[00:00:00] Art Kleinschmidt: Music starts

So I was working at a treatment center for, really severe substance use disorders, dual diagnosed, type of clients, multiple overdoses and then we just packed up the car and then I came on out to DC 

[00:00:12] Angela Kennecke: Art Kleinschmidt was the White House Deputy Drug Czar under Trump. How Art got to the White House is quite unconventional, just like everything else in the Trump administration. In recovery himself, he never expected his path to take him to D.C. We talk about that and what he thinks the real solutions are to end the overdose crisis, in our conversation for this episode of Grieving Out Loud.

[00:00:42] Art Kleinschmidt: you have to do the demand side and the supply side. I was a licensed therapist and that's all I was really gonna do until I was, picked to go into the federal government, 

 (MUSIC Break) 

[00:00:51] Angela Kennecke: Art is joining me from Washington DC where he served as Deputy Drug Czar under the Trump administration, and that sounds like a very interesting job and an interesting time because Trump did declare the opioid crisis as a national public health emergency, which it is and continues to be. How did you happen to end up in that job?

 thank you for having me on your show. It's a great honor. I look at it as I got pretty lucky. I, something I never thought I would ever do. I have a long alcohol and drug use history myself. and then after I got sober, I ended up becoming a licensed clinician working in rehabs. and I was doing that for like 15 years. And then, a friend of my wife's, was appointed by Trump, and he became an assistant to the president. And then President Trump was making, this is very early on, was making, you know, a. Addiction, big chunk of his, platform that he was running on.

[00:01:42] Art Kleinschmidt: And so, I was coaching my friend up on a number of these, addiction issues related to fentanyl and everything else. and then he wanted my resume and one thing led to another, I end up, in the administration. So I was working. At a treatment center for, really severe substance use disorders, dual diagnosed, type of clients, multiple overdoses and that sort of a thing.

And then we just packed up the, uh, car and then I came on out to DC it's kind of funny because he wanted, my resume. So I sent it, and I didn't think anything of it. And then I got an email from the White House and I thought it was junk and I was gonna delete it.

And then my wife said, No, no, no, that's them. And that's why I called the number. And sure enough I was going, 

[00:02:20] Angela Kennecke: You're gonna delete it. That's awesome. Oh, you know, and President Trump obviously was known for doing things in unconventional ways, whether you like it or not, whatever your opinion may be. 

[00:02:30] Art Kleinschmidt: Well probably unconventional. I, I had nothing to compare it to, so I never would've thought none of my life was like, I was working towards this end of being in , the White House. I was one of these guys that had like, Real world experience.

So I was kind of plucked from, like , flyover country. I, I was living in a cool area of the Rocky Mountains, but I never would've thought that I would end up working where I was working. I started at SAMSA, the Substance Abuse Mental Health Service Administration, and then I got, detailed to the Domestic Policy Council, which is the West Wing policy shop.

And then from there I got promoted to deputy director.

[00:03:04] Angela Kennecke: So when you were a deputy director, What do you think were some of the best things that were done to try to make a dent in this horrible overdose epidemic 

[00:03:16] Art Kleinschmidt: If you look at it, we had a 4% decrease in overdoses. And I think it was around the 2019 time era, that we actually saw a dip in the overdoses. And then when covid and everything it's just skyrocketing ever since. 

 but I would say one of the best things we did, if you really wanna get that, Worked on both the demand and the supply side. Because when you look at drug addiction, you can't just deal with just the supply, you gotta actually put the treatment apparatus in place, doing the interventions, working with the people who are suffering with the disease.

But at the same time, you do have to control the flow of drugs into the, community. So we, we, we took it as a double pronged approach. 

[00:03:53] Angela Kennecke: In fact, well, the US attorney in 2019 here in my local area said to me, he thought all of my advocacy and my speaking out about what happened to my daughter, because I have a very public platform, helped lower numbers here in 2019.

Maybe it did, I don't know. But then they shot back up again. 

[00:04:10] Art Kleinschmidt: Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, the covid Lockdowns is really sort of what actually put this of course here. Of course. And now I, you know, I'm not, I'm just gonna say, I mean the border's wide open and fentanyl's just coming across.

[00:04:21] Angela Kennecke: I have a question about that though. Okay. Isn't a lot of the fentanyl coming in the mail and on planes and on ships, I, I could say all of the above, but most of it's coming in bulk. That they're, a lot of it, they're kind of mulling across the border. How, how it works. When you said the mail, Okay.

[00:04:35] Art Kleinschmidt: I was, when I was working in, treatment, I worked with a lot of young people, a lot of severe substance use disorders. and I, I would have people in my caseload, a lot of 'em, like your daughter's age. And someone could be pretty severe. And they were very savvy about getting drugs online, on the dark web.

They would be in my office and they would show me how they could download, tour and do all these things, you know? 

 If I got a caseload of say, five to seven, it was getting to the point to where I would have at least two guys. Main drug supplier, was the internet, was the dark web, and then most of those guys who were getting the drugs out the dark, dark web were then turning around and selling the products that they were getting.

So what happened after that? I, I know the government stepped in and did a lot to shut down the dark web, but, the problem actually sort of metastasized from there, almost from like a bigger profit motive instead of just shipping that via the mail.

A lot of what you're seeing is China, and everybody knows this now, but they're taking the precursors and putting them on like big ocean liners. They're going to the northern part of Mexico where it's almost like a total like narco state, with the cartels up there. So they're mixing it in northern Mexico and then it's coming across the border.

[00:05:46] Angela Kennecke: And it's also coming across the border in various ways too. Right? Not just on trucks. 

[00:05:51] Art Kleinschmidt: No, not just on trucks. 

[00:05:53] Angela Kennecke: Without the demand, though, we wouldn't have this. I, I think of two things. Part of it seems like chemical warfare on Americans. all of this fentanyl that's out there, and the other part is the demand for it, so I think it's very hard to solve this entire problem with law enforcement. How do you stop all this from happening? , 

[00:06:17] Art Kleinschmidt: I go with a two-prong sort of approach. You can't allow the supply just to keep coming into the country. You gotta at least try to dovetail it, or, or sort of, curtail it, sort of the best you could.

You know, we did something similar with qualudes back when I was sort of using too. they became sort of epidemic, early in the, in the seventies and early eighties. And I remember we did, were able to kind of stem that tide back then I was using back then. So I, I knew all about it, but we were able to sort of stem the tide back then, to where basically that drug's almost nonexistent today.

 and the way that I always kinda look at it is when I have a client on my caseload for whatever the reason is but the American sort of culture is very consumerish. we're very much big sort of consumers of this, ingredient. So if you're making, if you're a cartel, the marketplace that you really want is you want to get into America.

[00:07:06] Art Kleinschmidt: But I, I agree with you. You have to treat,you have to do the demand side, I'd say, and the supply side. I mean, I was a licensed therapist and that's all I was really gonna do until I was, picked to go into the federal government, 

[00:07:18] Angela Kennecke: That just leads me into my question about you working as a licensed therapist. How you got to that point? Because I, I think you started out as an accountant.

[00:07:27] Art Kleinschmidt: Yeah. I was a cpa,for a while. Wasn't sober as a cpa. 

[00:07:31] Angela Kennecke: When did your drug use start or your alcohol? Alcohol and drugs. 

[00:07:34] Art Kleinschmidt: Well, when did it start? I probably drinking before. Maybe back in the sevenths and eighth grade. I was using for a long time and then, you know, I Catholic schools and I ended up, like bailing eighth grade and they, I, I wasn't able to graduate.

I don't know if I passed any classes. They made me go to summer school and then I was able to get into, after summer school, get into ninth grade. then I went to a pretty strict Catholic school. That's when I started smoking weed and I had a teacher that wouldn't let me into, the classroom anymore.

so I would, so I had like a couple off periods and then I would be running around, I would leave campus and then run around New Orleans a little bit. I would, steal candy and go sell it and then, you know, use the money to buy weed, stuff like that.

[00:08:15] Angela Kennecke: Do you remember what it was or why you did it? Or was it just something that you did, you know, was there a reason? I, I think I was sort of rebellious in nature. First I liked it. It kind of gave me excitement. But then, then, it overtook me, now I, I realize, you know, I had, shame and stuff like that, but I, I look at people and they all have different Core issues 

it is something inside of a person that maybe they're looking to be filled or, um, Did you find any common core themes in yourself? And then I know you went into recovery, went on to school, became a therapist, but in yourself and in your patients, are there principles or core things that they share that you all share? Share? 

[00:08:55] Art Kleinschmidt: Yeah, that's a good question. yes. I think sometimes, like when you look at sort of the government, they put too much emphasis on drug of choice. and in reality, somebody who's using used 10 different substances, what they're really relating to is their feelings.

The emotionality of it. and it, you look at it sometimes, I think shame is one of the biggest ones. And, but shame isn't just low self-esteem. It's more of a belief that I'm sort of defective, there's something wrong with me. And if I could just anesthetize that feeling, then that could go away but that over generalizes it because then you start getting into a lot of different stuff , like the trauma that happens prior to addiction, and then you got the trauma that occurs.

Cause an addictive lifestyle actually comes with a lot of, consequences with it. So they're incurring trauma along the way. So they would have like, say, a negative experience. Well, they'll use that to define themselves negatively. so a lot of people also sort of engage into a lot of like negative self-talk, that actually makes it more, apt for them to kind of want to use drugs and alcohol as well.

 A lot of, it's kind of like a self medicating type of a aspect of it. So like when you're in group, they're actually sharing on like a cathartic level more so than based on the drug or choice. 

[00:10:06] Angela Kennecke: The drug itself doesn't matter. It's the reason for using the drug.

[00:10:09] Art Kleinschmidt: Yeah. 

A lot. And a lot of times you're treating the disease of addiction, you're treating the emotionality of it. They have a biocycle social type of element to the disease, 

[00:10:19] Angela Kennecke: biological, psychological, and social.

[00:10:23] Art Kleinschmidt: Yeah. 

[00:10:23] Angela Kennecke: I, I wondered also then what you have found to be the best treatment for substance use disorder. I know there no two addictions are the same, right? So everyone's a little bit different. What maybe work for one person might not necessarily work for another.

[00:10:39] Art Kleinschmidt: What worked for you? that's, that's a great question. I, I, I didn't, get sober till I was 36, so I crashed out pretty hard there. they had the New Orleans pill mills and everything. I could kind of go into all that as well. But,By the time I got 36, I had done probably all the drugs that they were at the time that they were around.

And I, the only thing I didn't know was what maybe I could be capable of if I didn't, sort of handicap myself for drugs and alcohol. So I, I did have a willingness to give it, recovery a shot. It was actually hard for me, and I didn't think that I would actually stay sober. And I did some things that actually sort of helped me, cuz I was pretty aimless in my early part of recovery.

I would get fired from jobs, I got fired from, I don't know how many different jobs. just because I brought all my bad work habits, with me. It just, I just wasn't getting high anymore. 

[00:11:26] Angela Kennecke: Even though you weren't using, you were still acting. As if, 

[00:11:29] Art Kleinschmidt: Right. Right. I was like two years sort of wandering the wilderness. I was in one, sober house, got booted, out of there. Then I had to live in like a, a Fleabag crack motel for about two weeks. and for some reason I, I stayed sober even though we had pretty bad environment.

[00:11:45] Angela Kennecke: Yeah. I'm shocked you would actually be able to resist. 

[00:11:48] Art Kleinschmidt: Right. And then I got myself in, I was lucky enough to get myself into an Oxford house. I got sober up in St. Paul, Minnesota, where they have a strong recovery.

[00:11:56] Angela Kennecke: They do work very strong. 

[00:11:58] Art Kleinschmidt: Oh, you're gonna ask me like, the number one thing was with me. It was almost like having the other people sort of around .

[00:12:04] Angela Kennecke: Connection they always say is the solution to addiction. it's a huge solution, 

I wanna ask you next about prevention, because I was at a conference in DC. And for the first time, I think ever three former drug czars were on stage talking about all these prevention programs that they are supporting.

Most of them targeted to middle and high school age kids. one of the drug czars was talking about no use ever, you know, until age 21. and I just think with the fentanyl out there and with pills on Snapchat and what kids are exposed to now, it's such a frightening time. . And so how do we prevent people from ever picking up that joint or trying that pill in the first place?

[00:12:47] Art Kleinschmidt: That's kind of really, sort of hard to do. but if you're gonna do a prevention program, I know I don't mean to be vague, but you had to kind of touch on at least address some of these four issues that are actually exist that make actually developing, an addictive substance use disorder more likely.

So if they're a, a child with certain traumas that are going on in the house, certain sort of abuses, if you could work on in something, doing something like that to address those type of core issues would make it less attractive. To somebody to actually sort of pick up. When you look at the disease of addiction, they have a genetic component to it that makes somebody very susceptible and it has an environmental component right now.

Some people are brought up in a household or an environment where they actually have both a genetic and an environmental component to it. But, you know, tho those sorts of things, if you could kinda look at addressing some of the. Core issues, 

you would have a better chance now you could do the psycho education, but for somebody who has a leaning for that, you know, that may or may not be all that effective. When you were talking about the messaging that you did,

 I actually think that's effective. bringing that to light I think is very effective. Regardless of what you think, President Trump,. We actually broadcasted that, you know, , kind of had the public actually seen addictive crisis actually hearing about it.

And I think that actually becomes more persuasive than you actually really know, because, that actually kind of gets into somebody's psyche more than I think you realize. It does. 

[00:14:10] Angela Kennecke: You've been talking about this for, so many years and you, you experienced it, you've helped people. Do you think the stigma surrounding addiction has lessened? 

[00:14:21] Art Kleinschmidt: I get, the whole stigma angle and I'm a strong believer in not stigmatizing somebody with disease or sticking somebody, stigmatizing people with a mental illness. I do sometimes worry that as a society, I feel like we're actually destigmatizing what is a self-destructive behavior sometimes. And I think that message is getting a little confused. 

[00:14:42] Angela Kennecke: Right. Cuz we don't wanna promote. dangerous and destructive behaviors in people. But we wanna get people help. Do you think medically assisted treatment, I know we both know Dan Schneider from the, the pharmacist.

Yeah. from your hometown of New Orleans,and he's really big on medically assisted treatment.

Do you think that that is the solution ?

[00:15:00] Art Kleinschmidt: It's a valuable tool, and I wrote a blog on it. I, when you look at medically assisted treatment, I prefer it to have certain structures around it. I, I'm not a big, big advocate of handing it out to somebody, because I feel like you're actually just, increasing their habit and you're not helping 'em.

So if you use it correctly, I think it's an awesome tool to be used. And I know stories cause I. Many clients on my caseload with a history of abusing the mood altering components of MAT.

[00:15:26] Angela Kennecke: Had clients that abused suboxone. , 

[00:15:29] Art Kleinschmidt: Yes. Yeah. Methadone as well.

 I've been an advocate, for it. I just like it to be used with, with certain sort of constraints around it. 

[00:15:37] Angela Kennecke: So how do you think we do that? How do you think we use it correctly? What needs to be. 

[00:15:42] Art Kleinschmidt: Well, I would like to at least, if you can, depending on which sort of format you, are at, sort of like a me methadone clinic does have structure around it.

Now, if somebody doesn't want to go to the methadone clinic and they're going to a doctor, I, I would prefer, You trying to find some kind of way to do a certain amount of, don't wanna say it just has to be strictly clinical, but I, I prefer some sort of structure around it. 

[00:16:08] Angela Kennecke: If you were well pointed drug czar today, what would you do differently than what's being done right now? How do we end this crisis? How do we stop so many young lives from being lost? 

[00:16:20] Art Kleinschmidt: The New York, city health Department put out a pamphlet. And it's all about how to use fentanyl sort of safely. you could have your buddy with you and you could do sort of small amounts.

That's why I'm talking about the messaging and the destigmatizing. You're not destigmatizing Fentanyl. The way it sort of works is the high doesn't last as long as the other effects of the drugs. So when somebody, if they told to follow the pamphlet, but they have somebody, they could do a little bit of fentanyl, they won't be as high anymore.

But they'll still be under the effects of the drug to where the respiratory, and that will start to shut down. So any other subsequent dose would actually kill somebody. So, what I, what I would like to do is to stop that sort of messaging from going on, when somebody, is using the thing they're gonna latch onto the most is the messaging that says my self-destructive behavior is okay.

So I don't wanna stigmatize people, but I do want to actually put some boundaries around there and assist some people that are stuck. Sort of on the streets of San Francisco, start moving them from point a self destruction into treatment and into independence. So that would be something I would like to do is start moving people from point A to point B sort of into treatment.

[00:17:27] Angela Kennecke: And getting people treatment, even in our prisons here in my state, it doesn't happen. I mean, I just think so much more money needs to be put toward treatment and to make it accessible and, and effective treatment for everybody. I really think it takes government funds. To set up the kind of treatment systems, systems that we need within our medical systems. You know, not necessarily outside of our medical systems.

 I'll agree with you. You need more money, but you also need more people capable. You need the capacity of people to actually use the dollars.

[00:17:59] Angela Kennecke: And qualified practitioners, who are treating people too. You need that. 

[00:18:03] Art Kleinschmidt: Part of sometimes the money gets log jammed with some of it, because you need, facilities you have to kind of build capacity as well. part of it you start running into too, and I'm not being negative here, is.

Actual sort of providers who's gonna do the, the work on the ground to treat the people. And you need to kinda, build out that workforce. And so that's why when I was at O D C P, I did these webinars, but all about trying to build the peer recovery workforce cuz I believe strongly in that. And I, you know, I did peers.

Recovery. I did peer in the,emergency rooms when somebody overdoses. You could have peers in there and I've been to hospital a couple times for overdoses. I mean with somebody who else who would overdose. so I want 'em in there. We did peers in the criminal justice system to get people, coming out, you know, with a offender reentry, but having peers actually work with him to move them.

And give them more, a greater chance for success. And that's really sort of what, what I, I believe in. And it's all about, treatment is not the end. It's the life after treatment and living, you know, the life that you're capable of living.

[00:19:03] Angela Kennecke: You started telling me, you still were late for work. You didn't really change your habits, so to speak, but you weren't using. What was it that that changed? Was it something internal inside that shifted, or what happened? 

[00:19:16] Art Kleinschmidt: It was always kind of sort of hard for me. I think what I, I got a little bit lucky. And I, even though it was like very hard for me, I found, the passion that, like I said, I went back to do counseling and the one thing that I did know, was , I have a 20 something year use history, so I know sort of all the feelings, associated with that.

And I had done, a service work and I, I felt kind of foolish doing it, but every, Tuesday, I would go back to my halfway house. and I would take all the new a admits on a city bus, show 'em where the AA intergroup is, the job fair site, the, this sort of a thing.

So I did that and I spent the whole day with the new guys, once a week. And then I would answer the AA hotline and I did a lot of this out of aimlessness. So I, I kind of clicked in doing those sorts of things and before you know it, I got eight months and I was like, Wow, you know? Then I ended up with a year.

 I even hung out with people who were using at that point in time. but for some reason I didn't. 

[00:20:12] Angela Kennecke: Well, it sounds to me like you found, some purpose in helping others.

 think that's a big part of it. That's why when, you know, when I say treatment center criteria for our thing is we want, we really want to build those soft skills for people. You How to show up on time, how to be accountable. 

[00:20:26] Art Kleinschmidt: But I, I'm a big advocate for employment or education opportunities to kind of find your niche as you're kind of moving into life. 

[00:20:33] Angela Kennecke: And part of the problem is if you do have a long history of addiction, you may or probably most likely have felonies on your. You can't get a job and you can't get housing, you can't get all these things because the felony, 

[00:20:47] Art Kleinschmidt: Well, all those things are tough. They're obstacles.You gotta build the thing back. And then that's why I really believe, in a lot of recovery supports that sort of thing. The kind of keep people moving along. You're gonna have all kinds of difficulties trying to get back into the workforce. a lot of things are, are gonna be that way. that's why I was a big advocate. I wouldn't just discharge 'em. But then if you can't find a place to live, you could definitely go into an Oxford house.

And then from there kind of work yourself up that way. And sometimes you have to coach 'em along. That's a lot of it. Like post-treatment is coaching as much as therapy, but you know, you're gonna hit roadblocks.

I want you to kind of have the gumption to actually start working through these. You're not gonna give up, you're gonna keep trying. You're gonna keep doing it. So even if with felonies on your record, you know, I still want you to go out there and try and get a job. So, it's not okay to, not, not actually work for it. And that's really what I try to encourage people to do. 

[00:21:40] Angela Kennecke: So what is next for you? 

 I'm really kind of putting this foundation together and I got another other projects that I'm definitely active in.

[00:21:48] Angela Kennecke: I really appreciate you joining me for this episode of Grieving Out Loud. I just think your story is so fascinating going from 20 years of addiction, losing jobs, getting into recovery, becoming, an addiction counselor yourself, getting your PhD, going to DC.

 thank you for having me on. And I, you know, I, like I said, I, I really, really appreciate your courage and, but you had, Been working through, in your life and then turning around and making something super concrete out of it.

[00:22:14] Art Kleinschmidt: I, you know, super productive, like 230 people, scholarships I think is just really awesome. That's, yeah, 

[00:22:20] Angela Kennecke: Emily's Hope and just for our audience may not know our listeners. Emily's Hope has helped put 233 people through treatment with Emily's Hope treatment scholarship. So we, are proud of that. We wanna continue to do that too.

[00:22:31] Art Kleinschmidt: Yeah. Keep doing that.

[00:22:32] Angela Kennecke: I appreciate it. Good luck with all of your endeavors too. And thank you for what you're doing. 

[00:22:37] Angela Kennecke: Thank you for joining me for Grieving Out Loud. You can listen to more episodes of this podcast and read my blogs on our website, Emily's Hope dot charity. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage.