rotate from room to room, . 

So she would just claim another room. Mm-hmm. and then store, put her stuff in there. 

Yeah. So at, you know, by the end she had three bedrooms.

Oh, that's funny. And. when cleaning out all those bedrooms, we found the note in one of the beds and not her main bedroom. So that was very hard for us. 

[00:18:02] Angela Kennecke: You can share with us if you want what it said. You don't have to, but did it shed any light? Did it answer any of your questions? 

[00:18:08] Celia Farmer: It did not. All the, all of her notes said was how much she loved. Her dad and I, 

[00:18:14] Angela Kennecke: Well, she loved you and she wanted you to know she loved you.

[00:18:17] Celia Farmer: Mm-hmm. , and that she felt like a failure at everything she had done. This was a b plus student. She excelled at everything. 

[00:18:25] Angela Kennecke: She wasn't a, even if. Didn't get good grades. You know, as a kid you're not a failure . Yeah, no. Well, it's a learning experience. She herself as that. Exactly. And that's something wrong with the brain wiring, right? It's absolutely. It goes along with that mental illness and depression, 

[00:18:40] Celia Farmer: that mental illness, the depression, the anxiety that she was feeling. 

[00:18:45] Angela Kennecke: Let's talk about the things that people should say. We talked about what people shouldn't say. What should they say? 

[00:18:52] Celia Farmer: Just presence. just to hear her name. People are afraid to use the name. 

[00:19:00] Angela Kennecke: Mm-hmm. . You just even bring it up or talk to you about 

[00:19:03] Celia Farmer: it. It, it, it's hurtful because our daughters were here. They were people. They had lives and, 

[00:19:13] Angela Kennecke: and they were more, The thing that bothers me, I think, and I'm sure it bothers you too, they were more than just how they died.

[00:19:18] Celia Farmer: Exactly. 

[00:19:20] Angela Kennecke: Or the illness they were suffering from, in Mali's case, mental illness and Emily's case, mental illness combined with addiction. Cuz I think the two always go hand in hand. 

[00:19:28] Celia Farmer: Absolutely. 

[00:19:29] Angela Kennecke: And so as people, as souls, they were much more than that. 

[00:19:34] Celia Farmer: They, their death should not define them. 

[00:19:37] Angela Kennecke: And that's hard in our society.

[00:19:39] Celia Farmer: It is. I think that's the social norm. If somebody. Does drugs, they're a bad person. If somebody completes suicide, oh, there must have been a problem in the family. You know, And that's not the case. It really isn't. you can have a child that has mental illness and or drug addiction on top of that, or anxiety or any other of the, mental illnesses that are fairly common amongst children in the United States.

[00:20:08] Angela Kennecke: Extremely common today, 

[00:20:10] Celia Farmer: and it. . It's not something that our children, should be blamed for or looked down upon for. It's like having cancer. If any one of our children had cancer, there would be so much support rallied around them. And when your child dies of suicide or an overdose or something, that's not a societal. Then people I think pull back. They just don't know what to say. 

[00:20:45] Angela Kennecke: I'm hoping with conversations like this one that we can change that eventually, it may take some time, but eventually I hope for other parents who face this kind of thing in the future that will go away because of moms like us who are willing to talk about it.

[00:21:02] Celia Farmer: I think you have to get out on the, for. That's one of the biggest things that have really helped me, manage my, my pain. 

[00:21:12] Angela Kennecke: Yeah. Let's talk about that. How have you done that? How have you gotten out onto the forefront and, and helped manage your pain? And I know it's not always easy, 

[00:21:20] Celia Farmer: right? I'm, I've actually gone to the, the capital peer.

and I'm currently working with Senator Wayne Steinhauser. we've, we've explored a lot of options and opportunities, as far as what can we do as a state to try to open up that line of communication about stigma and mental illness. currently he's working on education, which is a. First start and not so much education for children that are suffering from mental illness or addiction.

more for our first responders. they're the front line. They're the ones who have to walk in and see these things, and it's. It's not pleasant. As we know, most of our paramedics, firemen, they have families 

[00:22:14] Angela Kennecke: and I think they suffer from post traumatic stress too. 

[00:22:17] Celia Farmer: They suffer terribly. And you know, our law enforcement, you know, these people that are on the scene that it's so difficult for them.

One of the things we did, my husband and I. After Mali died, about six months later, we went out to the fire station, to speak with the firefighters that were actually on the scene, trying to save Mali. And for them, I think it was, it was really relieving to know that the child that they couldn't save was a child.

She was a real person. We brought pictures of. We answered any questions that they may have had in regards to Mali, and most of the stuff they were interested in was who she was. 

[00:23:06] Angela Kennecke: That's wonderful. That's really great that you did that and really great that they wanted to know. 

[00:23:12] Celia Farmer: They did and it was a huge relief and you know, it wasn't just the firefighters there.

We had some police officers show up that were on the scene that. Paramedics. 

[00:23:24] Angela Kennecke: You know, one of the things I think that's hardest about losing someone so important in your life and such a huge, huge loss is that life doesn't stop after this loss. 

[00:23:37] Celia Farmer: It doesn't, 

[00:23:38] Angela Kennecke: and the stresses of life don't end. In fact, they can often be intensified. Have you found that to be the case? They 

[00:23:45] Celia Farmer: do get worse. I know for myself personally, I, I've struggled with work. I've had a career for 16 years. Trying to reincorporate yourself into your work family, that can be very, very difficult. Why is that, do you think? Again, I think it goes back to people don't know what to.

[00:24:11] Angela Kennecke: and people are also uncomfortable. They don't wanna have to think about it because most people think this can never happen to them. Right. You and I know it can happen to anybody at any time for lots of different reasons. Right. But people don't wanna be reminded of that either. 

[00:24:25] Celia Farmer: No, they, they don't. And you know, it's, it's one of those things where you just can't hold a grudge against them.

You just have to try. muddle your way through it, and sometimes that just doesn't work. And you find that the things in your life that were important before Yes. And not so important. 

[00:24:47] Angela Kennecke: Yes. I think the, your priorities change. First of all, you realize that the rug can be pulled out from under you at any moment. And I don't think any of us, any of us believed that. No. Before this happened to us. Nope. And so things that seem so important before this life changing, , you now know really aren't, and your priorities do shift. 

[00:25:08] Celia Farmer: They do, absolutely. I've found myself being drawn more to helping. And service to others, 

[00:25:16] Angela Kennecke: and I think that is a, a healing thing for both of us and helping other people. Then you don't think about yourself and your own pain as much by putting yourself out there to help others. 

[00:25:25] Celia Farmer: Even with Emily's hope that, I'm just amazed this, I couldn't have done that within the year, first year. 

[00:25:32] Angela Kennecke: Well, thank you.

I think I felt an obligation because of the platform that I have. Right, And it has also been. Healing for me. It's been a place for me to channel my grief. Now there are some downsides to some of that too, but overall, for the most part, I'm, I'm really glad I did it. 

[00:25:50] Celia Farmer: I, I believe that that has reached so many people in our city. 

[00:25:54] Angela Kennecke: I always say, if I can just save one person, and I'm sure you feel the same way.

[00:25:58] Celia Farmer: Absolutely.

[00:25:59] Angela Kennecke: And you've spoken to groups and 

[00:26:01] Celia Farmer: I've spoken to groups, I've worked with individual families that have children that are at. 

[00:26:07] Angela Kennecke: So you've saved lives already. 

[00:26:08] Celia Farmer: I would like to think that. 

[00:26:10] Angela Kennecke: I would like to think it too. 

[00:26:11] Celia Farmer: Yeah. As far as malls goes, we, we did try to set, we did set up a scholarship for her Oh, nice. At a Gorman. So children who want to attend Catholic faith-based schools. Could have an opportunity to attend. And with this scholarship, it supplements that tuition fee. 

[00:26:32] Angela Kennecke: That's great. 

[00:26:33] Celia Farmer: But that's about all we did. I, I just found that even though I, I like the idea of her scholarship, it's much better to have boots on the ground remembering her that way.

[00:26:45] Angela Kennecke: Let's talk about your faith for a minute. I'll be honest with you and tell you that I have always been, I'm Catholic as well. We're both Catholic. Catholic school, born and raised Catholic, raised my children, you know, and I also, one of the things I struggle with a little bit is raise your children up in the way they should go.

Right? Right. So you take them to church, you have them go through their first communion and their all, everything, all of the sacraments and confirmed and, and Emily's case and. And this still happens. It does. It's like it shouldn't happen if you're following all the rules set out by the church. Right, Exactly.

And so I've, I've struggled a little bit with that and it's not that I, I do, I am a spiritual person and I do believe there is a god, an intelligence in the universe. But it's been hard for me when I go to church, I cry. I mean, also that's where her funeral was held, and so it, it's been really hard and I think we're all expected to sort of just pick up where we left off.

[00:27:42] Celia Farmer: Faith, myself, being a cradle Catholic , we're expected to follow our catechism, participate. Our services observe our holy days. The first year after we lost Mali, I could not, I couldn't even walk into my parish. Of course, that's where her funeral was held. Her, classmates all attend mass there, or at least a great part of them do.

So I knew the kids that were Mali's age and their families and. Mali and I did quite a bit with the church. We, she was a server during mass. 

[00:28:30] Angela Kennecke: Has your faith increased since all this has happened? 

[00:28:32] Celia Farmer: I think it's starting to rebut is probably a better way to put that. And why is that? You get, you have an anger and I don't think it's necessarily with your parish, it's anger with God.

Cuz we don't know. We don't know. , why this happened and if there was a God, why didn't he stop this? 

[00:28:57] Angela Kennecke: Why was it allowed to happen? Right. 

[00:28:59] Celia Farmer: Absolutely. For me, I'm not typically an angry person and I never did go through that phase with Mali yet of being angry with her. 

[00:29:11] Angela Kennecke: I haven't been angry at Emily. 

[00:29:13] Celia Farmer: Yeah, it's weird, but I don't think you have to go through all those steps.

[00:29:17] Angela Kennecke: I, I think they've kind of proven that those five stages of grief are, are not very accurate. 

[00:29:21] Celia Farmer: No, they're not. And they don't all happen in the same order. No, but I was never angry with, with mali. I was angry with God. He took my best friend away. He took my youngest child. It just, It's, it's having your heart and your soul ripped out at the same time and not knowing it was coming.

And again, we followed the rules. We did everything that our faith prescribed for us to do. And once again, there are people out there that suffer this tragedy as well. It's, it's hard to explain, but faith for me, Second year of Mali's absence is something that I've, I've really had to work to build on, and faith wouldn't be my primary source of comfort.

It wasn't for a long time, year and a half, I just went through the motions, right? Especially this last year, I'd show up to church, I'd go through the motions, I would leave, and I didn't feel like I was really getting anything out of it like I used to. But now there's, there's kind of a glimmer there trying to rebuild my relationship with, with God and hopefully, you know, that'll be a good stepping point and crutch for me to fall back on.

[00:30:52] Angela Kennecke: What has been the most helpful to you through all of this 

[00:30:56] Celia Farmer: meeting? People that have gone through the same thing I have like meeting you. Most of the people that I was friends. Or I thought were, my friends have disappeared. 

[00:31:11] Angela Kennecke: Right. So I hear that a lot and have even noticed a few people I thought were friends have a lot less to do with me now.

[00:31:19] Celia Farmer: Absolutely. And it's hard. That hurts. 

[00:31:21] Angela Kennecke: It does hurt. It's another loss. It's a loss on top of a loss. It's maybe more minor loss, but it's a loss on top of a loss. 

[00:31:27] Celia Farmer: And loss over loss. Over loss. It, it can really bring a person to their knees. Mm. I found that my support circle now are women and husbands of these women fathers who've lost their children, have become my primary support.

[00:31:46] Angela Kennecke: What brings you joy today? 

[00:31:49] Celia Farmer: Seeing my granddaughter, my grandchildren. 

[00:31:52] Angela Kennecke: Yes, I bet children will do that, right? 

[00:31:55] Celia Farmer: They do, and I think with their presence, For a long time, I just didn't wanna see any of them. 

[00:32:03] Angela Kennecke: Why was that?

[00:32:04] Celia Farmer: It was a reminder. 

[00:32:05] Angela Kennecke: Just too painful, right? That your child is gone and here's another child. But it's not to re not to replace your grandchild can't replace your child. 

[00:32:12] Celia Farmer: No, they can't. And I just, I just didn't wanna be around any children and in meeting, folks like you and my friends out and. out in the city that have lost their children. It, it's given me some reinforcement to tell me, you know, it's okay to stand up on your two feet.

It's okay to be sad. It's okay to have good days. 

[00:32:42] Angela Kennecke: Yeah, I think that's, You're touching on something there. I think that sometimes we feel guilty when we're happy in the moment or when we're laughing. Right? Because the overwhelming grief and sadness seems to surround us all the. But occasionally when that lightens up or lets up, then you'll feel almost as if you're betraying at, right?

[00:33:00] Celia Farmer: Absolutely. 

[00:33:00] Angela Kennecke: Your child who has died. 

[00:33:02] Celia Farmer: That is exactly how it feels like. I think those feelings start to spread out over time, 

[00:33:09] Angela Kennecke: and that's where I'm talking about time dulls it maybe a little bit toll eases it a little. It doesn't ever take it away. No. And I don't think you'll ever get over losing a child.

[00:33:19] Celia Farmer: No. There's no getting over. It just changes. I one a, a gal that I had met whose daughter completed suicide about five years before Molly did. She, When I asked her in my first year, How am I gonna get through this? I, how am I gonna live, She just told me, I can't say that it's going to get better.

It's gonna magically fix itself. You just, it evolves into a different way of living. 

[00:33:57] Angela Kennecke: I had a friend, actually a new friend, so someone I met after Emily died, reached out to me and she had lost her daughter more than a decade earlier, and she, her daughter was 13, and she said, life becomes richer and more joyful in certain. Which I just looked at her at the time and I was like, What are you talking about? 

[00:34:20] Celia Farmer: Yeah, the Are you crazy ? 

[00:34:22] Angela Kennecke: Right. But I think that has to do with the changing of priorities too. Absolutely. Because you realize what's really important and when you focus on that, there can be joy in that. 

[00:34:32] Celia Farmer: There is, I, I have worked so hard to be successful at what I do. I spent that time focus. So solely on that, not with the intent of ignoring my family, but wanting to make their lives better. 

[00:34:49] Angela Kennecke: Right? Well, we mothers who work outside the home do so to support our families and to help our families, and we wanna be successful at that so that we can better support our families.

[00:34:59] Celia Farmer: If I could choose. Now, I, I know honestly in my heart, money and things don't matter as much as I thought they. 

[00:35:10] Angela Kennecke: Right. It's just the moments that we have. 

[00:35:12] Celia Farmer: I should have spent more of the time being a mother with my children instead of trying to climb that corporate ladder. So today, that's, that's a big lesson that I've learned and trying to be joyful in the moment.

Cause they do happen and they sneak up on you and you find yourself smiling or 

[00:35:33] Angela Kennecke: Oh my gosh, I'm happy. How can that be? 

[00:35:34] Celia Farmer: Right? Right. Cause it changes you, It, it makes you into somebody that you never thought you could be. 

[00:35:44] Angela Kennecke: Do you know what else I found for myself? That is very true. I am much more compassionate and much less judgmental.

[00:35:51] Celia Farmer: Absolutely. 

[00:35:52] Angela Kennecke: Of people and of families and of situations. I feel like I have such insight and understanding, especially when it from, in my case, when it comes to addiction. When I meet people who are struggling with addiction right now, I see them as a whole person. I see them as somebody's child. , 

[00:36:09] Celia Farmer: nobody chooses addiction either, right? It's, it's a mental illness. 

[00:36:13] Angela Kennecke: And do you think you have more compassion for

[00:36:16] Celia Farmer: Absolutely. 

[00:36:17] Angela Kennecke: Mm-hmm. , Right? So you become a more compassionate person, but at the same time, you have to kinda, I always liken it. I, I read this quote, I can't remember exactly where I got it from, but it's like the brick in the pocket, like you're walking around with a brick in your pocket.

And sometimes you can forget that brick is there, but every once in a while you stick your hand in your pocket. Oh yeah. There's that brick. You kinda get used to carrying that heavy weight right. Of the brick. So you get used to carrying the heavy weight of grief. 

[00:36:46] Celia Farmer: That ab that's, that's the truth. 

[00:36:48] Angela Kennecke: And every once in a while you forget it's there and there, there it is again.

[00:36:52] Celia Farmer: I kinda like to think of that, as my backpack with stones in it. Right. along the way, through the process of grieving and trying to find my new normal, I'm able to take one of those rocks outta my bag and set them to the side. 

[00:37:09] Angela Kennecke: Right? And no two people grieve alike. I mean, some people are more resilient. I think a lot of it depends on your background, your history, your brain. I mean so many things. And so even when we're connecting as parents with other parents who've lost children, that we can be grieving in very different ways. 

[00:37:28] Celia Farmer: Absolutely. The, the grief process is different for everyone. there are, there are folks that are, are very, very strong and they appear to be very strong, is probably a better one.

[00:37:41] Angela Kennecke: People always tell me I'm strong and I find that I talked to another man who said the same thing, Who lost his daughter to overdose? Do people tell you you're strong all the time cuz you talk about it? And I said, Yes, but I don't think that's the right word. I don't feel strong. . I just feel like I'm capable of doing this, so I do it.

[00:37:57] Celia Farmer: That's one of the things I admire about you. Angela. I, 

[00:38:00] Angela Kennecke: Oh, Celia, 

[00:38:00] Celia Farmer: when I met you, and it wasn't even very long after Emily passed, the one thing that struck me was you were very driven. 

[00:38:11] Angela Kennecke: I'm a very driven person. I think that's just my personality, right? 

[00:38:14] Celia Farmer: You were driven to, to put that big sign up where a lot of us can't do that either because we're afraid or we don't know how to, but to put that sign up for mental illness and drug addiction and all the things that society, tends to. Shun or look away from and, and put that message out there so loudly and with such grace, it's, it's a benefit to all of our parents. that, that have lost a child. 

[00:38:46] Angela Kennecke: I do feel like I'm shouting from the rooftop sometimes. You know, this is, this is addiction, this is a disease, this is mental illness.

You know, we need to have more compassion, we need to have better treatment. All of these things. I also sometimes feel the struggle of, I'm only one voice and I can only do so much. And so it takes everybody. Everybody, and you are speaking to me on this podcast. That's brave Celia. A lot of parents wouldn't do that.

So the fact that you're joining me in this. Means so much to me because I couldn't, and so, and other mothers, other parents and other people, I, I couldn't do it alone. There's no way. 

[00:39:21] Celia Farmer: There has to be a voice in as, as long as we see that beacon in one. It's a, it's a light and it will draw other people to that beacon who've experienced the same pain and Sarah we have.

And we just keep adding those voices one by one. And pretty soon we're an orchestra. 

[00:39:42] Angela Kennecke: I love that analogy. That's awesome. I was recently in Washington DC in an addiction policy forum meeting, and they include families who've lost loved ones in the opioid epidemic as part of this group we're, we're. Stakeholders in this organization. And so I was about with about 30 other parents who'd all lost children. And it is interesting immediately, I mean, there's no judgment among any of us. We're not sizing each other up, We're not looking at what the other parents other woman is wearing or any of these things.

It's just, it's instant acceptance and it's intant empathy. And compassion and you just know that person, you know what they've been through. Now, you may not, you may respond in different ways and things like that, but that's not what I'm talking about. But it was really interesting, this group of mothers, we were sitting around and then all of a sudden the subject of, have you had a sign from your child?

And this subject came up in, every single mother had more than one sign, several signs from their children. and I just found that to be such a fascinating conversation that you couldn't have with anybody else. 

[00:40:50] Celia Farmer: No. They would think you're crazy. You're, you're quite mad off your rocker . 

[00:40:55] Angela Kennecke: Some of these things were, were mind blowing though, so I have to say, I won't tell other people's stories, but, you know, without them here, but it, it was, it, they, some of them were really mind blowing. Some of the signs I have received, I think, Oh, do I just want that to be a sign? Is that just a coincidence? But I had someone tell me, If you find comfort in it, what does it hurt? 

[00:41:13] Celia Farmer: It doesn't, doesn't hurt anything. 

[00:41:16] Angela Kennecke: I know you've been through counseling, grief counseling, and what have you learned from all that?

[00:41:20] Celia Farmer: I am still doing grief counseling. 

[00:41:22] Angela Kennecke: Well, good . So everyone, I think this is a journey. It's a, it's a process. It's not, doesn't happen overnight 

[00:41:29] Celia Farmer: and it's a process. 

[00:41:30] Angela Kennecke: What, what have you learned though, do you think? 

[00:41:32] Celia Farmer: Probably learning to love myself more than. 

[00:41:36] Angela Kennecke: We put our children first, don't we? 

[00:41:38] Celia Farmer: We do. 

[00:41:38] Angela Kennecke: I feel like I love my children more than I love myself. and I know that's, You're not supposed to, right? You're supposed to love yourself first. 

 Right? And,

[00:41:46] Angela Kennecke: but we all, we all moms, you know, 

[00:41:48] Celia Farmer: we do this because of that. Love the connection we have with our children, carrying them in our womb. Giving birth to them. Not that the dads are off to the side, but that connection to our children in that manner as a woman is, is very, very deep because we, we do produce them with our body. I think with therapy, self-acceptance, trying to learn to love yourself, having somebody listen to you, that's not gonna judge you 

 non-judgmental listening. Right, right, 

[00:42:22] Celia Farmer: right. I actually went through, I like to call it the interview process. I, I interviewed several therapists before I, I settled with the one, that I am working with. There's not a right fit if you choose to go the therapy route. You, you have to really shop for who you wanna work with, and that can be frustrating for a lot of parents, especially parents that.

Don't have the means to seek out that type of treatment. 

[00:42:55] Angela Kennecke: Well, and everything. There's so many demands on this. It's also time consuming. You have to leave work. I mean, because these therapists work normal business hours, right, Right, right. So you have to leave work. If you have to find this person, you have to somehow incorporate it into your schedule, which is a lot of demands on all of us.

[00:43:10] Celia Farmer: Right. 

[00:43:11] Angela Kennecke: But it's so important that we don't neglect 

[00:43:14] Celia Farmer: ourselves, and I've just kind of, I've come to the point. . If I can't take care of myself in that manner, I'm useless to everybody else. I'm useless to my other children who, Yeah, they're grown, they're old, they're, 

[00:43:29] Angela Kennecke: they always their need you though. 

[00:43:30] Celia Farmer: They, you, they still need you and I, I can't be of service to them or anybody else unless I'm taking care of me and, which is a hard lesson to learn cuz I never did that before.

[00:43:43] Angela Kennecke: we're trained as women, as moms in this. Put others first, but as the analogy goes, you have to put your own oxygen mask on first before you can help put on others. 

[00:43:54] Celia Farmer: Right, right. That's a good, analogy for that. I'm, I've just found that if I can't take care of myself, then everything else has to take second seat.

[00:44:06] Angela Kennecke: And you have made some, you're doing some new things in your life that, that are exciting. Something to look forward to, right? 

[00:44:12] Celia Farmer: They are. I'm, I'm just thrilled. I was accepted at Dakota State University. 

[00:44:18] Angela Kennecke: Congratulations. 

[00:44:19] Celia Farmer: Thanks. going to do something that I love instead of doing something that I have to do to, to make that income.

And even though I've, I've had a very successful. I just, I need a change and I felt this need to, I, I guess you would call it cleaning house. 

[00:44:41] Angela Kennecke: And you moved too. I mean, you've done so many, you've made a lot of big changes. 

[00:44:44] Celia Farmer: Big changes. I waited a year and sort of spent that last six months of the year really taking inventory of the things that were important in my life and the things that were not so important and. I decided that I needed to have a makeover. . 

[00:45:05] Angela Kennecke: Yeah. And you're doing it. You're doing it every day. And I know there are lots of hard days, but just the fact that you're putting one foot in front of the other and making these decisions and doing something new and learning something new, 

[00:45:18] Celia Farmer: right? 

[00:45:19] Angela Kennecke: It's really good for you.

[00:45:20] Celia Farmer: It is, and it's positive. And those are the things that even though my heart is broken, it will never become unbroken. I can do things that I never thought I could do. 

[00:45:34] Angela Kennecke: So it seems almost sacrilegious to say something positive comes out of such horrible tragedy. But I think it's all kind of how we look at it and frame it up. It not to negate the loss and not to, say that their lives didn't matter or you're that something happened to your child because these positive things resulted from it. But there are, if you choose to find them and look at. There are positive things that come out of even the worst tragedies. Look at Auschwitz. Look at some of the people that came outta concentration camps and what they were able to do with their lives. 

[00:46:09] Celia Farmer: If you make a choice to change, to look at the positives, to feel joy and not feel guilty about it, to put that, that angst. People that have lost their children into motion. You can build, you could build so much.

Kind of like to think of it as a a moth or a butterfly. You end up in a cocoon. You don't know how to get out. You're very immature. And as time goes on, a beautiful butterfly can emerge from that, and you don't have to stay in that cocoon. 

[00:46:47] Angela Kennecke: Right? And that's the healthy thing to do because some people do choose to stay. Stuck. 

[00:46:52] Celia Farmer: Stuck is absolutely right. And when you're in that dark space, nothing good can come out of it. And I don't wanna sound insensitive to my club members in this awful club we're in that nobody had a choice. 

[00:47:08] Angela Kennecke: Nobody wants to join. Yeah. Welcome to the club . 

[00:47:11] Celia Farmer: They, they just, I wish for a moment that, that all of us who are suffering from, from this loss. just take a minute and look at yourselves and know that you're not alone, you, but reaching out or being the one to reach your hand out is something that if you wanna take that first step, that should be it right there. 

[00:47:33] Angela Kennecke: And I think if you can open your heart instead of closing your heart through whatever tragedy or loss you've experienced in your life, there's a lot of losses. Divorce. Mm-hmm. , other things. Losing a job. If you can, instead of shutting down and closing off your heart, if you can open your heart, that's when you'll find new paths and you'll find joy again. 

[00:47:55] Celia Farmer: Absolutely. 

[00:47:57] Angela Kennecke: I really appreciate you opening up and sharing Mali's story with us and talking about it, and also keeping her memory alive and for helping other parents.

That's huge. 

[00:48:07] Celia Farmer: I just wanna be of service. 

[00:48:09] Angela Kennecke: I love that and we'll end on that note. Thank you. 

[00:48:12] Celia Farmer: Thanks, Angela

[00:48:13] Angela Kennecke: You can listen to more episodes of Grieving Out Loud and read my blogs on our website, Emily's Hope dot charity. If you like what you're hearing, please consider leaving us a positive review on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage