[00:00:01] Angela Kennecke: I'm Angela Kennecke your host of Grieving Out Loud, and the founder of Emily's Hope, a charity. I started in my daughter's name after she died of fentanyl poisoning. Mind altering substances, introduced to the developing brain, set kids up for substance use disorders and mental health issues. A Pennsylvania mom had no way of knowing what her middle school son was experimenting with.

[00:00:28] Brenda Schivito: unbeknownst to us, Nicholas would get on his bike and ride his bike to a local convenience store, and he was able to actually purchase spice. 

[00:00:40] Angela Kennecke: Spice is synthetic marijuana, and that's how it started for Nick Schivito, who lost his battle with addiction at age 22.

I found Nick unresponsive on the bathroom floor and we lost Nick on January 20th, 2018. The most devastating day. My big push is the narrative is that our children are being murdered. And they're being poisoned, and what are we gonna do about it? I mean, scream from the high heavens that this is happening 

[00:01:11] Angela Kennecke: Nick's mother, Brenda joins me to share Nick's story, her family's heartbreak, and what she is doing now to try to save lives. 

[00:01:22] Angela Kennecke: Brenda, welcome to the podcast. I am terribly sorry that we're connecting and meeting under these circumstances where we both lost children to fentanyl poisoning the very same year. We're kind of in the same timeframe of this grief journey, but I really appreciate your willingness to share Nick's story, your son's story.

[00:01:42] Brenda Schivito: Angela, thank you so much for inviting me to be on your show. I'm, I'm so honored, so sorry for the loss of your beloved Emily. I thank you for all the good works that you're doing, with these podcasts and with your, your daughter's foundation, so kudos to you as well.

[00:01:56] Angela Kennecke: Let's talk a little bit about Nick. Nick was 22, Emily was 21, so they were about the same age. And he's your second son, right? So he is your baby. 

[00:02:06] Brenda Schivito: Yes. Yes. 

[00:02:07] Angela Kennecke: Tell, tell me about Nick. 

Nick was a character. Nick was fun, fun, loving. He was funny. He had a great, a great personality, a big personality.

[00:02:18] Brenda Schivito: When Nick walked into the room, he put everybody at ease. He made everybody feel comfortable he was like all of our. He was a good kid, always willing to help others, did a lot of acts of kindness for different people and was a really warmhearted kid. 

[00:02:36] Angela Kennecke: And he was really good at karate.

[00:02:38] Brenda Schivito: Yes, he was good at karate. He did achieve his black belt and karate and he loved to play basketball and in the driveway. Yeah, he was not that tall. So he kind of emulated Alan Iverson from the Philly 76 ERs. He played tennis from a youngster all the way through high school and beyond. I called him the lethal lefty. Like, so many of our kids, you know, plain old fashioned kid, just looking to have fun. 

[00:03:02] Angela Kennecke: When did the substance use start for Nick? Was he in high school? 

[00:03:08] Brenda Schivito: I think it was earlier than high school. Maybe just before high school, 

unbeknownst to us, Nicholas would get on his bike and ride his bike to a local convenience store, and he was able to actually purchase spice. 

If you know what spice is, it's marijuana laced with very harmful chemicals, which could cause psychosis and. We believe that's exactly what happened to Nick in the beginning. 

[00:03:36] Angela Kennecke: He was buying Spice from the convenience store itself where they were selling it? 

[00:03:40] Brenda Schivito: Yes, 

[00:03:41] Angela Kennecke: because it was legal at the time. 

[00:03:42] Brenda Schivito: I really don't know the status of it now. I mean everything, you know,, as you know, over the internet, it's the wild west.

But at that point, he was legally buying it inside the convenience store. 

[00:03:52] Angela Kennecke: And you think he was maybe in middle? school 

[00:03:55] Brenda Schivito: I'd say middle school, end of middle school, beginning of high school. 

[00:03:59] Angela Kennecke: It's so devastating because you think about how undeveloped his brain was at that point and how I'm sure these chemicals affected his mental health, don't you think?

[00:04:08] Brenda Schivito: Absolutely. I think Nicholas was predisposed with bipolar disorder. We're in this web and we don't know what's going on and what it is. All these borderline personality disorder, you know, all these different labels. Oh he's you know, borderline, ADD and 

[00:04:26] Angela Kennecke: I heard all that with Emily too. You know, when the, when the real trouble started in high school and taking her to counselor after counselor I heard all those things thrown out and I don't really know. 

[00:04:35] Brenda Schivito: Right. It was very chaotic and I don't think really bipolar disorder really surfaces until later on, maybe 15 or 16. But as you know, they, they intertwine with each other and many times, unfortunately, they do go hand in hand. It was just really a difficult, difficult time for. us 

[00:04:54] Angela Kennecke: I had never heard bipolar with Emily, but I had heard counselors throw out, you know, borderline personality. I had heard ADHD and I, I don't know, to this day, I don't know. And I think she was trying to self-diagnose herself as a 20 year old with borderline personality disorder, but I think it was the drug use starting at a young age. We're like talking about the chicken and the egg, right? I mean, are they using the substances because they're trying to self-medicate or do the substances cause these problems in the brain? I tend to believe with her, Maybe the latter. I mean, she was always, always kinda a high needs kid, you know? And she was definitely addicted to sugar , I mean, definitely carbs and sugar when she was younger. And that was really hard for me. I was trying to get her not to eat those things. 

Right.

But it's so interesting to me, I think all of our kids do have some of these similarities, especially when they start use so young. And I also. We feel like bad parents because this happened because we couldn't control our minor child or we couldn't, keep tabs on them every second of the day. You let 'em go to a friend's house, you don't know what they're doing, you know? so I think there's so much of that wrapped up in all of this, don't you? 

[00:06:02] Brenda Schivito: Oh, absolutely. And that goes along with. Like you said, What did I do wrong? What should I have done better? And then I think also, you know, that's out there, like in the community, it's like, oh well, like who was, who was Nick hanging out with? And who was he being led around by? And you know, like to your point, how, how do you control where your children are going except for following them around, putting a tracker on them 24 7 . 

[00:06:27] Angela Kennecke: And we did track Emily, you know, she had a, a boyfriend who was using and we didn't approve. They would say they were gonna be somewhere and they weren't. And we did, We, we stalked that child. I, and I don't think it did any good. I just think like all of these efforts and all this tough love and all this stuff we're told to do. 

[00:06:44] Brenda Schivito: Right. 

[00:06:44] Angela Kennecke: And I mean, you're a good mom. I was a good mom. I cared so much about my child and put so much effort, , into trying to make sure that she realized her. dreams and then this happens, 

[00:06:55] Brenda Schivito: Like how, how do you wrap your head around that? And we spend so much time, like you say, fostering all this love and guidance and you know, teaching them, come on, teaching them right for wrong from the time they were born and they were little and teaching them morals and values and right from wrong and good, from bad. I have another child. I have a 29 year old son. Wasn't affected this way at all. So as far as the moral failing or the moral compass of the child, or as a parent? Honestly, Angela, I put my head on the pillow at night and I don't blame myself. 

[00:07:29] Angela Kennecke: I love to hear that. I actually feel the same way. I think it took me a while to get there. But I do realize I have other children that are doing great. And so if it was me as a parent, they should all be doing the same thing. Right? Yeah. And I think also it's the conscientious parent who worries about that because truly the awful parent who doesn't care, who isn't nurturing , doesn't care, right?

Right. They're not beating themselves up wondering if it was them or what they could have done differently. They're simply not. Right. And so just the fact that we have those thoughts and. Kind of went there In our minds. 

And the sleepless nights and the wonderings and the where are they? And 

Yes. At what point did you kind of learn he's using, at some point it becomes obvious, like we were planning intervention for Emily, although I didn't know to the extent of the substances she was using, but at what point did you learn that this is what you were dealing with?

 When he went psychotic from the spice he had to go to like a mental facility. He was underage. And he was, admitted. And they could not figure out what was wrong with him? And to your point, we had an appointment with an addiction psychiatrist, and actually she was the one who suggested this could be spice.

And you know what happened? It came in the mail. We had gotten some. In the mail, it actually looked like a little spice bottle of like oregeno, something you'd buy in the grocery store. And I was like, what is this? What the heck is this? And our, the psychiatrist said, That's what I've been talking about. So again, with that discovery, you try your best to navigate this without telling your whole neighborhood and your network of friends that this is what you're going through.

Because who's gonna understand if you don't understand as a parent, how do you pull people into this web, it was very, very difficult to navigate through it and what to do next. And as you know, it's a family disease. But I don't know that my family was all on board. The treatment and the interventions, 

Well, and for me, like as I tried more and more things as Emily was a teenager, I'm in the public eye so I'd be going to juvenile court and here I am and everybody knows me, you know, And I felt so judged and I didn't really know, I didn't know what to do next. And I felt like everything I tried didn't help 

[00:09:53] Brenda Schivito: Oh yeah. That must have been very difficult. For you in that situation? . 

[00:09:58] Angela Kennecke: So, this was early high school and then as time went by.

What happened with Nick? 

[00:10:04] Brenda Schivito: He had had a period where things were good and things were, you know, okay with him. I mean, I'm sure he was smoking pot, I'm sure he. You know, going to a party where there was alcohol and it was, again, it was just a very difficult time for our family to navigate through it.

 He was in and out of about eight rehab facilities. He was able to, graduate high school, which, you know, An accomplishment, . 

[00:10:36] Angela Kennecke: Well, I know, and I felt like I had really lowered the bar. Like I just wanted to get Emily graduated, not pregnant. Those were my two things. And graduated. 

[00:10:44] Brenda Schivito: Right. 

[00:10:44] Angela Kennecke: Because of all of the crazy stuff she was doing and all this rebelling, and I mean, it was just so. None of it made any sense to me. And I, at one point I was thinking my child would go to some university in New York. You know, I was thinking all these amazing things cuz she, she was amazing and she was, you know, gifted intellectually.

And here I had lowered the bar to graduating high school. 

[00:11:05] Brenda Schivito: And Nicholas was not college bound. You know, he talked about going to college. 

I, I mean, He wanted to go away to a college, but I knew that with what we were dealing with, the highs and the lows and the ups and the downs and what was going on, that, that was not a good thing. So I had challenged Nicholas to go to community. You really want, If you're really going to college for an academic experience and that's what you really wanna do, then prove it from home for this semester.

Oh, you think I'm a loser, that I can't do it? I mean all this turmoil. And I said, Well, You're in a different situation. You know, you got outta high school on the skinnier teeth, now prove yourself. And that was not to be, so he did not pursue that. 

[00:11:47] Angela Kennecke: What did he do after high school then?

[00:11:49] Brenda Schivito: He worked with my husband and my husband's business,and then again, I do think that the bipolar really impinged upon him where. Go to the the highs of the highs and then would plummet down to the lows of the lows. And you can't really explain the behaviors because people won't believe you.

I mean, you can't make this stuff up, but unless people walk the same shoes that you walk in, Angela, I don't think they can have an understanding or an appreciation of some of the things that we went through with our kids. 

[00:12:22] Angela Kennecke: And you know, that's one of the reasons why I do what I do, and I'm sure you as well, all your advocacy. I don't want people to know. No. You know, I just, even my worst enemy, I don't want them to experience what you and I have experienced. I want to change this. I wanna educate people. I wanna get people help. I just, and I don't wanna see another family lose a child in this way. It is so brutal. 

[00:12:44] Brenda Schivito: But we are, aren't we?

[00:12:45] Angela Kennecke: Every day. I mean, the number's up to 299 a day nationwide. When I, it started four years ago when our children died, it. 1 72 a day, if I'm not mistaken, or 1 92, 1 72 or 1 92. And right now we're at almost 300. So there's more of us out there every single day. More people beating themselves up, more people I, And I always say it was like standing in front of a freight train , like putting up my arms, trying to stop it, and that train just ran me over. I have another friend who likens it to a tornado being caught up when your child's addiction tornado and then just being like, When they die. And I think, how many of us do there have to be before we actually do something in this country?

[00:13:28] Brenda Schivito: I know, I get it. And you know what? It was only recently that I changed my narrative to like an overdo, accidental overdose to, My son was murdered, and more parents are boldly standing up and saying this about their children and loved ones in general.

I just got a call the other day that some kid went off to college. Him and his buddy went and got some cocaine. Recreational use wasn't an addiction. Overdose, I mean, murder, you know, it's like, Right. Have to start changing. I mean, I have recently started changing the narrative to. 

He was murder. 

[00:14:01] Angela Kennecke: Right. I call it fentanyl poisoning.

Drug-induced homicide. Right. And so after he graduated from college, he's working for your husband? 

[00:14:08] Brenda Schivito: As long as he was working and doing what he was supposed to, it was fine.

But again, this is where I think the highs and lows of the bipolar just kept creeping in. I think at one point my husband said he was at work and he was high. Falling asleep in equipment. And My husband works in heavy equipment with asphalt concrete.

 And he would be sleeping in the, in the equipment or he would be acting erratically. And one thing about Nick, I will say, like, to your point, I, I love to remember and, and recount all the fun stories about our kids. But you know, he just would do things that. would embarrass my husband at his workplace, and my husband couldn't have that in his place of work. And it was dangerous and it was tumultuous times and at one point, I had asked, Leave Nicholas to leave my house, it was the hardest thing, Angela, that I have to do in my life was throw my diseased child out of our home.

Now you, you know, I think when I hear this from the professionals, Oh, you, you have to exercise tough love. You have to tell your child they have to leave your house and unless they're gonna go get help, and he was wreaking havoc in our family, 

well, you know how they are. They're as, when they're in active addiction, they're manipulative, you know, they get what they want. They lie. Unfortunately, all those ugly characteristics surface.

[00:15:33] Angela Kennecke: Because the substance takes over the brain and for sure that, that becomes the most important thing. And they will do whatever it takes. 

[00:15:39] Brenda Schivito: Yes. He would take his paycheck, a little couple paychecks. He had stubs and he would go borrow from any creditor that would give him money, jumped in his car, and off to California. He went, so he was in California for a while, staying with somebody, and I guess that individual didn't care for what was happening with his active addiction, Asked him to leave. And honestly, I think my son was living out of his car for about three months in California.

[00:16:04] Angela Kennecke: What was he using at the time? Do you know? 

[00:16:06] Brenda Schivito: Anything? Everything. Something out there called like TAR or something. 

[00:16:11] Angela Kennecke: Oh, black tar Heroin Maybe. 

[00:16:12] Brenda Schivito: Black tar Heroin. Maybe I don't even know. It was the, I think it was one of the scariest, one of the scariest times that we went through with him was not knowing where he was, what he was doing, and I think he was in a. Bipolar state, to be honest. Either that I think he was, I think he had gone again through one of the highs and you know, at some point he did come home and I told him he couldn't stay. He had to go into, into rehab, went into a rehab, called his aunt, she went and picked him up. I mean, it was just crazy. And he ended up in a local facility. He didn't wanna stay there . And, um, went to a recovery house that didn't work out so well. And of course, you know, like we all do and we cave and you wanna call it enabling because you're trying and you're doing whatever you can, short of taking the disease yourself, to save your kid. He came home and he got a job with ups. It was Christmas time.

 He was home doing what he was supposed to do. He was going to meetings and whatnot. January, the job evaporated. And, from the highs to the highs, he went into the lowest of lows. And, the night of, of January 19th, went to bed, he said, Mom, I love you. I said, Nick, I love you too. I think he was struggling and, he went to his room and. He didn't make it. 

I found Nick unresponsive on the bathroom floor 

the next morning 

and we lost Nick on January 20th, 2018. The most devastating day of my life. 

[00:17:50] Angela Kennecke: And I think also when that kind of trauma, cuz I feel that way, like rushing to where my daughter was found in this apartment, in this bedroom and getting there and seeing her dead body and or seeing the emergency workers work on her and that, you know, and I laid with her for an hour or so before they came and took her away.

Those flashbacks. I think while it's not every day now, like it was the first couple of years. I just think that trauma to your brain, losing a child in that way mm-hmm. suddenly, unexpectedly. Did you ever think that he was going to die from this? 

[00:18:26] Brenda Schivito: No. 

[00:18:27] Angela Kennecke: No, and I didn't either. No , my conscious brain did not think, I did not think she was going to die.

[00:18:33] Brenda Schivito: I, I think we thought, , he would snap out of this. 

[00:18:35] Angela Kennecke: Everyone tells you too. Oh, I had a cousin, I had a brother. I had somebody, yeah. It was a different world because fentanyl wasn't it in everything. So yeah, maybe people did struggle with addiction for a few years, or maybe they had the wild days and then they just quit one day.

[00:18:51] Brenda Schivito: Right. 

[00:18:51] Angela Kennecke: No one can afford to do any of that and that's the message. I think if we could just get that message out to every kid out there. I think we will have accomplished something in our kids' names.

[00:19:00] Brenda Schivito: I agree with you. I totally agree with you, with the Narcan, like again, 

my big push is the narrative is that our children are being murdered.

And they're being poisoned, and what are we gonna do about it? I mean, scream from the high heavens that this is happening .

[00:19:15] Angela Kennecke: How did you cope after his death? I..

[00:19:17] Brenda Schivito: Well, I was very fortunate. Several months after we lost Nick, I knew, first of all, I had to do something and it wasn't gonna be a park bench with his name on it.

No disrespect to that, but, 

[00:19:29] Angela Kennecke: Well, that's fine. I think that's fine if that's what you wanna do, but some of us do feel driven to do more. 

[00:19:34] Brenda Schivito: Called to do something more because of, of the loss of Nick, not only to honor Nick's name, but to pay it forward in his name and to help others like Nick always wanted to do.

Like he couldn't help himself with the disease, but if he could help someone else, I really think that that was what drove me and motivated me to move forward. I was very fortunate to find a grief support group that addressed losing a child to a 

substance use.

[00:20:07] Angela Kennecke: And I think you were lucky to find that. I don't think there was anything like that in my area. Maybe I should start one. But anyway, I just think that you're in the East Coast and I think it came to the east coast first, and we've seen increases right now, I think overdose.

Overdose, I'm putting that in air quotes. Deaths are up 30% in my state, from a year prior. I mean, I'm in the Midwest and it makes its way from the coast to the Midwest 

[00:20:31] Brenda Schivito: I, I have befriended the gal who started this group and she had lost a child to, substance use and she started this group with a professional facilitator and it specifically deals with parents who've lost a child to, to overdose. And as you. There's no tragedy like that of a child, but there's different dynamics of that surrounding substance as we know. It's the grief before the grief, you know, you grieve them. You're afraid, You're worried, you're scared. You're up at night not knowing. It's not your child any longer. 

[00:21:04] Angela Kennecke: I remember standing in my daughter's room and crying, thinking my daughter is dead. I don't have her anymore. Like who she was. When she was still alive. I felt like I've. My daughter, where is she? What happened to her? It was like she was hijacked, you know, by substances and other mental health issues possibly. Yeah, that total loss before loss, like you lose all your, all your hopes. Like our bar is lowered to graduating from high school. certainly are not the hopes and dreams of any parent, has for their child. So you lose all that. 

[00:21:33] Brenda Schivito: You do, but you know what? You, Hold on, you have found hope in what you are doing, and I have found hope with starting a nonprofit, cuz I felt responsible to our community. To our children of our community, Nick's friends and beyond.

[00:21:48] Angela Kennecke: And, so I founded Angels Against Addiction in June of 2018. so what has Angels Against Addiction been doing?

[00:21:57] Brenda Schivito: We, start out by having a tennis, slash dinner, silent auction fundraiser in the fall, that same year. And we had our local,district attorney come in and talk about what was going on in Chester County where we live and raised awareness to the disease. And from those funds. We have been able to scholarship men and women who are coming out of 28 day recovery, programs, inpatient programs, and transitioning them into, recovery houses in the area.

So we give them like two weeks of scholarship money to get on their feet and. In addition to that, we help the recovery houses with some of their needs. Like they need new mattresses or they need new bedding or towels and linens. And then more recently, we've just started and I'm really excited about it. We're starting a educational scholarship program. So if somebody in recovery wants to go back to trade school or finish a two year college and maybe a community degree, or they wanna be a hairdresser or a barber, you know, plumbing or whatever, we, are helping to make that happen for them.

[00:23:09] Angela Kennecke: . It sounds to me like you're giving other people hope. People who have maybe been robbed of whatever hope they have by addiction and society, you know, who really makes it difficult for people to, to come back.

[00:23:22] Brenda Schivito: And my husband has contributed and participates. He doesn't stigmatize them or holds that against them and gives them the opportunity to, get back in the workforce.

[00:23:31] Angela Kennecke: That's great. We have, a man who owns a drywall company who's a great supporter of Emily's Hope, and he suffered from addiction himself and now employs people. And also if his employees have struggled with this substance use disorder, he gets them help and he doesn't hold it against him and he gives him the time off. And I just wish every employer would look at it that way. 

[00:23:50] Brenda Schivito: But we're making strides and you know, you're using your voice, you came out of the dark, and you're into the light and you're, you're using your voice and your position to be very vocal about this. And I, I do the same thing in my community. I have a little TV show 

[00:24:05] Angela Kennecke: I saw that, What's it called again? Your show.

[00:24:07] Brenda Schivito: You are not alone. 

[00:24:08] Angela Kennecke: You are not alone. And I saw you had Brandon Novak on your show. He was on my podcast. I actually met him in LA at a opioid summit, for teenagers.

Oh, so you have this show and we'll put a link to that. on YouTube, right? one thing I wanted to ask you was, what helped you most now with your grief or with the loss of your son? I know sometimes it just hits me almost once a day. At least you know that she's not here. And, it could be a struggle. 

[00:24:34] Brenda Schivito: Yeah. A day to day basis. Of course. I think of Nick all the time, like every day, of course. and then you get that tidal wave of grief that comes and you let it come and you grieve it and you then it ebbs and flows.

But I think honestly, the torture life that my son. I don't think any child should have to go through. I think that in my heart of hearts, the, the torture is one that I'd never want for anybody. And I think that I, I, I find that I can let it go because I say he's free now. That gets a little spiritually heavy for some people, but I feel like he's living right in my heart.

He's always here and he's always with me. always all the time. So he motivates me that way. And I think for the grief part, it's that he's free. He's free from the chains of addiction that bound him and he's able to do wonderful things, helping other people from another place. It's tough, but it does bring me comfort.

It really does. Angela, 

[00:25:45] Angela Kennecke: I love how you've reframed that rather than thinking, I don't have him, he's not here. You've reframed that to see it in different way, which I think, and I feel like Emily is in my heart too. I feel like she's a part of me. And I just appreciate everything that you're doing and I think that our paths with the similar work we're doing, I'm sure paths will cross again, don't you think? 

[00:26:07] Brenda Schivito: Absolutely. Absolutely. Kindred spirits, right? It's no, And there are no coincidences in this life, and I think you may have chance meetings, but they're all, I think chance meetings provide this with wonderful benefits and things to connect. I mean, here you are. In South Dakota and here I am in Pennsylvania and it's just, how does that happen? But it's, it's meant to be, and we're on the same path 

[00:26:33] Angela Kennecke: And that's where I'm so grateful for technology because you can really be anywhere and connect with people. It's a wonderful thing in that way, well, thank you. Thanks for being on the podcast. 

[00:26:44] Brenda Schivito: Thank you, Angela. I, I greatly appreciate all you're doing and, I'm grateful to have been with you today. 

MUSIC

[00:26:50] Angela Kennecke: Thank you for joining me for Grieving Out Loud. You can listen to more episodes of this podcast and read my blogs on our website, Emily's Hope dot charity. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage.